Snail nix cure?  re: better!!....re: Salt for fungus? (Bob, any obs. re: Java Ferns and snails)<<Most don't eat. B>>    11/24/12
Neale,
The snails are almost finished devouring the plants.  There's too many...it's too out of control.  The plants were expensive and they're almost all gone.
<These are Java Ferns, which are toxic, so few animals eat them. Fish certainly won't, and generally snails and shrimps leave them alone too. So try and identify the snails. Melanoides, Physa, Physella and Planorbis snails will not harm Java ferns or indeed most other healthy plants (Melanoides, whatever their other faults, won't eat *any* healthy plant of any kind, even seedlings). Nerite snails of all kinds are equally safe. About the only truly destructive snails commonly kept or encountered by tropical fishkeepers are the Apple Snails and their relatives: Pomacea spp. and Marisa cornuarietis. In virtually other situations where snails are "eating" the plant, they're actually eating at dead or dying plant material. Of course there are exceptions for some of the softer plants or for seedlings, where possibly an excessive number of Physa spp. might cause harm. But ordinarily, and especially with something as inedible as Java fern, the question is why is the plant failing not why is it being eaten by snails. For what it's worth, Java Ferns are not as easy to keep as many suppose, and are (in my experience) much less reliable than Anubias spp. One issue may be that "fake" Java Ferns are traded at the budget end of the market, and these simply don't survive for long underwater. But otherwise do review the needs of this species. While undemanding in terms of water chemistry and temperature, it will not do well planted too close (let alone in) the substrate and is best kept an inch or two clear of the substrate attached to bogwood rather than rocks or ornaments. Strong water currents seem to fragment the plant, and algae-eaters, especially raspers such as Panaque spp., can cause real damage very quickly. It grows slowly, and because of that, doesn't do well if constantly buffeted or pecked at. To be brutally frank, it's a plant I've given up with years ago, as I have with Neon Tetras among fish, because there are better, more reliable options available. One last thing. Your Anubias looks fine, and my golden rule with plants is this: buy one of whatever you like to begin with, see what does well, throw out what doesn't, and buy more of the species that seem happy. Your aquarium looks a bit sterile, and my gut feeling is any snail and algae problems you have is more to do with the lack of "balance" than anything else. Try and grab some floating Indian Fern (Ceratopteris thalictroides, but as floating plants, not the more difficult to keep rooted plants, though if you snap off fronds from the rooted plant, they'll grow into floating plants just fine). This is the #1 plant, I think, for jump-starting an aquarium. It's easy to grow, seeds the tank with plenty of good bacteria, provides food for herbivorous fish, grows rapidly enough to shake off any nibbling by snails, and helps to prevent algae. Sure, it looks a bit scrappy to begin with, but a thick canopy of the stuff below the waterline has its own beauty (I tend to trim away over the waterline growth before it burns under the lights). It also provides shade, which Java fern and Anubias really appreciate.>
I've had two local fish shops recommend Skunk Botia to nix the snails and they have hard water too...though the one is selling water too so they have non hard water available.
They're the smart shops...not just a chain store.
<Skunk Botia, Yasuhikotakia morleti, are social (keep 5+ specimens), aggressive amongst themselves and towards other fish, and grow quite large. Think very, VERY carefully before purchasing.>
One lady said they're perfectly ok in hard water.
<Up to a point, yes, like most loaches they're tolerant. But they do prefer soft to moderately hard, pH 6-7.5 water.>
The guy I just spoke with (at the shop that also sells water) suggested skunk Botias are ok with Mollies, which actually implies they tolerate hard water based on Molly's sensitivity to soft!
<Not a wise combo. Do visit those folks over at Loaches.com for second opinions, or read over the excellent Loaches book some of them wrote on behalf of TFH.>
When I checked my facts online it looks like it's not so though....the skunk Botia looks like any other Botia in water preference..but these hard water folks say it's great for our water!!! You say you have hard water....do you know of people keeping skunk Botia in hard with any success (fish thriving)?  Is it a flexible species?
<It is, but there are better choices. The Horseface Loach for example can thrive in even slightly brackish water (around SG 1.002) and as such can be kept with Mollies.>
I think I definitely shouldn't keep it with Mollies.  They like marine salt to thrive, a loach no no.
<For the most part, yes, loaches avoid brackish water, though some species enter slightly brackish water, notably around the Caspian Sea. Among traded species, Acantopsis choirorhynchos, the True Horseface Loach, is the classic slightly salt-tolerant species. It's a fun species and will eat small snails, but does need a sandy, not gravel, substrate.>
I think I can get my water to 7.5 with mixing it like you said.  I think that would probably be alright for a Botia.... Should I add peat filtration too?
<No real need and unpredictable anyway.>
Do you know of anyone using this water system for filtration with success?
<Peat filtration is fiddly (not to mention questionable in terms of environmental sustainability!). Remember, few fish care about the pH _per se_, and provided you reduce the hardness down to around 10 or 12 degrees dH, soft water fish can thrive at pH 7.5 without the least trouble.>
It looks like this removes hardness and even the water softener's salt.  I could do 50/50 with this water and the outdoor spigot that's hard water that I have been using....  The filter is at this link:
http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=4484
I just thought....I wonder if there's something out there to filter water for tanks, and I checked online and there it is.  How good is it, is the question?....$40 is inexpensive comparatively.
<Still a waste of money. Your fish don't need this kind of molly-coddling. If we're talking standard community tropicals -- barbs, danios and whatnot -- then a 50/50 mix of hard tap water with RO bought from your local retailer will be just fine.>
Reverse osmosis not practical...it wastes too much and is too slow!
<Indeed.>
Since I have the million snail thing going on........do you think the Botia could tolerate it if temporarily I put a whole bunch of fake plants in the tank?
<Likely so, but Skunk Botia are a unwise bet for a small tank in many ways. You need 5 or more, and they'll get to around 10 cm/4 inches in length, and they fight amongst themselves a lot, and they chase slow-moving fish. Do read up carefully on this species.>
The guy suggested it would be easier to get rid of them if there were less food supply for them.  However Botias like a heavily planted tank.  And are known to be aggressive and territorial.  I'm wondering if they'd tolerate fake plants..or is that an issue?
<Do try floating plants as mentioned above before giving up. Remember, if you switch to fake plants, algae will make up the difference; few tanks without plants are algae-free without huge amounts of hard work.>
In a 29 gallon what is a good ratio of females and males to keep with this species?  He said 5 to 10 fish..... I'm ok if it's my only fish species.  I can live with that.  I just remember I understocked mollies and had issues and I wonder if 9 is best, or is it ok to start with 5 since the plants will be fake in the beginning?  I want to make sure there are enough and not too many, if that makes sense.
<Are we talking about the Skunk Botia here? An odd number, with more females than males is the ideal.>
I really want living plants and the java fern was absolutely covered in baby snails last night even with adding the plant food and an increased light source.  They look like java-lace-fern and there's not much more to eat on them!!!
<Bin 'em.>
I attached a picture.  They were $8.00 lg investments!
<This is actually a low, too low, price for Java Ferns, which is my concern. Here in the UK, a good sized "mother plant" Java Fern growing on a bogwood root will cost around £25, that's around $40 US. That's a bargain mind you, because a healthy Java Fern mother plant produces lots of baby plants on the tips of its leaves, at least some of which can be removed successfully and transplanted to new bits of wood. Such a healthy plant will live for many, many years so is a sound investment. But cheap Java Ferns may or may not be a bargain. If money is tight, there are many better species that I'd recommend.>
I want my tank back and I am willing to work with the skunk Botias based on their reputation of being snail annilators!
Jill
<Don't expect any fish to annihilate snails. Just isn't that easy. Dealing with snails demands an holistic approach, not just removal, but also understanding why they're thriving at the expense of your plants. Cheers, Neale.>

Re: Snail nix cure?  re: better!!....re: Salt for fungus? (Bob, any obs. re: Java Ferns and snails)     11/25/12
Wow....this is embarrassing.  I had bought a replacement bulb a couple months ago and that's when the plants started to noticeably go down hill. 
The guy really sold the bulb, he had claimed it was SO much brighter and great for plants too, so he said.  It was what HE uses.  I should have known better.  The bulb he enthusiastically sold to me is called actinic. 
it doesn't even grow coral!
<Actually, actinic tubes are used, alongside white tubes, in marine aquaria, and yes, they do encourage good coral growth. But you are correct that they're mostly for looks, helping to make the blues on marine fish really bright blue.>
There is so much misinformation in this hobby.
<Hard to argue with this. But perhaps a more charitable opinion is that there are many different opinions on things, some based on experience, some on sales and marketing literature, and sifting through these for what'll help in your situation isn't always easy.>
There should be a class for fish store employees because people will ask them questions and they will give out free advice.
<Can't speak for where you live, but here in the UK, yes, there is college called Sparsholt College that has vocational courses on fish husbandry, including one aimed at retailers. It's been running for some 20 years now and is very well respected. There may well be others offering equally useful courses, and I agree with you, it'd be helpful if retailers made an effort to train their staff more fully. If nothing else, mis-selling equipment such that hobbyists end up with dead fish or plants pretty quickly dampens any enthusiasm. That in turn means such people leave the hobby, never to come back. Proper training means sales staff can nurture good aquarium practice in their customers, and long term, such customers will come back for more stuff over the many years they stay in the hobby.
Cheers, Neale.>
Re: Snail nix cure?  re: better!!....re: Salt for fungus? (Bob, any obs. re: Java Ferns and snails)     11/25/12
Thank you Neale!
<Jill,>
I had been totally sold against skunk Botia in spite of their supposed snail eating prowess, due to the negative things I'd read about their temperament.  But then the LFS were selling it as a miracle cure to snails and downplaying what I'd read about it's aggression.  As there were two LFS recommending it, they'd convinced me against my better judgment to get them. Thank you for confirming that it's a bad idea!!!  I was ready to go and buy a bunch and it probably would have been a disaster.
<Could well have been. On the other hand, Assassin Snails (Clea helena) are generally safe, being harmless towards fish (though probably not fish eggs and fry) and much slower to multiply than plant-eating snails. Do consider these.>
I wouldn't do a pea puffer either I don't think...but the lady at LFS recommended a pea puffer for snails instead when I'd told her I worried about skunk loach aggression, and she said it wouldn't bother other fish if I just got one.  She said it's mouth was too small!!!!  LOL!  It sounded so cute I was tempted.  But all the authorities say it occasionally does ok with Otocinclus (because they're bottom dwellers and they swim FAST enough to get away), but that it will attack larger fish and it ought to be in a species only tank.  Also it's freshwater not brackish tolerant so I couldn't keep it with mollies.
<While I'm sure the Dwarf Puffer will tolerate a little salt without the least complaint, you are quite right that they're a bad species for mixed communities. Some people have had success mixing them with a variety of other fish, but on the whole, the results have been poor.>
They guy at the other LFS actually told me I could just keep a school of pea puffers but that also disagrees with everything else I've read, as they fight each other once they mature.  (His were young stock.)   Anyway they're so small.....  they probably wouldn't make much of a dent on millions of snails in the amount I could keep of them!
<Indeed. Big scheme of things, it's often easier to remove snails manually (or, _in extremis_ with snail-killing chemicals) as far as possible, then add something that will stop the remaining snails multiplying too quickly, such as the Assassin Snails. Adding big but harmless snail species that compete with pest snails can also keep snail populations down; Tylomelania spp for example don't eat plants but do eat leftover fish food. They're big (up to about 10 cm, but commonly around 6 cm) and valuable, so any new specimens that appear can be removed easily when they're 2-3 cm long and returned to retailers or shared with fishkeeping friends.>
I will buy a whole bunch of Indian fern and return the hideous plastic plants I purchased last night!!! I will also build up stock of fish again. 
I think I'll go all female this time, and I'll chose baby mollies about the same size as the two that I have now so they're equal. 
<Good luck with all.>
Hopefully I can balance the tank and with regular plant feedings and some supplemental light or a better bulb, the plants will grow again.    I'll offer more vegetable to the fish so they don't live on flake and algae alone. Neale, ironically, I've had incredible success with java ferns in the Betta setup, and that's why I was freaking out that they were failing in the large tank...it seemed such a hardy and durable plant in the Betta setup.
<For sure. Java Fern is one of those plants that either thrives amazingly well or fails abysmally; it rarely seems to just potter along.>
They do reproduce, hundreds of little off shoots which come loose and I stuff those into the java moss where they grow.  They grow super slow of course, but predictably.
<One issue its lighting. If overhead lighting is strong, red algae grows on the leaves (typically blue-black brush and hair algae, which are red algae despite the colour). Anyway, these algae are a sure sign that the Java Fern isn't in a good place. In the wild the Java Fern lives in shady places, usually above the waterline to be sure, but places like waterfalls in rainforests where the overhead light is filtered through trees and shrubs.
If you just dump a Java Fern in bright light, then this algae problem is common. Does the algae cause any specific harm to the plant? I don't know; but I've rarely seen Java Ferns thrive when covered with red algae.>
I did think they looked inedible... I think I'd also read somewhere that a fish that nibbles plants won't eat them.
<They contain poisons, supposedly, like many other ferns, and even if fish bite them, they don't like the taste, and won't eat them again. Snails of course have different metabolic systems to fish, and may well be able to handle eating Java Ferns. But that said, neither Bob nor I have seen much sign of snails eating them in our tanks. Indeed, I have a tank with lots of plants and lots of snails, and the snails do no harm at all.>
I was therefore shocked that the snails were devouring it.  So I suppose I have the notorious apple snails.
<You would know if you have Apple Snails, Pomacea spp. -- they're very big.>
Though....the javas in the big tank aren't reproducing.  Maybe they are imposters!!!  wow. That Anubias had more leaves.  At least it's holding stable.  I'll buy a ton of Indian fern..   hopefully I can find it.  I'll feed it too.  I suppose that was the issue too.  
<Do be careful with feeding. Anubias grows slowly, and like Java Fern, will become covered with algae if exposed to bright light. If you have a mix of Anubias and Indian Fern, I'd dose the tank at about 25% the amount the bottle says, only going upwards, to maybe 50%, after a few months if you see signs that the plants need more minerals (e.g., the leaves are going yellow, not green). Too much fertiliser will simply promote algae growth (and waste money, too).>
My tank became sterile as plants died back and I had trouble with mollies bullying and they slowly died out. The guy I spoke with yesterday at one of the shops said he's found if he does a vegetable like zucchini twice a week it really helps to curb molly aggression.  I tried squash to catch snails and while they ignored it....the mollies loved it.  I think I'm struggling for lack of experience at this!!! 
<Perhaps. But you're gaining experience, and that's the main thing. As I've said before, look for what works, and stick with it. If some plant or fish simply doesn't work with you, then skip it.>
I am going to try this cool home made snail trap today.....  i think the shrimp pellets will be more enticing than lettuce or zucchini.  I have a small plastic container.  I hope I can thin their population somewhat.
http://www.aquariumadvice.com/forums/f20/diy-pond-snail-trap-126550.html
<Worth a shot, but generally traps are less than stellar in their performance. Here's what I'd do: strip the tank down to the glass. Put the fish in a bucket with the plants. Stick the filter into this as well, or if possible, into another pail of water big enough for you to leave the filter running (though switching it off for an hour won't do any harm at all, especially if you can open the filter to let the bacteria inside "breathe"). Clean everything as thoroughly as possible. Bin whatever you can, preferably the gravel if nothing else because removing all the snails from that is a chore. You can buy snail-killing potions that work well if you want to sterilise the gravel, but that may or may not be cheaper than replacing with new gravel. You can also use boiling water to clean the gravel, but that's surprisingly ineffective unless you do it in batches so that all the snails are killed. Dead snails tend to come to float to the surface if you stir small batches of gravel. But honestly, replacing with new is easier. Anyway, do this and then rebuild the tank. Fill up with mostly new water, and then top up with water from the buckets. Reconnect the filter and heater. With everything shipshape, net the fish out and put them back. They're doubtless be a few snails in the buckets that hitchhiked their way in on plants and filters, so don't pour them in by accident. Now go buy some Assassin Snails, 4-6 per 10-15 gallons of water. Add to the tank. They'll vanish into the gravel or sand, but if they take, they'll breed slowly, and they'll be a built-in anti-snail system!>
I thought horse faces get to 11" so I hadn't thought him an option, but I searched again today.
<Ah, they do get quite large, around 15-20 cm/6-8 inches being typical. I couldn't remember the size of your tank. Suitable for, say, 55 gallons upwards.>
There's a 2" variety that is rare, but is totally cute if I could find some.   Then there's also a 4.5"- The link to 4.5" here:
http://www.loaches.com/species-index/acantopsis-octoactinotos
<This species is quite aggressive and predatory compared to the "true" Horseface, Acantopsis choirorhynchos.>
I guess it needs a small group due to the species.
<With these semi-aggressive loaches, they're best kept singly or in groups of 5+.>
I wonder if it would it bother full grown mollies?  (The article said it finds danios tasty.)
<Indeed Acantopsis octoactinotos has a rather poor reputation as a community aquarium fish!>
I'll see if a LFS could order the dwarfs..... I like the look of them and they're a perfect size.
<The smaller Acanthopsoides species like Acanthopsoides robertsi are fairly tolerant, schooling fish, but being so much smaller, their impact on snails will be much less intense.>
Thanks again, Neale, enjoy your weekend.
<So far, so good.>
These issues I have will take some time to resolve I think.  There's a learning curve for sure.  (Especially with LFS selling imposter plants and trying to get people to purchase mean tempered fish for a smallish aquarium.) 
Jill
<Soon enough, all will click into place. Do spend time reading a good aquarium book, there are many, but here are two inexpensive ones you might like:
http://en.microcosmaquariumexplorer.com/wiki/The_101_Best_Aquarium_Plants
http://en.microcosmaquariumexplorer.com/wiki/The_101_Best_Tropical_Fishes
Both are written my former aquarium magazine editors with lots of fishkeeping experience, and both take pains to point out species you shouldn't keep as well as ones that should do well. If you're looking for used book bargains, both "An Essential Guide to Choosing Your Tropical Freshwater Fish" and "Interpet Guide to Community Fishes" cost pennies on Amazon and cover the basics well (indeed, the second book named was my very first aquarium book, bought in the early 80s!). I like the "Complete Aquarium" by Peter Scott as well, even though it takes the quirky approach of step-by-step descriptions of around 20 different types of tank (about six pages for each). Do try and look at this one, it's inspirational!
Cheers, Neale.>
Re: Snail nix cure?  re: better!!....re: Salt for fungus? (Bob, any obs. re: Java Ferns and snails) - 11/25/12
Wow, I'd love to attend those classes!  I suppose they have something in TX at College Station or maybe in a University near the coast, but it's likely more commercial and not for hobbyists.
<Likely so.>
I'm studying real estate classes now, though I read a lot about fish in my spare time, and having some classes to help me better understand the chemical biology of tanks would be useful. Now I know the actinic is what caused the downward spiral with the plants.  I'm mad at myself for letting myself be sold on that bulb in spite of misgivings, but I guess if I get a two bulb strip I can use it in the future beside a plant bulb.
<Possibly.>
I appreciate your educated advice!
Jill
<Most welcome, Neale.>
Re: Snail nix cure?  re: better!!....re: Salt for fungus? (Bob, any obs. re: Java Ferns and snails) - 11/25/12
Thank you, Neale, I'll try those books, the used book I started to read last night contained outdated info and I was wanting to find some reputable ones! The last book sounds like fun.  I have a short book on biotopes that I love, and it sounds like that one's even more detailed about the different kinds of tanks.
<It is a good book.>
No one had Indian fern….
<Do search under "Water Sprite", another name often applied to this species.>
but soft hornwort was working reasonably well before the light bulb change, and it's popular locally.
<Hornwort tends to be demanding (of light) in tropical conditions, but it can do well, yes.>
A guy's going to give me a huge bunch free this Friday as they throw it out at that shop anyway....it's just what their cherry shrimp are shipped in. (I'm hoping I'll find a tiny shrimp or two in it!)  Other stores sell it and claim it grows like a weed.
<Indeed, though I've found not indefinitely in tropical tanks without strong lighting.>
I ordered a bunch of Indian Fern from him also as no one carries it but the farthest away store who was out Saturday and needing to reorder… These plants will provide a quick planting replacement, the hornwort bridging the gap until the Indian fern grows larger.
<Sensible.>
This way I don't have to spend a lot and I can rebuild my plant stock gradually.  I may temporarily hook hornwort to decorations to simulate rooted plants... To give more hideaways.  I'm sure the fish won't  be picky.
<But the Hornwort; it does prefer floating, especially if lighting levels are low to middling.>
I'm up to 5 assassins..... I've been buying them weekly.  It looks like a couple of them are growing larger...probably from the massive food supply.
<Perhaps.>
I guess it will best to wait till the new plants arrive next weekend to do a thorough clean and gravel switch, as I don't want it to get too sterile.  I have a Quick Start too...whether or not that will be helpful remains to be seen. 
<It's not that helpful, and if the tank is already cycled (if you don't have an undergravel filter, of course) then it's pointless because hardly any of the bacteria you want are living in the existing gravel.>
Thanks again.  I'm going to hit up some garden stores now for fine gravel.  It's cheaper to rinse it than pay all that money for the gourmet pet store variety.
<Correct.>
Though I saw some on sale claiming to already have the bacteria......  That is tempting and may be worth a little extra cost.
<It's not.>
But Quick Start was $3 and claims to be the bacteria needed.
<It's a claim, and not one many experienced aquarists take too seriously.>
I could probably soak a little of the gravel in it and add it that way to make sure it takes as opposed to just dumping it into the water.
<Rinse well; the silt is messy. Otherwise, the existing aquarium fixtures, especially the filter, have all the bacteria you need.>
Jill
<Neale.>

Snail mug shots       thanks again!!   re: Snail nix cure?  re: better!!....re: Salt for fungus? (Bob, any obs. re: Java Ferns and snails)       11/28/12 Thanks Neale.  Yes, it's  called Water Sprite here, and I used the Latin name too when asking around. <Real good.> The chains used to carry it I think, ages ago, but they all went to small packaged plants...only one chain store still has a plant tank except for the specialty stores....and they all carry limited stock in their plant tanks, planted in gravel not substrate, with a few fish and apparently lots of tiny snails and every kind of algae imaginable!  That's why I like the ones packaged in moisture beads that are clean!  They also have the Latin name.  The only fern they carry is Peacock and it isn't the same Latin name. <Ah no. This isn't even an aquatic plant; a species called Selaginella willdenowii that inevitably dies underwater. http://www.wetwebmedia.com/fwsubwebindex/keepoutfw.htm Not even sure why this plant gets traded.> Here are some mug shots of the snails. If you don't really look you might not know they're there. <Most of these seem to be Melanoides spp.; they're harmless to healthy plants.> The one on the java is dead center and harder to spot.  I use a paper towel to wipe-capture as many as I can from the glass but some still fall back into the gravel so restarting is the best option. Thank you again!  I'll take your advise and see if I can save this tank.  I guess if it works, thinking very optimistically, I'll need to drop live food occasionally for the assassins? <Nope. They're as much scavengers as predators, and need very little extra food beyond the odd bit of fish food they'll find themselves. But they aren't herbivores, so they don't eat plants.> Maybe a little live food is ok for Mollies even though they're primarily vegetarian. Jill <Cheers, Neale.>