Finding Nemo:  We're the bad guys! Gee I always think of aquarists as people who are particularly concerned with animal welfare and the environment.  This movie is a ton of fun - even if the dentist with an aquarium is the "bad guy". <it is a bit unfortunate... more than the portrayal, the real concern is the onslaught of parents and children that will bear down upon the pet stores looking for blue tangs and Percula clowns to put into 10 gallon aquariums. Yikes! Worse still, the few unscrupulous merchants that will sell them. The best we can do is keep educating our friends and new aquarists... local club meetings, chatting in pet stores, online, etc. Best regards, Anthony>

Re: Your opinion please Bob! (Inputs, reasons for marine losses) Hi Bob, Just re-reading some of the posts again after a few month hiatus.  I have to say....love the website! <Ah, good> OK, on to my question.  What reason is it that many marine organisms (mostly thinking of just fish) do not live well in captivity?  I realize this is a question that has many variables (and more answers than you have time for, but just a quick general answer will do), but I am wondering why certain fishes are considered "not suitable"  for aquarists to keep.  Is it mostly due physiological reasons or is there just so much that we still don't know that prevents many species from being kept in captivity? <Good question. Hard to give/have much confidence limit as to how much the lack of historical success in captive husbandry is due to the two above categories. The number one influence is without a doubt collective trauma from the collection, handling, holding and shipping through the "chain of custody"... having caught many of the same species coming from place "A" where they just don't "make it" and had them from place "B" do quite well, having been, lived in "A" and seen what the animals go through... "It" (the nefarious affect) is mainly human-caused. Now, beyond what the organisms go through being collected, certainly there are physiological and psychological (hard... at least for me... to say which) sources of stress that are variable amongst marines. Put another way, no matter what degree of care is rendered these animals they just take a beating all the way around and rarely live in captivity as a consequence... Third in "sources of mortality" is likely your statement re our not knowing enough re the given species husbandry, particularly in the realm of foods and feeding. What do Rhinomuraena consume in the wild? At night? How often?> Thanks for your time Craig <And you. Bob Fenner>

Re: Orange spot parrot fish Ok, so they sponsor you, whatever, all I can say about it is that:  It is pretty bad when you sell fish and know that they are going to suffer and die anyway, and not for a cheap price either!!    <Agreed entirely... the last 35 years of my life I've written and given "talks" (to business, hobby, scientific groups) on this basic topic/theme: Please consider the historical, practical longevity of what species, sizes, source locations you buy your livestock... YES, there is a huge difference in what is likely to live and not in captivity. I wish everyone involved in our hobby, industry felt as you do. How to better make this point? Books, articles, shows on television? Who is going to pay for such exposure, influence? Do the governments involved have to regulate the trade? Who will decide what is "right", "wrong" to do, use? To me, each individual is responsible, must "make up their own mind". Am glad to see you voicing your opinions. Bob Fenner> M.W.

Re: Orange spot parrot fish (inappropriate livestock period) I know their are a lot of bad, rotten things in this world that we see every day and I hate to see things suffer, Sorry I lashed out at you. <No offense taken> When you are just a new-be in the saltwater hobby, you look at the different sites that sale the saltwater fish and if you don't read up on the fish that you have an interest in (which apparently a lot of people don't) You think, if they sell it must be a hardy  fish that will thrive in your aquarium,    So I guess it is also  the consumers responsibility to find out more about the fish they want to purchase! <Yes! As you delve further into the hobby you will find many "positive, inspiring" ideas, people whose values you agree with. My thoughts are with you. Bob Fenner> Thank you again M.W.

A Conscientious Fish Source? Dear Sirs: <Hi there! Scott F. this afternoon!> I hope you can help me with my search for healthy marine fish.  I am in the process ( 2.5 years and counting ) of establishing a 180 gallon reef tank. I have purchased and read numerous books by Fenner, Tullock, Delbeek, Sprung, Calfo, Borneman, Vernon, Goeman's, Shimek, Vernon, Baensch, Wilkerson, Michael, Fautin/Allen, Fossa/Nilsen and others. Also, I subscribe to FAMA, TFH, many online magazines/articles, and try to search the net for any other information I can find. If my wife knew how much I have spent on all this reading material I would be forever banished to the proverbial dog house.  However, I am willing to risk my spouse's wrath, in order to find healthy aquarium specimens, and care for them under the best possible conditions. <Even a spouse's wrath is tolerable if you have such lofty goals, IMO! Well- ok- it's reasonably tolerable...> In my never ending search I have found many sources of captive bred and captive/tank raised corals/invertebrates.  Unfortunately, I have had less success in finding  retailers of  captive/tank raised, or captive bred fish. I realize the list of captive raised fish is relatively small, and the list of captive bred fish for sale is even smaller. But, I hope you can direct me to, or recommend, some online sources of captive raised and bred fish. <We share similar concerns and goals. I am a big supporter of these types of suppliers. I could, with a high degree of confidence, recommend that you check out Inland Aquatic, which offers captive-bred, captive-reared, and certified drug free fishes. Also high on my list would be Marine Specialties International, whose owner, Mary Middlebrook, is deducted to ecological-minded practices. Another trusted source would be Marine Center, which sells both common and rare fishes that are procured conscientious collectors. There are still other sources for humanely-handled fishes out there- just keep searching. High on my list for animals other than fishes would be Indo Pacific Sea Farms, whose owner, Gerald Heslinga, is a pioneer in mariculture, and runs a great business. There are many other individuals out there who can provide you with the properly handled fishes that you desire> Also, any recommendations for a retail source for humanely, net caught fish, would be greatly appreciated.  Without going into details the LFS is not an option (trust me on this). <Believe me, I can relate!> And, I do not know of any local clubs in my area, Colorado. Thank you for sharing your knowledge and experience with all of us. I hope to confer with you in the future as I set up my aquarium. Sincerely, Peter I. <Good luck in your search. I commend you heartily on your standards, and wish you luck in the future! Regards, Scott F.>

Subject: Ughhh! LA Times article <Great... will post all tomorrow Antoine. Bob F, pooped> Folks... see the complete thread and responses here. LA times article and then one of Walt Smith's responses follows. The complete thread is here with input from ERI as well. Shameful reporting tactics at best. Walt wonders if its another MAC attack :) http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s= b0b3a6c9274872287072c5d26f9962b9&threadid=117085 LA Times article: http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-fish28sep28.story COLUMN ONE Tropical Catch of the Day The search for exotic fish for aquariums can be destructive. An L.A. firm is part of efforts to clean up the industry. By JERRY HIRSCH Times Staff Writer September 28 2002 VITOGO REEF, Fiji -- Bobbing in a lonely coral reef, Manoa Kurulo spies his tiny prey, takes a snorkel breath and dives into the water. The nimble blue-and-orange quarry darts away through the stony underwater garden. Kurulo is a lumbering giant in comparison. Slicing through the water, he gradually herds his prize--a Fiji blue dot puffer the size of a man's thumb--into a fine mesh net strung between two stands of coral. The little fish is worth its weight in silver. He scoops it into a bucket already sparkling with an orange-and-brown goatfish and three shimmering silver-green damsels. The puffer has survived enormous odds to reach adulthood in a sea of hungry predators, disease and storms. Now, it is on the verge of embarking on a new and unnatural migration across the globe in the cargo hold of a 747. Kurulo's bucket is the first stop in a 5,500-mile journey that will carry the puffer from the pristine waters of Fiji to a warehouse on a stretch of 104th Street near Los Angeles International Airport known as "Fish Street," regarded as the hub of the world's aquarium fish trade. Kurulo will get about 38 cents for his fish. By the time his little puffer reaches a tropical-fish store on Pico Boulevard, it will sell for $13. Driven by advances in aquarium technology and the economic boom years of the 1990s, exotic fish and the coral where they live are among the hottest wild-caught pets in America and Europe. They make up a $235-million annual trade that has become both a blessing and a curse across the Pacific. In a good week, Kurulo earns upward of $100 harvesting fish and live coral, more than twice the World Bank's per capita income estimate for Fiji. He sends much of his earnings back to the remote island village of Wayalevu, where his wife and daughter live in a village of traditional thatched Fijian bures and concrete-block homes. Thousands of miles away in Los Angeles, Walt Smith, Kurulo's boss and president of marine animal wholesaler Walt Smith International, drives his black BMW X5 to his new 15,000-square-foot Fish Street warehouse--both the fruits of Fiji's reef fish and coral. Yet along with the bounty have come questions over whether the industry is contributing to the demise of the world's coral reefs. Across the Pacific, thousands of divers have culled the waters of moray eels, yellow tangs, coral banded shrimp and other exotic marine creatures in their desperation to eke out a meager living. None of the popular tropical fish are in danger of extinction, but in some areas, fish such as yellow tangs and Banggai cardinals have reached dangerously low levels, marine biologists say. The Indo-Pacific is notorious for its dangerous and destructive methods for capturing fish. Collectors often dive into the water with plastic air tubes wrapped around their waists, tethering them to old paint compressors. Periodically, they take breaths from the tubes, typically inhaling a mixture of air and exhaust fumes. Divers in Indonesia, the Philippines and Vietnam often squirt cyanide into the reefs to stun the fish, making their capture easier. Many of the fish die of poisoning, slowly wasting away on the trip to the United States or succumbing during their first weeks in a hobbyist's tank. Other divers destroy the reef habitat by using hammers and chisels to hack apart generations-old coral heads, breaking them into pieces small enough to fit into home aquariums. By some industry estimates, as many as one-third of the 30 million aquarium fish harvested each year perish in the long chain that leads from the reef to the hobbyist's tank. They die by stewing in hot plastic bags and buckets of stale water as they wait for shipment. Piles of tiny fish are scooped out each day from stuffed Styrofoam shipping boxes that are short on water to trim shipping expenses. "In some shipments if they get only 50% mortality they are happy," said Craig Shuman, a scientist for Reef Check, a monitoring group based at UCLA's Institute of the Environment. Striving for 'Green' Given the odds, Kurulo's puffer is one of the lucky ones. He was caught by Smith's company, one of a group of leading collectors in Fiji attempting to transform the industry into a "green" and sustainable business by varying their fishing sites and improving storage and shipping practices to slash the mortality rate. His Fiji station also is experimenting with collecting fish at the early-juvenile stage and raising them in captivity. Kurulo, like other collectors in Fiji, has learned that a gentle capture is a crucial factor in the fish's chances for survival. When frightened, his little puffer will inflate its body to nearly twice its normal size to make itself look more formidable to predators. But Kurulo's underwater moves are so deft that the puffer and three others caught within minutes show little signs of alarm as they are transferred from the reef to the boat. Tim McLeod, manager of Smith's Fiji operations, pilots his 26-foot boat Brittany and its cargo of live fish and coral back to the warehouse after a day of harvesting with Kurulo. On a typical day, Kurulo will capture as many as 80 of the tiny puffers. The little puffer is tucked away with the other fish, darting back and forth in a plastic tub--an unimaginably small world compared to the endless reef they knew just minutes earlier. Halfway through the journey, McLeod throttles back the engine. Kurulo knows the drill. He dips a bucket into the ocean and empties it into the tub, providing the animals with clean water and oxygen. It's all part of the company's efforts to keep its mortality rate to less than 2% of what it captures. The engines rev again and the Brittany points to shore. Perfect white-sand beaches and tangled mangrove forests streak by. The sea is so glassy that Kurulo can look over the side and see fish, sea stars and vast growths of coral as the boat speeds over the shallow water. The little puffer would have passed its entire life hunting small crustaceans and invertebrates that live within the large honeycombed boulders of Porites coral and the brown-and-blue tinted thickets of Acropora. Kurulo knows these waters as intimately as any stretch of land--where to find the stands of Acropora, the spreading disks of table coral, sprouting like giant toadstools from the ocean floor, and the swirling bursts of angelfish, tangs, butterflies and damsels prized by hobbyists. Diving has allowed Kurulo, 38, a standard of living far above what he earned in his previous job working on a road crew for the Fijian government. He owns two of the 77 homes in his island village--a traditional bure and a concrete-block home. There's no power on the island, but Kurulo is saving to buy a solar generator that would allow him to operate a television, a video player and a radio. The ability of the marine aquarium industry to put cash in the hands of villagers represents one of the greatest potential benefits of a business that badly needs reform, said Bruce W. Bunting, a veterinarian who heads the World Wildlife Fund's Center for Conservation Finance. On average, marine aquarium fish sell for more than 80 times the value of fish caught and killed for food export, Bunting said. Putting a greater percentage of that money into the hands of collectors--in the Philippines and Indonesia, divers earn maybe $50 a month--will encourage the villages of Micronesia and the Indo-Pacific to create protected areas and fishing areas and to limit the pollution that is killing reefs worldwide, he said. "The leaders of this industry want to see it cleaned up, and they know that this is the time to do it," said Bunting, who also serves as chairman of the Marine Aquarium Council, a trade group implementing a set of reforms and a certification process for catching and transporting the animals. The council's standards cover the entire supply chain--from reef to retailer--setting targets to reduce mortality and demanding that collectors and exporters certify that their animals were caught humanely, without poisons or other destructive techniques. The first council-certified fish are expected to appear in U.S. retail shops in the next six months. As Kurulo ties up the Brittany at the warehouse dock, McLeod reaches for the container holding the puffer and the rest of the day's catch. McLeod slowly adds saltwater from the warehouse's filtering system to the container to acclimate the puffer to the water that will flow through its holding tank. Fish Out of Water In its own environment of the reef, the puffer is a hardy species, able to survive through sheer weight of numbers and the countless hiding places within the coral stands and rocky storm rubble. But once removed from the reef, it becomes a fragile slip of color, dependent on humans to re-create a constant and complex environment. The puffer's home waters never seem to change much. That stability creates a challenge for the hobbyists who attempt to replicate a slice of the reef in their living rooms. If the puffer is to thrive in captivity, its water temperature should rarely vary by a degree or two from 78. The salinity in the aquarium must remain steady, protected from the swings of water evaporation from such a small habitat. The same holds true for alkalinity, which on the reef never strays far from a pH of 8.2. Even just an hour out of its native habitat, Kurulo's 38-cent puffer is feeling the stress of adapting to its new world of a small Plexiglas cage. Although the elaborate saltwater storage and filtering system at the warehouse provides the puffer with water nearly identical to that of its home, the fish cowers in a corner of its small holding tank, unable to find the expected refuge of coral branches. McLeod's workers won't feed the fish for three days. They know from experience that it is better to have a hungry fish than one that will foul its shipping water with the previous night's dinner. The puffer will gradually acclimate in the coming days, but by then it will be time to pack the fish in a plastic bag with fresh saltwater and then into an insulated box with dozens of other fish for the 11-hour overnight flight to Los Angeles. New Home and a Name For this puffer, and the other fish on this shipment, it is a race against time. McLeod's workers give the fish enough water and oxygen to last through the roughly 24-hour journey of loading docks, cargo holds and customs inspections until their arrival and acclimation into the tanks at the stateside warehouses on Fish Street. About 98% of the fish from Nadi Airport in Fiji survive the flights. The puffer arrives in seemingly good health. He is part of a shipment that includes coral and the other puffers collected by Kurulo. In a few days Eric Hartung, the owner of L.A. Aquarium, selects the puffers out of the thousands of fish offered by the Fish Street warehouses each day. Alex Bouchet, a sixth-grader from Mar Vista with an interest in ocean life, walks into L.A. Aquarium that weekend and scans the rows of bubbling tanks. The 11-year-old is quickly drawn to the blue-and-orange puffer and hands over $13 for the fish. Once again the little puffer gets packed into a plastic bag for the journey to yet another home, half a world away from his native reef. He goes into a 15-gallon aquarium on a table in Alex's bedroom. The puffer, now named Roy, swims in the tank, is fed after Alex gets home from trombone lessons and football practices each day, and sleeps pressed up against a large rock in the aquarium. But in less than eight weeks from the day Kurulo netted the puffer out of the reef, Alex looks into his tank and discovers that Roy is dead. It might have been the water chemistry, a disease picked up in transit or merely the stress of the long journey and the series of increasingly smaller homes. Meanwhile, a new shipment of puffers has arrived at Fish Street. ********Walt's response on the message board: LA Times article Hello all, I must say that I am a bit shocked by some of the "facts" presented in this piece. When Jerry first contacted me I was very skeptical of reporters and I told him so. He promised me that he would allow me to review the piece before anything went into print so I agreed to participate and offered all the help he wanted to get the story (and the facts) correct. I never was given any copy to read thus I have to view this as the usual reporters lie to get the story any way they can. I had no idea that this was going to be a story with me as the center character, I was told that is was going to be a positive industry story based on MAC and it's efforts to help improve the industry standards. Obviously, he tried to make me look good but that only served as a sweetener (except that bull about my diver in a grass hut and me in a big new BMW) as the underlying theme of the article was about this poor little puffer fish taken from his home and frightened to death. How about the responsibility of the store not advising a 13 year old boy that this fish would not do well in a 15 gallon tank with inexperience. One of the most irresponsible statements came from the guy at Reef Check stating 50% loss is a lucky day. I know Gregor, the director and founder of Reef Check and I am sure he would be horrified by one of his men making statements like this with no knowledge of the industry. I am certain he just made it up as he was interviewed , or worse, the reporter got it wrong. It makes the industry look bad and I have gotten a lot of calls this morning that confirms this. It makes me wonder if this is not a MAC ploy to insure their existence (and funding) to prove to the world how much we need them to save us from ultimate peril. I will say that I did get a very nice letter from the author thanking me for all of my help .... but. I doubt that I will ever trust reporters again. This is the perfect prelude to the upcoming Disney movie about a poor little clown fish that is collected on the Barrier Reef and sent around the world to a big scary Dentist who has a big mean aquarium (prison) in his office. His best friend, the Blue Tang, takes a dangerous journey around the world to save him from the perils of the big mean aquarium world. This movie is going to do a lot of good (HA!) for those that have worked so hard to bring up industry standards. Perhaps the movie and article are connected ... who knows! This was the last thing I needed to see on my desk when I returned from a very nice weekend at the Dallas MACNA. Cheers, Walt

Aquariums to save species Bob,   I remembered a paper on endangered reef fish, and made a few small modifications: Coralisters,   I have to disagree with the basic premise of the original question about using an aquarium to save reef species.   First, coral reefs are in grave danger around the world.  Coral species, however, are not.  There are a few very rare species of coral that are in fact in danger, but nobody seems much concerned- for example, on the Pacific coast of Panama there are 2 species of coral currently known from 4 colonies each.  If that's not endangered, I'd like to know what is.  These numbers are published, and yet as far as I know, no one is in the slightest bit interested in listing them as Endangered Species.  CITIES has a list for Endangered Species (Appendix I), but they are not on it.  Instead, all corals, including those whose populations may be in the billions of tons (estimates, anyone?), are all on the Appendix II list of CITIES, so trade is permitted, but permits required.  The reason for this?  To try to help countries control the trade in corals for curios to gather dust on shelves in homes, or to stock aquariums, to avoid the wholesale destruction of reefs (i.e, to save reefs, not species).  I remember hearing that dynamite and dump trucks were used to collect corals in Florida years ago for the shell shops; there wouldn't be much left there if it was allowed to continue.   As for other species on reefs, relatively few fish, mollusks, or other macrofauna are probably at risk of species extinction.  A study of reef fish found only 5 species that were critically endangered (2 of these probably already extinct), one that was endangered and 172 that were vulnerable.  Some macrofauna may already be commercially extinct, like the biggest giant clam, Tridacna gigas, but the species is not close to extinction.  Without action maybe it will be, but can we use it like the Spotted Owl in the US Pacific Northwest to protect entire ecosystems?  It doesn't require healthy reefs to live, and is easily bred in mariculture.   I would guess that almost all of the world's coral reefs could be "destroyed", that is 99% dead, without loosing hardly any species of macrofauna.  A few individuals of each species are likely to survive on most reefs.  (maybe we need some serious research to see how far I'm off the mark) Might loose some microfauna- I understand there are some amphipods with extremely restricted ranges.  Shall we try to save entire coral reefs by adopting the slogan "Save the amphipods"?  Un-charismatic microfauna may not help much.  Reefs themselves are far more charismatic.   Secondly, a home aquarium set up by a beginner is not going to help save endangered species; however, it could be used to help extinguish species. Yes, corals can be grown in aquariums and fragments spread to other aquariums and potentially returned to the wild.  Yes, more people are learning how to do this.  Yes, that's great.  But the reality as far as I know is that you have to know what you're doing, lots of people don't know yet, and fish shops continue to sell large quantities of live coral and fish because many or most home aquariums continue to be death traps- live things go in, dead things come out.  This is particularly likely for a beginner, but also includes many or most public aquariums with large budgets- do you really think they breed every fish species they have on display enough to replace the fish that die?  No way.  Sad, but true.  This does not diminish all the great things that aquariums, public and private do, for education, getting people to love the animals and be concerned for their protection, etc.  But those good things don't change the fact that most aquariums are net consumers of living things, not producers.   So my advice is if you want to get an aquarium, get one because you think its beautiful, but don't delude yourself into thinking you're helping to save a reef or a species.  If you want to help a reef, get a freshwater aquarium instead, and switch from that gas-guzzling monster you (may) drive into a highly fuel efficient vehicle.  (the sequence is said to be: burning fossil fuel produces greenhouse gas (CO2) produces global warming produces coral bleaching produces coral death)  So far, I know of no indication that people in developed countries or wealthy people in developing countries are at all inclined to give up big vehicles; on the contrary their popularity is increasing.   -Doug Hawkins, J. P., C. M. Roberts & V. Clark.  2000.  The threatened status of restricted-range coral reef fish species.  Animal Conservation 3: 81-88. Douglas Fenner, Ph.D. Coral Biodiversity/Taxonomist Australian Institute of Marine Science PMB No 3 Townsville MC Queensland 4810 Australia phone 07 4753 4334 e-mail: d.fenner@aims.gov.au web: http://www.aims.gov.au <Sue, with Doug's permission I am sending this bold statement along for your consideration in running in an upcoming FAMA editorial. Please do respond to the "other" Mr. Fenner (no relation that we know, surprisingly enough), and send him a copy of the issue if/when it is inserted. Bob Fenner>

We are collectors in Costa Rica and would like to discuss some future pos... We have been shipping Costa Rican Marines for 12 years to Canada and The US . We have just completed an expansion and now have over 5000 gallons of salt water capacity and feel confident we can service a few more customers with the same top quality and consistency as before . If you would like to discuss terms with us . or wish to see a price and inventory list I would be very happy to send one  out to you . We have new services into the UK that make this option feasible where it was not before . Hope to hear from you soon Catalina Castro <Thank you for your offer. I will gladly help you (for free) locate other markets. Who do you regularly ship to in the U.S.? Can you provide me with an idea of what your typical/annual stocklist looks like? Are there expensive restrictions like air freight that might influence an importer/transhippers buying from you? Bob Fenner>

Re: We are collectors in Costa Rica and would like to discuss some future pos... I am having problems getting emails out so you may get 2 similar emails . Any ways . Thank you for responding so promptly , That sounds great . I am not clear are you a transhipper or a wholesaler ? <Actually, and thank goodness for your facility with English, more of an "expediter"... A content provider in the trade, interest... mainly a consultant and friend in/to the trade these years... A much more hands on person a decade back... But do get around and know many of the folks in the industry still (attend most the large domestic, international trade fairs,  go visit several countries a year visiting collecting facilities... And am always agreed to help people make the trade better> We are awaiting freight rates from our broker and once I have those I will forward them to you . In some cases our clients have been able to negotiate a better price from there end with the airline  especially when you are in their hub , in your case British airways.<Really? Even to Los Angeles, Miami, Chicago...?> If you have strong contacts with them perhaps that would help. One concern I have is Packaging . We now ship in Styrofoam boxes with a waxed Cardboard liner . I understand that Europe and GB do not permit non Biodegradable packaging . . Do you have some suggestions in that respect ?<Ah, will check with my friends at Tropical Marine Centre. Do you trade with them currently? I am actually in the U.S.A., in California.> We work here on quotas imposed by the ministry of fisheries , For example each diver is allowed 50 fish per species per month .<Sounds like a good principle> I have 7 divers so I would have the capacity to produce and export 350 Holacanthus Passers for example .( water permitting of course )  I have 3 more divers I can put to work should the demand warrant it . . At present we ship to Marine Enchantment ( TO ) Exotic Marine and Marine Life Design  ( Miami ) Marine Brokers of Atlanta , High Brite USA ( LA ) We will be dropping HB for problems in collecting payments &. Sea Dwelling Creatures .  ( LA) They know us as Villas Las Cascadas but we have just made some changes in our company and from now on will be known as C 2 C International S.A. I will forward to you by Fax ( Need your Fax # ) <858-578-7372> a price and inventory list . This will be an approximation of what you could expect +/- on a biweekly basis  I look forward to your reply and as soon as I have rates , schedules and your fax # I will forward that and price / inventory list to you . I hope this can work out . For us the time has come to move into Europe . Looking forward to your feedback . Catalina Castro <And I will begin now to send out our correspondence via email to parties I know to be of help and possible business contacts for you.