FAQs on Quinine Compounds: Science, Rationale,
Use
Related Articles: Use of
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Surgery, The Three Sets of Factors
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Related FAQs: Quinine
Compound Med.s, Quinine Cpd.s/Med.s
2,
Sources, Dosing/Treatment, Troubles/Fixing, Accounts/Success Stories, & FAQs on:
Medications/Treatments 1, Medications/Treatments 2, Medications/Treatments 3, Antibiotics/Antimicrobials, Anthelminthics/Vermifuges/Dewormers,
Copper FAQs 1, Organophosphates, Epsom/Other Salts, Formalin/Formaldehyde, Furan Compounds, Garlic, Homeopathic Remedies (teas, pepper sauce,
other shams...), Malachite
Green, Mercury
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Blue, Metronidazole, Sulfas, Treating
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Tanks, Medications/Treatments
II, Treating Parasitic Disease, Using Hyposalinity to Treat Parasitic
Disease, Garlic Use,
Antibiotic Use,
Marine Disease 1, Puffer Disease,
|
Much safer, more efficacious than
copper, formalin... |
Re: Transship Contacts...
CP Assay 6/7/16
Bob,
<Nick>
It has been a while, but things are going along nicely. I am purchasing a
Colorimeter, Spectrometer or Spectrophotometer for the store. I want to be able
to test for Chloroquine Phosphate. I contacted Hach and they
are unsure what I need to test for.
<I don't know that there is an assay for...>
I know one or more of these devices can test this for me. Can you put me
in touch with someone that could help me out with testing for CP?
<See the folks that offer it for sale? :
http://www.nationalfishpharm.com
I might make a quick trip to LA to meet some vendors next week, just watching
the weather here (storms
in the gulf) and make sure Southwest has some flights available.
Thanks,
Nick
<Or a reference librarian in a college that has a life science dept. Bob Fenner>
Re: purple tang with spots after 10 weeks of Chloroquine?
1/15/15
Thank you Bob, for helping to relieve my panic. I've been giving it time before
following up.
I chose the option of not stressing the purple tang further by trapping him.
<Good>
He did go through a ParaGuard bath in the transition, just to be safe.
The good news, most spots were gone the following morning. I noticed that the
vast majority followed the lateral line and were primarily on one side of this
fish. I will follow up again if there are changes, but so far, fish that have
been in the DT for 4 days are clean.
On a side note, I've been looking for an appropriate venue to place some data
from an earlier attempt at treating my DT with Chloroquine that I think could be
of value (though it failed)
<Send it on for posting on WWM>
First, I am a PhD chemist with years of experience studying the physical and
chemical behavior of drugs and am considered an expert in the field (real name
is XXXX). I got permission from my boss to run a few samples from my tank on an
HPLC (High performance liquid chromatography) to quantitate the drug
concentration at certain time points, though I would
prefer that my identity not be disclosed anyway (everybody has people willing to
take things out of context to make them look bad for self promotion in business
these days). If you can agree not to use my real name,
<Sure>
I think the data would be useful to aquarists in general. They include
degradation rates, effect of skimming and UV sterilization on rate of drug loss,
time saturation of carbon placed in the sump, initial drug loss rate after first
dose, and the presence of multiple degradates of the drug with similar UV/vis
spectra that will lead to erroneous readings if using a spectrometer without
chromatography to separate the components.
Sadly, I can also provide failures from returning corals to the tank too soon
after treatment ended. I now believe the minimum time to return corals should be
one month, with multiple 30-40% water changes to remove components that may not
stick to carbon (the structure of known metabolites/degradates may be less able
to stick to carbon, and may need water changes to remove.) The study does not
have the scientific rigor to publish in a peer reviewed journal due to the
limited number of samples I was able to negotiate, and again, even if it was, I
wouldn't want to broadcast to my colleagues that my boss had let me do this.
Let me know.
-Jules
<Cheers, Bob Fenner>
Re: Marine Ich Treatment --
10/22/11
Quinine sulphate was easier to obtain so that's what I will use.
Although I see that you prefer the Chloroquine. In your opinion would
there be an adverse reaction in dosing quinine if there is still cu in
the water
<Already answered>
(I am in the process of removing it). I found no information about
mixing the two and I do apologize if it has been posted
Chloroquine Phosphate to
Kill Algae 8/6/11
WetWeb Crew,
<BW/RA>
I have a 300g Fish Only system and maintain nitrates at 5ppm and
phosphates at about 0.05ppm using PHA biopellets.
I run low light levels but do have some brown algae that grows in
time.
<So?>
I usually remove all rocks and artificial corals and bleach/wash to
remove light brown algae. But this of course is a hassle to repeat
every couple of months.
<Again...>
I did have an Ich breakout due to a new fish (which was QT, but still
had Ich). I used Quinine Sulfate successfully to treat the Ich and have
not had any further issues(reported to you earlier this year). I used 8
Tbls/300 gal in my system at one week intervals twice with a 25% water
change between them.
<I see>
One of the side benefits of this was the elimination of the brown algae
completely!
<Really?>
So, I am trying to determine if either Chloroquine Phosphate or Quinine
Sulfate can be used on a routine basis to eliminate the brown
algae.
<I would not do this... the many organisms (micro-) mal-affected in
your system by such... not worth it>
I understand that CP is somewhat less stressful compared to QS from
some internet posts (but can't believe everything on internet,
right).
Here is a post on Reef Central about this:
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1467116
Goemans mentioned this in an article some time back according to the
posts in this thread.
I would like to try the CP, but need to know dosage. ie Tbls/XX gals
and how often..water changes?
<Again, I don't want to encourage you here. Read instead re
other approaches. See WWM re>
Anyone try this with success, and of course affects on fish? I have no
corals or inverts.
Thanks,
Regal Angel
<Welcome. Bob Fenner>
Chloroquine Phosphate to Kill Algae
8/6/11
WetWeb Crew,
<BW/RA>
I have a 300g Fish Only system and maintain nitrates at 5ppm and
phosphates at about 0.05ppm using PHA biopellets.
I run low light levels but do have some brown algae that grows in
time.
<So?>
I usually remove all rocks and artificial corals and bleach/wash to
remove light brown algae. But this of course is a hassle to repeat
every couple of months.
<Again...>
I did have an Ich breakout due to a new fish (which was QT, but still
had Ich). I used Quinine Sulfate successfully to treat the Ich and have
not had any further issues(reported to you earlier this year). I used 8
Tbls/300 gal in my system at one week intervals twice with a 25% water
change between them.
<I see>
One of the side benefits of this was the elimination of the brown algae
completely!
<Really?>
So, I am trying to determine if either Chloroquine Phosphate or Quinine
Sulfate can be used on a routine basis to eliminate the brown
algae.
<I would not do this... the many organisms (micro-) mal-affected in
your system by such... not worth it>
I understand that CP is somewhat less stressful compared to QS from
some internet posts (but can't believe everything on internet,
right).
Here is a post on Reef Central about this:
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1467116
Goemans mentioned this in an article some time back according to the
posts in this thread.
I would like to try the CP, but need to know dosage. ie Tbls/XX gals
and how often..water changes?
<Again, I don't want to encourage you here. Read instead re
other approaches. See WWM re>
Anyone try this with success, and of course affects on fish? I have no
corals or inverts.
Thanks,
Regal Angel
<Welcome. Bob Fenner>
Re: Chloroquine Phosphate to Kill Algae
8/9/11
Bob Fenner,
<Pygoplites>
Thanks for the reply and I understand your reluctance to suggest
CP's use for algae control.
I also asked Lance Ichinotsubo about this and here is his
reply......
<Ahh!>
Sorry for the late reply, but I just found your message in my junk mail
box.
Indeed, I have used Chloroquine to control algae in a few fish-only
systems, with good success. I have used a one-time dose of 10 ppm (38.5
mg/gal) on up to 20 ppm (77 mg/gallons) with no ill-effects on the fish
or the system.
As a result, the majority of the algae just disappeared over a few
days.
In such a case, I would say treating once every two to three months is
acceptable; however, do monitor water quality and fish behavior, just
to be safe.
<Well-stated as usual>
You mentioned that you have no corals or inverts- but what about live
rock?
If you have live rock, that would change things, since there would be
Chloroquine-sensitive organisms in and on the live rock.
<Yes; assuredly>
You can obtain the Chloroquine from Fishman Chemicals. They seem to
have the best prices, that I have found.
Best Regards,
Lance Ichinotsubo
Captive Seas Aquariums
Coral Springs, Florida
<Hey Lance. See you later this week at the second fish health
conference in Maine. And thank you Regal, for sending this along.
BobF>
Regal Angel
Chloroquine Phosphate...
Use, photo-degradation 8/7/11
Bob, Re post: CHLOROQUINE PHOSPHATE for Crypto 7/15/11 &
photosensitivity
Have been reading the CP posts and spotted one that has spurred me to
write this note!
I have been using this med for 2+ years now, both at home and in a
commercial QT setting, and can say that I believe this compound is not
fail-safe.
<I do agree>
Have seen a large outbreak of crypt appear on fishes in QT after 3
weeks of treatment with CP. This is after strict dosing with water
changes on the correct days. The only media in the system was
artificial sponges and plastics, no rock or sand at all. These tanks
were crowded, however.
One factor which could point to this is that they were in a room which
was busy with people and room lights during the day. Even though the
tanks themselves were not lit, I believe it is possible this was enough
light to deteriorate the compound sufficiently to make it
ineffective.
<Mmm, possibly>
We have had CP successes in this system as well though, with the room
lights on as normal, but with much lower fish loads.
A question: Is it possible that the med can get 'used up' like
others with many fish present? Or is it just because more fish = more
vectors for parasites. Or both?
Most successes with CP have been with a light fish load, in a mostly
darkened room, (just a desk lamp in a corner of the room on a timer to
keep a sense of 'day and night' for the fishes). Under these
conditions for Protozoans a two week treatment seems to be long enough,
not the four week one suggested by Goemans et. Al. Have used this
successfully with Volitans and Radiata Lions as well, so suspect no
particular sensitivity with these species, although random deaths have/
do occur, seemingly for no 'apparent' reason other than the CP,
and with the usual suspects... the sensitive ones. Thus the two-week
regimen rather than four if the fishes look clear.
CP seems to be particularly effective against Brook, combined with a
single 5 min freshwater/ formalin dip pre-QT.
Every time I have used CP it has 'knocked' the biological
filter somewhat so that ammonia is readable after treatment. Thus, I
consider the claims for this compound to 'not harm beneficial
bacteria' to be incorrect, and ammonia monitoring to be essential.
However, the bacteria levels do recover in time to full strength with
the CP present.
As a side note, I have also used the 'CP medicated food recipe'
in my reef tank successfully with no harm to invertebrates that I have
been able to determine.
Simon.
<Thank you for this valuable, hard-won input. You will have saved
MANY headaches for folks, as well as fishes lives. Cheers, Bob
Fenner>
Re: CHLOROQUINE PHOSPHATE
for Crypto 7/20/11
Thanks Bob. One last thought. I think I am going to fallow this tank to
get the crypto out. Has anyone looked at doing fallow with CP in FOWLR
tanks?
<Not as far as I'm aware>
Seems like it could guarantee eradication since you could add
significantly more CP to the system if you wanted to with no live
stock.
<Don't know how folks would "filter out"/control so
many variables that come to mind...>
Would this decrease the time?
<Would what decrease w/ time? The presence, viability/pathogenicity
of disease causing organisms in the absence of hosts? The presence of
CP? Yes. B>
Adam
Re: CHLOROQUINE PHOSPHATE for Crypto 7/20/11
Perhaps you keep the CP to 20mg/L instead of increasing the dose. But I
would think you would be able to cut the standard fallow period of
10-12 weeks by some degree. Too bad there isn't a good way to make
sure the crypto is gone as I would love to test this to see how long it
take.
<Mmm, yes... I've been involved in a few college studies w/
trying to test such... Getting and keeping alive/viable parasites of
various sorts is difficult; let alone assessing the effect/s of any
treatment moda... Double blind tests are no good when all cultures
fail. Cheers, BobF>
Thanks for all the info!
Re: re: Good morning..... CP
poisoning 3/15/11
Hey Bob, regarding Chloroquine Phosphate dosing I went ahead and
checked out Ed Noga's book like you suggested. I am experiencing
very strange behavior from all 3 of my fish with the 40mg per gallon
dosage. My PB tang is breathing so fast I can't even keep track of
counting the speed of his breathing rate.
<I'd change out about half the water, stat!>
My flame angel and hippo tang are swimming weird and not eating. None
of these fish have any signs of parasites but I am only on my sixth day
of treatment (2 doses). My levels seem to be ok and I weighed the CP
out with a beam scale that measures grains (and converted milligrams to
grains). Noga didn't state much in his book regarding this type of
behavior to this compound. Did you ever see this?
<Yes; toxicity>
I don't want to kill these fish and I am frustrated. Should the
fish be acting and swimming kind of strange under treatment with
CP....or any strong Med for that matter? Your input would be
appreciated, thanks.
Jason
<Do this water change now. BobF>
Re: re: Good morning..... CP tox.
3/16/11
Ok.....done. I have charcoal running also. This happens way too much
with the quinine compounds. When this happened to my last flame angel
he was never the same after that. Always swam sluggish and just always
seemed tired. Does this toxicity do permanent damage to my fish or will
it heal in time?
<I hope not... Might I ask, are you sure re the volume of water
here? That is, are you taking into account the real tank dimensions,
sans displacement from other objects? It's quite common for folks
to "assume" that the gallonage is about the same as the
"model #" (for want of any other descriptor)... Most tanks
are surprisingly short of their understood gallonage... hence too easy
overdosings. B>
Thanks Bob
Re: re: Good morning..... CP dis use
3/16/11
Yes, when I first bought the tank I used five gallons buckets to fill
it bare and came up with 17 gallons.
<I see>
I only have a small amount of live rock in there and it's bare
bottom. So I treated for 16 gallons. I read on reef central to do a
double dosage during your first dose
<I would NOT do this. B>
so I can't imagine I overdosed if the fish can withstand a double
dose. I hope the toxicity didn't do any permanent damage.
Re: re: Hey Bob 2/22/11
Hey Bob, good morning. I am just following up with you
regarding CP. I finally finished my final dose and my
ammonia has spiked to 2.0....my fish are all half dead. I think I may
have overdosed. I dosed 40mg per gallon but added a little extra by
mistake.
<Yikes>
Does this mean my year and a half old cycled tank is going to have to
start from square one?
<Not likely. B>
Is this like having a brand new tank without being cycled? I've
been adding live bacteria and doing water changes hoping for the
best.
Thanks
Re: CP over/re-dosing 3/27/11
Oh, and I forgot to tell you regarding dosing of Chloroquine
phosphate.
I discovered through experimentation that the CP does not need to ever
be redosed after the first.
<Mmm, I'll have to look. Thought I'd expressed this
sufficiently on WWM>
After five days after the second dose my fish would overdose (rapid
breathing, erratic swimming, discoloration etc.).
This happened three times in a row with several different rounds of
fish.
Now I dosed once for 10 days and fish are great and parasite free...for
now, we will see. CP is so new I didn't expect you to know much
about it but Dr. Fishman at fishman chemicals said not to do more than
one dose because of actual overdosing. Figured id let you know that and
it would be beneficial to pass that on.
Cheers
<Thank you for this. B>
Re: re: 3/28/11
Sure anytime. It's amazing how the other two times immediately
after the second dose I had an ammonia spike at 2.0....BOTH times. And
all of those fish are now dead. So, one dose (at least here in
Philadelphia) is enough.
<Acknowledged. B>
Re: Cupramine and Quinine
Sulfate 3/16/11
Follow-up to the use of Quinine Sulfate.........
I sent an email to Dr. Brian Aukes as follows and received a reply:
----------------------------------
I used the 1/4 tsp/10g approach for two 5 day treatments with a 25%
water change.
No Ich since!
btw, does the QS kill the cyst stage or only the stages free swimming
and on the fish?
Thanks,
Bob
-------------------------------
Return email:
No, it kills the cysts as well. Quinine is the best Ich treatment I
have ever come across.
Best regards,
Dr. Brian G. Aukes; PhD
c/o National Fish Pharmaceuticals
---------------------------------------
So, my question for you is.....
From your Quinine (Sulfate, etc) related Marine Ich medications
experience, can you verify from research, user experience that these
compounds do kill the cyst stage (and therefore all stages) of Ich?
Or is the only source of this Dr. Aukes?
Thanks, look forward to your reply,
Bob
Cupramine and Quinine Sulfate 3/16/11
Crew,
<Howsit?>
I have a 300g Saltwater DT (FO) that I have been treating with
Cupramine for Marine Ich.
I have maintained the Cu at 0.5-0.7ppm for 2 months and still notice
some Crypt on a few fish. I moved these fish to a separate 25g QT and
treated with Crypto Pro... 5 days and the Ich is GONE!
<Ah good>
Now I would like to treat the 300g tank.
Q. Can I add the Crypto Pro (Quinine Sulfate) to the 300g that has the
Cupramine already in it. (It would/will take a long time to rid the
tank of Cu via water changes, and Cuprisorb).
<W/o fish in it? Yes>
The fish remaining in the tank are free of Ich but I want to make sure
the Ich is gone before I get rid of Cu in it and move fish to the
tank.
<They should be removed really, but worth the try>
I would plan to add the 1/4 tsp per 10g and change 25% water every
three days with the Quinine Sulfate.
Any chemists around?
<Mmm, am an old H.S. teacher one>
<http://bb.wetwebmedia.com/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile
< http://bb.wetwebmedia.com/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=3595>>
&u=3595>;
Regal Angel
http://bb.wetwebmedia.com/viewtopic.php?f=21
<http://bb.wetwebmedia.com/viewtopic.php?f=21
<http://bb.wetwebmedia.com/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=3509>>
&t=3509>; &t=3509
<Bob Fenner>
Thank you for this. BobF
Poor Tang. Hippo hlth.
3/4/10
Hello,
My Hippo Tang seems to be having some sort of parasite problem. On his
side is what basically looks like a white head pimple (appeared within
24 hours), almost like something attached itself to him or came out of
him.
<Just one such spot? Don't worry>
He is on the rebound (Hooray!) from an HLLE issue, which the folks at
WWM graciously helped me (and him) out with solving, Thank You.
At first I freaked out when I saw the "zit" and started to
lower the salinity, but then decided against putting him under any
excess stress that may send him into an HLLE downward spiral.
<Yes>
I am fairly sure it isn't ich, as it doesn't look like a grain
of sand and as far as I can tell there is only one maybe two (could be
starting) "zits". Appetite and behavior are not affected.
I can't find any good images of flukes to compare, so I turn to
your expertise.
<Not a trematode...>
I should mention one important yet embarrassing piece of
information.
While I wasn't home, a family member introduced a new fish to the
system.
They proudly told me how they acclimated it and made sure it could live
with its fellow tank mates (it was a fish I was looking into
purchasing).
Sadly, no quarantine, my heart sank.
The new fish doesn't have any symptoms or sign of disease, so maybe
the timing is coincidental.
I have a ten gallon quarantine tank that will not house all of the fish
(Hippo Tang, 2 Clowns, 2 Firefish, and a new scooter blenny). If they
need medication (only the Hippo Tang has "zits", should I
just medicate the main tank, while moving my live rock, shrimp, and
snails to the quarantine?
Thank you
Adam
<I would just hold off, wait here... Would not treat the fish, move
it... Read on WWM re Paracanthurus if you get the urge. Bob Fenner>
Re: Poor Tang -- 3/6/10
Hello,
Thank you for such a speedy reply.
The disease has progressed on my Hippo Tang and it almost definitely
looks like Ich now (White dots in various locations on his body).
I purchased Mardel CopperSafe,
<... see WWM... I don't suggest copper med.s use on/w/
Acanthuroids>
but am having second thoughts on using it (I have not yet).
Where the ten gallon Qt tank is so small, I would have to treat the
main tank.
<Definitely a No... don't do this>
Which would effect the entire system, including beneficial organisms I
cannot see.
I would like to attempt non chemical treatment.
I have already turned the heat up, and am ready to start lowering
salinity.
Do agree that this is the best course of action?
<Mmm, Quinine/s... see ...>
Also would you recommend moving live rock, shrimp, and snails to the QT
will using such a treatment (I also have three polyps (of some sort)
that keep dividing, perhaps them too)?
Thank You
Adam
<Keep reading... and soon. B>
Re: Poor Tang
3/10/10
Hello,
My Blue Hippo Tang still has ich, though with
improvements in breathing and activity.
I returned the copper medication, good thing I had second thoughts on
using it.
I did purchase Kordon Ich Attack, and have been treating the display
tank for four days (along with a temperature increase).
<What do you think of this (alternative medicine) product?>
I feel foolish for thinking that such a amazing product could exist. It
is true to its word in not effecting inverts and allowing for steady
water parameters. The lack of spike in ammonia probably indicates that
the product isn't even killing other pests (worms) in my tank.
<Likely so>
I am going to finish out the directed dosage though, as while no cure
something I am doing is helping my Tang.
I have also pumped the fish's diet full of vitamins in hopes of
boosting immunities. I have read garlic can help, but I must disagree,
I think it only acts as an attractant.
<Okay>
I am in the hunt for an affordable 55 gallon QT tank, hopefully it will
suffice for my Tang, 2 clowns, 2 Firefish, and scooter blenny.
If I still don't have a QT big enough and the Tang still has a bad
infection of ich after organic treatment, I am going to have to
medicate the display tank with non organic medication. I know it is a
really bad thing to do and you already said definitely not, but I
can't just watch my fish die, he is truly part of the family.
<... this runs contrary to your statements re not dedicating
resources for it/their care>
I have read that if treatment to a display tank is a must, the drug of
choice is Quinine (I believe you also recommend using it, only in
QT).
<Chloroquine Phosphate is my/the current "genie in a
bottle" here... But should be administered in "bare"
hospital settings>
Also I think it is the best choice for my Tang.
I have seen some brands like Aquatronics contain Quinine, but with
malachite green. Is this okay?
Do you recommend a brand?
<No, but some sources... read here:
http://wetwebmedia.com/quinmedfaqs.htm>
I will keep researching before doing anything "crazy", giving
up is not an option.
thank you
Adam
<And you, BobF>
Re: Poor Tang, & Quinine
f' 3/22/10
Hello,
I wanted to give you an update on my ich situation.
I searched all my local (and some a long drive away) marine fish
specialty stores for any medication containing quinine. None of the
stores had the medication (even the ones that normally carry it).
I then found National Fish Pharmaceuticals (mentioned on your fine
website) and talked with an extremely helpful gentleman. With his
recommendation I purchased Crypto-Pro.
Kordon Ich Attack treatment was suspended and a large water change
combined with normal filtration and protein skimmer was
administered.
After filtration of Kordon ich attack the skimmer was shut off and
carbon was removed.
Live rock, snails, polyps, shrimp, and hermit crabs were moved to a
separate (already cycled) tank.
Following instruction from the gentleman on the phone and not the
instructions on Crypto-Pro I administered the product.
Today is day seven after the initial treatment and all fish are looking
great and water parameters are where they should be.
I am on the fence to administer a 'just-in-case' dose
tomorrow.
<Okay, though will comment (for browsers esp.) that such is
generally unnecessary>
As a precaution everything removed from main tank will be kept in the
separate tank for a few more weeks, I don't want to risk any
parasite living on the live rock or perhaps some infected water
re-entering the main tank.
A large water change followed by smaller water changes and normal
filtration and skimming will be run for at least some time to ensure
removal of medication.
Thank you for all the advice, you and the rest of the team run a superb
service.
Adam
<Thank you Adam... for this careful, well-thought out addenda. Life
to you. BobF>
Ich: Dosing main tank again.
2/3/2010
Hey Crew,
<Hi again Aaron.>
Well I'm back with more questions. Again, I have ich in my
system.
<I remember. I seem to recall you were going to set up a FW Ray
system as well.>
I am treating in my display with Cupramine.
<We've been over this before. Treating the main tank is a very
bad idea unless you are treating with quinine. Copper is only going to
kill the free swimming stages of the parasite.>
I know, not the best idea. I just don't have the ability to set up
a big enough quarantine. I have taken all my rock out but I do still
have substrate in the tank. I have been treating for about three weeks
now and this darn ich is not going away. My substrate at first had
absorbed some of the copper so it was a battle to keep the levels where
they should be.
<Typical, which is why it is recommended to treat in a bare bottomed
tank.>
For the last week to week and a half they measure within range. Could
this be a resistant strain? Have my levels not been therapeutic long
enough?
<If you are treating the main tank with copper, yes, it can take
weeks http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ichartmar.htm >
All of my fish are eating good and for the most part acting normal.
Every other time I have used Cupramine it has cleared it up in no
time.
<It cleared up on the fish, the parasite is still in your
tank.>
Just don't get it? I was thinking possibly another parasite of some
sort.
But wouldn't the Cupramine eradicate it as well? I have a few
copper sensitive fish in the tank and don't want to expose them any
more than I have to. Without the possibility of quarantine what would
you guys say is my best attack method?
<Again, quinine.... http://www.wetwebmedia.com/quinmedfaqs.htm
>
Thank you again for your expert advice on this. Without a lfs in the
area with a knowledgeable staff I have nowhere else to turn.
<MikeV>
To medicate or not to medicate
(while in quarantine)? 2/1/2010
Good morning Crew -
<Good afternoon Chris>
After a long, unsuccessful battle with crypt a few months back, I'm
in the slow process of restocking my tank. I've read and
researched, asked questions and am doing whatever I can to not make the
same mistakes I made the first time around. The end result is that
I've got a few new quarantine tanks in the basement (one each for
fish, inverts/algae, corals) and I've become a bit of a QT Nazi,
for lack of a better description.
<Yes, but whereas the Nazi's were bad, quarantine is definitely
good!>
There are dozens of techniques/methods for acclimating new arrivals
(dips, baths, etc.) and a host of procedures for quarantining /
treating all of the different critters that will someday make
themselves at home in my living room, and differences range from the
benign to the extreme
<yes they do>.
I've taken what I believe the be the best information from all of
the different sources I've read, and have acclimation and QT
procedures for fish, mobile inverts, sessile inverts; all of which are
manageable for me, within the confines of my available
space/time/resources, and, I believe, give me the best chance of not
introducing another deadly and/or destructive organism into my
tank.
<It sounds like you have taken a lot of time and effort to learn all
of this which is to your credit and will be to the benefit of the
creatures that you keep>.
There's one part of the QT process that I'm unclear on,
however, that I'd like another opinion on.
<Ok, but be advised that all you will get is my opinion. You must
come to your own conclusions with reading, learning and
experience>
After doing any dips/baths I feel necessary upon inspection of new
arrivals/purchases, once the animal is in quarantine, should I treat it
if I see no obvious signs of any disease?
<For invertebrates I would not, but for fishes I personally treat
all with Chloroquine Phosphate. This viewpoint is not shared by all
however, there are other, equally valid, courses/ actions>.
I'm a big fan of 'if its not broken, don't fix it' but
I've been told that I'm playing with fire by not using
copper/formalin/malachite green or something other for unseen crypt
parasites, or hyposalinity and increased temps for crypt and any other
potential fish-killers.
<Yes, but with the advent of C.P. I feel that many concerns about
unnecessarily medicating fishes are negated>.
Then there's flat-worm exit for corals, interceptor, fluke-exit,
etc. etc.
<Yes, there are'¦.>
For now, my thinking is that the fishes have been through enough
already when they get to my house. I dip (m. blue or iodine), then just
maintain good, clean, stable water conditions and watch for disease (or
unwanted inverts riding along with corals) in quarantine.
<This is a perfectly valid procedure, I use a freshwater dip before
QT myself>
If nothing turns up over the course of 35 days, I acclimate to main
tank water, introduce to the reef, and enjoy with the family.
<Yes> If something warrants further attention while under
observation, needs medication more drastic measures, I deal with it as
it comes. Am I okay with this line of thought, <Yes, I think you
are> or should I really employ some sort of chemical warfare against
unseen enemies during the quarantine period?
<Well, there are no rules here. IMO with the more hardy fishes there
is no reason not to use C.P. It is your choice with the more sensitive
ones, and with fishes that do not stand well to protracted QT
procedures (for example Ctenochaetus Tangs are not good survivors). As
long as you are using a QT tank and watching for anything unusual then
you will avoid most problems, whether or not you resort to
'chemical warfare'>
Thank you,
<No problem>
Chris
<Simon>
28/01/2010 Urgent Question -
Crypt/ Q.T./ C.P. 1/29/10
Well, my aquarium has ICK and I can't find proper advice about how
to handle this particular and urgent situation.
<Ok, let's see if we can help>
The problem is, as I understand all the fish must be placed in
quarantine for 8 weeks until the main tank becomes 99% ICK free.
<Yes, dependant on severity and situation>
I have an assortment of 10 fish. Copperband Butterfly, 2 black and
white clowns, 2 Anthias (I think Bartlett's), 1 Royal Grammas, 1
Lawnmower Blenny, 1 Bluestreak Wrasse, 1 Diamond Goby, 1 Randall's
Goby.
<Hmmmm, some of these fishes may not fare well with a prolonged QT
period>
I am not sure whether to go with copper or hypo, but am currently
leaning towards hypo.
<I would use neither. Chloroquine Phosphate is my weapon of choice:
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/quinmedfaqs.htm>
I tried garlic, both in the tank and soaked in food.
<Won't work>
Also tried No-Ick.
<In-tank medication? No good IMO>
Those attempts haven't solved the problem, although they did take
up valuable time. Now I am running out of time.
The Gramma is the worst. Still eating, but appears to be losing scales
and I can see the discomfort and scratching. The butterfly is the next
most adversely affected. I can't see Ick on the others, but the
Anthias and Wrasse are scratching.
<They are all infested, mostly in their gills where you can't
see the skin reaction to the parasite>
I understand from WWM that Gobies and Blennies cannot take long periods
in quarantine. Especially sand sifters.
<This is a difficult and trying time. These decisions and actions
can easily result in the death of fishes, especially sensitive
ones>
But I still need to keep them out of the main display for 8 weeks.
<Yes you do, in fact Noga suggests 3 months is necessary, but this
is too long a QT period for most fishes by far>
I am hoping for advice on how to quarantine all for 8 weeks, with no
substrate,
<Very carefully, in as large a QT tank as possible. Ammonia is the
killer here, as long as you can keep the fishes feeding well, and keep
TOTAL ammonia to zero (or at least as low as 0.25 temporarily at first)
this CAN be done. However, this requires extreme effort on your part
and is a very stressful time, trust me I know>.
or do I take the chance and quarantine the Gobies and Blenny for 2-4
weeks, or for as long as they can take it, and then put them back in
the main tank?
<No, you will put back all of your hard work if you do this. I would
use Chloroquine Phosphate in your QT tank, with some sponges (inert) in
a canister or other large filter. I would purchase some of this fancy
'instant-nitrifying bacteria-in--a-bottle' stuff -- Hagen's
'cycle' is the one I have used successfully (Check the expiry
dates) -- and keep pouring this stuff in over the first two weeks of
treatment to help build up a biological filter. Feed sparingly and test
ammonia twice daily for the first two weeks, when you are happy with
the ammonia long term, increase feeding, and test ammonia once a day
after. Use water changes where you have to. DO NOT cease feeding, as
some fishes will refuse to eat afterwards if you do this. This is why
this is difficult to manage>.
How can the Diamond Goby survive even a few days in the no substrate
hospital tank without satisfying its nature to constantly sift
sand?
<hmmm, you could add some new dry sand to the QT after two weeks of
CP treatment if you like. There has also been some success with using
this med in the presence of a substrate but doing this is a bit
'hit-and-miss' as far as I understand. Maybe other crew members
might know more about this, am copying into the main 'in-box'
here>.
The other problem is my currently available hospital tank is only 29
gallons and I am pretty sure this is too small?
<Yes, by far - there is a good chance that some of your fishes will
die. The danger is that when your fishes go into QT they will refuse to
feed, or bully and stress each other in the confined space. Another
danger is that the feeding itself plus the excretion from the gills
will produce ammonia that will kill them. Doing massive water changes
in such a small setting will stress the fish further, especially if
they are daily. My advice is to purchase a larger QT tank>.
I certainly am amazed and appreciative of all that you do for the world
of aquarium enthusiasts. I have learned a tremendous amount from
WWM.
<Well, that's great Peter and so have I! A plug for the use of
quarantine BEFORE introduction for all livestock is appropriate here,
and although my opinion differs from that of other crew members on
this, I believe that all fishes should be quarantined with the
prophylactic use of C.P.>.
Thanks,
<No problem Peter. If you go this road then diligence is required
here, beware of complacency as this will kill your fish as surely as
anything else. Please write back for more help with this if you need
it, I fully sympathise with what you are going through and am more than
willing to help further>.
-Peter
<Simon><<Well-done Simon. BobF>>
Re: 28/01/2010 Urgent Question -
Crypt/ Q.T./ C.P. 1/30/10
<Hello Peter>
Very, very much appreciated. I am amazed at the quick response.
<That's what we're here to do>
I will implement the suggestions and report back. I probably researched
ICK treatment 50 hours over the last two weeks and nothing I came
across was as concise and accurate as this. Myself and all my fish are
indebted to you.
<That's marvelous!>
Thank you,
-Peter
<Simon>
Re: 28/01/2010 Urgent Question -
Crypt/ Q.T./ C.P. 2/1/2010
<Hello Peter>
I haven't yet started the ICK QT treatment recommendation since I
still have to find and buy a larger QT tank set-up to accommodate all
10 fish. Not trying to reinvent science, but I have a new theory based
on limited results and I hope to hear your expert opinion.
<Ok>
I did purchase a JBJ 13 Watt Submariner in-tank UV Sterilizer with the
plan to put the UV in the QT tank that I planned to purchase, to help
reduce the amount of free swimming ICK.
<This is no good, as UV will render most medications inactive,
especially Chloroquine phosphate as this is photosensitive. The only
method with which this would be of benefit would be with hyposalinity
in a QT tank>.
I have not used UV prior but seemed to read that UV will kill some ICK
at low flow rates past the UV bulb.
<Yes>
I also understand that UV kills some of the good stuff too.
<Yes, but not a major concern as there should be plenty more
'good stuff' in the system. That is, if you have not killed it
off already by using supposed 'reef safe' treatments in your
main system. These are not reef safe, as much of the microscopic life
that is integral to your 'reef' is killed off, to the detriment
of all>.
Anyhow, I temporarily put the UV Sterilizer in the main tank and am
quite surprised at how crystal clear the tank water becomes. I
don't know if some microscopic ICK are being removed by the UV,
<probably yes> but there is certainly a noticeable improvement in
water clarity.
<Be sure to keep the quartz shaft clean, the bulb replaced and the
correct flow rate through -- a lot of work for not such a huge benefit.
More useful is Ozone IMO>.
Common opinion tends to indicate that UV will kill some of the ICK, but
this isn't a method to completely rid a tank of the disease since
100% of the tank water will not pass through the UV.
<Correct>.
Purchasing a large QT tank to accommodate all 10 fish along with the
associated difficulties of the 8 week QT process is a little
daunting
<It is good that you find it daunting -- this means that if you go
this road you are more likely to succeed because you know the potential
pitfalls>
which would be nice to avoid, if possible.
<I understand where you are coming from here>.
So I was wondering, if purchasing another UV Sterilizer for the other
side of the tank, <I wouldn't -- for reasons stated> or even
two more UVs, <no> coupled with the unconventional methods of
heavy garlic <maybe a little mixed w/ some vitamins in the food>,
increasing the tank temperature to speed up the ICK life cycle,
<this is playing with chemistry to try to 'fix' something.
Not a good route IMO> maybe lower salinity to 1.014 or so,
<no point in doing this unless it is 1.009, and many strains of
crypt have survived even this> vitamins to help boost the fish self
defense mechanisms
<I would do this>
and perhaps in-tank medication such as Kick-Ich
<I would never use a med. in my main system for various reasons. I
have in the past, and regretted it> could collectively become a full
solution to rid the tank of ICK.
<I'm sorry to say Peter that even if you applied all of these it
will not rid the tank completely. I think you have a choice here
between a fallow period and quarantine, or trying to 'strike a
balance' and accepting that this parasite is with you for good.
Really, that choice is down to you and what you think your fishes can
take, and whether you think you can manage the system w/ this parasite
present. Many do so reasonably successfully, but sometimes the
infestation reaches a 'point of no return' where action must be
taken>.
It seems that some of the new ICK tomites will not find a host fish,
some will be zapped by the multiple UV Sterilizers, some may be
repelled by garlic <no, this is used to 'boost' the immune
system>, some may be neutralized by Kick-Ich <not w/ UV
present> and the fish immune system may become better equipped to
fight off the new reduced amounts of ICK attacks.
<I understand your reasoning, but this won't work>
My understanding is that ICK newly attached to a fish grows and then
leaves the fish in 5-7 days?
<In my experience this can be 1 -- 8 days for the visible signs
(skin reaction) to disappear>
For the situation to become progressively worse requires a constant
supply of new ICK attaching to the fish???
<Yes, but understand that some will remain attached to the fish for
longer than others, and more will remain encysted on the substrate for
different amounts of time, thus meaning that at any one time in a large
infestation all stages of the parasite are present in the
system>
Therefore, greatly limiting the amount of new free-swimming ICK should
give the fish some short term relief and
hopefully they will be able to ultimately win the battle.
<This is a hope that many have...>
Forgot to mention, regular, even daily partial water changes too, to
help remove and further reduce the amount of tomites.
<Yes, but this is best done in a bare bottomed QT with vacuuming/
scrubbing of the sides of the tank>
Is this worth a try, or do you feel that I would just be delaying the
inevitable full QT requirement.
<As stated Peter, I think you have but two choices here. If you opt
for the 'balance' then I would employ some Lysmata shrimps to
help 'ease' the irritation, but I am sure you are aware, this
is not a cure either. From the sounds of the severity of your problem,
if it were me & mine I would be carefully QT-ing the lot for 8
weeks>.
Thanks again,
-Peter
<No problem, Simon>
SW med. reading, BFs, Velvet,
Copper -- 01/30/10
Hi everyone
Hi again guys lol. Ok, so I am in the middle of a two month fallow
period in my 90gal tank due to a velvet outbreak. I currently have my
3..5" Heniochus in a ten gallon
<Yikes>
QT tank with a penguin 150 HOB power filter a heater and some sand in a
pouch from my main tank to avoid a level spike (or at least help with
it). I have medium amount of circulation and an airstone for oxygen. I
just made the first dose of Cupramine.
<... I would not expose these, or most other Chaetodontids to
copper... Look into/use a Quinine compound instead. Read here:
http://wetwebmedia.com/quinmedfaqs.htm>
Now, the label says to dose this for two weeks
<Not w/o testing for free copper daily>
and your good to go (if no signs of spots or symptoms), but do you
think this is long enough?
<I suggest you read re Cu use on WWM>
I know for a face there is velvet in the water because it's the
same water that was from my display tank. If not two weeks, what amount
of time do you feel is safe enough to say the fish is free of velvet
and can be placed back into the display? And, how do you feel about the
"Prime" product by Seachem just in case I run into problems
with ammonia and water changes aren't completely
cutting it?
Thanks,
J
<Start here: http://wetwebmedia.com/mardisindex.htm
scroll down... Bob Fenner>
Re more SW dis. w/o
reading 1/30/10
Ok thanks Bob. Is there anywhere unparticular that you recommend I
purchase Quinine Sulfate from?
<Please read where you were referred to. Sources are listed there.
B>
I can't find much online and for a reasonable price at that. And is
the success rate with killing velvet as good as that of Copper?
<And this...>
Thanks
30/01/2010 Velvet &
Quinine 1/31/2010
Hi everyone
<Hello Jason>
I am reading now......only thing is I can't find the answer to my
one question.......can I use Quinine Sulfate in my display tank and
kill off the Velvet?
<It is not likely to work. The presence of substrate can affect the
med, and the lifecycle of the parasite means that it will still be in
your system when treatment finishes. This is best done in a QT setting.
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/amylloodiniumart.htm>
It says it does not kill beneficial bacteria.
<Does not, but neither is it likely to the job you want it to here.
Simon>.
Re: 30/01/2010 Velvet &
Quinine 2/1/2010
<Jason>
Ok Simon, thanks for responding. So since the life cycle is so long
with Velvet, how long shall I QT for in order to be sure that the life
cycle is complete?
<Have you read where you were referred? 8 weeks 'fallow'
time>
If the Quinine doesn't get absorbed (hence bare bottom tank), will
it work faster?
<No, this will take 8 weeks, although the treatment period is not
this long. Please read:
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/quinmedfaqs.htm>.
Also, I have a lil nylon bag of sand from my main tank in my QT tank to
add some beneficial bacteria and help with suppress a new cycle and
level spikes. Will that be enough to absorb the Quinine?
<Mmmm, maybe. Maybe not. I would not use this, it may well harbour
some parasites as well as absorb the med. Instead I would use some
bacteria-in-a-bottle to seed some inert sponges in a filter>.
Or does it have to be a full sand bed in order to absorb it?
<To my knowledge there is no data on this. If there is, or if any of
the crew knows more here I am sure they will chip in>.
Thanks
<Simon>
Re: 30/01/2010 Velvet &
Quinine -- 02/02/10
Ok thanks Simon,
<No problem>
I think you misunderstood me........I was indeed referring to the
"treatment period" not the "fallow period". But you
did answer my question saying that the treatment period will not be as
long as the full 8-week cycle of the parasite.
<That's good news>
Thanks again
<Simon>
Re: 30/01/2010 Velvet &
Quinine 2/8/10
Hey guys.
<Hello Jason>
Jeez, I am just full of issues lol. Now I followed what the
"crew" suggested and I am using Quinine to treat Velvet.
<Ok>
But my issues now are....AMMONIA/NITRITE (Ammonia almost .25ppm and
nitrite the same).
<Yes -- the most common reason for mortality in QT tanks by
far>
I did use my display tank water (which has been seasoned for over four
months)
<No good, as most of the bacteria required are attached to
'surfaces'>
but apparently ceramic rings and stars weren't enough to keep from
having a mini "recycle" of the tank.
<Were these 'seeded' or new?>
I am using bacteria (Nite-out by Microbelift) and a product called
Prime to help aid in the cycle process along with daily 25% water
changes (which all are indeed helping).
<Yes, these are your best methods, although I am unsure if using
Prime might interfere with the Quinine>
My concern is that my Butterfly (Chaetodon Ulietensis) will be bothered
by the nitrogenous waste (like each and every Butterfly profile on WWM
states). Will this be ok temporarily or is there a good chance my
Butterfly will pass on?
<Should be ok short term (a few days). This requires diligence on
your part, careful observation, testing. You can cease feeding for a
few days to help here, but not much longer if you can help it. Feed
sparingly afterwards until the ammonia is under control.>
Bob states these are indeed tough, but how tough?
<Mmmm, tough by Butterfly standards yes, but not what I would call
tough overall>
Should I be concerned?
<Yes>
Anything else you recommend?
<Mmmm, purchase of a larger QT system.... to use BEFORE introduction
of livestock to your display, as well as treating now>
Thanks so much.....AGAIN lol!
<No problem, Simon>
Re: 08/02/10 Re: Velvet & Quinine
Thanks again.
<No prob.s>
The bio rings have been in my display tank since I started it four
months ago, so they are "used".
<Mmm, lets hope they do not harbour encysted parasites>
Also, for the Quinine, the directions say to use two treatments at full
strength? Is this what you would do?
<I would follow the manufacturers directions to the letter>
Is the treatment over after just two doses like the directions
state?
<Yes, your fish are placed into the QT tank w/ the med. When the
parasites 'drop off' the fishes to encyst they are killed by
the med. in the water>.
And what would you recommend I do with the new 20gal QT that I
purchase?
<Use it pronto>
Will the water from my ten gallon and the bio rings inside be
enough?
<Mmmm, I would transfer all immediately, and top off w/ new water.
Keep using the bottled bacteria>
Thanks
<No problem Jason. Do write back w/ your results and watch the
ammonia. Simon>
Re: 08/02/10 Re: Velvet &
Quinine
<Hello again Jason>
Wow that was fast.......lol.
<I was online... Now it is a bleary eyed morning!>
Ok sounds good, I will be in touch with you. I just tested ammonia and
I'm at almost zero but nitrite are between 0 and .25ppm.
<This will be ok, keep at it>
So I guess I'm nearing the end of the mini cycle. Which bottled
bacteria do you feel is the most effective?
<I've used a couple and found Hagens Cycle to be the best, but
there are many I have not tried at all>
And do you like Nite-out?
<I am not familiar w/ the product>
If the bio rings did have encysted parasites the Quinine would still
kill them correct?
<No, it won't. If it did then no-one would ever use anything
else. To my knowledge there is no chemical that will kill these and not
kill everything else, my understanding is that all act on the free
swimmers. You will probably be ok here though, but if you are nervous
(like me) I would put some inert sponge in a filter in the QT and
gradually remove the bio rings bit by bit once you have the ammonia
under control, and before you finish the treatment course>
And would the Quinine be just as effective when just treating the water
in a QT with no fish?
<? why would you want to do this? You mean in your display sans
fish? No.>
All these questions I know.......sorry.
<No problem>
Thanks Simon
<Ok!>
Re: 08/02/10 Re: Velvet &
Quinine 2/10/10
Hey Simon,
<Hello Jason>
You are of MUCH help in this process, I really appreciate it.
<No problem, but do remember - these problems are of your own making
from the lack of use of a QT tank before you add fishes to your
display>
To follow up on the last email you sent over to me.....I was referring
to treating my QT tank (NOT display tank) with Quinine before I added
fish,
<? You mean you have not already acted? I'm scrolling down here
and it seems this has been going on for a month. If you suspected
Velvet then you should have acted and separated the fishes immediately
as James initially advised. I am confused here.. are you purchasing new
fish when you have a parasitised system?>
what do you think?
<I would medicate the QT first and then add the fish after, if it
was Velvet.... but I suspect since the amount of time this has been
going on now (a month) that what you have is actually Cryptocaryon...
either way the treatment is the same>
I want to try to kill a lot of the parasites so I don't have to put
the new fish into so much stress.
<Mmmm, these will drop off and die in the med. anyway after a few
days - most of the stress will come from general QT tank conditions
over time>
Also, the directions to the Quinine Sulphate are VERY vague. It
says....."Dose 1/4 teaspoon every 24 hours with 25% water changes
before each dose....". So how long shall I treat this for?
<Please read here, there is plenty of info that can help you:
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/quinmedfaqs.htm>
Shall I dose daily for a week, for ten days? What do you think? And,
unfortunately I just added a Heniochus in my QT and it has Velvet
already.
<?>
I started treatment with the Quinine the SAME day I noticed spots on
the fish, will the Quinine act quickly enough? Is it a fast acting
medication or does it take several days?
<Please read/ learn the lifecycle of this parasite Jason, it is the
key to successful treatment and you have been referred to it several
times. It is virtually identical to Marine Ich, Cryptocaryon>
Thanks again
<No Problem>
Simon.....your AWESOME!!!
<Simon>
Marine Ich
1/20/10
Hello WWM crew,
<Hi Jeremy>
This is my first time writing to you all so hopefully this goes well. I
love your site and have used it in starting my saltwater hobby every
step of the way. I live in Oklahoma and recently we encountered a
blizzard that caused
a power outage as of a few weeks back.
<No fun>
Causing my water temps to take a drop to almost 65 degrees for a day. I
don't know if temp drops can be a cause
directly but maybe due to stress shortly after I noticed my Pink Tailed
Trigger fish (I will stick to common names if that's okay)
<Sure. Only important that we communicate clearly, accurately as to
what is what>
developed what seemed like my first case of Marine Ich (Cryptocaryon
irritans). Now for my set-up and live stock introduction. Set-up: 125
Gallon FOWLR, Marineland C-360 Canister Filter, Aqua Tech 30/60 Power
Filter, Eco Equalizer (don't crucify me).
<Not a modern or ancient Roman, nor Vlad the Impaler!>
I do not have a protein skimmer at the moment or a UV Sterilizer I know
these are considered necessity
<Mmm, no... but I'd trade in the magnetic gizmo and use the
money for a skimmer for sure>
but I do weekly 15% water changes every Sunday religiously to keep
water parameters in check. Which are all undetectable except for
nitrates.
<Which are?>
Although those are in the safe range. Expected with FOWLR tanks. Now
for the livestock: Volitans Lionfish,
Stars and Stripes Puffer, Snowflake Eel, Huma Rectangle Trigger, Blue
Spotted Puffer, Yellow Tang. Okay now for the problem it has spread to
all of my fish I'm guessing the lion fish and stars and stripes
puffer haven't shown visible signs but I did my research it
doesn't mean they aren't carrying the parasites.
<Correct>
Obviously I do not have a large enough tank to quarantine all my
livestock to leave my tank fallow for a month or so. So knowing this I
contacted National Fish Pharmaceuticals as that was suggested several
times on your site. They suggested Crypto Pro a hobbyist retail version
of Quinine Sulfate,
<Good>
and that I could treat using this in my display tank. So that sounded
like the best option to me. They gave me
instructions to put in 1/8 teaspoon per ten gallons of water and to
leave in the system for 5-7 days removing carbon from my filters. On
day three of the treatment it really seemed to be working all was well
my fish never stopped eating so there was no change in that but they
were itching a lot less. Well then it went down hill from there around
day 5 it just seemed to have gotten worse and then it was full blown on
every fish but the lionfish. So I am severely frustrated and out of
ideas.
<I think the Quinine "ran out"... it got absorbed by
various elements in your main display... I would have
re-treated>
I haven't lost any fish and would like to keep it that way. I'm
not giving up on these guys so I'm open to any
suggestions.
<I would re-treat now. Repeat the dosage in two-three days>
Sorry for being long winded but I figured the more descriptive the
better and maybe someone else could relate to my situation. So is there
any advice you could give me? I do still have enough Quinine Sulfate
for 2 more 5-7 day
doses. or should I try a different approach?
<I would try the QS again myself, as you have it on hand. IF you had
Chloroquine Phosphate as well I'd use it instead>
Thanks for everything your team does. Your site is an excellent source
of information to any aquarist.
Jeremy Wright
<Sorry to not have responded to you sooner. Bob Fenner><Oh!
I've included input we/WWM rec'd today below... Pertinent,
useful to you. RMF>
Ich and Quinine Sulfate: When to
dose: 1/6/2010
Hello,
<Hi John.>
I have a 55 gallon QT setup with 4 fish I newly purchased. The blue
hippo tang I purchased has ich spots on him.
<Not really surprising, they seem more prone to it than
others.>
The other fish have no ich.
<yet.... They are sharing the same tank, they will get it.>
He usually hides under or in the pvc pipe and appears to be having
rapid breathing.
<From the Ich>
I've caught him eating some Nori and some pellets but I'd like
for him to eat more.
<Eating at all is a good sign.>
I've added garlic extract and Selcon and it seems like they are not
attracted to the food. Should I treat the QT now for ich or wait till
my fish eat a lil more?
<Treat now.>
I cycled a large amount of medium (filters) for my QT so I don't
have to worry about ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate
spikes or building up.
<Good to plan ahead>
From what I've read quinine sulfate can destroy your biological
filtration which would in turn give you an ammonia spike. Is this
true?
<No, one of the nice things about quinine is that it does not
destroy your biological filter>
I've done hyposalinity in the past with success but maintaining a
steady pH was the most difficult part.
<Hypo isn't really that effective.>
<have a read here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/quinmedfaqs.htm
>
Thanks,
John
Re: At my wits end: Crypt
control, lack of QT, Copper in display tank.
Good Candidate for Quinine treatment 12/16/2009
This seems like an expensive treatment.
<Hi Aaron, Yes, it isn't exactly cheap.>
On the website it says to do a 25% water change daily.
<No, it says 1/4 teaspoon per 10 gallons of water. Treat one time
and leave in the water for 5-7 days.
For resistant Ich, treat once every three days with a 25% water change
before each treatment. Do at least 3 treatments = 9 day period.>
Is this a must?
<Follow the instructions exactly.>
So basically this treatment is less harmful to my pets?
<Yes>
And will not destroy the biological filtration?
<No it will not. It will kill all snails though.>
<MikeV>
Re: Acclimating Lysmata
amboinensis, and CP trtmt. 12/16/2009
Hi Bob,
Thanks a lot, that cleared up almost everything.
<Ahh; clarity is pleasurable>
When I adjust the ph upwards with the system water, how slow should
this be done ?
Over how many hours ?
How slowly should I drip the ph adjusted water into the bag water ?
<An hour per full pH point is about right... as a medical student,
earnest academic I am sure you appreciate the order of magnitude in
Hydrogen ion content, the implications here>
And one last question. Three weeks back you had suggested I use
Chloroquine phosphate to treat my fish which showed symptoms of both
Crypt and Amyloodinium. Since my qt is not big enough I had to separate
the fish into
two batches as I am leaving the display fallow. Most of them are
treated in the qt whereas the yellow tang and the cleaner wrasse are
treated in a large inert plastic tub. Everything was going on fine
until suddenly the water in the container has turned deep yellow about
a day back ! Its almost impossible to see the fish and the Tang keeps
trying to jump out. What is this due to ?
<A over simplistic jargonistic statement but: "Metabolite
interactions"...
Best to...>
Already did a partial water change. Should I go with another larger
change and replenish the medicine or not ?
<Change most all the water and re-new the medicine to full
concentration.
BobF>
Quinine Sulfate: Good for a
stocked tank? Follow up questions on Published WWM FAQs
12/8/2009
Hi WetWeb People
<Hi Thai.>
My blue ring has itch.
<Blue Ringed Angel? ><<Likely Pomacanthus annularis Mike.
RMF>>
Was reading the FAQ on itch and I see that MikeV recommended Quinine
Sulfate as it is less stressful on fish and also doesn't wipe out
the biological filtration like copper.
<This is correct, but as I also stated, it will kill any mollusk in
your tank.>
If this is the case can I use it in the main tank.
<It is always preferable to treat in QT, but there are instances
where it is beneficial or even necessary to treat a display
tank.>
It's a FOWLR. The reason I ask is that I am looking at alternative
methods to treat. I have a 375 gallon with 500 pounds of like rock so
catching the fish is no easy task, otherwise I would just let it run
empty.
<Using it in the tank would likely be beneficial for you
then.>
The other problem I have is that my QT tank is only 55 gallons. Not
ideal for a six bar angel, blue ring, yellow tang, 9 fusiliers, 3
Chromis and 2 triggers.
<Heheh, I agree..>
I am also open to try Garlic in food as an alternative.
<My opinion on garlic is while it may help, it is not a
cure.>
My yellow tang and six bar have not contracted white spot so I'm
assuming that is natural immune system is doing wonders.
<Or, it just has not caught it yet.>
Also thinking of buying a cleaner goby to help relieve stress.
<They may help, but with your tank, they are more likely to become
trigger food.>
Also was reading in the FAQ on itch (have read a lot) that itch or
white spot is practically in every system and keeping water level
stable is the key.
<Yes>
Therefore is it possible to treat the blue ring angel only in the QT
with Quinine Sulphate and leave him for 4 weeks and then re-introduce
it to the main tank. Would he just contract it again or will he develop
immunity.
<It is still in your tank in high enough quantities, it would catch
it again.>
Looking for alternatives as I am going on holiday in 9 days time and
nothing else looks practical for now.
<I would use Quinine. You will need a good amount of water made up
in advance for the necessary water changes.>
Wanting to know your opinion on this idea and feedback on GARLIC
EXTREME.
Had read some stories in FAQ and its successes and am currently will to
try any route before going to the sure fire copper route as its worked
in the pass.
<Again, I think it can help, but garlic is not going to cure
anything.>
PS in Australia so I'm probably messaging at odd times but hope for
your input soon
Kind Regards,
Thai Pham
<My Pleasure.>
<MikeV>
Quinine Sulfate: Good for a
stocked tank? Follow up questions on Published WWM FAQs
12/10/2009
Thanks heaps MikeV.
<Hi Thai.>
The only thing I need to take out of the tank is the hermit crab
then.
<Snails, clams, etc.>
Don't have anything else apart from it, rock and fish. Didn't
notice any white spot on blue ring angel today so I might have
misdiagnose. Will give it one or two days careful observations before I
go try Quinine Sulphate.
Once again thanks for your advice.
<Very good. In response to your other questions in a separate email,
It is dosed at 1/4 teaspoon (1.25 ml) per 10 gallons (38 l) with a 50%
water change after 7 days. Remove all chemical filtration (Carbon, etc)
from the system and turn any UV or skimmers off.>
<As to where to purchase, you can try
http://www.nationalfishpharm.com I don't know if they will ship to
AU, but it is worth a look, Otherwise, you can consult with a
veterinarian.>
Thai
<MikeV>
Quinine Sulphate Treatment for
Ich 12/3/09
Greetings to my FAVORITE people at WWM!
I cannot tell you how much I appreciate Bob and the whole crew.
<I sense your earnest friendship and thank you>
Well, I should have taken Bob's advice on November 10th and removed
all my fishes from my 225 gallon reef and treated them with
hyposalinity and ordered Quinine Sulphate. Not listening to wisdom
caused me the lives of my favorite Kole Tang, two little Neon Gobies,
and I think my Filament Wrasse
(his MIA since Thanksgiving night when I DID FINALLY TOOK ALL THE
FISHES OUT).
The reason for me to write is not only to pay respect for the knowledge
at WWM but also to share some information that I've learned about
Quinine Sulphate and some "other" treatments.
<Ahh, please do>
I wasted time by attempting to treat with "REEF SAFE"
products: Ich Attack, Herbtana, Kick Ich. They were all indeed REEF
SAFE, my hermits, shrimps, urchin, worms were all alive and well after
two weeks of using those products concurrently. I can't say they
killed ich because my fish still had them, but I cannot say that they
might not help them some as they did not decline in health until after
two weeks. But this delay caused the lives that I will feel guilty
about for much time to come.
So, on Thanksgiving night I enjoyed moving 260 pounds of live rock and
corals out of my tank to catch the fishes. PBTang, Atlantic Blue Tang,
Flame Angel, Cleaner Wrasse (I know not to ever get these again from
what I've learned here at WWM), Lubbock's Wrasse, Clown Fairy
Wrasse are currently doing much better in a 55 gallon hospital tank.
PBT and ABT were treated with a pH and temperature matched fresh water
dip prior to entering the hospital tank since they were showing the
worst infection.
I then treated with hyposalinity that was dropped over 3 days to 1.009
and then raised over 3 days to 1.020. (Yeah - they did not stay at
1.009 for more than 36 hours as I decided to treat with the Quinine and
I needed to bring salinity back up.)
Tonight is day 1 of Quinine Phosphate treatment.
I dosed at 1/4 teaspoon per 10 gallons. I recommend that people mix
this medication in some tank water prior to putting it in the tank - it
sort of clumped up when put directly in the tank but it is slowly
dissolving.
I contacted National Fish Pharmacy due to conflicting information
regarding dosing schedule. Dr. Aukes there recommended to do ONE
treatment and let the medication sit in there without a water change
for seven days.
<I concur>
Then a 50 percent water change at the end of seven days. Make sure that
UV, protein skimmer are turned OFF. Remove all carbon, Purigen,
etc.
<Yes, all chemical and physical filtration needs to be off,
removed>
Since giving medications, all fishes are looking fine without any signs
of additional stress. Interestingly they are showing areas where
they've been scratching on their skin.
<Yes... pits>
They are actively eating (by the way - Nat'l Fish Pharm recommends
that you DO NOT FEED during treatment to keep water parameters in
acceptable range.)
<Mmm, I'd be feeding sparingly>
I will be feeding some because I think it is good that they eat but
will be monitoring parameters closely and will use water that I'm
made up especially with the purpose of changing water if needed. (20
gallon tank with SG 1.023 and 1/2 teaspoon of Quinine pre-made on the
same date - this way, I believe that the medications will have the same
effectiveness with it's half life.)
I had read at WWM.com that light should be turned off. Dr. Aukes
explained that only UV light would affect the medication. Lights can
stay on with Quinine treatment.
<I agree with this as well>
Well, I do apologize for this long winded recap of the events but just
in case if Chris is not the receiver of this e-mail.
<I will send it on to him>
Again, I cannot thank all of you enough to educate me about the lives
that we take from the ocean. I will always listen to the advice of the
wise, and Bob - you are very wise!
<Heeee! Perhaps a wise-n-heimer at times>
Thank YOU!
Jamie Barclay
<And you for sharing your experience, learning here Jamie. You have
thus saved MANY folks trouble and MANY fish livestock their health.
Cheers, Bob Fenner>
Re: Quinine Sulphate Treatment
for Ich -- 12/09/09
Hello Bob and Crew at WWM!
Just wanted to give you an update on the Quinine Phosphate treatment
and ask a question.
<Please do>
Day 6 of QP and all is looking good. No sign of reinfection or
secondary infection after ich "fell off" on day 2 -3 of QP.
Skin on all the fishes have been cleared and NO SPOTS!
Well, it sure feels good to be able to see the light at the end of the
tunnel after those very "exciting" three weeks. They are
weeks that I hope that I will NEVER have to re-live.
<Amen>
I'm thinking of continuing the QP for a total of 10 days instead of
7 due to Cryptocaryon irritans' life cycle. I'm not sure at
which stage QP is effective against C. irritans, do you know?
<Mostly during the free-swimming stage/s>
All fishes are responding well without signs of undue stress. I've
had to do 10 - 20 gallon water changes daily on the 55 gallon hospital
to keep ammonia in check as I did not have a cycled tank to start out
with (I will be ready
if there is a need in the future!).
My question is that I am going on holiday to the Maldives to do some
snorkeling with hubby (Yippee) and my original plan was to put the
fishes BACK TO DT which will be fallow for 5 weeks at 10 days before we
leave, that way, I can observe them and if I need to,
"capture" them if re-infection occurs BEFORE we leave. The
choice then would be to take them to my LFS and they will keep them in
a 30 gallon running in series with the 10,000 gallon system. Plan two,
is to get a bigger QT, maybe a 90 gallon, run that just like the
hospital tank (bare bottom with PVC condo and plastic plants, couple of
coral skeletons) with seeded filter from my other "ich free"
tanks. That way, my DT can remain fallow for as long as I need - 10
plus weeks, and if the fishes break out with ich while we are gone,
they will be easier to catch.
<I'd go with your first choice, plan here>
I also wanted to just say a really sincere, THANK YOU, to Bob and
everyone at WWM. The amount of valuable information presented at WWM is
truly amazing. I've been reading and learning about QT, Dips, and
responsible aquarium keeping from you all, and I do believe that if it
is not for this web site, I would not have these adoring creatures that
are trying to get me to go feed them right now.
Thank YOU!
Jamie Barclay
<Ahh! Most welcome Jamie. And have a great trip to the Maldives. Bob
Fenner>
Re: Quinine Sulphate Treatment
for Ich -- 12/09/09
Hi Bob!
<Hello Jamie!>
Thanks for the quick response!
Just to make sure that I understand you right...
You said to put them back in the display tank after 5 weeks running
fallow instead of leaving them in a bigger hospital tank and wait till
after I come back to put them in the DT?
<Yes. I would do the former: return these fishes to the main
display>
Is your reasoning behind this that the tank should be rid of C.
irritans after five weeks and it would be less stressful
on the fishes in the DT?
Jamie
<Exactly. Cheers, BobF>
Re: Quinine Sulphate Treatment
for Ich -- 12/09/09
I see what you mean.
I've been looking into this "empty" tank for the past
several days and I see all sorts of life there: I learned about
Columbellids from Lynn and know that they are flourishing in my tank
making lots of egg sacks and seeing some teeny tiny babies crawling
around on my glass, whole families of copepods living on this hole-y
piece of rock - I never knew they can get as big as half an inch with
their whiskers,
<Some species considerably larger!>
I learned that I don't have to "feed" the corals and they
are growing just fine with the nutrients produced by the life in the
tank.
<Yes>
The night I took the fishes out, all I saw was a bunch of rocks piled
in water but now it is teaming with life - it will be a lovely home for
the fishes when they feel better. Not to mention, I'll feel better
as I swim with their relatives in the Maldives.
Have a wonderful evening Bob, and good night!
:)
Jamie
<Ahh! Thank you Jamie. BobF>
Quarantine and Ich
prevention 11/3/09
Hi crew,
<Good morrow to you Claudio>
First of all, a big thank for your effort and precious info on the
site.
<Welcome>
I have a question on proper quarantine protocol and specifically on ich
prevention in the display tank.
<Ok>
My display tank is a 180 g reef that I am trying to keep it as disease
free as I can to the best of my ability. I am quarantining pretty much
everything wet I place inside the display, fish corals, rocks and even
the Chaetomorpha I initially placed in the refugium.
<Sounds good>
(the only things I failed to quarantine were snails, 2 clams and a
Linckia starfish. I know I took a risk there but I was not sure how to
properly quarantine and feed these animals). My display has been
running very well and so far completely disease free for the 6 months
it has been operational.
<All right>
Discussing with many in the hobby I repeatedly hear that a ich free
tank is a myth.
<Mmm, are actually rare, but such "unicorns" do
exist>
I do not subscribe to this statement. As any transmissible disease, if
the offending parasite is not introduced, it may be difficult but
certainly possible to have a ich free system.
<We are in agreement; and I have been to aquaculture facilities of
size that are specific pathogen free>
Given this premise my question is on a proper quarantine protocol and
here I am a little bit confused. As I read the FAQ on QT it is
recommended over and over to QT the fish withholding any treatment
unless disease become evident. As far as crypto is concerned I believe
it is a safe assumption to consider any purchased fish to at least
be
colonized by ich. Surely these fish will have encountered ich at some
point in their journey to our tanks, either in the sea, in the
transhipper holding tanks or the LFS.
<Mmm, possibly. I suspect that the prevalence of Cryptocaryon in the
wild is not high... and many collectors, wholesale facilities are set
up to individually sterilize shared water, utilize net and specimen
container sterilizing techniques...>
Most will have received copper treatment at some point,
<Again, this is a fading practice. The larger, better wholesalers do
not use copper IME>
however one cannot be sure if the proper concentration and necessary
time to eradicate the parasite has been
observed.
<I do agree with this statement>
The QT protocol I have been using is to place new fish on the QT.
Acclimate for several days, then start treatment with Quinine Sulphate
dosed according to manufacture instructions. This medication opposite
to copper causes minimal disruption to the biologic filter and ammonia
spikes have not been a problem. Almost all fish have tolerated this
well, only exception was a diamond goby that appeared overly
stressed..
<Could be attributed to handling, the small environment>
After treatment (usually takes 9 days) the fish are dipped in fresh
water with metilene
<Methylene>
blue and then introduced in the display tank.
Is my reasoning flawed or perhaps I am just over killing?
<Well... as you state you did not isolate some other livestock...
these Protozoan complaints can be vectored by anything wet), there is
some chance there of contamination... But I don't consider your
protocol to be
excessive>
I am relatively new to the hobby and I would truly appreciate if any of
you could elaborate on the matter. This would be very helpful to me and
possibly other who are trying o do "the right thing".
Thanks
Claudio
<I think you're fine here. Bob Fenner>
Re: Hyposalinity, ORP and
Raffles B/F 11/3/09
Thanks for all the great help once again. Quick follow-up...
Should I use Chloroquine phosphate (CP) in the treatment tank now
"just to be safe", or should I wait to see if there are any
sure signs of ich?
<If I had it on hand, I would administer it>
I'm just about done with the hypo treatment, so I wouldn't want
to subject the fish to longer time in QT-like conditions for another
month if unnecessary. One of the FAQs suggested not using hyposalinity
with CP. Do you agree with this?
<Can add stress... but if all the fish livestock are in good health
otherwise...>
If so, I'll need to take a week or so to up the salinity before
starting CP.
<Okay>
If I go ahead and use CP in the treatment tank, is it necessary to
perform a bath before returning the fish to the display?
<Not necessary, no>
Also, in the treatment tank, I had put in some sand and a few live
rocks to make the fish comfortable and to give a head start on the
bacteria since I was adding so many fish to a new startup (also had to
use Stability and Prime and plenty of water changes until the ammonia
and nitrites were down to zero). Lighting has been very low (and
I'll turn off the tank lights entirely during treatment), so
there's not much in the way of
algae. Should I remove the sand and/or rocks before using the CP?
<I would not. The chance, likely loss of biofiltration there is
appreciable>
Or is it safe to leave the sand and rocks, since there are no
inverts/corals and little algae in the treatment tank?
<I would, yes>
I guess I will find a new home for the lion (sad). Even a neon cleaner
goby would be at risk.
<Mmm, actually, not too likely.>
I saw a recommendation of 2 cleaner shrimp per 50g. If I wanted to get
a neon goby as well, do I need to scale back the number of cleaner
shrimp, or does it not matter, since neither the goby nor the shrimp
rely exclusively on parasites to feed?
<Up to you>
I was thinking about 6 L. amboinensis, 2 L. debelius and 1 G.
oceanops.
Thanks again!
Sean
<Welcome. BobF>
RE: Hyposalinity, ORP and Raffles B/F
Wow! That was fast, and VERY helpful. Thanks again!
<Welcome. B>
Copper and quarantine tank: A
textbook opportunity to use Quinine. 8/23/2009
Hi Crew.
<Hi Claudio.>
First of all thank you for the wonderful site.
<Our pleasure.>
I have a question on copper use and quarantine tanks.
<Shoot.>
Here is the situation. I upgraded from a 40G SW tank to a 180G. The
180G has ~ 160 lb of rocks that have been cured for 1-1/2 months on a
separate vat. The 180G has been running for about a week cycling with a
cooked shrimp. It has not gone through the ammonia spike, nitrite,
nitrate process yet. In the meantime I took down the old tank that was
succumbing to Cyano and hair algae (I have never been able to keep NO3
and PO4 low for some reason). I saved the live rocks, cleaned them and
placed on a separate container with a powerhead and no light.
<Thank you for these details.>
I placed the fish ( a yellow tang and a clown fish) into a 20G
quarantine tank with a hang on filter and a remora C hang on filter.
The quarantine tank was properly cycled and had 0 ammonia, 0 nitrite
and 2 ppm nitrate.
<All sounds good so far.>
My fish at some point years ago had ich, they got over it and never had
it again. I would hate to introduce ich on the new 180g and probably my
fish are colonized by it even without evident infection.
<it is a safe bet it is in your tank, as well as everyone else who
keeps a SW tank It is just a matter of keeping the infection under
control.>
For this reason I decided to quarantine the fish and treat them with
copper (Cupramine)
for 4 weeks prior to introducing them on the new tank. The fish have
been on the quarantine tank for 1 week without copper and the water
parameters were unchanged from the one mentioned above.
<Generally not the best of practices. I can understand your
rationale for doing so, but copper is very stressful on
fish.>
As I went to buy Cupramine I saw a beautiful powder brown tang ~
3" and since I was going to quarantine the old fish I decided to
go ahead and buy it. It is a good specimen, healthy, actively swimming
and feeding well. Here I should have done more research since it turned
out to be A. Nigricans and not A. Japonicus and I now know the
difference in adaptability to a captive environment between the two
species.
<You are in for a challenge.>
I decided to give the new fish some time to adapt prior to adding
copper.
For 3 days all was well. The new tang had a good color, was swimming
very actively, eating well flake food from my hands. It had a few light
turf war with the yellow tang but after about 1 day they stopped
bothering each other. About 12h after introduction in the QT, the new
tang showed 1 or 2 small white spots, I was not sure if it was ich or
just some mucus. Those went away the 3 day. As said everything was well
so thinking it was ich on day 5 I decided to go with the original plan
and start copper.
<At least now there is a rationale for doing so.>
I added Cupramine as per manufacture instruction and I tested a level
at 0.3 ppm. The following day all 3 fish were acting stressed. The new
tang coloration faded and was looking more stressed than the other
fish. I tested the water and I had a spike in ammonia, nitrite and
nitrate.
Ammonia was at 0.5 ppm, nitrite at 0.5 ppm and nitrate at 10 ppm.
<Killed the biological filter.>
I went ahead and did a 50% water change with aged SW I prepared few
days prior just in case.
<Excellent planning ahead on your part.>
The following day I still had some ammonia (0.2) much less nitrite
(0.1) and almost no copper. The older fish seem to have recovered to
their normal. The PB tang is regaining its coloration, is swimming more
actively and runs to feed and eat really well whereas barely feed the
previous day.
<An encouraging sign..
I did another 30% water change today and things are looking better.
<Good.>
I believe the copper has killed the nitrifying bacteria and this is the
reason for the spikes in ammonia, NO2 and NO3.
<You are correct.>
The question is how do I proceed from here? I was planning to give the
fish some time to recover from this insult.
<You have another, more expensive, but less stressful option -
quinine>
Do water changes to keep water condition as pristine as I can. I am
concerned though that as I re dose copper the situation is going to
deteriorate again. I am also not sure if the PBT is also particularly
sensitive to copper.
<No more than other tangs, but add copper on top of stress.>
I really would like to go through the planned copper treatment. I do
not want to risk bringing ich to the new tank.
<Again, this is an opportunity to use quinine. You can read about
its application here http://www.wetwebmedia.com/quinmedfaqs.htm There
is also a link to an online retailer that sells it. You want Quinine
Sulfate.>
Sorry for the long post, I would really appreciate some help here.
<Since you now have ich, you do have to treat. I am a big fan of
Quinine - It is more expensive, but it is much less stressful than
copper.>
PS. One more question about the old live rocks. They are beautiful
rocks and I would like to be able to use them on the new set-up,
however since the old rocks were once covered with Cyano and hair
algae, I am afraid to bring those scourges to the new tank. Now they
are looking clean. Is there a way to "de contaminate" them so
that they can be reused?
<Quinine works well here as well, will kill Cyano.>.
Thanks Again
<My pleasure. I would like to take a moment and commend you on your
practices. Everything you have done thus far has been 'by the
book'>
Claudio
<MikeV>
Re: Copper and quarantine tank:
A textbook opportunity to use Quinine. 8/25/2009
<Hi Caludio>
Thank You Mike for the answer.
<My pleasure.>
I bought Quinine Sulfate and I'll try it as soon as it arrives.
<Excellent, I think you will be happy with the results.>
In the meantime hopefully the fish will fully recover and the
biological filter will get reestablished.
<It will - you can add a good piece of live rock to the system to
help it along.>
I read the FAQ on quinine sulfate and there are different recommended
regimens.
<Yes.>
The prevalent one seems to be 1/8 teaspoon per 10 gallons, repeat in 3
days with a 25% water change in the interim, repeat 3 times (9 day
treatment) then keep the fish in quarantine for the remaining time to 4
weeks. While treating, no skimmer, no carbon, only ambient light. Is
this the plan you recommend or do you suggest anything different?
<This is the method that has met with the most success and the one I
would use.>
Thanks
<As always, my pleasure. Do write back and let us know how it all
works out. We are really trying to increase our 'library' on
quinine.>
Claudio
<MikeV>
disease help... Retail, whlse,
competence 7/23/09
Hello
<Salud>
I brought in an Asfur angel, an Imperator, two Copperbanded Butterfly,
part of the initial order for our new store from one of the
"top" LA wholesalers.
<... Okay...>
They were put into 3 separate 30 gallon quarantine systems. Within 48
hours the two angels and one copper developed Lymphocystis. The
Imperator additionally showed what I thought at the time was several
spots of Crypto in the same pectoral fin displaying the
Lymphocystis.
One butterfly also showed a few spots, as well as the Asfur. Everybody
was given copper (Cupramine following manufactures dosage level checked
daily with Salifert kit) A week later, no response to copper as far as
the spots,
<So... what had you learned?>
and I noticed that after two weeks all the original spots are intact.
None seem to rupture. Now yesterday The second butterfly literally from
one hour to the next showed a raised patch of scales and heavy
breathing.
<Copper poisoning, plus stress, equals...?>
The patch began to show redness and I moved him to a smaller hospital
tank with copper and added Kanamycin sulfate, a couple of hours later
he was gone. The other fish all behave normally and eat well but with
no improvement in the spots. I do not have a microspore available right
now or I would sample to
the spots to confirm crypto. Is it possible that it is not crypto?
Should I try quinine sulfate?
<Not at all likely Cryptocaryon... and why would you use a
Quinine?>
Any Ideas?
<All sorts>
I have been miserable with the fish I have received. Until recently I
only used trans shippers and have always been aggressive with treating
diseases with tremendous success. Because it is a new store we felt
we could get a more complete cross section of fish by using a good
wholesaler and we did our research,
<Mmm, not obvious from this email... I would NOT treat large angels
or Chelmons with chelated copper... I WOULD have dipped/bathed all
new/incoming fishes... per the protocols listed on WWM>
but now the number of losses and the difficulty in treatment is very
upsetting. I even confronted them with
the fact that at least one fish was shipped with visible parasites. No
actual response.
<Let's not banter about here. Please name the companies
involved>
Any help will certainly be appreciated. We take the survival of the
fish very seriously, and although we are a new store, I have been doing
aquariums including reefs since the mid 80.s
Thanks
Gabriel
<Gabe... do state whether you'd like your business, the
wholesaler not to be named. Bob Fenner>
Re: disease help... SW, crypt
f'? 7/24/09
Hi Bob
Thank you for replying, as for the store we are aquarium encounters, In
New York. The fish are from SDC, they are certainly great people and I
know Eric is an especially nice guy and very knowledgeable but I also
know they are huge and things can get past. I don't want to get
into any problems with them but I need to know what to do in the future
as far as disease, Quarantine etc. As far as fresh water bath/dip I
always do that for every fish these included.
<My input re SOP for fish and invert. groups is posted, has occurred
in periodicals and books for decades>
As far as the quinine sulfate that was the suggestion of national Fish
Pharmacy. The truth is I had run into crypto like diseases years ago
that did not respond to Cu and I was very successful with Quinacrine
hydrochloride (ala Dr. Edward Kingsford).
<Yowzah! We do go back a fair piece. I am also a huge fan of Quinine
compounds for protozoan complaints>
Right now this whole project (opening the store) has drained me
physically and mentally, and Oh yeah monetarily.
<I do understand this... Steady on>
I Have three partners who financed most of it, but I did everything
from scratch myself from woodworking to acrylic and all design,
engineering you name it. We had several delays and have had to by
several month rent without opening , more pressure. We are trying to
open within a week and everyone who has come in has loved it. It looks
more like a small public aquarium than a typical fish store. I have
right now about 120 aquariums running with close to half salt water, we
also have a hands on science discovery center which we are finishing
up.
<Nice>
I am embarrassed right now to admit that my background is in marine
science and my independent research during my undergraduate work was in
marine fish parasitology and I teach college Bio.
<... why embarrassed?>
I expected the answers you gave me, so if I know what I am doing, why
am I having all these problems and making stupid mistakes?
<Really... does happen>
Maybe I am just plain exhausted from 10 -14 hour days in the store
while keeping up with my "real job" I am also under
tremendous pressure from my partners and I don't have the luxury of
being scientific about things with them breathing on me.
My microscope should be here shortly as well as my other lab stuff and
I hope to get back on track.
Why am I telling you this?
<Because we are human... is there more?>
I respect your opinion and advice, and I have no one to vent to, that
knows a drop about what I am doing or going through.
Thank you for your time. I let you know what happens with the fish, I
hope to have the opportunity to meet you.
Gabriel
<We shall meet. BobF>
Re: disease help, SW, comm.,
Protozoan 7/26/2009
Hello
I have my lab equipment, the fish I first wrote you about definitely
have crypto, as well as some other yet unidentified ecto parasite embed
in the fins. Slightly larger cysts slightly more translucent than
crypto.
In the meanwhile, three more butterfly fish as well as a lemon peel a
chevron tang and an arc eyed hawk all have definite crypto. Now that I
a whole central system infected, what do you recommend, according
to
national fish pharm.
I should treat the whole system with quinine sulfate,
<This or Quinacrine Hydrochloride would be my choice>
I do not want to use any copper if possible, and in truth the copper as
I wrote earlier did not work as yet, except to kill the Copperbanded
butterfly.
Please any help is greatly appreciated, I refuse to become one of the
stores hose goal is to sell fish quick before they die, or just make
them someone else's problem
Gabriel
<Do try either Quinine cpd. Gabriel... System-wide... Do you have Ed
Noga's book handy? BobF>
Re: disease help some additional
info to the email just sent 7/26/2009
Hello again
I forgot to mention all the fish that I found to be infected were given
dips, I also have to add a Kole tang and Declivis butterfly to the
list.
They are all on one central system but in different aquariums Help!
Gabriel
<Could well be that the Protozoans were too far embedded to be
excised by dip/baths... Does happen. BobF>
Re: disease help some additional
info to the email just sent, Crypt., Quinine --
07/28/09
Bob,
Thank you for the help, I treated the whole system with the quinine
sulfate, as I did not want the water in the stock tanks to turn yellow
and I also believe that it is less light sensitive. One question, I
have a piece of
base or live rock in almost every tank, I removed most but left some
pieces to see what would happen, I assumed the quinine would wipe out
the rock, so far after 24 hrs the coralline algae is losing its color,
but the worms and large amphipods are wriggling and swimming about on
and under the rock. I thought they would go first.
<Mmm, no... Quinines mainly affect Protozoans...>
If they should have, could it be the med. is under dosed or otherwise
ineffective?
<Other biota will reduce the effectiveness, or put another way, more
medicant will have to be added to have physiological effect if there is
more biomass/metabolic interaction>
So far all the fish seem to be doing well with exception of a Kole tang
who is re-infested 48 hrs after a dip, and 24 hrs after adding the med.
I am following the dosage recommended by National Fish Pharm.
Gabriel
<I'd stay with their protocol. BobF>
Quinine..sulfate or phosphate???
5/11/09
Hi Crew,
<Simon>
For the poster to this query today there is a couple of very cheap
sources here in the UK - I don't know if that is it useful to them
or not:
http://www.chemistdirect.co.uk/avloclor-250mg-chloroquine-phosphate-tablets_
1_3474.html
http://www.pills2u.co.uk/5188/-AVLOCLOR-Tablets.html?referrer=froogle&utm_so
urce=google&utm_medium=froogle&utm_campaign=pid5188to
Thanks to all!!!
Simon Trippick
<Thank you for this valuable input. For folks looking in the U.S.,
fishy pharmacy: http://www.fishyfarmacy.com/symptoms.html
is a ready source. Bob Fenner>
Re:
Quinine..sulfate or phosphate??? 5/11/09
Mr. Fenner,
Thanks for the response. I read the link you listed above which had
lots of good info. My main confusion is why do you recommend CP over
QS?
Thanks again.
<Is more "broad spectrum"... treats more
"things" more effectively. BobF>
My fish are infested with ich,
SW, reading -- 10/10/08 Greetings , <Salutations>
My fish are infested with ich. I currently have them in a 10 gallon
tank, and am treating them with copper. I should have a larger tank as
there is a Yellow Tang, Sailfin Tang , Hippo Tang, Flame Angel, and a
Bicolor Angel all sharing mouse 10 gallon quarantine tank. <...
dangerous... too much life period, physio- and psycho-logically
squeezed in here> The copper treatment is about 5-7 days, <I
would not use copper on Tangs or Centropyge... Do (quickly) read about
Chloroquine use here> which hopefully will cure the fish. <Mmm...
too likely not... hard to keep a physiological dose up in such a
setting... and too toxic...> However, ich is still present in the
display tank, <Yes> and is bound to re-infect the fish if I put
them back into the tank, which means that I should leave the display
tank empty without fish for a while. <Correct> My question is,
how long? <At least four weeks... longer, better> I read about 31
days, but then again, I read that the ich can remain alive for months
even without a host present. <Can> I am going to raise the
temperature to 82-85 in the main tank, but am concerned about the
livestock remaining in the tank which are two lettuce Nudibranch, one
scooter blenny (which we have not been able to catch), one Coral Banded
Shrimp, too cleaner shrimp, about 80 snails, several red leg crabs, a
Sally Lightfoot, and a wonderful, slithery white ribbon-like eel.
<... the eel is/will act as a reservoir host here... Do you realize
this?> Which of these critters is susceptible to ich? I have read
that eels are somewhat resistant, is this true? <Yes> I do not
want to go through the procedure of leaving this tank fallow for
however long is necessary, only to put the fish back in for them to get
re-infested. <... Understood> I really appreciate your help and
advice with this problem. Best regards, Jeff <Mmm, well...
T'were it me, I would NOT treat the families of fishes mentioned
with Copper for Cryptocaryon... and NOT in such a small volume... the
Eel needs to be removed... and you need to read re the use of Quinine
cpd.s... Stat! Bob Fenner>
Re: My fish are infested with
ich, SW, reading Chloroquine -- 10/10/08 Advice taken
Bob, thank you very much for your prompt reply. Best regards, Just
Castaldo <I am very excited to find this anti malarial being found
to be of such great use... and look forward to the price dropping, its
availability improving with increased interest. Cheers,
BobF>
FAQ on Quinine Compounds 8/8/07 This
is just some info, since I just used some of this medication, and what
I got to experience, if it helps anyone, good. I read all of the
Quinine Compound FAQ, there was a lot of negative info on Quinine
Hydrochloride. I used Quinine Sulfate, recommended by National Fish
Pharmacy, which was very effective on my ich problem. It is not toxic,
apparently, to hermit crabs, which I suppose are resilient little
creatures, but it is very toxic to other invertebrates! I had 6 turbo
snails in the tank (or so I thought) which I removed and placed in my
20 gallon, but apparently I had 8, and within a half hour of adding the
Quinine Sulfate, the remaining two snails were belly up on the bottom.
It isn't an instant killer, because they were fine after I quickly
snatched them out and put them in the other tank. Anyway, I just wrote
this to tell about a specific experience. I can see where it can get
confusing, i.e. Copper = Good for fish, bad for inverts & sharks;
Quinine Hydrochloride = bad for fish and inverts and most likely
sharks; Quinine Sulfate = good for fish and sharks, bad for inverts.
Oh, and from experience past, Kent Marine RXP = safe for fish and
inverts, also safe for ich. DOES NOT WORK. :) Thanks again, gentlemen
& ladies... Thomas <Thank you for this input Tom. BobF>
Need help finding a cure... <Crypt/Velvet?...
Chloroquine...> 8/28/05 Wow.. what a wealth of knowledge you
have and I am so thankful you are sharing this knowledge with us! I
love your site and though there is soooo much information on your site
it can make things difficult to find, but with a bit patience and lots
of searching I can usually find answers to almost anything.. I do
commend you (and the rest of WWM crew) for the time and effort you put
into this amazing hobby. well.. I wouldn't be e-mailing you if here
wasn't a problem.. so here goes.. We have a 1500 gallon system..
yes 1500 gallons, my husbands dream (I love it too : ) but I can at
least blame it all on him : ). It is actually 5 tanks that line two
walls of our basement all on one filtration system which is located in
the garage. The tanks have been up and running about a year now and we
are slowly getting them stocked and arranged. It is a slow and
expensive process as you are aware. I guess with adding new items to
the tanks we are always at risk. We have a separate 400 gallon tank we
are using as a quarantine tank. <All water, gear... separated>
For some unknown reason.. maybe adding new corals to the tank we had an
outbreak of what we believed to be ich. we removed all of the fish
except for the ones in the reef.. (Powder blue tang, 3 blennies and a
mandarin goby). <Mmm, if there are fish/es present in part of the
system, they will act as "reservoir hosts" (scientific
term)...> So now in the 400 gallon QT tank we have the following:
Pink Tail trigger, Nigger trigger, Naso Tang, 3 yellow tangs, Blue
hippo tang, skunk clown fish, emperor angel, blue faced angel, purple
tang and a golden puffer... (there was also a clown trigger, lemon peel
angel and long horned cowfish, but they recently passed) Ah yes. the
golden puffer.. here is where our problem lies... Since we
do have a puffer we cannot and do not want to use the conventional
copper medication for fear of killing him. We have always
used Hyposalinity in the past with great success, however they have
been in hypo for about a week now with no improvement. the fish we left
in the reef part of the main system actually look better than the ones
in the QT tank. Only thing we can come up with is marine velvet..
<Mmm, for the many dollars you have invested in this system,
livestock, ongoing operational costs, I would invest in an inexpensive
microscope, learn to use it... not hard, expensive...> and only
medication we could come up with people actually having success with
was Aquatronics Marex which contained Chloroquine <di>Phosphate.
However to my findings over the past two days.. Aquatronics has gone
out of business and that medication cannot be found. <Mmm,
actually...> I am having great difficulties finding another med with
the same ingredient or a vet to prescribe me Chloroquine Phosphate
because they do not specialize in fish... Do you have any suggestions
on obtaining this medication or another med that may help with external
parasites that will not harm our puffer? <Careful use of chelated
copper along with hyposalinity... of all fishes... would be my
choice... If you are convinced that you'd like to try Chloroquine
diphosphate (note spelling) this compound can be procured for human use
(used to treat malaria)... expensive... from a medical doctor
source> I have read so many articles on FW dips, but would Hypo not
have the same effect? <Mmm, generally not... the rapid change in
osmotic pressure is often of much more immediate relief, destruction to
single-celled animals> If we try to FW dip can we dip multiple fish
at once and change FW between "groups". How long can you
leave them in there without causing too much stress or harming them
more? <... this is posted on WWM> You have my utmost gratitude
for any help or suggestions with this.... Thanks for your time!! Jatana
<I strongly encourage you to have local folks... guru/s from a
marine hobby club, expert service company personnel... come to your
site, inspect your fishes, system... help devise (and soon) a workable
plan for isolating, treating ALL your fishes... and carefully
quarantine all future purchases. Along with the microscope, I cannot
urge you enough to procure a copy of Edward J. Noga's "Fish
Disease Diagnosis and Treatment". Bob Fenner>