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Aquatic Gardens
Ponds, Streams, Waterfalls & Fountains:
Volume 1. Design & Construction
Volume 2. Maintenance, Stocking, Examples
V. 1
Print and
eBook on Amazon
V. 2
Print and
eBook on Amazon
by Robert (Bob) Fenner |
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Pond construction 8/29/18
We are going with a kidney shape that is more bone shaped (by this I mean
thinner and longer in the middle than a typical kidney shape).
<Yeah, looks more like a "dumb bell" shape>
See attached rough dimensional diagram. We are using a 25' x 40' epdm 45 mil
liner and geo underlayment.
<Okay>
We are going 5' deep.
<Very nice>
We have heavy clay with a somewhat high water table, and on our existing
pond, although only 2' deep the rocks at the top edge of the dirt/pond fell in,
but I believe it's because we didn't keep it full of water, and we have nothing
but a thin liner with large rocks on the perimeter for support.
My husband, due to this situation with our current pond, thinks we should
reinforce all interior walls by putting in wood wall bracing all around with
flexible Luan board that's 1/8" thick and attaches to wood posts so that the
Luan board would look like interior paneling and the liner would go over that.
Not sure what his plan for the top perimeter would be, probably wood as well.
<I see; well; the wood won't last long (years) in an outside setting>
I want to pour a 6" deep collar 20" wide around the perimeter with the surface
level with the ground.
<Oh! I like your plan much more>
The liner will go up over the collar, and then large rocks will cover the entire
collar. Inside we'll have vertical walls with a plant shelf about 16" to 18"
down from the collar. I believe this will be strong enough with the liner full
of water to support the pond walls and perimeter.
<Yes; it should>
Do we need the wood wall bracing under the liners and the collar, just the
collar or just the wood? Or is there a better solution we are unaware of after
countless hours of searching and browsing the internet?
<Mmm; well; I am a fan... oh, I see you've read my posted pieces on WWM>
I read Bob's article on construction liner only in sandy soil, but I'm confused
what a Berm is and exactly what those instructions meant.
<A berm is a concrete perimeter construct that is reinforced w/ at least
chicken/stucco wire; better with re-bar for upright and lateral support>
Carpet over plywood with cement at the bottom and a cap (is that the same as
what I call a collar)?
<Mmm; don't know>
and this necessary in our application?
<Necessary? I WOULD do something in the way of shoring up the perimeter here;
due to your high water table and the fact that the present pool's edge has
fallen in. BEST IMO/E would be to make a concrete/shotcrete (small crushed rock)
coating of ALL the basin and edges as gone over here:
http://wetwebmedia.com/PondSubWebIndex/conclnrconstpd.htm
Less sturdy and long term would be to make just the edge/berm of solid material,
draping the liner higher than ground level, over a re-bar support.
Less would be the wood panel and wood support plan.>
Thanks,
<Welcome, Bob Fenner>
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Re: Pond build 8/29/18
Thank you Bob! I appreciate your input as always. Long time fan!!
Jenny
Re: 8/29/18
will do, thanks again
<Cheers>
<Certainly welcome Jenny. Do write back if anything is not clear; oh, and pix of
your project! BobF>
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How Much Sand Underlayment for My Pond?
6/30/13
Hello.
I am thinking about building a pond.
The pond will be a round, sunken pond, with a 2' wide x 40" long brick
edging. The bricks themselves will each be 2" wide and 8" long. The
brick will be standard red bricks. They will be laid out vertically. The
bricks will be laid 3 deep all the way around the edge of the pond. I
calculated I will be using at least 50 bricks in all.
The dimensions for the pond will be:
3.4' L x 3.4' W x 3' D
The pond will be 260 gallons.
The butyl liner I will be using will be 15' L x 15' W
I plan to add 2 inches of extra space for underlayment for the inside of
the pond and the edging.
I will be using fine, soft sand for an underlayment.
My questions:
How many pounds of sand would I need for underlayment?
<Likely 300 pounds or so; or you could use carpet (remnants, samples)>
How Many pounds of mortar should I use on the edging?
<Maybe four bags of sixty pounds>
Thank you.
<Welcome. Bob Fenner>
Clay Pond below the water table
10/30/11
Hi,
<Hiya - Darrel here>
I've pond area which is approx 49' x 3.5'.
<I'm guessing 49 feet in diameter and 3.5 feet deep, right?
Because 49 feet long by 3.5 feet wide wouldn't be a pond as much as
it would be a moat>
This area will fill with water from the water table and with rain
water.
<That's an odd situation. Your water table is very high and/or
your rainfall must be substantial.>
In dry spells the water will subside but we have recently dug a well
which fills every couple of days from an underground source (probably
ground water)
<Probably ground water? Well yeah - unless you sunk your well into a
City water main, I'd say it would be ground water>
and this can be used to top up the pond.
Q1: Am I right in thinking that a pond liner would be a waste of time
because it would basically float due to the water rising below?
<There is a problem, yes, but it wouldnt necessarily float. All
things being equal, if you have an equal amount of water on the upper
side of the liner as you have below the liner the liner won't
float, it would just not be very heavy. Think of it like this: Why
don't concrete swimming pools float out of the water during the
rainy season? The answer is because they themselves are filled with
water, so the most you have is the weight of the water INSIDE the pool
equaling the pressure of the water in the saturated ground. Now if that
pool is empty during a flood-like rainy season THEN it will (and they
do!) float out of the ground.>
<In your case, if the liner is properly placed, weighted with
stonework in strategic places, the most you should have is a FLEX in
the pond liner during the rainy season.>
<THAT SAID if your water table really is within 3 feet of the
surface of your ground level and you really do have so much rain that
it can keep your pond filled, I'd strongly suggest you look into
building the edges of your pond UP by a minimum of 6 inches above
ground level, if for no other reason than to prevent muddy run-off from
entering your pond. A ring of sandbags around the edge, the liner
overlapping the bags and then various areas of stonework, plantings,
etc. Once I even saw someone ring a pond with sandbags, lay the liner
over it, then top it with a ring of sandbags that they then seeded and
used as a garden bed.>
Q2. If I am right in Q1 can I use another some sort of geotext material
topped with sand or pebbles to prevent weed growth at least on the base
of the pond?
The thinking behind Q2 is that the geotext material will allow water to
seep in from below but act like a weed control membrane and the pebbles
will keep the membrane in place.
<In my experience, all the Geo-text materials available will just
turn into dirty, messy mud collectors when used by themselves.>
Or can you recommend another way of dealing with the vegetation that
grows in this area.
<I'm going to pass this to Bob for further (read: More Accurate)
input><<What you have here is accurate, useful. B>>
Thanks in advance for your help,
Jim
Re: Clay Pond below the water table 10/31/11
Hi Darrel.
<Hiya>
Sorry about the misunderstanding. Pond is 49' in diam and 3.5'
deep.
<I figured as much - I was just joshing you there. We don't get
a lot of entertainment down here in the basement of the Flemner
building in downtown San Diego chained to your desks so sometimes my
mind wanders>
Just to clarify, the pond/hole has a gentle slope down towards it. Thus
the difference in height between top of slope and bottom of pond is
around 10-12'
<So we have a 10-12 foot slope running down to a flat area that
contains our pond? That being the case and rainfall being significant
in your area, building a berm around your pond is an imperative.
Concrete or cinderblock would be best, but terribly expensive because
of how deep a footing would be required. My suggestion is the sand bag
approach. It's a lot of work, but not terribly expensive. I'd
lay a ring around the perimeter and in the uphill-facing side, I'd
drive two 3-foot iron bars (re-bar for construction) through each bag
and into the ground - this to help against a sudden rainstorm/runoff
wanting to wash your sang bags off the edge and into your pond. Then
I'd lay out the pond liner and overlap the bags, then cover the
liner edge with rocks, more sand bags, etc. or any way that suits your
esthetics.>
However I take your point regarding water weight on top of the liner
and the amount of pressure that would exert.
<right>
Following on from that, is there a chance that any rotten vegetation
might cause gas and produce bubbles.
<Now you sound like you are describing my ex-wife's home-made
soups>
I'm guessing if the liner is weighted then this wouldn't be
much of a problem?
<Not really, Jim. Unless you're building on a peat bog or
reclaimed swamp land, the volume and frequency of gas pockets isn't
your problem.>
<Your challenge is countering the volume of water that could
conceivably come running down your hillside>
Thanks
Jim
Re: Clay Pond below the water table
11/1/11
Darrel,
<Hiya>
Thanks for getting back to me so quickly and much obliged for the
advice.
<We're happy to do it - sounds like it's going to be a fun
& challenging project>
I understand your circumstances, darkened room, a 1 watt bulb above,
head down looking at a screen, never seeing a another soul for
hours/days on end. Then there is the mushroomy smell you get in damp
basements. I sympathize, I was a software engineer and used to work in
similar conditions. Never hearing a voice unless it was 'Oi, Wake
up dummy'. Gawd even the smell of wet dog was better than the smell
of my underpants after a week stuck in the dungeon. Anyhoot Darrel keep
your chin up son and thanks once again for all the advice.
Jim
<Jim - before I fell into this gig (literally fell -- Bob dug a
hole, covered it with grass and suspended a carrot on a string over top
of it) I was a retired software engineer. We had a banner in the coffee
room that read: No coffee too cold, no vending machine food too old!
<<Wot a hoot!>>
We don't program in C, ADA, Asgol, Lisp, Fortran or any other sissy
languages!
We program at the bare metal, in assembler and we don't document
any of it!>
<Thanks again for the nice words, Jim. Check out our
'search' bar and search for articles on pumps, drains and
circulation patterns.>
clay ponds, Liner const. 9/1/11
We installed a pond at the end of a large patio. We tucked the liner
under the last row of pavers and tucked the rest of the liner under the
rocks surrounding the pond. Our yard backs up to an area that has poor
drainage and as a result of the record rainfall, our liner keeps
lifting up due to ground water.
<... You should have in-placed a (French) drain around the basin...
either leading away from the pond, or to a sump to pump away...>
The ground under our liner is clay soil and weve read that if you have
clay soil, you can build a pond and not use a liner.
<Mmm, rarely advised...>
Rather than fight mother nature, we are thinking of cutting a hole in
our liner and letting the ground water seep into our pond. Do you have
any thoughts about this? Thanks
<... I would not do this likely... Trouble... w/ water quality
chemically and not being able to see into the basin... What are your
intentions w/ this pond... I.e., what are you trying to do, grow? IF
there's enough extra liner, you might consider raising the current
basin's edge by building a footing... raising the berm. Bob
Fenner>
Rubber roofing cement quandary
5/29/11
Hello there,
<Hi Gretchen>
Thank you in advance for whatever your answer may be! I have a pond I
have been working on for many months. So far so good. I am in the final
stages of doing the edging. The pond is a 3,000 gallon rubber liner
pond.
Straight sides. I am edging a section with large rock to cover the top
of the liner. Water will cover about 4 inches of the rock. I was going
to use Rock-to-Rubber
<This: http://www.rocktorubber.com/>
and concrete to hold the rock and ran across a post on your site about
plastic concrete. Sounded like a great idea, so I went off to my local
home improvement store and explained what I needed and showed photos of
the project and expressed concerns about a product which wouldn't
harm fish. I came home with Henry HE208R - SBS Rubber Modified Wet
Patch Roof Cement.
<Mmm... I wouldn't use this>
I was told it was ready mixed, would dry hard over night and was
perfect for the project. Henry makes a product called plastic
cement...but I was talked into the rubber cement. Despite my initial
reaction on opening the can, I used it anyway. Yep, that's right, I
used it anyway. It hasn't dried overnight and after some Googling I
have now come to the realization this is not plastic cement or concrete
cement cousin at all but an asphalt product.
<Yes... can be toxic, go back into solution if kept wet... and is a
mess to apply and worse to remove>
I would ask, "What was I thinking?" but obviously I
wasn't thinking, I was just pushing forward with trust in a
"professional's recommendation." I've searched for
hours to no avail on whether this is a safe product or a huge
mistake.
<Our companies used this material for various applications for
years... but this was decades back... I would NOT use in a biological
setting, nor one where the material is continuously submerged>
My questions are basically, is the rubber roofing cement I used safe?
(My gut is telling me no).
<This is NOT a rubber cement, but an asphalt/ous emulsion...>
If not, can I cover it with regular concrete to make it safe or should
I replace the liner and start over?
<I'd try covering it over. Bob Fenner>
Thank you for your time!
What was I thinking
North Hollywood California
re: Rubber roofing cement quandary 5/29/11
WOW! Thank you for the amazing less than 5hr fast reply on a holiday
weekend.
<Heeee! And what's more, am down in Costa Rica at the
moment!>
Yes, I am using <This: http://www.rocktorubber.com/>. Works
great. Love it.
<Thank you for this input>
I have a lot of extra liner, so I'm going to take the rocks and
extra roofing rubber cement out, cover area with liner and use seam
tape to seal off from the pond. Start over just on the edging.
<Mmm, likely better for your "peace of mind">
Thanks again! Amazing "customer service." I've read your
site dozens of times and your replies to people have really helped me
build a better pond.
All my best!
G
<Life to you my friend. BobF>
re: Rubber roofing cement quandary 5/31/11
Hellooooo there Bob,
<Howdy Gretch!>
I didn't want to re-disturb your Costa Rica adventure but now that
it's Tuesday...
<Am just back, blurry>
My partner's response to your quick reply while in a foreign land
was, "Shut Up! Who is this guy?" She's a hard one to
impress, too :o) We both thank you.
<Welcome>
The rocks are out and individually sealed in small trash bags and the
excess asphalt had been scraped away into a sealed container.
<What a mess eh?!>
It's like a Superfund Site in my own front yard! You weren't
kidding when you said that goo is a mess to clean up!
<Oh yes>
I'm off work Thursday and plan on tackling the edging again. Just
so I don't meander off on another ridiculous path of mistakery,
what's the mixing ratio for plastic cement, pea gravel and sharp
sand?
<Gravel/aggregate two-three parts, sand two and cement one...
practice w/ the water ratio so as not to be "too loose"
(Lautrec?)>
I hope you are well rested and suntanned not sunburned!
G
<After many years in the dive-adventure/underwater natural history
and petfish biz, am rarely "out in the sun", esp. in the
tropics. Thank you though, BobF>
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50 year old concrete goldfish and Koi pond -new drain
question 11/5/10
Thank you for such an informative website. I have read most of
the information and have a somewhat unique situation. I've
lived in my home in Oregon 32 years. The 600-gallon concrete pond
was here when I moved in. The pond is 14 feet long, semi-kidney
shaped, and is only appx. one foot deep (below grade).
<Too shallow to be of functional use as a biological
system>
(Don't choke - I have six large healthy Koi and some goldfish
for many many years in this shallow space!) There is a crack
crossways in> the middle. Over the last 32 years I have
patched the crack every few years with various methods including
2-part resin or hydraulic patch. I have now patched the crack
again with hydraulic patch. And now, after all these years, I
want to make the pond deeper by building forms and pouring an
8" thick concrete wall above ground, 18" high, and
tying it in with the existing concrete pond's lip with rebar
and also digging out from underneath the lip so the concrete
pours under and around - incorporating the lip for more of a
solid footing - and then cover all with an epdm liner.
<I'd put the/this liner under the concrete (and wire
mesh)>
I have received a bid for this construction and am close to
accepting it but am doing final research and preparation for the
"details". The existing 50-year-old concrete pond has a
one inch i.d. iron pipe drain (that I've always kept corked)
which is appx. four inches below the rest of the bottom of the
pond. I would really like to take advantage of this lower area by
cutting another hole (removing the 1" pipe) and inserting a
2" pvc drain pipe that will lead to a buried settling
chamber (same depth and height of the pond) from which water
would be pumped by way of a submersible pump which is suspended
appx. 1/3 down from the top of the chamber. Water pumped out of
the chamber will go to an upflow biofilter, then overflow back to
the pond. No waterfall (at least not now). Though I would love to
have this 2" drain, I am also very scared of it leaking. The
drainpipe will go through an epdm liner, underlayment, concrete,
and then into the settling chamber. What is the most secure
method to attempt this retrofit with the liner and concrete that
guarantees that it will never ever leak?
<To lay the liner down over the existing basin AND the new
upper wall... run reinforcing mesh over this... mortar over
this... and for the pipe, to cut slots and an X over it, drape
the EPDM over the pipe, Panduit and band-clamp the liner over the
pipe, and pour a good 3-4 inches of mortar around and over this
area. Solvents won't work here>
Or should I, for anxiety's sake, forget the drain and simply
pump out of the pond as I have done for 32 years?
<Up to you; I would have a drain myself>
I also want to have a floating skimmer to catch leaves before
they settle.
Up until now I have never had a skimmer. Leaves and debris sit
and rot on the bottom of the pond. Perhaps simply having a
skimmer would be adequate for the purpose of trapping a majority
of the debris, thus eliminating the need for a bottom drain and
settling chamber? It is a dilemma for me, and I am not good at
choices like this!
Thanks ever so much for any help you can offer.
Shirley in the Pacific Northwest
<BobF in N. Viti Levu, Fiji>
50 year old concrete goldfish and Koi pond -new drain
question
Dear Bob,
<Shirley>
Thank you very much for your reply and comments. I would like to
clarify one thing if I could:
<Let's see>
Your statement "To lay the liner down over the existing
basin AND the new upper wall... run reinforcing mesh over this...
mortar over this..."
To recap - I have an existing shallow concrete pond. I am going
to build the sides up an additional 18" with concrete. I
will end up with a concrete pond, 12" underground and
18" above ground, equaling 28" deep, all one
(semi-smooth) surface inside. Are you meaning to then put mesh on
the entire inside (over the old and new concrete) and then put a
layer of mortar over all of it?
<Yes, w/ the liner underneath>
Does the epdm liner sit on the mortar better than it would laying
on the concrete surface?
<... Read here: http://wetwebmedia.com/PondSubWebIndex/linerspdconst.htm
and the linked files above>
What is the purpose or advantage of the mortar?
And, I forgot to mention, I plan on having at least one layer of
commercial pond underlayment or equivalent so the epdm liner will
not come into direct contact with the concrete.
I decided not to do a "normal" bottom drain, but I came
up with another option that I've been passing around the
online pond community for feedback.
I attached a diagram (I tried just pasting it onto this page but
it wouldn't work - I hope you can open the document).
<I don't see it attached here>
The only thing different I'll probably be doing is not having
the skimmer tied into the same pump as the drain - I'll be
putting it on a separate line and pump. Anyway, the pond and
settling tank equalize water levels by way of the upside-down
"U" 'drain' pipe, similar to if the drain was
on the bottom and gravity fed. I figure a little extra pull would
be enough to pull up the fish waste.
<Better by far to have a "settling basin" tied into
this deepest drain area... NOT to pull water for recirculation
from here... See WWM re pond plumbing...>
I know this is unconventional. I will experiment with it and
different setups until I get something that works.
Thank you again for your feedback from Fiji!
Shirley in Oregon
<Bula! BobF>
Oh, I do see/find your graphic and I do totally agree w/ the
concepts presented. Thank you for sending it/this along. B
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Re: 50 year old concrete goldfish and Koi pond -new drain
question 11/6/10
Oh, OK. My mind was blocking what you had written, and now I
remember reading this (mesh and mortar over epdm liner) on
WWM.
<Ah, yes; SOP, standard operating procedure for the majority
of basins we installed>
I spent a few hours
one evening reading everything on the website (and two other
sites),
<Easy (for me at least) to become confused w/ so much,
disparate intake>
but that was a couple weeks ago and my mind is now
waterlogged.
<Heee! Mine as well; from diving so much this past week, too
much in the way of fab meals...>
At this time, I will probably just have the liner for ease of
installation and time constraints. I can always come back and do
the mesh and mortar coat later if I want. And thank you very much
for your encouraging words about the diagram and plans of my
contraption.
<An excellent symbolic representation of what a generalized
plumbing scheme
should be for biological ponds>
I am fairly confident about the overall concept, and it can all
be adjusted where needed; my only crucial decision right now,
before the wall is poured, is what size pipe to put through the
wall (at the old pond level). It needs to be large enough so that
when I install the inner and outer pvc extensions, I won't be
saying "I wish I would have made the pipe in the wall
larger..." I can always scale down to the
"pull-drain", which I had decided upon 2" but now
I am tending toward 2.5", keeping in mind that the smaller
the diameter is, the more pull?
<In practical terms, not so much of import; 2- 2 1/2 will do
fine for the gallons involved and equi-level draw, pump
applied>
Of course, depending upon what gph pump I get. It's all
experimental since it's a unique setup. I only have my 500
gph PondMaster Mag-drive submersible/external pump that I've
used for 18 years, and a 640 gph Little Giant (not mag. drv.)
submersible/external pump that I picked up at a yard sale for $5
- thought I could use it somewhere outside, maybe for the
skimmer.
<Mmm, this pump won't likely "drive"
such>
Anyway, I know I will need to purchase a new pump and getting all
of this planned out and then actually buying something is
daunting. I am tending towards a PondMaster 1800 gph (3/4"
outlet) or 2400 gph (1" outlet)
Mag-drive for the settling tank and I can scale down the outflow
if needed.
<Mmm, a remark I should make re your checking the amperage
draw, likely cost of continual operation>
I might need to split the outflow so that the water in the
bio-filter tank isn't rushing through so fast that it
doesn't have a chance to do it's bio thing???
<Mmm, not likely a real concern here either>
I've read about dwell times and that's one more thing
I'm trying to mix into all of this. Too many things to think
about! I'm trying to learn as much as I can before I get my
feet wet.
Thank you again for your quick responses and information. If I
didn't have the internet with which to study, learn, and
correspond, I would be up a creek! Ah, too many water jokes!
Shirley in Oregon (~_~)
<You're doing, ah, swimmingly. BobF>
Re: 50 year old concrete goldfish and Koi pond -
further adventures 11/11/10
Good morning, Bob.
<Morrow Shirl!>
Well, my plans have changed somewhat, though not in the grand
scheme of things. Yesterday my (very tolerant and polite)
contractor began excavating (I like that word - sounds like
something is finally happening!) around the old pond's edge
in preparation for the forms for the new 8" wide x 18"
high wall. He will be drilling into the old pond edge to affix
rebar vertically, and rebar will also be cross tied horizontally
around the perimeter. A 2" and a 1" PVC flow-through
pipe are at the existing pond's level (at bottom of new
wall), and a 1" overflow pipe at the top. Ok, so what has
changed, you ask? The only part I never felt comfortable about
with this whole installation is the liner. I know, it's wise
and final and safe. Call me crazy, but, after having my concrete
pond for 32 years, I just don't like liners unless absolutely
necessary. Soooo, no liner for the time being.
The old pond is patched and could be used as-is for a few years,
so I'm not worried about that at present. After the new
concrete is poured on top of the old edge, I will probably put a
wide bead of hydraulic patch around the seam to seal it,
<I do hope this works for you. Such "cold seams"
rarely do... in weeks, months, they crack>
and around the pipes, unless I use something like WaterPlug?
<A good choice. This or other expansive patch>
The new concrete is the question. I am having acrylic added to
the mix for stability as well as, I am thinking, for slight
waterproofing and to reduce leaching?
<Yes... all good properties... do utilize "plastic"
cement as well>
I will wash the new surface either with muriatic acid or vinegar
a couple times and rinsing.
<Dilute the first by about ten times... take care not to
breath in the fumes of this 3 molar Hydrochloric Acid>
I am pondering the use of Thoroseal (or equivalent), but
haven't decided, yet, and haven't looked locally to see
what's available.
<Can be ordered or similar found/substituted>
I know concrete is porous, but how much could/would it actually
leak through an 8" wall?
<You may find out>
My old pond is 3"-4" concrete with no waterproofing
sealer. And, of course, whether I waterproof or not, there's
the leaching business - which, as I said, I'll be prepping
with the acid or vinegar. When I am to the point of adding water
for the fish, rather than fill the pond to the top, thus exposing
the entire surface of the new concrete sides to the water/fish, I
am considering keeping the water at the old pond's level, and
then allow it to slowly creep up the side (actually, Oregon rain
will do this) a little at a time over the next few months. This
would give the new concrete time to cure and gently leach
throughout the coming wet winter. One question is, how much will
concrete leach alkalinity if it's not actually standing in
water but water is just dripping down the sides?
<Slower, but... again, the plastic cement is far less
caustic>
I would be testing Ph regularly and doing water exchanges when
needed. One thing I will say - if this doesn't work and I end
up with a 32" deep pond next spring that won't hold
water above a one-foot depth, I can, and will, put a liner in at
that time. But I feel a lot more comfortable at least giving it a
try, first, without the liner.
<Okay>
So, am I crazy?
<Well, not w/ this project at least. Or, perhaps we both
are>
Yea, probably. If I didn't have the old 600 gallon pond that
I know and trust to get me through the winter, I would never
consider this.
Your thoughts?
That's the news in Turner, Oregon.
Hope you're having a marvelous time!
Shirley
<Thank you! BobF>
Re: 50 year old concrete goldfish and Koi pond - further
adventures 11/11/10
Thanks, Bob, for your input. I guess I thought acrylic was what
was added to make plastic cement.
<Mmm, no. See the Net re Plastic Cement/s... easier flow,
lower alkalinity...>
I'll talk to the contractor about it - I want to maximize my
success any way I can up front. I also wanted to find out if
there was a particular product I could paint/spray/brush on the
old pond edge to increase and insure better adhesion with the
newly poured concrete.
<Mmm... there are some... look like "white glue"...
but these (again) rarely work. The idea of the foundation coating
after is good>
One thing I will mention, the contractor has back-dug out
underneath the edge several inches so that, when the new wall is
built, the concrete will be beneath and completely incorporating
the old pond's lip.
<Good>
Thanks again. Shirley
<As many welcomes. B>
Re: 50 year old concrete goldfish and Koi pond - further
adventures 11/16/10
I found the Plastic Concrete online at Lowe's, so I know what
it looks like, except it's not available in store anywhere
near my home, nor is it at Home Depot. Bummer. Down to the last
wire now - the forms are up and they pour concrete tomorrow
morning.....
<... And the folks doing the concrete work can't source
it? Strange. B>
Re: 50 year old concrete goldfish and Koi pond -
further adventures 11/21/10
Well, Bob, things are hunky dory here in Oregon.
<Up for me, and shades of David Bowie album titles!>
I now have the Great Wall of Turner in my backyard!
<Heee!>
It looked imposing, at first, but I'm getting used to it. It
makes my former one-foot-deep 600-gallon pond look huge.
<Mmm, isn't it actually the other way round?>
The newly poured wall ended up being at least 20" above
ground level, and anywhere from 8" to 11" wide. The top
lip of the old pond was ground down to get a good clean surface,
and a bonding agent painted on for better adhesion with the new
concrete. The pouring was done four days ago. Yesterday I cleaned
out the pond from leaves (which I left in to act as a barrier to
concrete "splops"), debris, gravel, and stuff. I
cleaned around the "seam" between the old and new. I
did some checking - the WaterPlug that you recommend is another
brand name for the hydraulic concrete patch that I've used
for 28 years. I will be applying this all around the seam, as
well as around the pvc drain pipes that were poured in place. And
then I will use Thoroseal. I am tending towards the regular
Thoroseal Waterproof Coating, not the TS Foundation Coating.
Partly because the application directions sound a little more
user friendly, and also because only it is approved by the NSF
for potable water. I am somewhat mixed about whether I'll use
the Acryl-60 additive.
<I've used it and not... Don't know that it makes a
great deal of difference in these applications>
I have read some postings that claim that it prevents the TS from
soaking into the concrete properly, and that it can cause the
coating to crack. This might be as a result of not following
directions... I've read all application instructions a few
times and will read a couple more times before I make my choice.
Any comments or preferences you might have.....
First question: How long should one wait before applying
Thoroseal to newly poured concrete?
<A few days>
Does the concrete need to "cure" for a week or two?
<Not this long>
The temperature here has dropped to 32º last night and TS
shouldn't be used in temps under 40º, so I can't do it
immediately, anyway. But I just wanted to check.
Second question: Since I am using Thoroseal, is there any reason
to acid wash (I would just use vinegar solution) the concrete
before the TS is applied?
<Not IMO/E>
I will be acid-washing the TS after it is cured.
<Good... mild only... diluted as stated before... mopped on
(wear olde clothes that cover your arms, legs...)>
Third question: Is it advisable to Thoroseal the outside of the
concrete wall?
<Can... more for looks, conformity>
I'll keep you posted on progress. I was thinking that I
wouldn't completely fill the pond immediately after
TS'ing and simply allowing rain to fill it throughout the
winter season, but I might go ahead and fill it sooner so that I
can get my settling tank installed to see if my
"semi-gravity-drain" invention will work.
That's the news from Turner, Oregon. Hope you are doing
well.
Shirley
<Thank you... Out to see the new Potter flick in a bit.
BobF>
|
|
Liner install
10/20/10
I have a brick enclosure. It was probably originally for flowers.
It's about 3 feet side and about 10 feet long. The enclosure
has the brick wall of the house on two sides and a 20" wall
on the other two sides (at least double layer of brick). At some
point some of the dirt was removed and a small water garden
installed. I want to excavate all the dirt from the area and line
the enclosure with pond liner, and put a small water fall at one
end of the enclosure.
This is to house a couple fish along with continuing to have some
water plants.
<I see>
I have two questions/issues:
1. What is best to do for the liner that will be on the house
side?
<To "trap" the upper edge between the current top
and a new cap; barring this, a very messy process of fitting
(don't cut all the way to the top till it's test-filled
w/ water... using a "glue" of some sort (usually
asphaltous in nature... the messy part), the liner to the
vertical walls...
This is covered in the FAQs archived on WWM under liner use on
the Pond Subweb of WWM>
The vertical wall will have no place to overhang and cover the
liner.
<Understood... the liner has to terminate/end higher, above
the water level line>
The outside walls, the liner can overlap the wall and will have a
course of 4" cap stones setting atop the liner.
<Ah good. This is best>
I was thinking I might have to put another layer of 4x4's or
brick alongside the house brick higher than the pond waterline,
then use a final row of brick/stone to set atop the liner. I was
not going to mortar the bricks (or 4x4's) as they will be
held in place between the house exterior wall and the water
pressure.
<I would eventually mortar in... looks nicer and there's
less chance of the rock/cap falling in, tearing the liner. There
are colours/dyes you can add to the mortar mix>
2. The existing power outlet would actually be below water line,
so I must relocate the box. This will involve running a bit of
conduit from the existing outlet box up to the new location. I
would seal the hole where the conduit enters the house. Is it a
bad idea to have the electrical conduit coming out there and
having the liner over the conduit.
<Can be... You might want to look into installing a junction
box... in the basin, or a compression coupler to waterproof fit
the electrical cable. In all cases, the line MUST be fitted w/,
through a GFCI circuit>
I think so. My alternative is to build a wall to pull the pond
keep the pond away from the conduit and
relocated outlet box. I'm thinking I'd just use 4x4's
to build that up.
<Mmm, do read on WWM, elsewhere re>
Any suggestions would be appreciated.
<Bob Fenner>
Re Liner install - 10/22/10
Crew,
<Brion, you did get my response?>t;
I'd sent a message about the liner install. I thought I'd
show send a few photos to see if a picture helped. <Mmm,
yes>
"Site-1-Small" is a ground level view of the site. The
rubble around the wall is the rocks, broken tiles, broken bricks
that I excavated from the enclosure.
I probably need to clear those away before my wife loses patience
with the project (the budget's already exceeded)...
<You are wise here>
The majority of the outer wall will be the upper ledge where the
liner will terminate. There is one of the
stone blocks that will set atop the liner one all is in
place.
<So, I understand that you'll be breaking off the
remaining/shown cap, capturing the liner edge under this area on
the two exposed sides>
TopRight-Small" shows the window/outlet box. I intend on
putting a junction box and conduit around to relocate the
box.
<Good... Needs to be six feet away from the water, have a
service switch, be wired through a GFI... according to the olde
NEC at least>r /> But, it turns out the box is probably the
limit of where I should go. Just below the outlet box you
will notice a black pipe. That is the drain pipe from our kitchen
sink that goes around the outside of the house to connect with
the sewer. I probably don't want to cover that up with the
pond. So, my thought is to run a concrete block course between
the house and the outer wall. I'll also need to form a
repository to hide my Laguna power-flo 1400.
<Mmm, a wooden "box" will likely be best... Above
grade; with all set upon a pad... concrete cast or
pre-cast...>r /> Backfill and possible devise some
waterfall feature. I'll put some concrete footer down before
the blocks.
Then possibly a cap block course. I'll then be able to put
stone blocks atop the liner there.
<Okay>
WallRight-Small" shows another view of the outlet box. The
liner should come up just to the mortar joint above the top of
the outlet box. The outside wall is about 1/2" higher than
that mortar joint. I'd wanted to go all the way to the other
wall, but don't think I should cover the drain line. And, I
did need a space to house the filter.
<Yes>
TopLeft-Small" shows where the largest part of the pond will
be. Note along the house wall there is no ledge for the
liner.
<Yes... unless you build a wall/ledge to mount same over...
you'll have to "stick" the liner up there... not
easily done as previously I wrote you>r /> Also, you may
notice that I excavated a bit below the footers for the wall.
I'd pulled out some clay drain
tiles. I don't know if the weight of the water could collapse
those.
<I would definitely put something there, compact it...>
Length-Small" is one other view. It's a little over 8
feet from the nearest wall to the outlet box.
This gets to my core puzzle. What would be your recommendation
for house wall side of the liner. I think the two core options
are 1) adhesive the liner to the house (don't like this). 2)
build a wall against the house (4" maybe) that will then
provide a ledge for the liner.
<Agreed>
What is the preferred material. Brick would match the rest I
suppose, but what about treated wood 4x4's?
<Not wood... Brick, block will be fine>
Also, what do you recommend regarding filling up the excavated
portion to the wall footers(e.g. concrete, gravel, sand,
dirt)?
<Concrete would be best... floated to a given/made deeper
area... depression... to facilitate draining, solids,
"bad" water removal>
I need to cover some of those sharp edges. I've been
searching the site, but a link to any FAQ/article would be
appreciated. I do have underlayment to use and might have enough
to double it.
<I'd float the bottom out in concrete w/ small aggregate
(nom. 3/8" or pea gravel)>
I've got two 14" Koi in a 40 gallon holding tank.
I'm sure they're anxious to get to their new digs...
<Ah yes>
Thanks,
Brion Jones
<Welcome. BobF>
|
 
  |
Attaching Firestone liner to Waterfall Filter
4/14/10
I am replacing an old waterfall liner which was installed really badly
(by me) and has developed new leaks every spring. I have finally had
enough and am planning to redo the whole thing. One problem I'm
having is the proper way to attach the liner to the underside of the
waterfall
filter/spout. What kind of glue/tape, etc. should I use to attach
Rubber liner to the filter. I think I used double-sided tape the first
time and it did not hold. This has been the source of my latest
leak.
Thanks, Lou
<Mmm, this may sound a bit whacky/whacked, but I have used and
suggest you consider using a "water proof" roofing
"tar" product... IS tremendously messy to apply... but is the
best available, most appropriate technology...
See your hardware stores re Henry's, Marvin's... product lines.
Wear olde clothing, gloves... have rags, a solvent on hand for clean
up... take your time, pre-cut the liner to fit... I'll be thinking
of you...
Bob Fenner>
Re: Attaching Firestone liner to Waterfall Filter
4/14/10
Thanks Bob-
Is this type of "stuff" toxic?
<It is not, once cured>
I have fish in the pond. Can I use the rubberized roofing caulk
available at the home improvement store in the pond or is it toxic?
<I think this material is okay as well, but I would contact the
manufacturer re ahead of use>
Don't want to kill the fish in this process.
<Understood. BobF>
|
Pond liner adhesion to vertical natural rock.
3/11/10
I have a vertical rock 15' high with a pump that pipes water
to the top and spills it over the edge to a small pond at the
base. I want to install Pond Liner up the face of the rock and
use it to keep falling water from disappearing. I noticed you
told someone they could simply use roofing tar to hold the liner
in place but am wondering if it will work on a vertical rock?
<Yes... a mess to apply... and the area where the liner and
rock is exposed needs to be coated over in turn... With something
waterproof, to preclude the "tar" from being wetted.
Mortar... quick set type... with glue... and colour... works well
here>
I have been considering cutting the rock and poking the edge of
the liner in the gap and know I will need to seal the liner at
that point.
<Yes>
Was considering drilling holes in the rock and installing pegs to
hold the liner up. The distance from bottom of pond to where I
would make the cut up the face of the rock is about 2 feet.
Thank you so much for responding. Misc pics Spokane 002.jpg
<Do wear gloves, clothes you won't mind tossing... have a
solvent (maybe even just gasoline) on hand to clean up... Bob
Fenner>
|
 |
Rectangular indoor Pond with viewing glass
11/14/09
I am considering making an indoor pond of size 16' long x 4'
wide x 30 inches tall. It is going to be rectangular in shape with an
open top.
The container will be built out of 2 x 4, 4 x 4, and 3/4 inch
plywood.
In the front of the pond, will be two 7 ft x 2 ft long viewing glass
3/4" inch thick.
I have seen these DYI project done with epoxy paint and or
fiberglass.
<Mmm, our businesses put in a few of these viewing panels. We had
"races" built... "L" flanges on two sides (inside
and out, bolt the liner twixt with caulking)... enclose the glass on
the water side>
I was exploring the use of the EPDM 45 mil pond liner to do the
project.
The two areas I have concern with are
1) Best way to seal the vertical corners
<Silastic, after the metal construct has been installed
water-tight>
2) Best way to cutout the viewing area and sealing it to the glass or
siliconing it to the glass/wood for a seal.
<Build the race in place, "pinching" the liner twixt the
race faces... Silastic the glass in the water side>
I am considering buying a 10' by 20 ' piece of the EPDM pond
liner.
Cutting a pattern like this
16 ft
+-----------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------+
|
|
|
| 30 "
|
|
|
| 30"
+------------
----------------------+
|
|
|
|
|
| 4 ft
|
|
|
|
|
|
+------------
----------------------+
|
| B
| Front Panel to have two
| A
| 7 foot openings for viewing
|
| glass
|
+-----------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------+
Any suggestions on how to seam all the Sides A to Sides B to form a
corner.
<You'll need a bigger piece of liner than this... needs to go
up, above water level, attach to something. See WWM for some S.O.P.
input>
Suggestions on how to seal the 7 foot openings.
I think I have a pretty good design for the support container but was
wondering about whether I can do this with pond liner
<Well... I would make the area/wall for the viewing panel out of
cinder block, fill all cells... and use wire mesh on the inside of the
liner if you intend (and I would definitely) shot-crete, otherwise
concrete the inside of the basin. Bob Fenner>
Otto
Pond Liner 9/22/09
Hi We would like to make our pond bigger and I was wondering if it was
safe to seem two liners together maybe the seem would be 15-20 feet
long? What do you think. Thanks Lisa
<Yes... liners can be seamed together... Some are annealed
(solvented) like PVC... Others require adding an intermediate material
for physically "band-aiding" the liners together (Rubber et
al. liners). See the Net, WWM for details. Bob Fenner>
Does algaecide and chlorine cause damage to pond
liner? 9/6/09
Hi, I'm a new pond enthusiast and have successfully put new life in
our pond that was falling apart. We don't have and may be won't
have fish and are still in the process of deciding which water plants
to keep. In the
mean time, I've been using algaecide in which the active ingredient
(60%) is
Poly[oxyethylene(dimethyliminio)ethylene (dimethyliminio)ethylene
dichloride. FYI... I use this same algaecide for my swimming pool.
<Yes>
I really want to know if this type of algaecide will damage the pond
liner (45 mil rubber liner).
<Not as far as I'm aware. Butyl/Rubber liners are quite
chemically unreactive... and any material "lying" on the
liner could be easily rinsed, washed off>
I have also been putting chlorine in my pond. This is same stuff that
I've using for my swimming pool. Does that damage the pond
liner?
<This might... hypochlorite is a strong oxidizer... I would take
care not to use too much (less than 1 ppm free Cl), nor use in water
with a low pH (under 6.0)>
Thanks in advance.
- Hiren
<Welcome. Bob Fenner>
Natural pond to waterfall transition construction?
6/17/09
Hello,
I am planning to construct a waterfall from a manmade (branch fed)
non-liner pond over an earthen dam and would appreciate how to make the
transition from the pond into the waterfall trough. Currently the pond
which is approximately 25' long 15' wide and 6' deep at the
center, drains through an 8" PVC pipe installed vertically and
elbows under the dam to drain into the existing stream bed.
<A good idea to "sleeve" this overflow... to direct water
and solids from the bottom of the water column... cut some notches in
the larger diameter pipe's bottom... and slip it over the 8",
a couple inches higher in height...>
This keeps the water level from overflowing the earthen dam.
<Good>
I intend on constructing a concrete trough, roughly 3' wide and
12" deep over the top of the dam and using a liner underneath and
down the waterfall path. The top of the dam is about 6' across
before the fall starts of about 20 feet in length at an angle of
approximately 45 degrees back into the existing small stream bed. My
concern is where the pond meets the trough.
I was told not to extend the waterfall liner into the pond since water
will be able to leak under the liner,
<This is so... capillation will/would work here to weaken the
earthen dam...>
so I plan to start the liner about 3' back (under the concrete)
from where the pond meets the mouth of the trough.
I intend on using plastic cement with wire grid or rebar to cover the
trough and waterfall.
<With the water level lowered...>
I am unsure on how to construct the "mouth" of the
trough.
<And I am hesitant to encourage your doing so w/o more substantive
information>
Any suggestions on how to form the mouth of the trough to prevent
leakage or erosion under the cement would be greatly appreciated.
<Well...>
Also I will extend the 8" PVC pipe to just above the water level
to act as an overflow during heavy rains since this small creek can
turn into a small torrent at times.
<A very good idea... I would have two such egresses, both
sleeved>
Appreciate your suggestions.
Alan
<Do understand my alacrity here... and direction in encouraging you
to have a soils engineering firm up to review your situation in detail.
At the worst, what might be the consequence of the earthen dam giving
way all at once? Are there weir dams distal? I would be very hesitant
to modify the existing berm myself. Bob Fenner>
Re: Natural pond to waterfall transition construction?
6/18/09
"<Do understand my alacrity here... and direction in
encouraging you to have a soils engineering firm up to review your
situation in detail. At the worst, what might be the consequence of the
earthen dam giving way all at once? Are there weir dams distal? I would
be very hesitant to modify the existing berm myself. Bob
Fenner>"
Thanks for the reply Bob. The berm has been in place for about 3 years
with no problems having the water drain through the PVC pipe. Just want
to install a waterfall over the top for aesthetic reasons. Am a little
confused about your question "Are there weir dams distal?"
not sure what that is.
Can you elaborate on that?
<Yes, gladly. Am inquiring re mechanisms that might prevent damage
further downstream, one such are weir dams... See the Wiki coverage
here... IF you were to build such an overflow/fall, I would only do so
with emplacing concrete buttresses beyond the "edges", sides
of the present dam... My fear is that anything less could become
unstable with the wetting of soil that will occur with the liner
emplacement. BobF>
Thanks again,
Alan
Re: Natural pond to waterfall transition construction?
6/18/09
Bob,
Certainly appreciate your input, thanks again for taking the time to
respond so promptly.
Alan
<Happy to be of assistance Alan... I do wish we could do summat of
the equivalent of a "distal Vulcan mind-meld"... so that I
might more fully understand the project there. Again, as it's
likely abundantly obvious, I shy on the side of ultra-conservancy when
it comes to matters of potential great harm. Best, BobF>
pond construction, shape... liner use 6/6/09
Bob,
I'm building a raised formal geometric shaped koi pond.
<Mmm, beware of "tight corners"... for your fishes
(Nishikigoi "panic" at times when "caught in corners),
as well as circulation and all it entails reasons>
Concrete block walls with sand/cement hard bottom and liner.
Questions;
#1....in regards to the liner, is it possible to cut it into sections,
align them (with overlap) and "weld" or bond them together to
make a form-fitted liner in order to avoid unsightly wrinkles and
folds?
<Yes it is possible. Do be sure to check re the type of
material/solvent
for welding (we used tetra hydro furane for PVC for instance)>
I'm a fairly "handy" guy and I'm not afraid to try
anything at least once!
#2.... I plan to install a VERY heavy cast concrete statue (fountain)
in the middle of the pond, with its base just below water level,
resting on an "island" of concrete blocks (4 ft pond depth).
My thoughts are these;
poured concrete footer, an underlayment, liner,
<Mmm, the underlayment first... perhaps a piece of carpet... then
the concrete...>
then concrete block "island" mortared above, and of course
the statue on top. Obviously an enormous amount of weight. Any advice
here? Thank you in advance.
Rob
<Enjoy the process. Bob Fenner>
Underlayment alternative??? 5/17/09
Hi Bob, first of, great site. Thanks very much for all the insightful
info.
<Welcome Robb>
Now to my underlayment question, I have a small surplus of very thin
(1/4 inch Styrofoam sheeting I was thinking of using for the
underlayment base of my pond. Do you see anything that would be
unadvisable before doing this?
<Mmm, no... other than the Styro will compress, perhaps allowing
something sharp to penetrate? If you don't have such sticks, stones
underneath/twixt, I'd not worry re though>
Thanks for your insight!
Best, Robb
<And you, Bob Fenner>
Re: Underlayment alternative??? 09/19/09
Thanks Bob, I will send you a picture when I get it all done. I am
pretty happy with the results so far.
<Ahh, thank you Robb. BobF>
|
Pond liner toxic? 7/7/08 Hi, I recently purchased a
45mil EPDM "fish friendly" pond liner from the Pond
Depot (Ponddepot.com) for a 4000 gallon pond and set it up. So
far, my fish keep dying on me (3 to 4 Koi and goldfish at a time
to see if they survive). It takes 3 or 4 days, but they all
eventually die. The pond is 4 feet deep for about half of it, but
has high sun exposure and has been up and running for about a
month. <... is this system cycled? How filtered... oh, I see
this below> I am using a high powered filter and pump by Tetra
and have put plenty of dechlorinator, etc. in the water. I have
an identical pond that's 4 years old and supports fish just
fine. It has the same filter, pump, maximum depth, and sun
exposure, only it's 2000 gallons deep and uses
firestone's 45 mil EPDM pond liner. My question is if my
liner is "toxic" despite its label as being fish
friendly. How would I test something like that? <Mmm, a
bioassay likely... as you are actually doing> Pond Depot says
it's fish friendly, but I'm at a loss here. This is a
real chore (and very expensive) to just "switch to a new
liner", there must be some way of knowing if it's toxic.
<EPDM is non-toxic... Something else is at play here... I
would dump the water out, re-fill with water from the
old/established system, wait a month, allow this system to
stabilize, and try some fish from a known-healthy source. Bob
Fenner>
Re: pond liner toxic? Bob, thank you for your prompt
response to my concerns. I feel better about the liner (dreaded
the thought messing with that) and will continue to try and make
this pond a success. -Martin <Thank you Martin. Do please
relate to us later how this turns out. Bob Fenner>
Re: pond liner toxic? -update 8/16/08 Bob. You were
right, it wasn't the liner. Something toxic had most likely
gotten into the pond the first time. After draining it and
starting over, I have a functioning pond! Thanks again. <Ah,
thank you for this update. There are a few principal ways
contamination can get into ponds... run-off, sprays and
fertilizers from surrounding landscape... Even "bug
sprays" from not very close... I remember times when folks
would call our service co. in a tizzy asking what was going on
with their pond fish... I'd tell them "lick your finger
and stick it in the air"... and walk/run in the direction of
the incoming wind... Extermination co.s... Bob Fenner>
|
How to Affix Pebbles to Sides of Rigid Plastic
Liner 04/22/08 Hello, Crew: <Angie> We have a rigid
pond liner from Lowe's - kidney shaped, approximately 6' x
3'. After sustaining a bullet hole last summer, midway down, the
pond developed a leak. <I'll bet!> We removed the pond and
treated the outside with a gallon of asphalt roofing sealant, paying
special attention to the hole. <Mmm, won't "do it">
On the inside, we would like to affix pebbles from the lip down to the
plant shelf in the hopes that this will offer a more natural look on
the sides when the water level is low due to evaporation, etc. I have
been told not to use the roofing asphalt as "grout" due to
fish toxicity. We plan on having only a few goldfish and water plants.
Is there another inexpensive product that will adhere the pea pebbles
to the rigid plastic? Cost is a major factor. Thank you very much for
your expertise, A. <I'd look about (maybe Pier 1 Imports) for
some of the "already affixed" material that I've seen
sold as "place mats"... Last time was in Laguna Beach, CA
(last week) at a gift shop... and cut and hang this material that
already has these "wampum stones" affixed (I think with
"glue gun" material or some sort of serious epoxy. Otherwise,
you can try affixing them yourself... with the liner up, out, laid out
and dried... with 100% Clear Silastic... will take a while to set,
cure... Bob Fenner>
Pond liner exposure to winter weather 10/14/07
We drain our 4000 gallon pond and would like to leave it empty for the
winter. We want to leave it empty and then clean and refill it in the
spring. All fish and plants have been relocated to another pond. Will
this cause any damage to the pond liner since it will be exposed to
cold central Illinois weather? <Mmm, likely not IF this liner is of
butyl/rubber... EPDM or composite make-up of adequate thickness (30
mils or more let's say)... I might throw some straw on it to
prevent some possible damage by accrued snow, water/ice. Bob
Fenner>
Pond question - 8/17/07 Mr. Fenner- <Mr.
Agins> I recently installed a pond with approximate nominal
dimensions of 13'L x 16'W x 2.5' D. Because of the rounded
corners, and such, it is less than the 3900 gallons the dimensions
would imply, perhaps by 20%. So, let's say that it's roughly
3000 gallons. The pond is EPDM lined with EasyPro aquafalls at the
head, and skimmer on the wall opposite the waterfall. The waterfall
feeds a stream approximately 3'W x 10'L x 9"D. I am using
a PondMaster 5000 GPH mag drive pump. <Okay...> When I first
assembled everything, following the manufacturer's directions for
through-the-liner installation of the skimmer weir door, the water
level drained to exactly the bottom of the weir, leading me to conclude
that the weir connection was the culprit. <Likely so> I called
the supplier from whom I bought the materials, who told me that
silicone would not adhere to EPDM <This is correct> (contrary to
the manufacturer's instructions) and to use EPDM caulk for the
connection. When I called my local roofing supplier, they told me that
EPDM caulk is just a temporary material and, instead, to used a
particular waterproof EPDM tape. <If the space/gap is very small,
this may work...> I have applied this tape - very carefully, after
cleaning the EPDM liner with a solvent and rolling the tape with a
roller after application - but still notice a slow drop in water level.
I have checked the seam where the stream liner meets the pond liner and
have re-taped that junction, also. When I turn off the pump (which has
a check valve in the line to prevent backflow), the Aquafalls remains
full, leading me to believe there is no leak in the bulkhead fittings
or the flexible PVC connection to the Aquafalls. <Seems
reasonable> The run of flexible 2" PVC connecting the skimmer
to the Aquafalls is about 30' long and runs 8-10" below ground
level, in newly laid topsoil. I don't see any evidence of wet
ground around the path of the PVC tubing. Question (after this very
long preamble): Is it possible that the drop in water level could be
the result of evaporation? <Mmm, over how much time how many inches
of water? And then it virtually stops? It's the skimmer...> Any
help you could provide would be most sincerely appreciated. Thank you.
Richard Agins <Please send along a link to the actual product if you
can... and I will do my best to help you. Bob Fenner>
Re: Pond question, through-put/skimmer leak -
8/17/07 Here is the link to the skimmer - I have the small (which
isn't all that small):
http://www.justliners.com/easyproskimmers.htm and here is the link to
the extension tube: http://www.justliners.com/easyproextentube.htm
<I see... the material the "clamp mechanism's faces"
are made of is some sort of plastic... likely PVC sheet...> I
didn't mention that I installed the extension tube to the skimmer
using a double bead of silicone. <This is what I would have done as
well... a few "squigglies"/lines on either side, waiting ten
minutes or so...> Both the skimmer and the extension are made of a
resin or polymer of some sort, are rigid, and bolted together quite
tightly. <No need to be "too" tight> In response to
your question, 2-3 inch drop in water level in 2 days with the pump
running. I can't imagine that there isn't a reliable way to
make the skimmer connection without leaks. This has taken more time
than any other aspect of the construction. Thanks again. Richard
<And you've tried leaving the system w/o the pump running with
the same water loss I take it... 2-3 inches in two days is a bit
much... unless there is a good deal of splash, spray involved... and or
very dry/high winds... Myself, I would try taking this all apart (yes,
once again) and re-Siliconing both faces... and let set up for a day w/
the water low to let set. Bob Fenner>
Re: Pond question - 8/17/07 Thank you. I left
the pump off today. I'll review the situation when I get home
tonight to see whether there's been a further drop. Your advise is
much appreciated. <Real good. BobF>
Question regarding pond liner and UV
exposure. 6/9/07 Hi Crew, I tried to find the answers to my
queries all over the net and I couldn't find a good answer. <May
not be such...> Therefore, I'm writing you to get an expert
advice. I just built a 1800 Gal. pond (approximately) with underlayment
and liner. <What sort of liner? Material, thickness?> The pond is
28" deep at the maximum and 14' x 7' in length and breadth
respectively. I have covered the edge of the pond with stones ,as such
, the liners aren't exposed to the sun in any way. I was thinking
about covering the bottom of the pond with stones or gravel but
according to many experts on-line, this is not a good idea as the
debris gets trapped in the gravel or rock and creates an anaerobic
condition . <I agree> My question is; would the liner be safe at
the bottom of the pond underneath the water? <Safe from?> Some
website say that UV rays won't penetrate down beyond 1.5 mm inside
the water. When I did the research about UV rays, I found out they can
penetrate well up to 15-20 feet deep in water. What do you think i
should do to keep the liners safe from UV rays and maintain a healthy
pond? <Ultraviolet is not an issue here... but some types of liners
(Polyethylene) degrade over time w/o such exposure... and all liners
are subject to puncture... with rock, roots, shoes... See WWM re the
use of reinforcing mesh, concrete OVER such liners. Bob Fenner>
Re: PVC pipe cement to adhere patching material, not
reading... 5/31/07 Wow, thanks for the quick response. I say
the liner is PVC, because I described it (black on one side and green
on the other side - like flattened out garden hose) to a local
landscape/pond company and they thought it was PVC. <...> Does
the that description sound to you like PVC. I did try a test, and other
than a little shrinkage, it seemed to work OK. I'll check (bench
tested) it again at 24hrs post application. What kind of waiting time
to refill would you recommend. Thanks again for your timely response.
<Please read here:
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/PondSubWebIndex/linerpdrepfaqs.htm , and the
linked files above where you lead yourself. BobF>
Pond <repair> Question 5/11/07 I have
a 7000 +/-gallon pond with a waterfall and coping around the rest of
the area. This has been set up for about 5 years and from a biological
POV has been very successful. The problem we are having is the coping
stones are tipping into the pond. Although they are set in mortar and
grouted in between they are no longer stable. <Mmm,
wondering what became of the mortar base> I have spoken to my mason
who helped me build the pond and he said we could pin them in but we
have a EPDM liner. Do you have any suggestions to lock them into place.
Thank you for any advice you might be able to offer.
Michael Jove <I would lower the water level,
remove the present work and lay in a new mortar (actually I'd use
concrete and reinforcing mesh... chicken wire or stucco wire... that
you can cut with shears... let this set up for a day, and mortar the
coping stones with mortar the next day (maybe with a bit of lime or
white glue (the mason will know what I'm referring to...) to make
all a bit "stickier". Bob Fenner>
Re: Pond Question 5/11/07 Thank you for
responding so quickly.< I wish all consult/repair services were so
timely>. The mortar base is still there but because it is set on the
liner which has give I am sure that shortened its lifespan. Your
suggestion of either lath or a rebar equivalent is something we have
been mulling over and now will probably use.
Thank you once again. <Welcome... I have done such
repairs before... If the present mortar is substantially adhered to the
liner, I would just leave it there, remove the coping stones, re-sent
in a new foundation built over the present stuck-on mortar bed. Bob
Fenner>
Lifting boulders out of pond to patch flexible liner
- 03/24/07 Hi there, I am hoping you can help me
figure out what I need to do to levitate a big boulder so that the
flexible pond liner underneath can be repaired. (The
aftermath of a shady contractor.) I have thought about
using an engine hoist, but they are designed to be used on a level
surface and would not straddle the distance needed to be on the stable
banks about 6-8 feet wide. I have thought about a installing
a boat hoist outside the pond, as well. I have also thought
about (simply) rolling it out of the pond and banishing it to the
status of land-based rock feature outside the paradisal pond.
What think ye? Thanks, Jody <Mmm, first and foremost to
make cautionary remarks re smashed body parts... Remember thou art
mortal! Secondly to state that any movement of this rock, smooth or
not, may well tear your liner... So... Do get, place "carpet
remnants" or samples about one edge/side... and with lots of
coordinated, strong friends... with good backs... lift... with your
legs... the rock onto the aforementioned carpet... and scoot more of
the same under the edge just lifted... go over to the other side...
lift and scoot the carpet pieces further in... Am hopeful this rock is
not too large/heavy to allow this prep. work... IF there is sufficient
stability, AND room around the edges of this water feature... you may
be able to "chain" this rock (securely... with bolts,
washers, nuts twixt overlaying links... Tie all this to some sturdy
lumber of sufficient length to straddle the pond... re-locate those
friends we listed before... and brute-strength, lift this rock out...
more carpet pieces laid out in the direction the rock will cover is
recommended... DO be careful... and please write back if this rock is
too "round", heavy... there are other possibilities. Bob
Fenner>
Re: lifting boulders out of pond to patch flexible liner
- 03/25/07 Hi Kind Crew, Thanks for the prompt reply and
the caveat about the squish-crunch factor (ah, the endoskeleton!)
<And meso and exo...> The good news is that
there's plenty of room around this flat-ish boulder which is
sitting on a @ 10-inch high 'pedestal' of stacked pieces of
recycled concrete although it is about 4 inches below the level of the
bank. Would it be feasible to place beefy timbers at
sufficient width on both sides of the boulder (with liner gathered up
like skirts so timber guides rest on dirt) and slowly, carefully....
many chains, bolts, overlaying links strong backs and many tamales
later... <Don't forget promise of cold brewskis later...>
have the damn thing out of the pond never to return again? <Yes...
Do bear in mind... a useful "rule of thumb" that the rock
likely weighs about 200 pounds per cubic foot... and do
"loosen" it from its perch... likely with a crow-bar or
two... or metal pry bars, digging "sticks"... ahead of
attempted lifting> I could also gather the skirts pad
with carpet, pack dirt around the boulder, in effect drawing the
shoreline closer, and roll the thing over and over and away. Given the
thus exposed loosey goosey liner (all rocks, plants, water removed,) I
would plan to install many layers of liner to prevent further episodes.
<One good one should do it... Tetra's 32 mil... or a nice, thick
EPDM/Butyl...> The contractor used an old rubber-backed rug as
cushion on the upper part of the pond, but none beneath this section of
the pond which houses the mammoth rock, doh! <Indeed> Nothing
like experiential learning, ahem! <Mmm, I'll cut the first-hand
experience here m'self> What are the other
options? This is about a 1-ton rock, <Oh.... really too
big... heavy... see below> originally placed with a back hoe...
<Can you get one of these back there? W/o too much damage?> The
distance from one side of the pond to the other where there is stable
ground is about 14 feet, larger than I would've eyeballed it to
be. So 14 feet is the distance any contraption would have to
span in order to levitate the rock. <... ohhhh> So
the challenge is to lift it about 6 inches, let's say, and
potentially move it about 6 feet to the bank and possibly leave it out
permanently. <Mmm, yes> It could look just as pretty at the edge
of the pond. When this rock is no longer there and there is
in effect a swimming hole in the pond, do you think that having a layer
of rocks, sand and gravel on the bottom would pose a great friction
problem should a certain pond-wader find her way into the water when it
is 112 thousand degrees outside in summer here in Pasadena, CA? -Jody
<I would "cushion" the entire bottom where the liner will
rest... Actually, having been involved in a couple hundred such
installs... let me "cut to the proverbial chase" here and
state that I would definitely NOT make this just a liner pond... but
use the liner (as we used to) as the underlayment... Later on this...
The rock I would actually "bury"... too big, much trouble to
move... not likely easy to break up in place... I would dig a hole near
it... and roll it over, in essence, bury the thing under the future
pond... And make the pond as detailed here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/PondSubWebIndex/Pond%20Sub%20Web.htm
The second tray... Concrete and Liner Pond Construction... Read and
heed. Bob Fenner>
Re: lifting boulders out of pond to patch flexible liner
03/25/07 Hi Bob, Thanks for the link to the
website. Well, the rock, though 3 feet across, 4 feet wide,
and about 18 inches high, must not be a ton b/c it's now sitting
pretty on the bank of the pond. (Two crow bars and three
strong backs later.) <Very strong...> I will purchase
the underliner and cushion the liner with a double layer of the
underliner fabric. Is it necessary to have more cushion,
such as sand, given that the dirt beneath is FREE of roots, gravel, and
other disturbing bits? <Mmm, no... good insurance though... as is
staying out of the pond yourself> And.. I will simply
not use the pond to wade in, and that's that. <Heeeee!>
Thanks so much for being available and sharing your hard-earned pond
wisdom with me! -Jody p.s. I will read again your section on container
ponds b/c I have a couple of barrels with black plastic liners (like
stock tanks) that I could aqua-fy to good effect. <Ah, good.
BobF>
Pond Liner Lifts 2/20/07 Good Day, <And to
you> I have searched through your great site and, unfortunately,
have been unable to find any information pertaining to our
problem. Our outdoor pond is 8' x
11". It is 3' deep at one end, 2' at the
other. The pond has a liner. During our rainy
season ground water seeps under the pond and lifts the liner so a lot
of pond water drains away. <Yikes... really need to make a drain
away from this "underneath" area... to even lower ground...
rely on gravity is best... a pump with a float switch if need be>
When the ground water dissipates, the liner drops and the pond needs to
have water added. This has been a problem since we purchased
our house ten years ago. The liner now has holes
<Yikes...> and we need to install a new liner ASAP as we have
loads of fish temporarily housed in an upper pond which is too small
for the long-term. We are currently working on replacing the liner but
we can't seem to get the area to dry out. We have the
pond drained in the afternoon and then next morning there is a foot or
more of water in the deep end. <Yes... same sort of situation,
challenge as above... need to either have a purposeful drain, or set up
an automated (electrical) pump/switch...> With the water constantly
coming in, we are not sure if we can install the new liner and achieve
a good close fit. <Not likely, no...> Do you have any
ideas or suggestions how we can properly install a liner and/or resolve
our lifting liner problem? (We live near the ocean and there
are numerous underground streams making their way from the mountains to
the ocean.) <Ah, yes...> Thank you kindly for you time and any
assistance you can offer. Margaret Maringgele <Mmm, if you had a
small pump, you might be able to "sink" this into the ground
next to the existing hole (digging), place the pump in a plastic
bucket... and allow it to pump out the water while installing the new
liner... but really the only permanent fix is the drain or automated
pump/switch mentioned. Bob Fenner>
Re: Pond Liner Lifts
2/20/07 Bob, <Margaret> Thank you so much for
your quick response and possible solutions. My proposed
solution, involving dump trucks and fill, wasn't well received by
my husband. <Yikes!> Hopefully he'll like your ideas better
and we'll have a liner that stays on the bottom of the pond. <I
hope so!> Margaret <BobF>
Sealing EPDM liner to cement...
possible, but messy 2/19/07 Hi, Bob <Eric> I am
redirecting an existing waterfall through a narrow gap between two very
large hard to move boulders into a new creek, so I need to link between
two sections of EPDM with concrete between them (concrete to serve as
"pond liner" within the narrow 3"-4" gap between
boulders and extend several inches out in both directions. I do not
want liner to be visible in gap between boulders. Can I bond the liner
to the smooth cement with asphalt emulsion UNDER the water level?
<Mmm... possibly... a real mess though... wear your absolutely worst
clothes... very long, up to the elbow and beyond... "ladies"
dishwashing gloves or similar for chemical handling...>
If not, what's the best adhesive? <This really is
(amongst what is widely available) the best material... there are a few
formulations... You want the very "viscous" material...
likely labeled for roof patching...> Or alternatively, if I were
able to dress the EPDM thru the crack between the boulders, how can I
seal it to the rock BELOW the water line? <A VERY good idea to do
this at the "low water level" time of the year... BEST by far
to divert or dam the water for a day...> Asphalt emulsion ,
construction adhesive calk, RTV calk, polyester resin??? <Only the
first will work IMO> If I go the cement route, is there risk the
bond between cement liner and the boulders will crack from settling or
whatever creating a leak? <Always, yes... best to fit this with
large, well-shaped rock... and fill the gap (best to actually make a
"form" first, and build to fit closely OUTSIDE the system),
with a very fast settling cementaceous product like Thoro's
"Water Plug"...> Perhaps I should cast in a 1/2" gap
between the concrete and boulders on each side and calk it with
flexible sealant like that used on swimming pool decks? <Bingo! A
wise choice> Thanks, Eric <Welcome, Bob Fenner>
Re: sealing EPDM liner to cement 2/20/07 Bob,
thank you very much for the invaluable advice. Amateur on this end.
Regards, Eric <We are all amateurs at all things at one time...
Welcome! BobF>
Pond Liner I'm just starting my outdoor
pond. The pond is built on cement floor and surrounded by
cinder block wall as an extension of my planters. What
adhesive can I use to adhere the liner to the cinder block walls?
<Mmm... would be best to "capture" the loose edge under a
cap if still possible... mortared over the edge with plastic cement,
thin-set and Acrylmix... If you can't do this, please write back
and we'll talk. BobF, leaving Houston>
What type of liner to use 7/24/06 Hi Bob,
<Craig> I'm getting ready to dig a hole and I am a little
confused with the different synthetics that go into the liners. Some
background. My 4000 gallon pond needs a
liner. Which of the liner material would you recommend -
EPDM, PVC and HPDE/LPDE? Thank you, Craig <Mmm, here: http://wetwebmedia.com/PondSubWebIndex/linerspdconst.htm
and the linked files at top. My preference (by L'Oreal?) is in the
order you present these. Bob Fenner>
Will blocks cut the pond
liner 5/29/06 Bob, We are building a pond using
blocks. The pond is 15 x 25. Will the top of the
blocks cut the liner over time? We will be using 42 mil liner then
"topping" it with flag stone. Thanks. <You
should be fine here... this sort and thickness of liner is VERY
tough... I would first lay-in the liner (w/o mortar), fill the pond,
place the flagstone... allow all to sit for a few days... see if this
is about what you're looking for... remove the flagstone, trim the
liner where it is overlapping over the outside of the flagstone... and
re-place, mortar it in place... with or without reinforcing mesh
(Leaving the cap non-mortared is too likely to lead to pieces falling
in, this potentially puncturing the liner. Bob Fenner>
Sealing
edges of rubber liner fix 12/21/05 Hi, I live in
NC and purchased 10 beautiful acres with a 50 year old, 1 acre pond on
it. It is filled with runoff water. When It rains it fills up nicely ,
then after a few days the water level drops about 2-3 feet. I see where
the water drains out on the backside of the 20 ft. wide dam. Large
trees sat on top of the dam and spillway which I recently cut down. I
do know the reason for the leaking is the large caverns these roots
have caused. I can't afford to redo the whole pond and a farmer
suggested laying a piece of 10' X 100' rubber liner across the
dam area and down below the surface a few feet to stop leakage or cover
holes. My question is, once I put this down and secure it with rocks
here and there, won't water just seep under it around the edges and
the leaking will continue just as bad as before? <Likely so, yes>
Do you think this might slow it down to a natural leakage pace?
<Doubtful...> By the way I do know cutting down the large trees
will cause the roots to die and make more ways for water to escape, but
the amount of leaves falling into the pond each year is tremendous and
trees and root systems were hanging out over pond ready to one day fall
in. I'm sure the leakage and/or holes is below the root balls
sticking out. Please help, the few fish remaining need some deeper
water to survive. Becky <Mmm, I suggest you "let your fingers
do the walking"... have some local contractors (likely to be found
under "landscaping" in the Yellow Page Directory)... and have
them tell you your options. Maybe a clay-based material can be dished
into your "over-burden" (the unconsolidated material on the
pond bottom), or this overlain over the base of the liner on the dam...
Bob Fenner> sp;
Pond Liner attaching to existing concrete block wall
11/12/2005 Bob, First, I'm a big fan of your books. Even though
I've never meet you I've heard a lot about you when I used to
work at Octopus's Garden. <Ahh, and Ron now has a much larger,
very nice outlet... on Convoy> I have been in the Reef Tank Hobby
for 4 years now and have a nice setup that is thriving because I
followed your advice found in your books. I am now putting in a
3000 gallon pond in my backyard. The hole is dug <The hardest
part...> and the liner has been shipped. The problem I have is that
the liner has to attach to a the cement block wall of my garage. What
method would you suggest I attach it to the wall with. I plan on
attaching that side first and leaving the rest able to adjust and
settle when I start to fill the pond. Thanks, Dave MacLeod <A bit
messy, but the simplest means here is to "glue" the liner to
the block wall face (well above the water line) with asphalt
emulsion... don't wear your good clothes... do wear gloves and have
rags, gasoline to clean up handy... Alternatively, much more liner can
be sacrificed by having this go up above the block wall and a cap
placed over it, on top... and the facing of the wall, liner, concealed
in some way. Cheers, Bob Fenner>
| Tom's new pond, WWM Thanks 8/31/05 Bob, just
wanted to take a minute to express my appreciation for all your
time and patience with me over the past few months concerning my
new Koi Pond. <Welcome> I realize you go through hundreds of
emails a week and may not remember the exact
"conversations" we've had. But suffice it
to say that I appreciate all that you and your crew do! <A
pleasure, duty and what we like to do> Thanks to your advice and
all the articles and FAQ's here, the pond has become a
reality. I still need to back-fill the ditches for the
plumbing, install the "siding" around the outside, and
get the gravel in the filtration compartment, but just wanted to
send along a couple of pictures and my heartfelt thanks. Here are a
couple of links to the pond if you're so inclined: http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y195/navajo001/pond101.jpg
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y195/navajo001/pond102.jpg
<Good liner wrap and wood construction job!> http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y195/navajo001/IMGA0078.jpg
<Some very nice quality koi... do keep your water level down a
bit to discount their jumping out> There IS one last question I
couldn't find the answer to anywhere. The pond is
approximately 1500 GAL plus whatever is in the filtration
compartment. Will I experience much of a cycle in there
with only 4 small fish? <Not much, perhaps not noticeable> Or
will the water volume be enough to "handle" the nitrogen
cycle with little impact? <Should be fine. Can monitor if
you'd like> I did go ahead and place a filter sock with
media from their canister filter in the waterfall just in case, but
not sure if that was needed. <A good idea> As always, Thank
You for your time and dedication. Tom (The Tool Man)
<Congratulations on a job well done Tom. BobF> |
| Tom's new pond 8/31/05 Thanks, so much, for
the "atta boy"! HA! I have actually lowered
the water level since the pictures were taken, but I still
don't think it is enough. When the fish swim up
close to the edge, I still get butterflies thinking how easy it
would be for them to jump out. <Koi can shoot out like veritable
Polaris missiles when rambunctious> How far down from the top
would you suggest? Would 6" or so be
enough? <At a minimum... am given to understand you
intend to "build up the berm" with some sort of
landscape/surround...> I know that if they are determined to
jump or get spooked, all bets are off. Just trying to
find a happy medium (as with most everything in this hobby!) Once
again, thank you for your patience and dedication. Tom (The Tool
Man) <Welcome... in time the fish will generally "learn not
to jump", but in new systems, with shallow sloped edges (not
like yours), sharp corners (like yours), they can/do easily jump
out if spooked, excited. Bob Fenner> |
|
|
Have you heard of a powdered pond liner 8/17/05 I would like
to know what this product is and how to use it. If you have any
information on it. I would appreciate it. Thanks, Sylvia <Mmm, there
are materials like powdered lime, clays that are sometimes (though less
frequently as time goes by) turned into existing soil to make a
water-proof or more water-proof barrier... What is the application
here? Something very large? Bob Fenner>
Re: Have you heard of a powdered pond liner 8/20/05 This
stuff looks like sugar granules. You just put it in the pond and
circulate the water. And it stops the leaks. I put it in the pond today
and the water looks like syrup. I sure hope it settles. Sylvia
<Yikes, I sure hope you read the instructions, precautions. Bob
Fenner>
Leaking 25ml polyethylene liner 8/17/05 Hi crew, I've had
a leaking pond for 7 years. It is made of 25 ml polyethylene and I know
where the leak is at. I have tried to clean it very carefully and
re-tape it with 6" tape from the company I bought the liner from
several times. The tape has worked great except for one place. It is on
the north side of the pond and it almost never dries out. What type of
solvent is best for cleaning the liner to prepare it for tape? <...
alcohols are about the safest, most thorough...> I have been using
rubbing alcohol, since it dries so fast, but I'm
thinking there must be some type of solvent that is specifically suited
for polyethylene. Also since the area that has to be re-taped has many
curves and 25 ml polyethylene is so rigid is there a better
material that can be used to go over the polyethylene, but will stick
to it. <Not as far as I'm aware> My pond is approximately
120'x30'x9'deep. Replacing the entire liner is out of
the question, it has a shelf all the way around it with rock
placed in the shelf and a rock walkway all around the top of the pond.
I have spent literally hundreds of hours of my time getting it to this
point. The repair has to be made in place. If you can give
me some suggestions I would greatly appreciate it. Dynamite is my next
option. HELP Thanks in advance Tim <I wish I had better news for
you, but there is nothing that I'm aware of that will help, or
repair a polyethylene liner... One of the reasons I am so opposed to
their use in biological ponds, basins. Please read here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/PondSubWebIndex/linerspdconst.htm
Bob Fenner>
Re: leaking 25ml polyethylene liner 8/17/05 That
sure made my day, your site is a great source of info. thanks <Am
very sorry for your troubles... we replaced many "poly"
liners over the years... no fun, to put it mildly. Cheers, Bob
Fenner>
Lessons in liner differences... some are toxic to pond
life 8/5/05 We are new to the Koi Hobby, and just built our 1st
pond in May, we have had 7 fish since July, but developed a
slice our current liner, so we had men come out and put in a new PVC
Blue liner, <Is this a swimming pool product? Some are treated with
chemicals that are undesirable for biological systems> We moved the
fish to a large horse tank for 3 weeks, while we went bigger
and deeper with the pond. we went to our first Koi Pond tour, and got
new info and designs. <Ahh! An "eye-opener"... which
invariably folks wish they'd done before setting up...> Needless
to say, they finished installing the new liner on Sat, July 30, and we
got the filters going, the water was clear on Tuesday night,
and water test are good, so the fish were transferred back to the pond.
We came out on Wed night and the small fish were dead, The
large one was still doing ok, swimming around. We took the water in for
testing on Wed night, and all the water tests are normal. I
questioned the oxygen, it is a 1800 gal pond. But that came
within limit, he indicated that bigger fish would have died first if
not enough oxygen. <This is so> The water filters completely 2
times a hour with the pumps/filters. Today the large Koi is
dead. The pond people said that maybe the liner is toxic,
<Yes> How can we Tell, the liner people
said it is non toxic. <Non toxic to what? Swimming
humans... you can "do a bioassay" with water taken from the
exposed liner, or soak a piece of the liner in water that you know
otherwise to be okay... or ask to see the manufacturer's
information re this liner... or take the liner to a QA lab...> We
have well water, have added nothing except Koi
Clay. He gave us black crystals to put in a hose and put in
the outlet water, to capture any toxins. <...?>
Help!! My husband is terribly upset as are the
children. If it is the liner, how can we fix it?? <Can
either wait, see if time going by, perhaps chemical filtration will
remove... plasticizers, anti-mildew/algal material... or remove, or
place a non-toxic liner over this in turn...> If
it is the liner, can it be treated, so we do not have to tear it
out, does it wear off? <Likely the latter does occur...
but how long...? Bob Fenner> Carolyn
Lake liner 7/9/05 Hi-
<Hello there> I stumbled upon your great site and Im hoping you
can help me out. My boss is planning to build a rather large
lake on his mountain side property here in Ojai. The lake
dimensions are 200x100x150 and were trying to determine the best type
of liner to use. The soil in the mountainside is rather
impermeableweve had difficulty passing perc tests because the ground is
so hard. Our contractor and ranch foreman recommend using a
30 mil PVC liner, but my boss is hell-bent on using a clay liner.
<Mmm, I'm much more inclined to go with the PVC>
How much would a clay liner run on a lake this size?
<... depends on the make-up of the current basin bottom... a mix of
material has to be dished in... Likely cheaper by far than the PVC>
Is it even worth using? <Yes...> Hes talked about
bentonite and gunite. Thanks for your input! <Not the
latter... very expensive. I would have a few of the "lake
consulting" and construction firms come out, bid this job. Bob
Fenner> Emily Warmann
Repairing a pond liner, literacy HI, We
have a pond in our back yard that has a rubber like stiff liner. And it
has a leak. Is there anything I can use to repair it.
thank you Marty Soloman <Please
see WWM re... the Pond Subweb... Liners... Depends on the make-up of
the material, the nature of the tear... Bob Fenner>
Concrete
block pond construction I have read with great interest (and
thanks) your section on building a pond with concrete block. The walls
will be concrete block and I am going to use an EPDM liner. How does
one attach the liner to the block under the coping? <Basically,
liner is underlain twixt the topmost course of block and whatever
you're using as a cap (likely more cementatious material or rock,
mortared in place. A good technique is to slowly fill the pond without
this cap, pulling the liner in place to flatten out, leaving it almost
all the way filled to assure a good fit while applying the cap. Bob
Fenner>
Custom-shaped pond liner Do you know of any companies
that make custom shaped pond liners? <Yes> I am building a 600g
indoor water feature (for Koi) in my new office. It is oddly
shaped and five-sided, about 3 ft deep, and I was wondering if I could
get a 3 dimensional pond liner custom made to fit it rather than face
the creases caused excess liner? Thanks very much... Jeff <Umm, the
companies that fabricate liners consider this size piece a scrap... You
are best off buying a small liner (I really like the Tetra product for
consumers making liner-only systems), and folding, cutting it to fit...
these do come in a few sizes. Maybe see Tetra's site re. Bob
Fenner>
Pond liner in tank Situation: Excellent site with
good faq's but mine is a bit specific... Built a plywood tank and
used pond liner (instead of epoxy), and sealed it up with GE 1200
Silicone. (I got it from a tank builder so I assume its
aquaria safe). <Is, but doesn't adhere well to
liners> I just poured RO water and after 2 days the water started
clouding a bit. Is this a result of the silicone?
<Nope> Is this normal and will running the water through carbon
clear it up? <Is normal, carbon will help... but really the
"system" needs to cycle... this takes a few weeks... can be
sped up... a "break-in" biological period.> Right now the
water is just standing with no movement. <Better to recirculate
it> Or, is the EPDM pond liner giving something off.... I assume the
liner is safe to use for fish seeing as they use it for
ponds.... Do I need to prepare it before use? Please help!
Thanks Lee <EPDM is very safe... Please read on WetWebMedia.com re
cycling of aquariums... the same series of events occur in all aquatic
environments. Bob Fenner>
Seaweed ponds Hi. <Hello there> We have
built 2 (50 x 20 metre) ponds for a trial in seaweed production, using
saline groundwater. At present the ponds are not lined, but
I feel that they are leaking and could cause environmental
problems. As our local black plastic (polythene) comes in 50
x 4 metre rolls we will have to join 5 large sheets
together. How would you suggest this could be
done? Maybe they could be heated together!! <No my
friend. Our companies (among other ornamental aquatics work) designed,
installed and maintained large water features, including seaming
nominal 20 mil PVC... we also bought and installed Butyl Rubber, EPDM
and other liner materials as underlayments... but never Polyethylene...
even the types that are treated to resist "aging" and sun are
disappointing... too short effective time spans, too easily
punctured... and NO (unless technology has changed...) means of welding
(sonic, solvents, heat...) sheets together. The only good things about
Polyethylene is that it's cheap and readily available. I encourage
you to look into other liner materials. Bob Fenner> Thanks Charlie
Gillingham Lake Charm Victoria Australia
Question on
toxicity of pond liner repair I have a question. I have a 100
gallon pond set up in my remodeled attic with some of the
smaller fish I bring in for the winter from my outdoor pond.
I had to fix a minor hole near the top of the plastic
liner. I was wondering if the epoxy glue that I used can
affect my fish in any way. Thank you for your
time. Len <Should be fine, non-toxic once the epoxy is
set-up/cured. Bob Fenner>
Pond Liner
Mr. Fenner, <John> How about 36 mil polypropylene for a pond
liner? This product is manufactured by Bend Tarp and Liner, Inc. as a
liner for holding ponds, etc. They will cut custom dimensions will
should be a plus because of the layout my pond will have. I won't
have to make any seams. It's also cheaper than many products
I've found. Thanks, John Jordan <I like PVC, EPDM, Butyl
Rubber... more for their stretchability and resistance to puncture
myself. Most any waterproof material will do however, if used under a
shell of wire-reinforced concrete... the best available,
most-appropriate technology in most applications. Bob Fenner>
Swimming pond 7/28/04 I have a large area where I would
like to put a pond. It has a natural spring that will feed
into it via a stream I built with 20 mil liner. I would like
to swim in it. What liner options would
work? Would I need more sand? The size of it
would be about15ftx20ft. Thank you for your help. Alysia, Asp
<The same (likely polyvinyl) 20 mil liner would likely work. Other
choices available include Butyl Rubber and EPDM (these are generally
more expensive though)... A few concerns to voice: Depending on what
the ground is like (sharp rocks, roots, invasive plants about...) you
might want to "jump ahead" and plan on either shotcreting
(over wire) the basin or at least the "bench" (edge)... if
not going the gunite route. Do have your water checked (unfortunately)
for possible human disease issues due to the source... and lastly, do
make provision to prevent vector problems (stock with mosquito
fish...). Bob Fenner>
Pond with a view Hello there, you have been so helpful with
my marine problems; I can't help share my pond concerns and thank
you in advance for your wisdom. I'm in the design phase of a pond
approximately 5000 gallons that will have a viewing panel in the
adjacent attached sunk in patio. My question is - how the heck to you
get a good seal on an acrylic view port that will be about 2' high
and 3' wide? Is Acrylic even the best material for outdoors without
direct sunlight? We are in Tucson and are hoping to go with a cichlid
pond as opposed to the Koi pond which is why we so desire a side view
into the pond. Thank you for your time. Bill Roh <I've done this
a few times years past. Best to have a "race" frame built,
pinch/fit your liner into this and nestle the viewing panel into the
frame with silicone. Bob Fenner>
Re: Question regarding pond liners Thank you for your
recommendations, I'll look at the postings for shotcrete. Since
I've written to you, we've interviewed a contractor who
suggested troweling a concrete underlayment under the rubber liner to
deter gophers. She is having to replace her mother's pond for that
very reason (gophers). <Not under, but over... please read through
the WetWebMedia.com site re pond construction en toto, particularly
with liners> The screen-wire mesh underneath the liner was to deter
gophers from chewing from below, but I don't think it would last
long before deterioration. Thanks, Linda <Bob Fenner>
>Question regarding pond liners >Dear Sir: >I found your
address on the WWM site, I hope you're the right person to ask
the question. >We live in SE Arizona, and want to build a pond with
waterfall feature for birds, and also encourage dragonfly and
damselfly larvae. We do not plan on fish other than maybe a few
Mosquitofish or similar. The size is about 20x10'. The local
pond builders recommend the EPDM rubber liners. We have deer and
also gophers. How do the liners stand up to these two mammals? We
could possibly have javalinas, although they haven't' been
in our yard in a year, they do live in the Huachucas. ><All
these mammals can easily puncture a liner of any material
with their claws, hooves> >If a screen-wire mesh is put
below the liner, it seems like it would rust out quickly.
><Don't understand what the rationale for this screen is...
we built many such ponds using liners (generally 20 mil nominal
PVC...) not often but sometimes using an underlayment of carpet...
to prevent outright puncturing of the liner during construction,
rock placement. Almost invariably we shotcreted over and into a
wire mesh >over the liner... I suggest you look into this
technology (posted on WetWebMedia.com) and do likewise. Bob
Fenner> >I appreciate your advice. >Linda Feltner
Vinyl Liner Ponds I got your email address from the website,
WetWebMedia.com. I was hoping you could point me in the right direction
for an article I'm working on for Pool & Spa News on How to
Install a Vinyl Liner Pond. I am looking for builders to interview who
can provide a step-by-step instruction on the construction on a vinyl
or rubber liner pond. I have a couple of builders I have spoken to
already, but need a few more to round out the story. <What I know,
have written is placed/archived on WetWebMedia.com> My deadline is
quite soon--Tuesday, January 27 at noon--so any assistance you can
provide will be helpful. Thanks very much. Janice Rhoshalle Littlejohn
<If you have specific questions, send them on to
crew@WetWebMedia.com Bob Fenner> Janice Littlejohn Pool & Spa
News www.poolspanews.com
Low cost operating pond pump 750 gal. Hi! I'm new in
ponds matters, and I'm building a pond of approx. 750 gallons. I
need your help. I need the best cost efficient pump for this size pond
and the best liner EPDM or the Tetra Pond Xavan liner? Thank you for
your help. <I'd look to the fractional horsepower
units offered as "Sequence Pumps" here if you can use their
smaller size/s... And the Tetra product is not inexpensive, but is an
excellent choice. Bob Fenner>
KOI Pond Construction Bob, This is Keith Slinkard ,
Eric's Father-in-law . <Hello Keith!> I have some question
about the mods that I am going to make to the design and enlarging my
fishes habitat. 1. I purchased Firestone EPDM liner and I am concerned
about the wrinkles that I think I will have . I think that I want to
shot crete over the EPDM ,but can not find directions as to what to do
with the wrinkles prior to applying the crete . <No worries... on a
nice warm day (careful not to lay the liner on your grass!) the
material becomes much easier to make folds in then> 2. The size is
as follows , 18' long X 8' wide X 2' deep with a 1' X
1' plant ledge around the perimeter. All walls are completely
vertical . I think this will add to the wrinkles and make the shot
crete application difficult. Should I angle them somewhat ? <No.
Best to try and make as vertical as possible... the wire and shotcrete
will conspire to make the walls and corners more sloped... In fact, a
good idea to use a lower slump concrete/shotcrete mix... and "lay
a bead" on the bottom corner seams in an attempt to "build
up" the mass of material... much easier than "pushing
up" the material after the concrete truck, applicator is gone>
3. I am going to change to a pond filter to like the one you exhibit in
fig.10 of your Aquatic Gardens book on page 10 . With the volume of
water that I need to move , do you suggest a dry pump, and if so what
size ? <Yes, not a submersible, and one with as small an
electrical current as you can get by on for the volume (at the head)
you're shooting for. Please ask Eric to show you the
"Sequence" series pumps... if memory serves they have a
nominal 1/5 HP unit that should work nicely on your application> 4.
Where do I place the supply line to the filter and how do I install it
through the liner material to insure a water tight fitting . <Mmm,
best to run the plumbing "inside" the liner, and up and over
the side of the system (a bit tricky to prime the first time but worth
it). Water for the intake should come from as far away from the return
as practical... and from the bottom as well as a side intake (a foot or
so down in the water), these with a valving manifold to isolate one or
the other (to vent water occasionally)> Thank you in advance for
your expertise and direction . Keith Slinkard
<Glad to help. Bob Fenner>
PVC liners hi--we're not creating a pond (have 2 clay
ponds already) but need to use pvc of 20 mm thickness to surround our
old house to prevent our major basement leaks. plan to bury
it to a depth of 12" then cover with gravel. I need a
piece(s) 6' x 40' -- where can I find such a
creature? thanks for your help--Lucinda <Can be done (one
of our old business (non-extant) used to fabricate such thickness PVC
liners for all sorts of purposes (even roof waterproofing on
buildings). I would contact the companies listed on our pond links:
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/PondSubWebIndex/pondlinks.htm
(Under manufacturers, etailers... and the clubs if any, in your area
that have members that may have bought such size shaped liners). There
are "scraps" of about the size you list that can be had, or
welded together... so keep checking till you find someone who is really
"in the business" or actually does fabrication. Bob
Fenner>
Rock-looking pond liner - anyone? I am looking for a pond
liner that looks like rock, not the normal black color. I
saw company was selling them, but I can not re-find its web
site. Do you have any info on such an item? <My apologies
(in lateness as well as failure) - I've searched and searched, and
simply cannot find what you're looking for. Hopefully
someone who does will see this and let us know, so we can pass it along
to you. -Sabrina> Thanks, Dave
Concrete gold fish pond I have asked this question to
everyone I can find that knows any thing about concrete or ponds. Now I
found this site so I will try you guys. Here goes : This summer I
uncovered an old kidney shaped pond in my yard. It is aprox. 4'
wide & 9' long. It now is about 30" deep , but appears it
should be 6" to 8" deeper to be above grade. Before it was
covered up who knows how many years ago, the top edge was broken off so
it could be covered with dirt. The walls are made of a concrete &
something mixture with 3" field stone mixed in for filler. The
inside walls are nice & smooth, coated with a light gray mortar
type material. My question is what is this concrete mixture? It seems
years ago I heard that concrete & vermiculite where mixed sometimes
to make a lighter & more workable mix. If that's true how do
you go about something like this ? Any other advice on a pond of this
material would be helpful! Thanks in advance .Steve from
Ohio <There are a few possibilities as to the mortar mix
that you describe, however only one tried and true "re-make"
possibility to ensure the watertightness of your refurbished pond.
It's detailed here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/PondSubWebIndex/concrepart.htm
Skip ahead and around to the pieces on liner use/construction. Bob
Fenner>
EPDM pond liner return channel... Good Afternoon, i would
like to install a pond utilizing an EPDM pond liner but have limited
room to provide a typical return for the end of the
liner. Does some sort of prefab, return channel system exist
or has anyone made one that works well? If so, what
materials did you use, etc. etc.? Thank you and i look
forward to your response. Regards, Carol <... A "return
channel" as in a way to run plumbing back sight unseen? You can
install a through hull fitting/drain through the liner and attach
plumbing to this and remote it where you want. Or do you want to affix
a channel as in a stream to your existing basin? This can be
accomplished by overlapping a section of liner over the side of the
existing basin... or there are other, mainly fiberglass streams, filter
boxes that can positioned adjacent to your pond. Some of these are more
fully discussed, illustrated on our pond subweb. The index to this is
here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/PondSubWebIndex/Pond%20Sub%20Web.htm
Bob Fenner>
Re: EPDM pond liner return channel... Hello Bob, Thanks for
the speedy reply! It's obvious I'm using the wrong
terminology...i need some way to secure the liner without draping and
securing the liner over the pool edge. The pool is
rectilinear in shape with vertical concrete pool walls. i
thought there may be some way to fasten an aluminum, u-shaped (?)
channel, or some other apparatus, that will hold the pool liner in
place above the water level. The corners are also going to
be a nightmare to be sure. Any
suggestions??? Thanks again Bob! Regards, Carol <Oh, I
see. Yes, there are ready-made tools and materials for what you want to
do. Use your phone directory... and if there is one in your area, under
"Swimming Pools" you will hopefully find a company that
installs and/or repairs vinyl swimming pool liners. They can show you
the "tricks of the trade" here. Bob Fenner>
Re: EPDM pond liner return channel... Good Morning Bob, You
are a life-saver! Thanks for the info and
support. I'm sure we'll find a solution now.
<Glad to be of assistance. Excelsior! Bob Fenner> Regards,
Carol
Pond fish dear crew, A fantail and a
comet goldfish in my pond seem to have white pimple like spots on their
gills. I am unsure at what this is, but i have heard this
could be related to spawning. Any ideas? <This time of the year
(Spring, warming) this is very likely the case. There are some pondfish
ailments (e.g. fish pox) that can look similar, but highly unlikely
here> When i was visiting Canada recently i saw a huge goldfish that
must have been released there. We almost caught it with our
net. I would have loved that fish for my pond. Also, next
year we are upgrading our pond to about 3000 gallons. What type of
liner would you recommend? <The thicker... at least 20 mil, the
better... butyl rubber or EPDM, but vinyl will do...> I am currently
using EPDM rubber, but if there is a better type i would like to know
about it. <Oh! This is fine. Bob Fenner>
thanks
Holden
| Re: LINERS TO GRANITE??? First off, THANK
YOU! I love your website! I came across your Pond
Articles & FAQ's page and havent stopped reading yet! Im
landscaping a development on a small island off the east coast of
Thailand and it seems every homeowner wants 2-3 water features on
their property! <Very nice> I have a lot of huge (and I DO
mean a LOT and HUGE!) granite boulders throughout the site and most
of the features will utilize these. <Have been to parts of
Thailand, the Similans... not yet to Koh Samui... but have seen
what you're referring to... BIG> I plan to use cement ponds
and streambeds with liners, but I want many of the boulders to be
exposed from the waterline on up so as to avoid unsightly cement
seams. My inquiry regards methods of sealing the liner to the
granite faces of these boulders. Have you come up with any
system/materials that would apply? I have been reading everything I
can from your site, but may have missed mention of such a
problem...please excuse me if you already answered this somewhere
else on the site! <No worries. We had some success with either
joining the liners to such rockwork on either their
"front" sides or if you can safely lift the rock, place
on the liner (with some cushioning below, like old carpet)
"behind" the rock, with the technique described on the
WWM site of attaching the liner to steel rod, coating with
masonry/concrete, or simply backfilling with soil.> Ill include
a few photos that show the boulders so you can get an idea of what
I mean. <Ah, yes> Thanks again! Shawn Mayes Nagalaya Co. Ltd.
Koh Samui, Thailand <Please make it known if this is unclear,
incomplete. Bob Fenner> |
|
|
LINERS TO GRANITE??? Apparently, you had some problems with
my reply in all caps, sorry about that... I'll try again... I'd
like some further elaboration on the first technique you mentioned,
(I.E. "We had some success with either joining the liners to such
rockwork on their "front" sides "), as these boulders a
far to large to lift. I'd be most interested in materials and
techniques/processes (i.e., do you have to grind the granite down to a
semi-smooth surface to get a good attachment or have you used some form
of thick liquid glue material? <Good idea to "acid/bleach
wash" (notes on WWM re) the rock that is being attached to, and
use asphaltous based material (like roofing "lap" cement) to
stick the liner to the rock (be careful applying, this stuff is messy).
For small jobs, using a chalk line and water level to find, measure the
upper reach of the liner, making a mark a few inches/centimeters above
this to give you an indication of where the liner is, perhaps using
caulking gun sizes of the lap cement to apply a bead of sealant (rather
than a open bucket and trowel for larger jobs) right below the lower of
the marks.... let the lap cement set-up for a day, trim the excess
liner... Bob Fenner> Thanks, Shawn
Pond Liner Leak Hey Crew, <Howdy> I have a
slow leak (About 100 to 150 gal. a day) in my reinforced woven 40 mil.
plastic pond liner. The pond is approximately 4,000 gal. I noticed this
problem after we had several days of cold weather in the lower 20
degrees. I am in S. GA. I drained the pond and repaired all the small
holes, etc., I could see. I checked the seams from end to end. There
are no leaks in the plumbing, UV, bio filter, etc. I still have the
problem. Do you have any suggestions?? Is there a sealant I can use?
Thanks, Charles <Unfortunately, theres no actual sealant that I know
of but do check out http://www.wetwebmedia.com/PondSubWebIndex/concrepfaqs.htm
as theres a lot of info on repairing leaky ponds there. Also do a
search at www.wetwebmedia.com
for pond liner leak or pond liner repair. Ronni>
Pond Liner Bubble We have a 1 acre pond which was lined with
a nice thick liner a while back. <Nice> In the past few days
however it has developed a 25' diameter bubble in the middle (see
attached picture). Any ideas on how to fix the immediate problem and
prevent a future recurrence? <Yikes... I wonder as to the cause...
the make-up of the gas itself... Some way needs to be devised to
install a vent...like a "sideways drilling" operation... a
pipe to the area directly underneath this bubble, water, liner... to
allow the gas to escape... Perhaps a well-drilling co. in your area can
help... If you had known of the gas problem, perhaps shaping the basin
to be more conical would have prevented this condition. Good luck, and
do have the gas checked... it could be something flammable. Bob
Fenner> Thanks, Glenn A. Hartzog
Pond shoreline design problem Hello folks <Cheers, my
friend> I have been referred to your site by someone who answered
one of the posts I have placed on several boards regarding this
problem. <welcome my friend. Do be sure to visit the home page at
www.wetwebmedia.com and navigate the links to our many articles and
FAQs. This is one of the biggest websites that you will ever see...
over 300 megs!> Before I ask my question I noticed someone with a
home made food question, could I refer you to
http://www.easyfishkeeping.com/fishyforum/forums/message.asp?r=forums&t=General&I=1040
I now know about WNV but my fry have more than doubled in size on this
diet in the past week. WNV is not a problem in the UK that I know of.
<outstanding... thanks kindly> Anyway to get to my question or
problem. Back ground first I have built( finished building last night,
just touch ups and this shoreline left) a concrete pond of aprox 2200
UK gal 2600 US gal. It has three depths, 4', 2', 1' and
vertical walls. I will be using a plastic liner, pvc or Dupont Xavan, I
can afford butyl. The pond is above existing ground level by 1' and
will have a visible wall on 2 sides, a hedge on the 3rd and a rockery
with waterfall on the 4th. I will 'line ' the concrete with
expanded polystyrene sheeting ( Styrofoam, I think ) to protect the
liner rather than use underlay. <indeed, many materials used here...
old carpeting, parched clay, rendered sand, layers of newspaper,
etc> BUT Basic outline of my problem. I want to cast, in cement or
concrete, a ramp on top of the upper coarse of block work to create a
semi submerged shoaling shoreline. I intend the ramp to start 2.5"
below the water surface and for it to rise to 0.5" above the water
surface, gradient 1 in 3. It is to allow animal access/escape to/from
the pond. <very nice> For the purposes of this post I am
concerned only with the construction problems, I have taken into
consideration my possible UNWELCOME visitors and here in the UK we
don't have the diversity of predators that exist in N. America, I
hope the rest of the pond design will keep my fish safe. <very
well> I see 2 ways of completing my shoreline 1) bring the liner up
over the ramp, or 2) bring the liner over the top of the inner leaf of
block work and drop it into the air space, then cast the ramp on top of
the liner and outer leaf . I favour the second method, it will be
neater and provide a better surface finish. Obviously I will seal the
ramp with some thing like G4 or P1 ( common UK sealants ) but I am
troubled by the "triple point" where water, liner and ramp
meet. <agreed as I am concerned too. There is also the concern of
longevity and repairs/replacement of the liner. The plastic and PVC
liners in particular have had issues with longevity and UV stability.
The latter method would not be at all forgiving if repair or
replacement needs addressed> How do I seal this properly? I had
thought of 'painting' the sealant across the junction and onto
the liner but I have been told that solvents in some solvent based
sealants may damage the liner, i.e. G4. <agreed> I can get
water based sealant which should be ok, P1. <yes... but I am still
not sold on the practicality of the design inherently> Other
solutions based on idea 2 are 1) In addition to the above run a bead of
silicone aquarium sealer around the "triple point" , possibly
in a rebate cast into the cement and cut out of the polystyrene
<poor adhesion to plastics particularly in temperate zones> 2)
Bring the liner up 'behind ' the back of the ramp so that the
liner finishes above water level, but this may create neatness issues
also it doesn't provide a secure foundation for the shoreline.
<actually I like this solution best thus far> 3) Cast the shore
line in sections, seal all of each section and then 'glue' it
down onto the liner with silicone aquarium sealer. <likely very
temporary (3-5 years before failure IMO)> One area I will have to
silicon goo is the folds in the liner where they pass over the block
work. Additions resulting from replies to my posts are 1) cast the ramp
in waterproof concrete, a simple idea that will help greatly, why
didn't I think of it and does away with "3)" above
<agree... hydraulic cement was the first thing that crossed my mind
above when I read "ramp in water". Quite durable in water>
2) cover the triple point with liner seaming tape. <also a temporary
solution in my opinion and unlikely to even see 5 years of service>
I would be very grateful for your thoughts on my problem and solutions
and for any ideas that you have. Thank you Sean McKinney <I
don't know if I've been much help, but I sure have enjoyed
hearing about your fascinating pond. With kind regards, Anthony>
Re: pond shoreline design problem Thanks for your reply to my
last email, <our pleasure> your point about liner longevity is
well noted, the adhesion of silicon goo to plastic hadn't occurred
to me, thanks for that, I have just had a trial run at liner
installation using 2 sheets of 6m x 4m polythene joined with brown
parcel tape to make a single sheet 6m x 8m. Judging by the folds I have
had to included I may well have to bring my liner " up behind the
back of the ramp " . Your favored solution. I very much doubt that
I could seal all the folds with the silicon goo. <agreed, my
friend... none else seem to be a good 5+ year solution for a liner that
is otherwise good for so much longer> Thanks for your input.
<with kind regards, Anthony Calfo, Wet Web Media>
Leaking Pond Liner Do you know of any product that can be
sprayed or painted onto an existing pvc liner to make it water tight?
The liner is only a few years old but it no longer holds water.
<There are no such "miracle cures" as far as I'm
aware... but most liners can be repaired pretty easily by solventing
(aka "welding") a new piece/sheet of material over the cuts.
Please read here:
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/PondSubWebIndex/linerspdconst.htm re
pond/liner construction... and the links, other files beyond. Is yours
a Butyl, PVC, EPDM liner? You will need to know this, and find a
compatible/matching material to anneal to it, and solvent to do so. Bob
Fenner> Thanks, Fiona Casarini
Pond Liner for Salt tank set up? Bob, First off LOVE THE
site!! Just found it and it's a wealth of info. I have a quick
question 4 yaw. I'm considering making a large salt tank and was
wondering if the normal pond liners would be ok for constructing a salt
tank used for sharks and rays etc..... If pond liner won't work is
there any other material other than the Rubbermaid tanks etc...... I
want an indoor pond but with sharks I figured the cheapest way to get a
6x12 tank would be to go pond liner.. Thanks and keep up the good work.
and thanks in advance. <You are welcome. I have built such
"shark tanks" (and more) out of pond liners (nominal 20 mil.
polyethylene ("water bed") types to 32 mil reinforced, EPDM,
Butyl Rubber... with good utility. The large Rubbermaid tm oval
"troughs" are also very useful. A note of caution: Do make a
complete, secure cover over either, as even apparently sedentary sharks
can/will launch themselves out... Bob Fenner> Regards, Robert C.
Taggett
Pond Advise Bob, I am assisting a landscape customer with the
installation of a water feature just off of her patio. It will be
concrete block with a veneer of brick to match the back wall on
property line against which the pool will be built. She has about 5
goldfish and prefers no plants. We plan to use an in-line pump with a
pressurized filter. A bottom drain will also be installed. Because my
client wants an interior color of aqua green, we decided to make the
concrete, rectangular structure and line it with a 30 ml aqua turquoise
liner. Will we need to treat or paint with a rubber paint the concrete
before we install the liner? Thank you for your help, Sally Rudisill,
Landscape Designer, Owensboro, KY <Sally, you will not need to treat
the concrete surface, however a padded underlayment is strongly
recommended between the concrete and the liner to reduce the likely
hood of small tears from the pressure of the occasional foot in the
pond, the weight of rooted plants in pots and the very weight of the
water itself. Tetra makes a commercial underlayment but many folks use
heavy felt to used carpeting just the same. Best regards, Anthony Calfo
in your service while Bob travels.>
Pond liner Please see our website at www.bendtarp.com for
information on the nation's best pond liner values. Please contact
us if you would like a color brochure with samples. <Mmm, will post
your company name, link on our general, pond links pages, articles on
using pond liners... and send your note along to friends/associates in
the trade. Bob Fenner, WetWebMedia.com> Thank you, Bend Tarp and
Liner, Inc. 1-800-280-0712
bendtarp@bendcable.com
PVC liners Please quote your best price for PVC liners, 20
mills thick, black color. The application is for irrigation canals.
<Gosh, haven't sold liners for ten years... Please do use your
search engines with the terms, "PVC Liner"... Bob Fenner>
Hatem
Repair Question (Liner Pond) Robert, This is Doug Carrion. I
live in Los Angeles Ca. About 2 weeks ago I had some trees cut back on
my property, only to find that one of the branches while trimming
punctured the bottom of our Koi Pond. <Yikes> I had just
bought the house, so I am brand new to the world. It looks to me like
it is a black liner of some sort. How would I know which material this
pond is? <It may well be printed/embossed on the material itself (if
you can pick enough of it up to take a look), or at least the name of
the manufacturer... Likely a Tetra product, green on one side, black on
the other... 32 mil PVC... EPDM and Butyl Rubber have definite feels,
looks to them...> Also, for repairing, do I take the chance of
melting the material if I choose the wrong patch? Well if you could
point me in the right direction, I would greatly appreciate the help,
Thanks Carrion <Cutting to a/the chase here, do have one/two
"pond service companies" come out and bid on this repair...
They should be able to detail your possibilities quickly. You can then
decide to DIY or no. Not much chance of melting the material if
choosing wrong patch technology though. As I say, check through the
"Yellow Pages" here. Bob Fenner>
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Aquatic Gardens
Ponds, Streams,
Waterfalls & Fountains:
Volume 1. Design & Construction
Volume 2. Maintenance, Stocking, Examples
V. 1
Print and
eBook on Amazon
V. 2
Print and
eBook on Amazon
by Robert (Bob) Fenner |
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