Gar compatibility          4/15/15
Hello WWM crew,
I have recently built my first monster (reasonable) fish tank. It is a 4' by 4' cube tank that is 1' tall. There is currently a 5 year old Shortnose gar and I would like to take down two other tanks. My question to you is, can my convicts (6) be housed with my pike cichlid with my gar?
<I have kept adult Convicts and a smaller Gar species together. Should stress: my Gar was relatively small (45 cm/18 inches or so) and never fed live food. He/she "waxed fat" as they say on strips of squid, salmon, tilapia fillet, and oddly enough Hikari Cichlid Gold. So he/she was probably a bit lazy and didn't really associate live fish with dinner, and instead got excited when it saw me, knowing an easy meal was not far behind. You're probably familiar with that begging behaviour Gar do when they're paddling about at the front of the tank looking at you. Anyway, this was also in a deep tank, 6' by 3' by 3', and the Convicts pretty much stayed among the rocks, out of harm's way, while the Gar had virtually all the top of the tank to itself. I didn't keep track of the Convicts, and since we bred them at the university anyway, they were just thrown into
that system as glorified decoration, but to the best of my memory, they seemed to thrive. However, your system is different in terms of depth, and the Gar and Convicts may interact a lot more (I'm not sure a 12" water depth is acceptable for Gar in the long run). The problem is that Gar are skittish and easy alarmed, and some cichlids throw their weight around a bit, alarming the Gar and causing it to inure itself. I'd be very leery of combining them without making sure the Gar had lots of space. Plus, if you have used feeder fish at all, then your Gar might not be so accommodating of tankmates. One of many, MANY reasons not to use feeder fish.>
Convicts are 5", pike cichlid 7", and a 19" gar.
<Which Pike Cichlid? Some Crenicichla species get huge, and become very aggressive. Others are smaller, and some have quite specific water chemistry (soft, acidic) needs. Not obvious companions for Convicts, let alone Gar.>
Filtration is a custom sump that does 1800 gallons of filtration per hour.
Thank you
<On balance, I wouldn't do this with the tank you have. The shape of the tank strikes me as wrong. Cheers, Neale.>
Re: Gar compatibility      4/16/15
Thank you for your input. I live on the third floor of my building so I cant set up my large aquarium with out breaking through the floor.
<Probably best not to do that!>
Since the glass is still being made, should I decrease the length and width and increase the height?
<I'd not keep any tank buster in less than 45 cm/18 inches depth of water, and the more the better. 4 x 4 x 1 feet = 16 cubic feet = 120 US gallons.
That's a bit low for Gar, 200 US gallons would be a minimum, in my opinion.
Do bear in mind that Shortnose Gar will get to at least 60 cm/2 ft in length, and potentially quite a bit over that. Now, a 2 ft Gar could probably be kept in 150 US gallons, so assuming the sump on your tank adds 30, 40 or more US gallons, you may well be okay in terms of volume. But depth remains a concern for me.>
The pike cichlid is a Inirida pike cichlid. He is unusually tame and has been hand fed every since I got him 2 years ago. He was an impulse buy that I have grown to love.
<Indeed. I kept a pair of Pike Cichlids back in the late 80s/early90s, what back then were simply called Crenicichla saxatilis, so very similar to yours, and they were lovely. But there is a lot of variation within the genus. So it's as well to be sure what we're talking about before making sweeping generalisations.>
What are the exact problems that could go wrong with this tank? Would it be uncomfortable for the gar?
<Lack of depth. Even Angelfish are uncomfortable in tanks 12 inches deep, which by the time you add the gravel and leave space for the lights above, may have only 8-10 inches of actual water. Let's assume your tank has minimum substrate, just enough to cover the glass and block reflections, but not enough for plants, that'd still be, what, half an inch of gravel?
So maybe 11 inches of water. Not a lot for a fish the size of a Gar. Now, if the Gar was kept alone, this mightn't be too much of a big deal. But throw in some bottom dwelling fish -- and territorial ones at that -- and you've immediately got the problem that the Gar has to keep out of their "living space". It only takes one strongly territorial cichlid to spook a Gar, and the result will be shredded fins, cloudy eyes, broken snout, or worse.>
I have a similar tank which was for my reticulated stingray but when he passed I acquired the gar.
<Ah, but Stingrays are strongly associated with the substrate, and in fact live in quite shallow water throughout much of their range. So long as their backs are wet, they're not that fussed! Gar, by contrast, are surface dwellers that in the wild. For sure they dive down at times to feed on benthic fish and crabs (these latter a favourite food) but they need to stay close to the surface the rest of the time to gulp air.>
He has been in a 3' by 3' by 1' tall tank for about 5 years from when he was caught with some bait minnows on a fishing trip.
<Cool! I'm very jealous. Among my favourite fish, and while I got to watch some in the Florida mangroves, I've never had the chance to fish for them.>
He doesn't like the bottom of the tank and stays in front of the tank.
<Quite so. They do become very tame, and in their way, excellent pets.>
He was raised on quarantined goldfish that were gut loaded because he hasn't accepted anything else when he was little.
<I would get him off Goldfish as soon as practical. The nutritional profile of these is terrible. Thiaminase for a start, but also a lot of fat.
Goldfish do seem to cause real problems for predatory fish. If you must rear feeders, then livebearers (such as Mollies or Mosquitofish) would be a million times better, but mine loved oily fish like salmon, which you can hand-feed using long (really long!) forceps or bamboo skewers. Alongside seafood and white fish fillet, there's no need to feed live food to a Gar once outside of the "settling in" phase.>
He has been weaned onto pellet (Hikari Massivore and gold).
<Good chap! Mine even took those cheap catfish pellets. They're not fussy animals once they learn you're serving the meals.>
Would my pike cichlid kill him, be fine or be eaten?
<Gar generally ignore anything they can't swallow whole, so anything deep bodied or big should be safe. Mine cohabited with a Channel Cat, a Jaguar Cichlid, a Midas Cichlid, and an assortment of Convicts in a rocky Central American biotope tank. Pike Cichlids vary in temperament from the retiring to the psychotic, so a lot depends on the species and the specimen. If
yours behaves, and is clearly too large to be viewed as prey, you may be fine keeping them together. But I can't guarantee that.>
Thank you
<Most welcome. Neale.>
re: Gar compatibility      4/16/15
If needed the convicts can be taken out of the equation. It has been quite a while since my gar has last eaten a live fish. Probably around 2-3 years, maybe even 4. Thank you again
<Sounds promising. But the depth issue still worries me. More about the one mean male Convict alarming the Gar than the other way around. Cheers, Neale.>
re: Gar compatibility      4/16/15
Ok thank you
<Welcome.>
The convicts will be sexed out, males sold and females kept in a separate system. My pike cichlid was kept with a few convicts a while back and didn't care about them at all. They seemed to bully him! Females too. Is this a good indication of his temperament?
<Sort of. Have you come across "mobbing" behaviour in birds? There's some evidence cichlids will "mob" perceived predators as well. Crenicichla spp. are retiring stealth predators, and their shape absolutely screams "predator" to anything kept with them. There's the potential for prey species to react by mobbing your Pike Cichlids, essentially making the point to the Pike that they've seen him/her, and that sneaking up on them won't work because they're on the defensive. In the wild mobbed predators will usually move somewhere else, since stealth predators aren't going to get their dinner once their cover is blown! Cichlids are plenty smart enough for this sort of behaviour, though scientific studies are limited.
In any case, my point is that cichlid behaviour is complex, and while it may well be that your Pike is shy and retiring, he/she may be more territorial when not kept with pushy, defensive cichlids. I'd imagine Crenicichla of suitable size would get on fine witness small Gar, to be honest, since they're both stealthy and easily spooked, and the Pikes (at least, my Pikes) tend to hide away a lot if given the chance.>
Should I forget about tankmates all together and be fine with a single specimen tank? The sump is a 49 gallon with piranhas.
<Piranhas live in the sump? While that's pretty cool in its way: it does defeat the object of a sump, which is creating "un-used" water that dilutes dissolved nitrogenous wastes in the water. If the sump contains fish, it's not diluting waste, it's adding to it.>
I currently acquired 30 crayfish for a saltwater fish. Can my gar eat these or would he enjoy them?
<Probably worth a shot, though gut-load them first, because crustaceans contain Thiaminase.>
What time frame am i looking at for my gar to reach his full size.
<Some years, and depends massively on diet AND temperature. Sexually mature within a couple years, and probably as big as they'll get within 4-5 years.
But like all fish, they grow continuously, albeit at a much reduced rate after the first year or so, and often barely perceptibly after a few years.>
I have had him for 5 years and caught him when he was about 4".
<Wow! Never seen one that tiny. Any pics?>
His favorite past time is a bright red ball. He pushes all around his tank and enjoys his form of catch. (Shoving the ball onto the floor and demanding its return)
<Cool!>
Thank your for your time and information
<Always happy to chat about Gars; alongside Snakeheads and Ctenolucius, my favourite of the predatory tropical fishes. Cheers, Neale.>
re: Gar compatibility... Just FW stkg.        4/18/15
Hi WWMC,
I really appreciate the advice you have given me. I have moved apts to the first floor and now can have my bigger tanks. I have a question. I recently acquired a "stunted florida Shortnose gar". Found it on my door step in a bag that said cant keep it anymore, take care of it.
<Bizarre!>
He looks to be a mid age gar probably 7+ years. He also came with a tank. 4' by 2' by 18". Is this going to be an appropriate tank for him?
<It's a bit small really. It's really hard to recommend Gar for tanks less than, say, 5 feet in length. If you say a tank should be at least twice as long as the length of its fish, then even the smaller Gar species need something around 5 or 6 feet in length once fully grown.>
I am unfamiliar with this species and am not sure what it actually is.
<Indeed. Nor am I.>
Looks like a Shortnose spotted cross.
<Could easily be. There are numerous hybrids out there.>
Pics are unavailable as I dropped it in my bichir tank to sell my platinum Senegal. Is this an actually species, trade name, a potential hybrid?
<Florida Gar (Lepisosteus platyrhincus) and Shortnose Gar (Lepisosteus platostomus) are different things, so a hybrid sounds likely from the name.>
Are there any snakehead species that stay small enough to be a potential tankmate?
<Because Snakeheads are illegal in many states in the US, they're not widely traded. To be clear: the good species are the "dwarfs" that get to about 8-12 inches. These are much fun to keep. But they'd be Gar dinners.
The bigger Snakeheads are generally far too aggressive and messy to make worthwhile pets, certainly in mixed species situations.>
Can you recommend a good tankmate that is bright in color and predatory?
<Depends a lot on what's on sale. The better tankmates for Gar are things like L-number cats, Bichirs and Stingrays that keep out of their way.>
I am assuming Arowanas are out of the picture but have really gotten into predator fish over the last few years.
<Gar and Arowana are not good combinations. They want the same top part of the tank, and Arowanas tend to be either aggressive about it or easily damaged if pressed, so best kept on their own or with benthic fish.>
The gar is currently 20 3/4" and is already on Massivore pellets with the occasional smelt and tilapia fillet. In this size tank , can my Shortnose gar (18") be a tankmate?
<Gar tend to cohabit well if raised together, but mixing dissimilar species in a small aquarium might be risky.>
Thank you
<Welcome. Neale.>
re: Gar compatibility       4/18/15
Would a tabapo red pike cichlids or Datnoides work?
<How big is this aquarium of yours again? It's barely big enough for a Gar.
Why are you wanted to add other stuff? Unless this tank is, say, 150-200 gallons in capacity, I wouldn't be keeping multiple Gar-sized fish in there. As stated in our multiple messages, in giant tanks (200+ gallons) Gar can cohabit with all sorts of predators and big fishes that stay close to the bottom. Stingrays, L-numbers, Pimelodids, (freshwater) Datnoides
spp., Bichirs... I kept mine with various Central American cichlids including a Jaguar Cichlid as well as a youngish Channel Catfish.>
I have several connections in and out of the country so I can get almost anything in. It is a part time business as last week I got 4 crocodiles (with permits and all legal papers of course) for a local zoo.
<Cool.>
Can you recommended a few predator fish that would stay out of the way?
<See above.>
I have already kept numerous rays and looking for something new. Bichirs I have in my African set up and Plecos are and addiction I already am consumed by. My 23" sailfin loves to be scratched on his back.
<Sounds cute.>
Thanks
<Cheers, Neale.>
re: Gar compatibility       4/18/15
Ok cool thanks.
<Welcome.>
Can my gulper catfish be a tankmate?
<Not wise. Recall me saying you don't want anything spooking your Gar? How well do you think a nocturnal predator that can consume prey twice their size is going to get long with your Gar? Correct answer, "not well at all".
Gulpers best kept alone.>
He is pretty lazy and doesn't move much
<None of them do.>
Thank you for all your help
<Cheers! Neale.>