FAQs about Pet-fishing & Human Health:
Skin, Eye... Contact... Toxins... Stings
Related Articles: Wounds
Articles, Moray Eels
Bite, But Are They Venomous? by Marco Lichtenberger,
Related FAQs: Petfishing and Human Health 1, Petfish & Health 2, Petfishing & Human Health 3, & FAQs on:
Petfishing Concerns: Getting Poked,
Spined, Stuck, Envenomized
(injected), Bitten, Poisoning (ingesting), Companion Animal Involvement, Troubleshooting/Fixing, Bacterial Infections, Parasitic Cross Zoonoses, Turn About's Fair Play... Stingrays,
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A very good idea... particularly if you have a
compromised immune system... and/or are dealing with toxic or
sharp life, decor... is to wear, very-long length gloves when
your hands are in your tanks.
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Re: Mycobacterial Infection
1/21/20
Bob,
<Eric>
Thought you might be interested. There is a company called Aquabiomics that
does DNA testing on water samples and Biobeds.
<Have just read over their pdf>
I paid to get my tank tested and surprisingly there was no DNA evidence of
M. Marinum in my tank.
<See this; in fact 0.0 incidence of all Fish pathogens... Bizarre>
Either I got the infection elsewhere (open wound/wet counter at LFS) or the
bacteria was out competed. I attached my report if your interested in
looking over.
<Surprised (very) at how much detail is available (presumably to all) in
such a service. And, my understanding was that Mycobacteria were common, in
fact ubiquitous in marine aquariums; perhaps not super numerary, but not 0.0
present. Bob Fenner>
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Re: Mycobacterial Infection 1/22/20
Bob,
<Eric>
My tank actually has quite a bit of mycobacteria but none of the actual
fish pathogen.
<... am wondering how they (the lab) distinguishes twixt the two?>
The first page actually breaks down all the different types of bacteria
which was found. Here was the owner's thoughts on my report.
I had both of my tanks tested.
"Hi Eric,
I’m writing with some thoughts on your results, to share my perspective
based on looking at a few of these recently. From the info you logged
with your samples, I see that your tanks differ in age, and in terms of
problems reported (Dinos in the 450, macro in the 750). I'll interpret
your results in this context so please correct me if I've gotten that
wrong.
Both of your tanks had diverse communities, in the upper half of tanks
I've sampled. Based on the info logged with your samples, it looks like
the diversity follows the trend that we're coming to expect -- reduced
diversity with age.
<Yes to this; a general trend in all captive (and disturbed) systems>
What is striking is how high the diversity is in your 450. I'm guessing
you started this with some good live rock? It'd be interesting to hear
how more about the history of this tank (If you have already described
in PMs or emails please let me know and I will review them.) If its a
new tank, that is a really impressive diversity score.
<I agree>
Both tanks showed low balance scores, indicating that the balance of
microbial families was very different in your tanks than in the typical
tank. Please note this does not necessarily mean there is anything wrong
with your tank - it just puts a number on how similar or different your
tank is from others. In your case, both are pretty different.
To explore the reasons for these low balance score we can look at the
community barplots (part 2). Both tanks are very low in
Pelagibacteracea, which are dominant in the open ocean, a major part of
the typical reef tank microbiome, and are specialized for low nutrient
conditions. This happens in many tanks, and I'm not saying its a
problem. But it is a common difference between some tanks and the
microbiome of a natural reef. Both tanks are also low in
Flavobacteriacea, and your 750 is also low
in Alteromonadaceae.
It is interesting that neither tank has much Alteromonadaceae. Usually
when the Pelagibacteracea are low, the Alteromonadaceae bloom. Your
tanks show a different pattern.
In their place, your tanks have a relatively large amount of
Vibrionaceae.
This group is mostly members of the genus Vibrio, a genus that we find
in every tank. But it is also a genus full of pathogens. Vibrios are
associated with animals, and I typically see these in heavily stocked
tanks (including invertebrates like corals) - your 750 certainly fits
the image in my mind for a high Vibrio tank, lots of animal tissue
relative to macroalgae or bare rock.
<Again>
When I see atypical balance I start thinking about nutrients, meaning
more than just NO3 and PO4 (but those too). Do you feed your two tanks
differently? That may help us diagnose the reasons for the differences
in balance scores and community compositions.
Both tanks showed low levels of nitrifying microbes, but not unusually
so.
My view here is that a tank can process N through three different
pathways (nitrification, heterotrophic assimilation, or photoautotrophic
assimilation). Your tanks both show low levels of ammonia oxidizing
microbes and undetectable nitrite oxidizing bacteria, which suggests the
other processes are competing for N. I do not view this as a problem to
be solved, but as a description of how the microbial community has
responded to competition for ammonia. Like many tanks (including all my
display tanks), yours appears to not rely entirely on nitrification for
removal of NH3. I see you have a macro refugium in the 750. Is there any
algal competition in the 450? (aside from the Dinos, that is! maybe
that's enough to explain it)
Both tanks are free of known fish and coral pathogens.
As far as Mycobacteria -- I looked at this one in detail for your
samples.
The database I use includes (GreenGenes) perfect matches to
*Mycobacterium marinum*. None of these were detected in your sample or
any other. Like most tanks, yours include various other members of
*Mycobacterium *, most of which are uncharacterized species. In your
tanks, these are dominated by
3 types, none of these are close matches to *M. marinum*, they all match
other uncharacterized *Mycobacterium *clones more closely. The total
levels of Mycobacteria were also not unusual in your tanks, at the 78th
and 85th percentiles.
I hope this is useful and am happy to continue discussing your results,
but that is an overview."
<Thank you for sharing. BobF>
Re: Mycobacterial Infection 1/23/20
Hey Bob, no issues sharing any of the pictures I sent. If you need me to
resend I certainly can. Just let me know. So the DNA sample included a
direct water sample filtered through some contraption that was sent in.
Additionally q-tip swabs of inside the return lines were taken. I am
assuming the swabs were the main source of the sample.
<Ahh, thank you Eric. I did send along your corr. to friend and fish
pathologist (w/ a bkgd in Mycobacteria esp. In fact there's a pc. by him on
the subject posted on WWM), Myron Roth. Do please re-send images of the
site/would for his perusal. BobF>
Re: Mycobacterial Infection 1/23/20
Not sure why I sent you a photo of my leopard wrasse. Here was the day zero
photo after the biopsy.
<Mmm; sent on to Myron. B>
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Re: Mycobacterial Infection 1/23/20
Bob,
<Eric>
Here are a few photos that he can use. There are a few to show how I
responded during treatment and the residual scar. If possible do you think
you can see if Myron can comment on how effective taking actual swabs of the
inside of the return lines and drains would be? I think that is what they
use for the majority of the samples and what was sent in. This is in
addition to the water sample filters he was referencing. How they extract
the dna from that is a bit out of my league. He did mention and was pretty
confident that if M. Marinum was in the tank it would show up on the test.
That is assuming I took the samples correctly but different Mycobacterium
species were found so I must have did something right.
<Am asking him here>
Now for the million dollar question. Do you think it's safe to add a new
fish too the tank?
<I do think it is safe (enough). Put another way, I would do so>
The current stock is healthy and acting normal. I've only had 1 fish die in
the tank in the last year and that was in June and likely related to a
spinal injury from crashing into the top of tank. Was looking at putting in
a Foxface to help with algae control.
I also attached a photo of the display so you can see the tank.
<BobF>
Re: Mycobacterial Infection 1/23/20
Bob,
<Eric>
I know Myron also posed another question regarding overall sensitivity.
Here was the response I got.
<Forwarded>
Eli, quick question for you. It would be interesting to know how much of a
non pathogenic/pathogenic reference would it take to get a positive result.
In other words, what’s the limit of detection of the system for a single
species of bacteria?
"Eric, Important but also a challenging question. Its not easy to put an
exact number on the answer, because its affected by a few unknowns. I
estimate one per several thousand cells.
To increase sensitivity further we could make small improvements by spending
a *lot* more money on sequencing, or larger improvements by filtering a
larger volume of water.
It would be interesting to answer your question experimentally by adding a
known concentration of cells that are not already present in the aquarium,
then immediately sampling to measure their relative abundance. Of course it
will be affected by the existing concentration of cells in the aquarium, I
will have to think some more about how to measure the limit effectively this
way."
Re: Mycobacterial Infection 1/23/20
Bob,
Some more. Sorry for the background colors. Not sure how to get rid of it.
Legal disclaimers first, I cannot offer medical advice and would have to say
the same if the bug was detected.
<Understood>
But speaking generally about detecting either organisms or genes with DNA
sequencing, its generally hard to be certain about a negative, right? Not
saying that either to dodge the question or to be snarky. Its genuinely
something we often would like to know (is this thing truly absent) but its
never easy to be sure.
<I don't know; really... I'd guess/surmise that "w/in the sensitivity" of
the test (gear), a negative has some validity (confidence limits in the
quantitative sciences)>
One thing in our favor, *M. marinum* is free living and infections occur
from exposure to the water itself. So our sampling method should be able to
capture it. The sample of 60 ml is expected to contain over 6 million cells
based on the typical range of microbial densities in aquarium water. So
we're sampling this population pretty deeply, millions of cells. Overall our
sampling should be a reasonably effective way of capturing the cells if they
are in the aquarium.
So the DNA I extracted and prepared for sequencing should reflect
contributions from millions of microbes. Our sequencing of 10,000 reads
didn't turn it up, but perhaps its there at very low levels (1 in 1
million?) I cannot rule that out. Sequencing that deeply would be
prohibitively costly. And even then we'd wonder what if its here at 1 per 10
million? etc.
<The folks familiar w/ the process and equipment should be able to tell you
this. I cannot>
It looks like there are PCR based methods for specific detection of M.
marinum. These will be more sensitive than the general 16S primers I used to
amplify (in principle) all Bacteria & Archaea. I have your DNA samples in
hand, so this will be an interesting test case. If its absent from the
standard 16S tests, is it also absent from the more sensitive species
specific test? It won't be instant, but I can order those primers with my
next batch and keep you posted. I'll check this at the level of PCR, so we
won't have to wait for sequencing results to come back.
<BobF>
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Worm crawled in my skin 7/22/19
Good afternoon
<Marie>
I hope you can help me. I recently went snorkeling with the manatees in
crystal river Florida (brackish water) I was wearing a wetsuit and
walking along the floor of the river near a small spring they call
Jurassic spring. As I was getting ready to get back on the tour boat I
noticed a tiny brownish colored worm crawling into the palm of my hand.
<... unusual>
Which I pulled out right away. Got up on deck and saw one on the top of
my foot. It was probably a water inch long or smaller and lead pencil
size in diameter. I asked the captain and tour guide if they knew what
they are and they said no. I'm afraid this is a parasite and don’t know
how to identify it without a sample or picture and after the episode I
developed what feels like symptoms of pinworms about 4 days later. Now
my cat recently went to the vet with tapeworm and roundworms as well. I
was prescribed a medicine for fluke worm and pinworms but not sure
that’s exactly what i have. I’ve yet to get a stool sample to submit for
ova parasites. And I’ve seen no pinworms in my poop.
Thanks for any help here. I’m stumped!
<I encourage you to contact the folks at DAN (Dive Alert Network) w/
your concern. I don't think this is a "pinworm"; such are spread via
oral ingestion of eggs. Bob Fenner>
Mycobacterial Infection
5/7/19
Bob,
<Hey Eric>
I scraped my hand cleaning the back of the aquarium. 2 weeks later developed a
large gnarly looking nodule with oozing and crusting right where the scrape was.
Did a week of antibiotics and steroid creams and nothing. Finally went to the
dermatologist as it is now a month later with no change.
<... what did the dermatologist say, speculate? Did they sample, culture?>
Preliminary diagnosis is Fish Tank Granuloma pending biopsy results and culture
but really nothing else it could be. My question is shouldn't my fish be sick
from this as well. This is basically fish TB right?
<Mmm; possibly. IF you don't think you're getting satisfaction, I'd look for
another Dr. Bob Fenner>
Thanks,
Eric
Re: Mycobacterial Infection
5/7/19
Thanks for getting back to me. He thinks it's Mycobacterium Marinum.
Should I be treating all my fish with some type of antibiotic as well.
<Mmm; no... this gram neg., rod... bacterium is pretty much omnipresent in
marine aquariums, the oceans...>
If the derm is right I must say I am pretty unlucky here.
<No as well; not uncommon. Bob Fenner>
Re: Mycobacterial Infection
5/7/19
Thanks Bob. In the future is it safe to put my hands in this tank? I am talking
about gluing frags to rocks etc. Skin contact with water is okay right? The
problem is with open wounds, etc correct?
<... Am a huge fan of keeping hands out of systems; ONLY putting in w/
full-length gloves. Bob Fenner>
Re: Mycobacterial Infection
5/7/19
Bob,
<Eric>
Last question. I have read articles about having to break down tanks and
disinfect everything. Also that splashing water and dried old water can still
harbor the bacteria.
<Yes; that is my understanding as well>
I am a little worried about my kids here. Can this be inhaled and cause lung
disease through siphoning?
<Mmm; that I do doubt. However, I am a big fan of "bleaching systems in place"
to sterilize.
Do read here re the elements:
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/PlantedTksSubWebIndex/clndecorag.htm
Bob Fenner>
Re: Mycobacterial Infection
5/8/19
Bob,
So essentially I would have to euthanize the fish and corals, etc?
<? No; remove them, all other life you want to keep first. B>
Re: Mycobacterial Infection
5/8/19
Is it necessary that I euthanize the fish and coral and bleach the tank?
This us utterly shocking to me as I have had most of my coral for over a decade
and most of my fish for over 5 years.
<... No... you mentioned disinfecting the system itself. Eric; perhaps a bit
more delving, reading...
Microbes are all about, on, in us... most of them, and the vast majority of
time, not pathogenic>
Re: Mycobacterial Infection
5/8/19
Thanks Bob. Must have taken your response out of context. So really I do not
have to disinfect the tank unless I want to?
<Correct>
What I struggle with is what is the point of disinfecting it if really
omnipresent and essentially will be added again at some point. Would uv
sterilization and ozone be of benefit here?
<Yes; higher DO, ORP do reduce TBC....>
Seems like safe reef keeping with hands out of the tank and gloves is all that
is needed. Do you agree?
<Indeed I do. B>
Re: Mycobacterial Infection
5/8/19
Is running ozone and oversized uv overkill? Is one more effective than the
other?
<... too much O3 can be dangerous. Again; my advice; reading... On WWM,
elsewhere. B>
Re: Mycobacterial Infection
5/8/19
Thanks Bob. Is there also anyway to figure out where I got this from. By that I
mean I also have a QT tank with fish in it. I guess it's just as likely that I
scratched my hand in my main display and the cut got infected in the QT tank. If
the fish in the QT tank are asymptomatic do you think it's reasonable to move
them into the display tank.
<? How would I know Eric....? Folks, aquarists do get such growths,
infections... freshwater, marine, fisher-folks as well.
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/woundbactf.htm>
Re: Mycobacterial Infection 5/14/19
Bob,
Just wanted to let you know. Diagnosed was confirmed via biopsy results.
Definitely a Mycobacterial infection.
<Again; not uncommon, and not often trouble. Bob Fenner>
Re: Mycobacterial Infection 5/14/19
Bob,
<Eric>
Right now I am running a Pentair 120watt uv sterilizer inline. Would adding an
ozone unit be of any benefit?
<What's your ORP run? IF the UV et al. set up, maintenance... are yielding a
rather high/steady RedOx state (300-400 usiemens/cu...) I wouldn't>
I haven't been able to find much as to which is better or more effective against
bacteria. I know uv's are
certainly safer.
<Mmm; I think I've recently stated this... the better part of UV use is their O3
generation. Bob Fenner>
Re: Mycobacterial Infection 6/22/19
Bob,
<Eric>
Wanted you to have these pictures as I think they are great for
educational purposes. Been on antibiotics for 30 days and the M. marinum
has cleared up pretty good.
<Yes; the emargination... looks good>
2 more months to go. Just an fyi all my sea life creatures are still
doing okay as long as they dont jump out of the tank.
<Thank you for sharing. Bob Fenner>
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Reef Tank Causing Respiratory Distress; Zoanthids...
1/28/16
Greetings,
<Hola, Earl here.>
A little back-story: My 130 gal reef was broken down into a temporary setup for
3 months due to a silicone defect while the new aquarium was built. Without
proper filtration dinoflagellates took root, smothered and killed most of the
corals, but the fish/inverts seem OK and 4 days ago I transferred the
inhabitants and rock to the new 240 gal system.
<OK Sarah I am sure Bob and some others will have more to say on this but I
wanted to give you an immediate heads-up because this is potentially as serious
as a heart attack, literally. Look up palytoxins. It is very likely you have
"Palys", button polyps, Zoanthids (zoos), such similar in your tank, no? Stress
or physical damage or attempts to remove them/kill them
can cause them to release a very dangerous neurotoxin specific to these animals.
This needs to be taken extremely seriously...I have heard incredulity from
people on the seriousness of this but please know it is definitely something
that needs to be dealt with asap, with a cool head.
The symptoms you describe are classic.
http://www.asanltr.com/newsletter/02-2/articles/Neurotoxins.htm has
some good and detailed info. Also check the faq's on WWM regarding this. I have
some friends in my reef club who had a very similar occurrence which included
hospitalization for 2 of the family. It particularly attacks the respiratory
system. The CDC says:
http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm6431a4.htm. The first
well-reported hobby-related instance commonly known
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/blog/personal-experiences-with-palytoxin-poisoning-almost-killed-myself-wife-and-dogs
>
The last few days my husband comes home from work and develops an immediate
runny nose and if either of us work on the tank our sinuses burn, develop slight
chest discomfort, irritability, clouded thinking, watery eyes and sore throat.
We noticed a correlation between our symptoms and working in or near the system
and have ruled out possible irritants in the house. The aquarium is plumbed into
the basement and we notice the worst effects while in the sump room - last night
we set up the skimmer and carbon in a reactor and were quite uncomfortable
after.
If it were hydrogen sulfide, I'd expect to have disturbed a sand bed, which I
have not.
If it were palytoxin, I'd expect to be severe.
<Please see above. See a doctor quickly for some alleviation and have some of
this printed out as it's unlikely to be known to most physicians.
Remember Rule 1: Don't Panic but do decontaminate (nuke with bleach) possibly
contaminated gear, etc.. And please follow up your email here with updates as a
follow-up as to how things go.>
There's about 10 heads of Zoas in the reef total, although, they are not open.
If it were toxins from the Dinoflagellates, I would expect my CUC to die off -
in fact, it's the opposite, the urchin has recently started eating it.
Please chime in, the unknown is making us uneasy.
Sincerely,
Sarah
Re: Reef Tank Causing Respiratory Distress
1/28/16
Thanks for the prompt response, I'm familiar with palytoxin and it's why I've
never been a Zoa gardener, but there are about 10 heads of stressed Zoas in the
tank, stressed from the dino outbreak I presume.
I think I'm going to cut the large stylo colony off and whip that Zoa rock in
the snow.
<Will share this w/ Earl, but want to respond as well. Yes to (carefully)
removing the rock/Zoanthids to elsewhere. I would also run a good deal (pounds)
of GAC (carbon) and maybe PolyFilter in the system); do a few consecutive daily
water changes (to dilute)>
The tank transfer was 4 days ago and for the past 2 we've noticed the symptoms.
Didn't boil rock, or leave it out of the water for more than a minute or so. I
also wonder if disturbing the dinoflagellates released some kind of toxin. While
our symptoms are present, they aren't severe.
Sarah
<See, read on WWM re others archived accounts. Trouble. Bob Fenner>
Re: Reef Tank Causing Respiratory Distress. Zoanthids
2/23/16
Thanks for the prompt response, I'm familiar with palytoxin and it's why I've
never been a Zoa gardener, but there are about 10 heads of stressed Zoas in the
tank, stressed from the dino outbreak I presume.
I think I'm going to cut the large stylo colony off and whip that Zoa rock in
the snow.
The tank transfer was 4 days ago and for the past 2 we've noticed the symptoms.
Didn't boil rock, or leave it out of the water for more than a minute or so. I
also wonder if disturbing the dinoflagellates released some kind of toxin.
<Not likely discernible by humans>
While our symptoms are present, they aren't severe.
Sarah
<I'd be reading (on WWM, elsewhere) re Zoanthid toxic effects, removing
these animals (the whole rock they're on);
running GAC and more... NOW.... READ here:
http://wetwebmedia.com/zoanthidcompfaqs.htm
and the linked files in the series (above). Bob Fenner>
Re: Reef Tank Causing Respiratory Distress; Zoas 2/24/16
Thank you for the add'l info, I truly appreciate our correspondence.
<VERY glad to help>
After running 2 lbs of carbon, PolyFilters & w/c's we no longer experience
symptoms
<Thank goodness>
near the reef tank and then what seemed like a secondary cold set in for both of
us - 3 weeks of moderate to severe
sore throat, chest congestion and runny nose. All has returned to normal and
I'll share this info with the locals.
Thanks again,
Sarah
<Thank you for your report. Bob Fenner>
Very Worried...Small Granuloma(looking)On Left Finger
8/10/14
Greetings Crew, I'm a little concerned about 3 days ago a small red patch showed
on my left pointer finger, below second knuckle. Initially it filled with very
little pus(sorry for details here) and ruptured in 24hrs. It now looks like a
red scaly patch about a 1/4in. No pain, although it is draining ever so
slightly.
Coincidently, I had been researching wound management on WetWebMedia a few weeks
ago and came across articles on Mycobacteria. Seeing the similarities, I
immediately made appointment with my doctor. I made appointment for possible
mycobac. infection. My doctor looked at my sore and said it is so small, barely
looks infected and with very little drainage to culture,
don't worry unless it gets worse. I informed her I'm a at risk group. I'm a part
time fish breeder(47 aquariums and 6 aqua. res.(8000g), part time open ocean
kayak guide, very part time scuba instruct.etc., with lots of freshwater and
saltwater contact. I occasionally receive fish from large fish farms in Asia and
local pet stores(even more questionable in my area IMO). After a lot of
convincing she decided to put me on antibiotics. At this point she hasn't
researched Mycobac. mar. I happened to noticed on her sheet, she has spelt
Mycobacteria, microbacteria. I ask if she can research Mycobac. mar please, so I
can get on the right antibiotics. She responds. I'm not going to research
something I haven't cultured.
<?... RMF>
I respond by saying, I heard this doesn't culture well and may take 4 weeks. She
admits she has never heard of Mycobac. mar. and does research,( right in front
of me). So I end up leaving with a combination antibiotics specifically geared
toward Myco. mar. To be honest, now that I'm home, I'm having second thoughts on
taking meds.
This thing is so small, I feel good, no swelling, no swollen lymps., I hate to
take a combination of antibiotics, if I don't have to. I have a follow up appt.
with my doctor in 3 days. She did attempt to culture sore. If it weren't for my
insistence, I wouldn't have left with antibiotics. I'm not looking for medical
advise in anyway, but perhaps if anyone has had similar experience, please chime
in. Everything I've found online shows much more advanced cases, but they look
similar. Thanks for any help if possible.
Aloha Brandon
<Hello Brandon. This is absolutely (probably legally) something we cannot advise
on, and doing so would surely be a bad thing to do. Mycobacterium infections
(also known as Mycobacteriosis) from fish rarely cause long term problems for
humans, but occasionally they do cause health issues beyond the skin rash, very
rarely serious/fatal ones if the person is immunocompromised. Talk with your
doctor, and if necessary, they'll recommend treatment or further tests. You are
right to consider the possibility of Mycobacteria infections coming from
aquaria, but at the same time, such infections are very rare, and without
microscopic analysis of the infected tissue, you cannot diagnose them anyway.
All sorts of bacteria can get into scratches on the skin, and once there, spark
an opportunistic infection of some kind. As aquarists we often fixate on the
notorious disease we call "Fish TB" because of its scary name, but in practise
there are all sorts of possible bacterial infections you can get from fish tanks
(as well as herptile vivaria) including such favourites as Salmonella infections
(which cause stomach upsets). And while Mycobacterium fortuitum and
Mycobacterium marinum, among others, have been reported from aquaria, there
aren't any quick treatments, a notorious problem with Mycobacterium spp
generally. Antibiotics such as Minocycline and Rifampin are used across multiple
months. Your general practitioner should be able to give you much
more depth on this, and if he/she can't, then discussions with an expert on
zoonotic infections would be helpful. Cheers, Neale ("the wrong sort of Dr to be
helpful here!").> Important Question: Concern with autoinfection from hands in tanks
6/23/14
emailing you today because I have some concerns. I have no
experience with saltwater or freshwater aquariums but have recently
secured
a position at a leading retail store selling many tropical fish, live
rock,
corals, venomous fish and so on. I was unaware of some of the dangers
upon
taking the position.
<Mmm>
This is where the situation is unique. I know that I have no reason to
panic, but instead to use caution and arm myself with knowledge so I can
take steps to prevent accidents while cleaning the tanks etc but I have
a
nail-biting disorder. It's called Onychophagia. Most people find this
revolting and something that you should just stop doing. But I simply
can't. It is an obsessive compulsive behaviour that I have very, very
little control over.
<Well; then I would definitely get/use gloves if you're going to have
your
hands in the water. More important and likely than trouble from
livestock
itself; all biological waters, including aquariums, have large mixes of
microbial life... some of which you don't want to ingest. Akin to
Coliform
bacteria, Enterobius worms... from autoinfection, you want to thoroughly
wash your hands after having them in the tanks>
I'm aware while at work to be washing and rinsing thoroughly and often
but
what I'm really worried about is the open wounds around my fingernails.
<You should be. I take it you're seen here on WWM:
http://wetwebmedia.com/Wound.htm
the linked files above>
If I am to clean 4-8 30gallon tanks per day, amongst other tasks
(handling
and cleaning protein filters etc) am I especially at risk for
contracting
diseases?
<To some extent, yes... again, the elbow length gloves are the route I
would go>
My worry is that when dealing with things that are microscopic, I can't
be
sure that I have cleaned my hands thoroughly enough and I can't stop
myself
from biting once I'm done work.
Should I be anxious about this?
<Yes>
I feel anxious. I would rather be safe and broke than have money and be
sick. Thank you so much!! I look forward to hearing your answer.
<I had "the habit" of biting my nails and cuticles when I was younger...
and sis still does. I would seek out the help of a dermatologist and
their
aid in turn in "conditioning" help to rid you of this compulsion.
Bob
Fenner>
Vibrio vulnificus and palytoxin. Warning, and question re
possible acuity interaction 5/5/13
Hi all. in last 4 months i had several problems with palytoxin ( 2 times
ended up to ER), all times by contact with intact skin (hands,
forearms)First time i removed the most recent Palythoa colony from
the tank, then sent it to a lab , resulting in strong presence of
palytoxin and Vibrio vulnificus.
<Aye ya!>
After 2 months, as soon as i clean my tank i felt very bad and went to
ER again with severe symptoms including chills, muscle and joint
pains, very low pressure and high level of CPK (rhabdomyolysis), all
symptoms that confirm palytoxin poisoning.
<Yes>
So i removed the old Palythoa colony (in 10 years they never gave me a
problem , even while fragmenting, brushing, dipping in h2o2 for zoapox),
sent it to the lab and resulting venomous as well and infected by Vibrio
vulnificus. My questions are:- maybe this Vibrio turned my normal Palys
in a killer ones?
<Mmm, don't know>
- after removing all Palys, is there a risk that other kind of corals
become venomous?
<Also; but I strongly doubt it/this>
- how can i remove Vibrio vulnificus from the tank? (high salinity?
h202?
competing bacteria? Lourdes water?)Thanks and sorry for my bad English,
I'm Italian. Manuel Ricci
<... I'd keep my bare hands out (wear arm length gloves, use tools) and
use ozone to raise, sustain ORP; keep gravel vacuuming, changing good
volumes of water weekly (25% or so). Bob Fenner>
Septicemia on my yellow tangs
7/24/12
Sorry for bothering you, since I know you are so busy maintaining such
an excellent database of marine aquarium knowledge, but I seem to be
having quite a problem with my saltwater tank. A while back I asked a
question regarding my ocellaris clownfish and my Koran angelfish.
Unfortunately, while I had them in quarantine, we lost power for a few
days. The only survivors were the ocellaris clownfish pair. Since then,
my tank has been doing quite well, and I've added some fish (after a
lengthy 6 week quarantine, in which everything received 2 doses of
Prazi-pro at full strength as well as Cupramine at half strength). The
problem is that just recently (after being in the display over 2 months)
both
<Two; my emphasis here>
of my yellow tangs began to show red blotches on their bodies (one much
worse than the other). At first it was only in the dorsal fins, but now
it has spread to the caudal peduncle of the slightly smaller specimen
(who is boss over all the tangs in the tank). My
tank is a 187 gallon (60"x24"x30") which I hope to be converting into a
reef. Here are my levels:
pH: 8.3
Salinity: 1.025
Ammonia: undetectable
Nitrite: Undetectable
Nitrate: between 0 and 5 (working on lowering this)
Phosphate: 0.005 (working on lowering this as well)
<Not to worry; this is low enough>
I run a G200 protein skimmer (which I skim more on the wet side), as
well as having a 55 gallon refugium, and performing weekly 20% water
changes.
Current fish include:
2 Yellow Tangs (which have gotten along great since I got them,
even sleeping in the same cave at night)
<As far as you've seen>
1 Sailfin Tang (who schools with the yellows during the day)
1 Bariene Tang (who is the smallest tang currently, but growing fast)
1 High Hat Drum (love this fish; he's hardy, is growing fast, eats
everything, and cleans the sandbed)
1 Papuan Toby (who hasn't nipped any fins yet, got him for free from a
friend)
1 Melanurus Wrasse (A fully grown male, quite spectacular)
1 Bluehead Wrasse (awesome fish, but destroyed the hermit crabs)
1 Arc Eye Hawkfish (same as above)
1 Sleeper Banded Goby (Amblygobius phalaena) (he keeps my sand perfect
and made a burrow right up front in the tank)
2 Ocellaris clowns (a breeding pair)
1 Blue devil damsel (who is the smallest fish in the tank)
2 Yellow tailed blue damsels (who paired off pretty early on)
The fish are fed 2 times a day (Mysid shrimp, and marine cuisine in the
morning; Nori and Prime reef at night). All fish (including the two
yellow tangs) act normal and eat greedily (all of them have the fish
equivalent of a beer gut). I just can't figure out why the red won't go
away on the yellow tangs.
<"Something/s stressful"... not likely water quality given the readings
you present, the gear you have, the other livestock kept... more likely
"something" in the cave they share (e.g. Bristleworm) or themselves
interacting... I'd separate the two, only keep one in this system>
Occasionally it seems to be getting better, only to look worse the next
time I look at them. I am currently performing a 20% water change, and I
will be grabbing some Maracyn 2 in the morning (in case the tangs get
worse and I need to move them to quarantine to treat them). Do you have
any other suggestions for me? Are there any medicines that would work
better than Maracyn 2?
<No medicine/s called for, advised>
Thanks in advance and keep up the good work,
Ashton
<For review, please peruse the Z. flavescens hlth/dis. FAQs:
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ytangdisf6.htm
and the linked files above. Bob Fenner>
Re: Septicemia on my yellow tangs 7/24/12
Dear Bob,
Thank you for answering my question, but I'm still stumped. The 2 yellow
tangs show no aggression at all between them, and had lived together in
a 75 gallon for about 3 years before I bought them. I actually teach
piano and the tank is next to the piano, so I am able to watch them for
most of the day and never see aggression.
<Might not be aggression per se, but just stressful to be in company...
in the wild this species lives individually or in dozens to a hundred or
so individuals in a moving shoal>
If I do notice aggression I can move all the cichlids out of their 180
gallon tank and turn it into a tang/trigger/puffer/grouper FOWLR. As for
the 2 yellow tangs being bothered by a Bristleworm, I do not think that
is the case. Right before I added the two yellow tangs to the display I
came downstairs at 1:00 in the morning to discover my seagrass filefish
(Acreichthys tomentosus) being devoured by a 2 foot worm.
<Yeeikes!>
I ended up dismantling the entire display and found the worm hiding in
my sandbed. Upon searching Google I found out exactly what it was: a
bobbit worm. I was paranoid about having any others like it in my system
and I treated the display with Cupramine. Could the septicemia be the
result of copper leaching from my live rock?
<Yes; could be a factor>
I know tangs do not like long term exposure to copper. If there is
residual copper should I just continue to run the skimmer, bump water
changes to twice weekly, and add a Polyfilter pad (the ones designed to
absorb copper and other chemicals)?
<Yes>
I could also run some activated carbon. I ended up buying some Triple
Sulfa at the LFS this morning, because they recommended it over the
Maracyn 2.
<Please don't apply this... Of no use, and may foul up the bio-make up
microbially and hence to all>
If the tangs get worse (they look somewhat better after last night's water
change), should I put them in quarantine (divided from each other since
the quarantine is a 30 gallon) and treat them?
<No to treatment>
By the way, I spent about 4 hours going through every FAQ page on WWM
about yellow tangs. It was quite the interesting read.
<Ah yes... one of the top dozen or so marine species in terms of
popularity>
On a somewhat unrelated note, hopefully in about a month I will be
moving this tank to a different part of the house and building it into
the wall.
In the process I will be upgrading to a 125 gallon refugium behind the
wall with much better access than the 55 gallon refugium under the tank.
<I'd bet you're looking forward to this change and that it will improve
all's experience.>
Thanks again,
Ashton
<Welcome, and thank you for this follow-up. Bob Fenner>
Re: Septicemia on my yellow tangs 7/28/12
Dear Bob,
I'm sorry to bug you, but things are getting worse for my tank.
<I see this in your tank... and more... in your pix. A very likely
source of the trouble; the "something toxic" in your system>
I just added 2 more powerheads to the tank for increased circulation
(which made all the fish much more active), as well as taking the lights
off all of my freshwater tanks and putting them over this tank (which
also made the fish more active and much brighter colored). All my water
readings are exactly the same as they were in the first email, but the
two yellow tangs still have septicemia (although they are slightly
better than before). I added Cuprisorb to the tank, and it has had
absolutely no color change, so I guess I have no copper left in the
system. I also added 25 Astraea snails and they seem to be thriving (as
long as they stay tight to the wall during the day, the puffer and the
wrasses like harassing them).
However last night my high hat drum died for no apparent reason,
although he seemed rather listless last night (just kind of floating
around instead of his normal behavior of swimming back and forth begging
for food when I'm by the tank). That was a real disappointment to me as
he was one of my favorite fish, and he was thriving and eating like a
champ mere hours beforehand. My Bariene tang also seems to be having a
problem.
<Yes>
When I first purchased him, I had him in quarantine and he came down
with Ich within 48 hours. I proceeded to treat him with Cupramine for
the remainder of his time in quarantine (6 weeks), and he quickly
recovered (no symptoms after the first week of treatment). However, he
did glance at the decorations in quarantine and he gave himself a small
circular wound (which I thought was just a bruise). Today, it seems that
it wasn't just a bruise.
It is a perfect circle on his body, about a half inch across. It is
lighter in color than the rest of his body, and has something white
hanging out of it. All of the other fish seem fine, but I really am sick
of having my fish die on me, and I've gone through over 90 dollars of
salt in the past 2 weeks...
I've taken the liberty of attaching some pictures.
Thanks again,
Ashton Nietzke
<The mauve red on your rock... looks to be BGA, Cyanobacteria... is
poisoning your fishes. Please read here re:
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/bluegralgae.htm
and the linked files above... You need to react, soon... and I might
even go ahead and use the antibiotic route of chemical control here
(it's that much of an emergency)... in the long/er haul, doing what you
can/will to promote other algal types...
Bob Fenner>
|
crop |
Re: Septicemia on my yellow tangs 7/28/12
Dear Bob,
I guess I will go ahead and treat the tank with Chemiclean then
<Or any source of Erythromycin... WITH your close observations... ready to
change water and more... should the system disimprove quickly from the BGA
crashing>
(I just happen to have an almost brand new bottle a friend gave me when he
gave up on saltwater). Is there anything else I can do?
<... move out the LR, or move the fishes elsewhere>
When I treated the display with Cupramine, all of my Chaetomorpha in the
refugium died. I tried to go buy some mixed macro (Chaeto, Gracilaria and
Caulerpa) yesterday, but both of the nearby stores were out of all types of
macroalgae. I used to grow C. prolifera in the display but it was at the
point where my tank looked like a seagrass bed (which the filefish loved).
<MUCH better than the BGA>
I took it out because I read about all the instances of Caulerpa going
"sexual" and poisoning tanks online. The Astraea snails seem to like eating
it though, should I try adding some more snails?
<I wouldn't, no... you have too many already as far as I'm concerned. See
WWM re scavengers as such>
As for the Bariene tang, do you think it is just an injury healing itself
(he seems to be scraping it on the bottom and the rocks), or is it a
parasite or disease of some sort.
Thanks again,
Ashton Nietzke
<Welcome. Bob Fenner>
Re: Septicemia on my yellow tangs 7/30/12
Dear Bob,
I thought I'd give you an update, no matter how unpleasant it may be. The
erythromycin ended up making the algae grow much faster than before rather
than killing it.
<Mmm>
It now covers the bottom of the tank and all the sides. I think it is
actually a Dinoflagellate and not Cyanobacteria.
<Do you have a microscope? Take a look at a sample... easily distinguished>
I ended up getting a ball of Caulerpa racemosa and Caulerpa taxifola, and
that is currently in my refugium.
<Okay>
When I went to the LFS to get the Caulerpa, I told them what was wrong
with the tank and they ended up selling me 2 sea urchins, a Halloween urchin
and a red spined blue tuxedo urchin (both of whom love Nori). They, along
with the 25 snails I already had, seem to be eating the Dinoflagellates, but
after reading about Dinoflagellates poisoning the animals that eat them, I
feel as if I should remove all the animals and put them in a different
system, and turning off all of the lights on the display for a few weeks. I
am pretty sure that I will divide the animals between my 30 gallon
quarantine (I feel as if the Zebrasoma will pick on the smaller bariene in
the 75 gallon) and my 75 gallon tank that currently has fancy goldfish in it
(I will move the goldfish to a kiddy-pool, change out all the freshwater for
saltwater, and add some bio-Spira for saltwater).
All of the invertebrates will go into the 75 gallon, since the larger water
volume should hopefully be more stable, and that tank hasn't been treated
with copper.
By the way, the bariene tang (which grazes this algae stuff more than the
others) looks the worst, and continues to get worse. The yellow tangs, both
of which eat it occasionally have septicemia still (and one is worse than
the other). The sailfin tang (which doesn't touch it at all), seems to be
having no problem, much like all of the other fish (which do not eat it
either). I plan on running over to the store in the morning and buying a 200
gallon box of instant ocean salt.
Is there anything else I can do?
<I'd add a great deal more small substrate to the refugium and/or
main/display tank, AND look into what your RedOx is... raise it w/ ozone
addition. This is, as the saying goes, WAR>
Thanks again for putting up with all my emails,
Ashton Nietzke
<Welcome. BobF>
Re: Septicemia on my yellow tangs
8/2/12
Dear Bob,
<Ashton>
I thought I'd give you a follow up on the algae problem. Two
nights ago I removed all of the animals in the tank and moved them into
quarantine.
Unfortunately, the bariene tang died that night. As for the
other fish, all of them seem 100% better, including the two yellow tangs
which have no more red on them at all.
<Ahh, good>
The tank is currently sitting in the dark with the lights off and is
covered with a black tarp. I also raised the pH to 8.5 and began running
a pound of activated carbon in the sump based on recommendations from
the LFS and others online who have dealt with Dinoflagellate problems. I
will say that after moving the fish, snails, and urchins (and having my
arms in the water for quite some time afterwards scrubbing the
walls and rocks) that I got quite the headache and felt quite sick to my
stomach.
<Mmm, me no like>
Luckily, the queasy feeling and the headache have just about gone away
now.
Needless to say, I will be investing in a pair of arm length rubber
gloves after this incident.
<Good>
Thanks for putting up with my emails,
Ashton Nietzke
<Thanks for this update. B>
|
flat worms, human contact/hlth. 10/10/11
Hi,
<Hello>
I have a question about flat worms. My tank has a minor infestation of
these critters (probably Waminoa sp.). I was thinking about siphoning
them off based on what I've read online, but I'm not crazy
about the idea of potentially touching these things with my hands or
skin (or anything else in my tank for that matter).
<Not to worry... If squeamish wear gloves>
My question is are these creatures harmful to humans?
<As far as I'm aware, no>
This is not a medical question, but just wanted to know if I should be
aware of any risks they may pose to people so that I can take
precautions.
If you have any information that might help that would be much
appreciated!
<Though unpalatable to many/most potential marine predators,
Flatworms are not toxic to human touch>
Thanks so much!
<Welcome. Bob Fenner>
personal illness. Possible/probable contact issue w/
Zoas 3/21/11
Hi Bob. My name is John. I came down with an illness around December
2009. This is the same time I bought an established reef tank. The
setup was mostly softies. Some Zoanthids, Devils hand, Kenya Tree and
so forth. I added some fish and a Squamosa Clam but that as about it.
Around that time, I started experiencing serious exhaustion. I lost
interest in everything to the point where it was hard to brush my
teeth. ( I still did).
<Appreciate your timing, sense of humour>
It just took every ounce of energy to do the most mundane task. I lost
30 pounds ( I am also a serious weight lifter which I stopped because I
would fall asleep in the parking lot of the YMCA), Couldn't get out
of bed when I needed to and was really suffering. I still loved the
hobby and never gave up on learning and maintenance.
<Yeeikes!>
Obviously, I had to seek help. I had every test ran that could be ran
and found nothing. Doctors said I was depressed (not). They said all
tests are normal and it has to be Depression. I was happy when the
whole thing started. For gods sake, I just discovered the hobby of my
dreams. I was so excited about reef keeping. I stayed up late to do
maintenance, study and just admire. I got a burst of energy at night,
so I could at least take care of my system.
After around 9 months of this I went to a holistic doctor (Bodylogic
MD). After testing me they diagnosed with Adrenal Fatigue. He
prescribed me with several different supplements to boost endo
functions, vitamin D deficiency and a few others, and I started feeling
better. I am about 8 months into treatment and I am feeling much
better. I got my weight back and
I can get out of bed easier. I still have bad days but nothing like
before.
My system has moved along quite a bit. I've added SPS, LPS, better
lighting (clam needed it) Upgraded tank size and filtration. I love
corals to the point where I bought Anthony Calfo's book on coral
propagation What a great job AC) and I am seriously considering (beyond
the shadow of a doubt) building a green house to propagate corals. I
have become obsessed with the hobby to the point where I don't have
a choice but to proceed forward in my efforts.
Have you ever heard of anything like this?
<Yes; unfortunately. Some folks are much more malaffected than
others, but the Zoanthidea in particular "can" have these
effects>
I never really thought the tank had anything to do with it until the
other day. I came home from work and when I checked on my tank I
noticed a strong coral smell in my tank room. I had lost 2 small
colonies of Pulsing Xenia. I scraped what was left off of the glass to
dispose of them. I did a 20% water change. I also removed all of the
Macro algae from my refugium( per AJ's advice on coral tanks). The
next morning was rough. Not nearly as bad as the worst days but rough
none the less.
<DO wear gloves that cover your hands, arms completely when
you're in your tank/s>
One more bit of info and I'll let you go. I have always been an
early riser. I get up at 5-5:30, go to the gym. I return home to feed
my 12 year old (Playing for first place in nation in hockey in San Jose
at the end of march)(so proud) and drive him to school. I then go to
work for 10-12 hours.
This has been my routine for years without a problem. until about the
last 4-5 months, I had to cut the gym out and use an alarm clock just
to get up before 9-10.
Have you ever heard of anything like this? I would truly appreciate any
Ideas..
<Do have a read here: http://wetwebmedia.com/woundcontactf.htm
re Zoanthids/human contact
and here: http://wetwebmedia.com/zoanthidcompfaqs.htm
and the linked files above. I would seek out specialised medical
help.
Dermatologists, endocrinologists w/ backgrounds in tropical,
aquatic-derived illnesses. Bob Fenner>
Re: personal illness 3/21/11
I do not where <wear> gloves. I am in the process of finding
gloves like you described.
<They are available... to consumers and through mail-order houses
for special purposes. If you're lucky the Playtex Extra Large may
fit you>
Thank you for the info and knowledge. It's always appreciated. I
will let you know what I find out. Hope you enjoy Aquarama.
<Thank you John. I do so hope your travails w/ this exposure issue
will be solved soon. BobF>
Coral/flatworm Toxin Dangers to Humans?
2/15/11
Hello there!
<Hi Ashley>
I'm hoping that you can help me with a mystery. I have a 58 gallon
tank, plus sump that I bought several weeks ago "established"
with beautiful Tampa Bay Saltwater premium live rock teeming with
hitchhikers. There are also a couple of urchins, pulsating xenia, a
small green leather (looks like green Sinularia?), green star polyps, a
tiny tube coral, lots of snails, brittles, worms, clams, orange frilly
limpet, and many other little anemones and critters. I know that I only
saw a snapshot of what is really lurking in there. I had already
captured a large speckled Polyclad flatworm (like the top image on your
page *FAQs about Giant Clam Disease, Pests & Predators**1)
*during setup and there were a couple of other small types of
flatworms, but the population wasn't huge. I opted to treat with
Flatworm Exit before adding fish, just to reduce any risks. I used a
"normal" dose.
<Mmm...>
I put my hands in the tank to begin to siphon out some of the dying
floating worms - only to abandon the idea because there wasn't much
to siphon.
Unfortunately, I instantly began to feel a funny feeling on my hands
where they were in the tank, and began to feel my heart rate increase
at such a rapid rate that I was on the phone with 911 in less than a
minute. My blood pressure had also increased significantly. Fortunately
little intervention was required and I was sent home later that
afternoon with an achy chest and nausea. I've since had some
lingering effects requiring more care, but am working through those.
No, no gloves were used unfortunately.
<Yes>
I do understand that it would be nearly impossible to figure out what
it was that affected me so, but is it feasible that a toxin released
after a dewormer treatment could affect an individual so severely?
<Affirmative. Please put the string: flatworm human toxicity in your
search tool/s>
Is it that I'm incredibly sensitive?
<Likely there is a range>
By the way, everything else survived fine (even a few flatworms). The
green finger leather looking coral was very slumped, but recovered
great.
<Good>
Unfortunately I've decided to sell this tank, but will replace it
with a fresh new Nano tank where I can choose EVERYTHING that goes in
rather than chancing it with very healthy live rock!
Thanks for your help!
Ashley
<Welcome, and thank you for sharing. Bob Fenner>
Salmonella Poisoning From Frogs 12/2/2010
My little boy (age 10) just spent 4 days in the hospital with
Salmonella poisoning. I am worried he contracted this from his frogs
(White's Dumpy and Cuban). We tried to be diligent about him
washing his hands. Since he is 10, I think he may have slipped a few
times with the handwashing or perhaps didn't wash well enough.
My question is can you get Salmonella again, or is he now immune? Also,
is there anyway to treat the frogs for Salmonella so they don't
continue to shed it in their feces?
He really likes the frogs, but I don't want to go through this
again. If there is any chance he can get it again, we will be seeking
new homes for our little buddies.
Thanks, Julie Southern Illinois
< Your son can continue to get salmonella over and over again if he
doesn't wash his hands carefully after handing his frogs. I
don't think there is anyway to treat the frogs. You may want to
check with a vet. I understand your concern. People should wash their
hands after handling all pets. There are parasites/diseases that be
transmitted to humans from dogs and cats too. I am sorry your son and
your family had to go through this but I am glad he has
recovered.-Chuck>
*******PLEASE HELP !!!!!!!FIREBELLY TOAD EYE
INFECTION******** 11/19/10
Hello
I was reading your study you conducted regarding fire belly
toads, and I have a Question for you I was hoping you could
answer. My son had a fire belly toad as a pet he received it from
a friend and soon after he got the toad he experienced a really
bad eye infection. I read on other sights of the internet that
the toad itself can experience a cloudy like infection over their
eyes . This is the same reaction my son had...Is it possible that
he caught whatever infection he has from the Toad?... The
optomologist seems to think it is a herpes virus but I do not
agree... the meds they gave him did not work as expected and his
eye is starting to get the fogginess back and I think the doctors
are dumbfounded and do not know how to treat this infection
properly.... Can you please give me some insight on this ? I
would really appreciate it if you can give me any idea if my sons
symptoms is something that you came across in your
research'¦
Sincerely Michelle Spatz
<It is extremely unlikely that a toad would pass on a viral
infection. However, toads also secrete toxins through their skins
to defend themselves from predators, and if carried from hand to
eye, such toxins could very easily cause irritation, inflammation
or weeping. Furthermore, the warm, humid conditions in an
aquarium or vivarium can culture bacteria such as Salmonella, and
if basic hygiene practises are not followed, e.g., washing hands
after cleaning the tank, it is certainly possible for aquarists
to catch bacterial infections. Children are notoriously bad at
cleaning their hands after handling animals, and it is also
crucial to understand that a dirty, overcrowded aquarium with
overfed animals and under-filtered water is MUCH more likely to
culture dangerous bacteria than a spacious, clean, properly
filtered aquarium stocked at a low density. Generally zoonotic
infections (as they're called) are very minor and clear up by
themselves. Most people with a healthy diet and a normal immune
system will not be at any risk at all, and won't show any
signs of infection; in fact I think my immune system is quite
strong precisely because I've swallowed gallons of aquarium
water over the years! But individuals with a poor diet or weak
immune system can contract serious infections this way, and such
zoonoses are something to consider in such situations. Note that
zoonoses are not restricted to fish or frogs, and any pet, farm
or wild animal can pose a health risk to individuals with
weakened or compromised immune systems. We are not medical
doctors and cannot offer you any medical advice at all, morally
or legally. Consult with your own medical doctors and health
practitioners and act accordingly. One last thing, as/when you
write back, please don't send 6 MB photos! They really gum up
our e-mail system. Use iPhoto or whatever to resize the images
down to, say, 640x480 pixels, or less than 500 KB. We do
specifically ask for that at the place where you found our e-mail
address, and sticking to our few minor rules is one of the things
you can do to make it easier for us to help you. Cheers,
Neale.>
|
|
The Dangers of Live Rock 10/25/10
Hello WWM Crew,
<Hello Robin>
One of the first things I did years ago upon setting up my reef
tank was check out your awesome site. Human curiosity being what
it is, I was particularly intrigued by the sections of the site
that covered injuries, illness and other sorts of damage a reef
tank and its critters can inflict.
Now I'm back to share.
A few days ago my Jawfish's burrow collapsed. He was unable
to re-excavate it due to pebbles and shells getting wedged in to
the point where he couldn't dislodge them. He also didn't
seem interested in moving house and in general just looked
unhappy and distressed. So last night I decided to lend a hand
and clear out the rubble. As it turns out I ended up giving him
my arm.
After having bristle worm bristles embedded in my fingers more
times than I care to admit, I had put on wrist length latex
gloves before undertaking this task. During the dig out process
my forearm kept making contact with an apparently uninhabited
portion of the live rock. After the job was complete and the
Jawfish was happy again, I washed up, had a beer and called it a
night.
<I like the beer part.>
I woke up in the middle of the night with my arm itching worse
than if I'd been bitten by a squadron of mosquitoes. I turned
on the light to find these big, red, itchy welts covering my arm.
The photo doesn't do the owie justice.
I'd experienced this one other time though on a much smaller
scale. At the time I thought that I may have accidentally brushed
up against my bubble tip anemone. This time the anemone was no
where near by, nor were there any corals etc. on the piece of
rock in question. Any idea what could have caused this?
<Mmm, could be most anything and depends heavily on your
body's sensitivity
to toxic compounds. There are folks who could die from a bee
sting.>
Aside from being uncomfortable, it's nothing a little
Benadryl and hydrocortisone can't handle, so I consider
myself lucky. Still, I thought I'd share to spare others from
learning this lesson the hard way, and let you know that those
arm length aquarium gloves are now on my shopping list.
<Is always a good idea to wear gloves when cleaning and or
handling invertebrates, especially Zoanthids whose palytoxins are
known to get some folks quite ill.
Thank you for sharing, Robin. James (Salty Dog)>
Robin
|
RMF suggests a call to your doctor,
dermatologist... the application of as high a percentage of
corticosteroid cream (possibly shots) as they suggest.
|
Fish I encounter snorkeling 9/25/10
I live in the Philippines and go snorkeling often. The fish seem to
ignore me and often schools will swim let me swim in the middle of
them.
<Neat>
One species, the boxfish or cowfish really seems
attracted to me and nibble my fingers.
<Interesting... is this after having a shrimp dinner?
Heeeee!>
I've actually been able to catch them with my bare hands, but then
let them go of course. My question is whether or not this might be
dangerous (the nibbling part). I understand they can be toxic to other
fish, but can a small boxfish do any damage to me.
<Not to worry; not dangerous>
I wish I could show you all of the different species I see because I
can't identify them. My digital camera is crap in the water. Thanks
for all of
your
information
Best regards,
Gerald Stone
<And you, Bob Fenner>
Upper Respiratory Issues When Cleaning Our Reef Aquarium
1/14/10
<Hello Wayne>
After thoroughly searching the Internet as well as discussing this with
my local shop owner as well as one of his aquarium cleaning staff I now
turn to you. My 50 gallon saltwater reef aquarium for the past 1.5
years (it was
set up 3 years, 4 months ago) has become seemingly toxic to my health
when cleaning. I am forced to wear a full carbon filter face mask (as
used for toxic chemicals) to reduce the likelihood of getting an upper
respiratory infection when I clean. I spend approx. 3 hours every 2-3
weeks cleaning.
If I break it up to 1 hour increments over a couple of days there is no
issue as long as I wear the mask, but if done all at once, even with
the mask, I develop (as does my wife if she assists me) a dry throat
followed within an hour by mild to more aggressive coughing. The next
day the cough is productive and colored. I work in a medical clinic and
have considered culturing the sputum, but have not yet. The symptoms
(pretty lousy feeling besides the cough) last for 24 to 30 hours. --
Have you heard of this before? I also wear full arm protection so it is
unlikely that there is a connection to physical contact of the corals.
Surely someone else besides my wife and me have had issues of this
nature when cleaning their reef aquarium, but I have been unable to
find anything on the Internet.
Thanks for any advise you might be able to provide. If you need more
specific information such as what animals I have, I would be pleased to
provide that.
<Mmmm, do you run an ozone generator in this system without an ozone
filtering method? Seems unlikely that both of you would be allergic to
a substance in this system other than ozone. Mr. Fenner may also shed
his input here as this is the only item that comes to mind for me in
lieu of the protective measures you employ.
James (Salty Dog)><<I am wondering... if some small fraction
of the "spray" from the water while these folks are in/near
their tank has a titer of toxin/s from some of their Cnidarian
livestock. Please search here: http://wetwebmedia.com/Googlesearch.htm
With the string: "human health cnidarians"
Read the cached views... Likely Zoanthids... BobF>>
Wayne Luallen
Re: Upper respiratory issues when cleaning our reef
aquarium 1/15/10
Thanks to both Bob and James. I am considering an ozone generator
and/or carbon filtration.
<Both worthwhile>
I went to the URL Bob listed below and searched under "human
health cnidarians" as suggested. Many of the articles I had
already gone thru. Regrettably none of several URL's I went thru
provided any information regarding respiratory issues, but instead
dealt with the health of the aquarium animals and human
"contact" issues. All the same I do very much appreciate you
referring me to look there.
If you have any additional suggestions I would appreciate hearing from
you.
Thanks so much for your interest and advise.
Wayne
<I would be looking about, seeing if you can't find a doctor, or
researcher that has dealt with such maladies from "aquarium
contact"... Or perhaps even removing some of the types of life
from your system selectively, to see if you can discern the root of the
problem. BobF>
Palytoxins 1/15/10
Bob,
Came across this in regard to the gent having breathing problems
cleaning his tank.
FWIW I thought I would send to you.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palytoxin
James
<Ah yes. Have sent to Wayne as well. BobF>
Killing Palys. Zoanthid control, human toxicity f's--
12/04/09
Dear Crew,
<Glenn>
I have a tank being over run by brown polyps. I believe people here
call them Texas Trash Palys. At first it looked nice to have a large
mat of these but this is getting ridiculous. They were growing on all
the rock, sand and back wall. Now I have reason to believe they are
making me ill.
<No bueno!>
8 weeks ago, I did a lot of work on my tank, mainly removing algae and
removing Palys growing on the sandbed. So my hands were in the water. I
was wearing gloves, but they only come up above my wrists. I don't
remember having any cuts. That night, I had trouble sleeping due to
chills. I got up and went into the bathroom and blacked out. Busted my
head open and bruised my ribs in the process. Went to the hospital but
had no fever. My lower BP# was initially really low. Recovered an moved
on.
A few weeks ago, I discovered a leak in my sump. So I broke down my
tank and put all the live rock, including Palys in totes. That night, I
had chills again and felt dizzy when I stood up. This time I sat down
and did not black out. I recovered later in the day. I got a new DT and
setup the new tank and sump. Put the LR and Palys back in. The water
smelled terrible. All my Ricordea were dead but the Palys were alive.
The can with the fish had a few rocks with Palys. Two fish were dead
and the others were near death. That night I got the chills again. My
remaining fish were dead by morning.
<Bad, bad and worse>
I'm thinking all of this is from the Palys.
<Could be>
Even if their not the cause, I want to get rid of them anyway. They are
reduced in number, but I'm sure they'll be back. My tank
completed a cycle and I've started adding some hermits and a
brittle star to clean up anything left decaying in there. I as hoping
to begin restocking fish this weekend. How can I kill the Paly's
and not have another cycle of the tank?
<Remove all rock with them, the Zoanthids on them... Bleach... for a
day... Rinse, let the "old" rock air dry... for a few days...
Place back in the system with some new atop to reseed with other forms
of life>
Not to mention avoid taking the rock out of the tank and manually
removing them?
<This is what is necessary... Either that or nuking/bleaching all in
place.
Yes, I am serious. You are by far not the first or worst to be
malaffected by these Sea Mats... Do take care. Bob Fenner>
Thanks,
Glenn
Infections in the skin from coral (dangers of SW sys.
keeping) 11/8/2009
Hello,
<Hi there>
I know these may simply be too gross to post, but if they can
prevent someone from undergoing what I've gone through, not
once, but twice now, I'd sure like to contribute them.
<I thank you for this. You will have saved many others great
trouble>
My name is Renee, and I am a coral enthusiast and like most of
us, I heard some things about coral being poisonous, and how not
to take much of it to heart, that it's just over-stated to
make us afraid, and - well, let me just say that I am now much
more cautious due to a couple things that happened to me while
reef-keeping, with varying degrees of poisoning and illness.
#1: Longhorn Cowfish poisoning. It's not Tetratoxin, but
it's called Ostracitoxin.
<Yes... is an Ostraciid species (a boxfish), not a
"true" puffer (family Tetraodontidae)>
My fish was in a 10 gallon hospital tank. She had Ich, and passed
on and when she did, I noticed a slight foamy look to the water,
so I slid it to the sink to dump it, and as I did, the tank
slipped, cut my finger on the plastic liner to the bone and the
water went inside of this open wound while I poured it into the
sink. I was completely unaware that they carry toxin, as my pet
store had told me that they were 100% safe to keep in a reef.
<Mmm, not so>
He even said people over-react about the puffers being poison and
laughed it off when I had originally inquired.
I called the poison control center, and they told me that it
could make me ill, to be careful for 4 to 6 hours and if I showed
any illness signs, to call them back.
About 8 hours later, (way after poison control's time
period), I began heavily salivating to the point it was hard to
swallow it. Mucous got thick in my throat and I felt really
dizzy. I vomited, and it passed, and if it had not subsided,
I'd have called 911. I forced water and fluids for 24 hours
and was fine.
Additionally: Poison control told me that a curator for the Shedd
Aquarium once poked himself with a dead blowfish spike (which was
the only case he could find like mine) and had a minor
reaction.
<Reactions vary... akin to proteinaceous stings of social
insects>
I thought I'd note that when I told the local store owner I
had purchased the fish from about the incident, he did not
believe me.
<Reflex defensive mechanism>
#2: Foxface Rabbitfish : Ouch. I had him over a year. I took him
out of a fish trap he had accidentally gotten into and as I did,
his fins went between my thumb and forefinger, lightly brushing
as he went into the tank. Mind you, he did not poke my skin. He
brushed it. IT BURNS. It stung like an amplified bee-sting. My
hand swelled...and I put it under water, cleaned it and it
wasn't bothering me an hour later, although I hear they can
truly poison you if they poke the skin...I am thankful that mine
was just a brush of fins and that I was not poked by one.
#3: The infections: Coral can bring with it some of the worst
bacteria known to man. Here is one small video and a few small
photos of varying infections caught after handling coral at my
home.
The nose images may seem hard to believe, and the video of it, 2
weeks later (still huge, but going down), as it heals is still
hard to believe.
Note: The nose.jpg photo is after the initial abscess was
removed, after the treatment was given and antibiotics
administered, 6 days into the infection. I had become very ill,
and at one point, I had begun getting weak and dizzy from the
infection.
10dayslater.jpg is 10 days after initial onset of infection.
The video is about 2 weeks later...and you can see how it has
permanently damaged my noise now. I have a dent, a little hole
and a permanent tear in the nostril.
I had gone to my friend Josh's house, sat on his sofa,
handled 3 containers of frags I got from him, itched my nose and
by the time it took me to drive 100 miles home, it had already
begun itching severely.
Within 24 hours, it was a whopping 2.5" across and was
unable to see past my nose.
<Yeeikes!>
You cannot imagine the pain from this. Just think how it feels
when you get a blemish on/in the nose, let alone one that goes
completely through from the top to the inside.
The neck images (2, one prior to removal of abscess, one after):
The neck became infected when I handled coral and then scratched
a blemish lightly, after a hand wash. The physicians said I had
not cleaned under my nails thoroughly enough, and the bacteria
(which I have never had identified) had entered that way. Within
8 hours of touching my tank, it was already swollen and inflamed.
Within 5 days, it abscessed into a huge abscess, which
subsequently was excised. The remaining hole is what is in the
second image, and I am permanently scarred from this as well.
My point in sending this to you is to help prevent readers from
undergoing these same infections.
Cautions I now take:
1. Wear gloves.
2. Wash hands under hot soapy water when finished, being very
sure to scrub under the nails.
3. Read anything you can on fish before you handle them and check
to find out if they carry toxin. I had no clue my Foxfish was
poisonous till I was brushed by his fins.
Just be careful. We love our reefs, and fish and tanks, but the
truth is, they can be a dangerous place to play in and unless we
use some caution, know what we are fishing around in and are
aware of potential dangers, then we are blindly walking in an
attack zone.
Use caution please.
Renee
<Again, many thanks for your sharing/caring. Bob
Fenner>
|
|
Re: Infections in the skin from
coral 11/8/2009
You are welcome, Bob. You are also more than welcome to use the
images or film to help people and to give them a healthy caution of
the dangers lurking in their tanks.
<Thank you Renee>
I found that in my local shops, there is a generalized dis-belief
about the dangers of reef-keeping.
<Yes... and though there is a bit of risk, I have optioned to
post my more dire (though not alarmist in my value system) warnings
on WWM, in articles, books>
3 local stores are still selling customers cow-fish, and right in
front of me, one week after I had been poisoned, just after I told
him the story, the owner told a customer to go ahead and buy the
cowfish, that I had been misguided and probably had the flu.
Renee
<!? Bizarre. BobF> |
Palytoxin... Zoanthid issue... have you? Jeff wants to know!
6/27/2009
Thanks for posting my question. I would like to post a follow up to
those who responded. Did anyone see an ophthalmologist? If so, what
were the findings? Specifically, did anyone have an immunologic ring
infiltrate, diffuse lamellar keratitis (Sands of Sahara), or decreased
cornea sensation? Also, did anyone with problems dose vodka or another
carbohydrate source? Palytoxin has a backbone containing 115 contiguous
carbon atoms. I am curious if carbohydrate dosing might facilitate
palytoxin production.
Thanks
Jeff
<Will post, share, accumulate. BobF>
Possible palytoxin eye injury... Have you or someone you
know had eye issues related to handling Cnidarians? Jeff is looking for
your input 6/13/09
I am working up a case of corneal damage that occurred during removal
of a colony of Acanthastrea lordhoweensis from a portion of rock also
covered with a Palyzoa species. Some of the features of the injury, the
inflammatory response, and the course of wound healing are concerning
for toxic injury. There is very little information in the medical
literature on this topic other than a single very brief case report and
an animal
study from 1974, prior to the characterization of palytoxin. I would be
interested if this has been encountered previously in hobbyists and
also if there is an expert in Palythoa and coral toxins in general that
might be worth contacting.
Thanks,
Jeff Jacobsen
<I only know of anecdotal accounts... but am willing to post your
request for others input... Would you like to use/have this email
address posted?
Bob Fenner>
Thanks for the response. This email address is fine.
Jeff Jacobsen <Jeffrey.Jacobsen@hsc.utah.edu>
Will post then. BobF.
Palytoxin-like compounds and Marine Aerosols... Zoanthid
sel., human hlth. f's
I am writing you today, as I came across the question below on your
website. My family has experienced a similar situation, and I would
like to share it with you, along with a recent article I found dated
March 13, 2009 that directly ties Palytoxin-like compounds to marine
aerosols.
<Thank you for this>
"Human Lung Disease? 11/26/07
Dear Dr. Fenner,
<Just Bob please... I have no doctorate>
Friday I spent several hours cleaning my sump, pumps, heaters etc. Most
of this time was spent hunched over the garage sink with a lot of water
vapor rising up into my face. That evening, my lungs felt inflamed. The
next day (yesterday) a cough developed and then a high fever followed
with all of the usual aches and pains associated. The reason I am
writing is because there seems to be a very clear correlation between
the cleaning of the sump and the rapid onset of this illness. I read
the article posted on your site regarding aquariums and human health,
and most of it seemed related to skin infections. Do you know of
diseases of the lungs caused by the inhalation of bacteria commonly
found in substrate? If so, I would greatly appreciate any
references.
Best wishes to you all,
Brad in Basalt
<I do not... but do encourage you to seek out medical attention if
you are concerned... I wish you good health. Bob Fenner>"
Cellular Physiology and Biochemistry
http://www.online.karger.com/ProdukteDB/produkte.asp?Aktion=ShowPDF&ArtikelN
r=218190&Ausgabe=249208&ProduktNr=224332&filename=218190.pdf
Production of Functionally Active Palytoxin-like Compounds by
Mediterranean Ostreopsis cf. siamensis
Palytoxin is one of the largest and highly potent marine toxins first
isolated from Zoanthids of the genus Palythoa. It has been also found
in sea anemones, Polychaete worms, crabs and herbivorous fishes.
However, algae from the genus Ostreopsis have been proposed as the
possible biogenetic origin of this toxin as well as some potent
analogues, e.g. ostreocin-D.
Palytoxin-like compounds also cause human sufferings because of
exposure to the marine aerosols, with symptoms that include fever
associated to serious respiratory disturbs, such as
bronchoconstriction, mild dyspnea, wheezes, and in some cases
conjunctivitis.
Here is our story:
Palytoxin Poisoning from Palythoa Polyps
Dave and I want to share a bizarre experience we have encountered,
should you know of anyone who owns a salt water fishtank, and finds
themselves getting sick from the water.
Dave recently purchased a 75 gal aquarium and then found a guy on
Craigslist who was selling everything in his tank, as his doctor told
him he was allergic to his fishtank. Every time the guy stuck his hand
in the water he would get sick.
This sounded "odd", but we went ahead and purchased about 90
pounds of live rock, various sea anemones, etc. We really didn't
know what the entire package included, but believed it was safe enough
to transfer to our tank without gloves.
That night Dave , Kent and I all became dreadfully ill for 4 days. Dave
had a fever for 3 days that peaked at 103.5. All of us had muscle
aches, stomach cramps, difficulty breathing, coughing, diarrhea, nausea
and headaches. Only Dave had the fever.
We recovered, only finding our family repeating this cycle every time
Dave stuck his hand or arm in the tank, (to clean or move things
around). After Dave's 5th fever of 101.7 he went to the doctor and
they ruled out Swine Flu, but we had him tested for Salmonella
Paratyphis B and Vibrio, both rare aquarium diseases that can both be
quite dangerous.
We contacted the owners of Saltwater City in Bellevue , one of which is
a Marine Biologist, and the other, "Andy" a microbiologist
and research scientist. He believed we must have poisonous Palythoa
Polyps growing in our tank. (They look like purple flowers.) This
turned out to be exactly the problem. We called the previous owner and
asked him what his "allergy symptoms" were, and they were
identical to ours. Our family would get these symptoms just by
BREATHING the fumes from the tank. We have since removed these deadly
polyps, and are in the process of de-toxifying our aquarium.
Andy, from Salt Water City had a case of this only one other time.
Every time the guy stuck his bare arm in the tank, he would get sick
with a fever. He removed his Palys and recovered. Also, we did find out
that the previous owner who sold us this live rock package had the
exact same symptoms as us! Every time he stuck his hands in the water,
he would get sick with a fever.
He has since recovered.
Trev Dakan, the owner and Marine Biologist of Salt Water City claimed
that a couple times in his life, when we was cleaning out a "bad
tank" he would get very ill with a fever. He just thought he
caught the flu.
We have recently removed 4 LARGE clusters of Palythoa Polyps, and we
also are removing all the sand in our tank, slowly, in sections to go
bare bottom. The sand is in a bucket in our garage. If you were to
stick your head in the bucket and breath in, you WILL find yourself
coughing.
We have been to the Dr. My husband became the most sick, as his immune
system has been compromised prior to all of this due to a sinus
surgery.
Anyway, they did a chest X-ray, tested for every kind of bacterial
infection, and read the above article linking Palytoxin-like compounds
to marine aerosols. They believe this is the cause of our problem.
(They did find Dave's white blood cells to be high. The
microbiologist said this is common with Palytoxin exposure)
We are currently cycling "Chemipure" thru out tank for two
months to try to purify the tank. We understand we may have to
"gut" the whole thing and sterilize it, but the experts we
have talked to think we can save everything by trying this method.
Currently we have not had any reactions around the tank, but we do use
gloves up to our armpits before entering the tank.
If you have any thoughts you would like to share, we are more than
happy to listen.
Thank you for your time!
Sincerely,
Amy and David Fulton
Monroe, WA
<Again, thank you for sharing... You may well have saved several
others from very dire Zoanthid health issues. Bob Fenner>
Human injury from marines 11/29/04 HELP! I was pulling macro
algae from my refugiums this morning and something toxic or poisonous
splashed or squirted into my right eye and has caused severe burning
and dizziness for past 3 hours... I am going to the hospital soon but
was wondering if anyone might know a bit more about poisonous or toxic
plants... or sea anemones. <many possibilities here...
but cnidarians (coral or anemone.. especially Zoanthids) are the likely
dangerous candidates> I have Grape, Fern Caulerpa,
Halimeda and Chaetomorpha as macros and they're may be a
tiny anemones in there as well.. could it have been an anemone or fluid
from one of these macros? <Caulerpa is actually rather toxic>
It's something so nasty I have been in severe pain for several
hours and my nose is running constantly with headache and nausea. I
will see a doctor but he will need to know more about what may have
caused this. Any help would be great. Thanks, Chris <get thee to a
hospital ASAP, my friend! With a list of species in your tank.
Anthony>
Advice to ALL re dangers of pet-fishing Hi crew, <How goes
it, M. Maddox here, tired of answering "how do I get rid of
algae" questions, this one looked like a nice reprieve ;)> I
just want to give advice to all reef keepers. It should go
without saying, but it is easy to be lax on this. After
putting your hands in your reef tank, SCRUB them clean
immediately. I added 2 corals and
re-arranged some others, and failed to wash my hands after.
I now have Allergic Conjuctivitis in both my eyes, and it really
sucks. <Ouch, get well soon. I sound bit of
advice> I imagine one of you is laughing, but it is an
overlooked "procedure". <Not at all, good
practice. Also, avoid ingesting\absorbing toxins from
Zoanthids\palythoas, all of you!> Tearing, blood shot, and
miserable, James <Hope you feel better soon. M.
Maddox>
Medusa Sting in Mexico Hello, My 80 year old father was stung
2 days ago in Santiago, Mexico. The Jellyfish was described as
"small, stringy and black with 'legs'". A doctor in
town said "medusa", gave my father an antidote shot as well
as a shot for the pain. He sent him home with prescription to take for
2 days that was something like an antihistamine and some pills for
pain. As soon as shot wore off, Dad had an all- nighter in pain which
only hot packs would relieve. He now feels fine. Can you tell me
the likely identity of this jellyfish, the antidote and whether there
is any remaining threat to my Dad's health. He was stung in the
ankle. Much Thanks, JM <Cannot tell either... but am surprised at
the availability of an "antidote"... antihistamines,
analgesics are standard treatment for such stings... with more
treatment for shock in some folks. Some Medusoids are very dangerous
indeed. Bob Fenner>
Torch Coral Sting 4/28/05 Hi, During routine cleaning, I
accidentally touched my torch coral several times with my left hand. I
have been experiencing numbness in the hand since then. I understand
that this coral has moderately potent stinging capability. Are my
symptoms normal? I have no redness or swelling, and no pain. Thank you,
Matthew W. Stone R.T.(R) Cardiac Cath Lab Lead Tech <Some
folks can be quite sensitive to coral stings. Symptoms typically range
from minor irritation to redness and welts. Severe sensitivities and
allergies are rare but do occur. Since you work in a hospital, I would
suggest that you ask some of the physicians (especially ER) for any
suggestions. In the future, I would suggest that you wear gloves when
working in the tank if you have symptoms of more serious allergic
reactions, seek formal medical advice. Best Regards. AdamC, CCP
Perfusionist.>
Hosting Sea anemone killed BC Shrimp &
Terrorizing hosted Clarkiis Hi. My sea anemone is friends with
my mated pair of Clarkiis but today when I came home it had the BC
shrimp trapped-not eaten, but dead- and retracts when the clowns
try to snuggle. I tried to remove it with a tool but my hands
quickly became swollen upon contact with the water. I took Benadryl
and am fine. My clowns, however, look sick and are breath hard. my
? is : is the water full of toxin or is it electrified or low on
oxygen or what??? Also, the shrimp is large, should I try to remove
it? The clowns are still trying to feed the anemone and are not
eating themselves. <I don't know what has gone on here...
but perhaps the anemone caught, killed the shrimp on its contacting
it... You apparently have a great sensitivity to whatever is in the
water... I would change out a good percentage of the water here,
monitor water quality... Bob Fenner> |
|
Elegance sting Bob, I normally am good
about my research, but I can't seem to get a straight answer
about this question: -Details: I have a med. to large elegance
coral in a healthy 75 gal mini reef about 2 years old. A few months
ago I removed a nuisance Condy anemone and my Maroon Clown started
nesting in the elegance. Cool! The only problem is that the
elegance seems to have become much more aggressive/venomous.
<I do not believe it is virtue of the clownfish> I was
working with a little placement in the tank and it's tentacles
grabbed on as usual and I washed my arms when I was done... That
evening, I had about 11 sting marks on my arm that had grown into
gigantic welts. They later became scars that haunt me today -3
months later. <yes very serious indeed> I am not
allergic to bee stings and I never went into any kind of shock, but
there is one symptom I received that worried me both last time and
tonight. - I become slightly disorientated and nervous...like a
panic attack. (remember... I thought nothing of the first sting and
was not worried at all) <you must be careful of repetitive
stings... each will get worse and enough in a lifetime can
theoretically send you into anaphylactic shock.> WHOA! -I have
already consulted the appropriate doctors and all they can say is -
"you can breath, you must be fine." <they just
have no experience with repetitive Cnidarian stings> I certainly
would understand any hesitancy to answer, but I'm just shooting
in the dark. -Meaning, I would never hold your advise responsible.
<yes... thank you. And I am simply saying that your concern
seems to be warranted. My advice to you and all aquarists for the
safety of you and your corals (from each other) is for you to wear
gloves when working in the aquarium. Corals are protected from
contamination from your skin, under nails, etc and you are
protected fro pads, paws and claws> -Question: In your
experience, can coral toxins have this effect? It's not a
nervous shock by any means, just an in between state.
<having been a coral farmer for nearly a decade on a commercial
scale, I am very familiar with this. Euphylliids like your elegant
coral are some of the worst. My nemesis is a relative Euphylliid
the torch coral (E. glabrescens). I have been stung enough times by
such cnidarians that the slightest brush with he animal feels like
a full wall current electric shock! Indeed... it amplifies/gets
worse every time> Are there known euphoric effects these toxins
have? <I'm still looking...heehee> Are there any
resources that discuss this in plain English? <hmm.... more than
a studies on the derivatives of "toxins" from coral, but
you haven't actually been poisoned with a toxin. You have been
stung and the sensation that you feel is mostly your bodies
reaction to being stung. Indeed... an allergic reaction. Like being
asthmatic> Thanks for any hints on this -Best! Dan J.W.
<advice: Tunze gloves...heehee. Best regards, Anthony> |
|
Re: Elegance sting Thank you Anthony for
the hints! <very welcome my friend> I'm certainly a
careful person, but it just seemed harmless in the beginning.
I'll be ordering gloves tonight in case I have to do any more
shifting in the near future. <excellent!> You know, the sting
can never be felt until minutes later. (I think my bodies nervous
system just freaks out when there's something like that
present. Similar to negative feelings I had at a few parties in
college when someone passed around something cheap!) <Ha!>
Any how, I'm a Graphic designer/developer for a large ISP in
MN... If there's something small I could contribute as
thanks... Let me know. <how about a small, single, fair
skinned girl that likes short hairy men of Mediterranean extraction
who eats enough garlic to drop bats from eaves as he walks by?>
I would be more than happy:-) <and I would too... in the
meantime, your friendship is more than enough> -Best! <with
kind regards, Anthony> Dan PS> You'll find my evil friend
in the pic as he sat in a 55 gal last fall. ( I have plenty of sand
room in my 75 to set him in now...) <indeed... such corals with
conical corallums NEED to be nestled upon a spacious sand bottom.
Kudos> |
Palytoxin poisoning? 8.15.05 I've got a very important
question here. This morning 11 AM, I changed 30% of water in my 15
gallon reef tank. I also rearranged the live rocks. But I forgot that I
have a wound on my finger. But it was already dry, a scab. I have a
Zoanthid colony (cats eye polyp) in my tank and I also moved it with my
hands and been in contact with it for about 5 minutes, also removing
some of the polyps that had been detached from the colony. I worked in
the tank for about 20 minutes so the dry wound became soft again
because of being soaked by the sea water. And only about 10 min.s ago I
was reading about the palytoxins that Zoanthid have. I'm really
very concerned about this. Have I been poisoned? I'm not really
feeling anything unusual up to now and its been 12 hrs since I've
had contact with the polyps. Please advise. I'm really scared.
<no worries my friend... as someone who has been poisoned... sigh
(my stupidity), no less than three times, I can assure you that
you'd know it by now. The sensation is almost instantaneous...
starting with a metallic taste in the mouth. in severe cases/reactions,
you will have difficulty breathing. A search of the big message boards
will reveal other such stories.> I didn't know about the
potential dangers of Zoanthids. I did some research about their care
but haven't read about their toxicity. <Some species are fatally
toxic. But you'd be amazed how many other organisms in your tank
are also quite noxious to taste, touch, etc: sponges, tunicates, many
snails, etc. The lesson here is to please(!) wear latex gloves - for
your safety and for your corals safe(r) keeping. Anthony>
Re:
Maroon Clowns... Anemone sensitivity 9/2/05 James, She
started eating and she has a pretty big appetite now. I tried frozen
brine and I decided to give one of the other fish some small chunks of
frozen krill and she ate it before they even had a chance. She did not
even like krill the last time I tried to give it to her. Thank you guys
so much. I also wanted to tell everybody that I had my first encounter
with an anemone sting last night. I was trying to get my LTA to settle
down yesterday and I put a light plastic net over it, went to work and
felt a little spaced out all day, a couple of people asked me if I was
alright and I didn't know any better at that point so I thought I
was okay. I also decided to go for a 7.8 miles long bike ride and felt
a little more sluggish than usual afterwards. Last night at 4:30 AM I
woke up and had a panic attack, was covered in hives, and felt like my
skin was on fire from the inside. I was beyond terrified at this point,
and after a little research found that soaking the affected area in
Vinegar for 30 minutes and taking some Benadryl the panic attack and
hives went away. There were about 30 little white things that I could
see floating in the Vinegar after I was done soaking my hand in it.
I'm going to invest in some really good gloves now. Just thought
that might be useful to let anybody interested in keeping anemones know
about the prospective dangers involved. I did not even feel it sting
me. You guys are the best resource available in this hobby. Thank you
for what you do. <Tate, glad to hear the clown is
eating. Your reaction to the anemone sting is not a common
occurrence. You would probably have a similar reaction to a
bee sting. Some people are much more sensitive to stings
than others. James (Salty Dog)> Tate
Zoanthid
toxicity... to aquarists 02/12/06 Greetings to the best reef site
on the net! <Hello! John here this morning!> As always when I
have a question or concern I turn to WWM. The question/concern is in
regard to Zoanthids. I seem to be finding many references as to the
toxicity of Zoanthids. As i am just reef hobbyist I am in no way an
expert on such matters. <Me too.. but have read first-hand accounts
of problems due to Palytoxin, the toxin responsible.> Can you give
me and all of my fellow reefers some insight into just how dangerous
Zoanthids are? Are they potentially fatal? <Very much so, although
this appears to be uncommon> What are the risks to us?
<Dizziness, Short-term paralysis, death. Eric Borneman's
"Aquarium Corals" has a few accounts of Palytoxin poisoning
by aquarists. Here is an account: http://www.browseatwork.com/nph-proxy.cgi/000110A/http/www.thepufferforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php=3ft=3d2729
. Another is here: http://www.reefpark.co.uk/bb/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=703> What
special precautions are needed when handling zos? <I would wear
gloves, and wash hands/gloves thoroughly after use. If you don't
have gloves, make sure you have no breaks in your skin when handling
these corals. If fragging Zoanthids, definitely wear gloves, and
consider eye protection.> Are all zos venomous? <Not sure... I
believe Palythoa are the worst.> Which types are the deadliest?
Sorry to be alarmed or worried but I don't ever recall seeing any
warnings posted in any LFS. Thanks again <You're welcome... Best
regards, John.>
Several questions about clownfish, Kalkwasser, human
pregnancy - 03/05/06 Hello wise wet pet peeps, <Okay> I
sent in a question about 6 months ago but I don't know how to find
the answer. <We respond directly to all, post most all> I
searched using a bunch of keywords but didn't find anything. So I
guess my pre-question is if my question(s) are answered how do I find
them on the WetWebMedia website? <Mmm, I'd search (Google on
WWM) by key terms> How do I know if they are answered at all? <If
we get it, we respond... Have had troubles with incoming however off
and on> But here are my current questions. Question 1 is about a
clownfish. I have been thinking about an anemone for about 6 months but
every time I do research I realize it is not a wise thing to do so I
have given up on that dream. One day I will set up an anemone tank.
Something to look forward to. I have a 90 gallon tank with metal
halides and power compacts, a very good protein skimmer, good current,
and great water quality. I do a 5 to 10 gallon water change twice a
week. Everything in my tank seems very consistently happy (although I
have had a bit of bubble algae since almost day one) (I have a couple
tangs, couple clowns, royal Gramma, shrimp, snails, hermits, red and
green brain, hammerhead, mushrooms, polyps, cabbage, trumpet, leather,
clam). The tank is a year and a half old. I have 2 ocellaris clowns
that are tank bred. The female tried to host in a flowerpot that was
thriving for about a year. After about 2 months the constant kamikaze
dives by the female clownfish killed it. Now the clown is going after
two other corals in my tank. A green brain and a pagoda. The brain
doesn't seem to mind it too much but the pagoda is not a happy
camper. I moved the pagoda but the clown found it quickly. I have a 2nd
similar tank at my office and the clownfish there tries to use a green
brain as well. I'm wondering will the brains survive?
<Perhaps> Is there any other coral that will withstand the
clown's hosting attempts better that I can put in my tanks?
<Likely a/nother Euphylliid> Question 2 is about Kalkwasser. I
drip this every other day or so and on the alternate days I use the A/B
combo mix. I've read about the dangers of KW on human lungs and
I'm wondering if there is an alternative? <...?> Why
doesn't someone develop a sort of Alka seltzer like dissolving
tablet that can be dropped in the dripper so there is no powder
"smoke" to be inhaled? <Good idea> It is quite
hilarious that all of us reef nerds have learned to hold our breath
long enough to prepare a KW drip! Question 3 is about human pregnancy
and a reef tank. I have had 3 miscarriages in the last year and a half
and I am wondering if there are any areas of reef keeping that have
been linked with prenatal problems. <... not as far as I'm
aware> I've done research and can't find anything on this
topic. I have been wearing gloves (FYI). I am also wondering about the
dangers of Kalkwasser pertaining to this subject? <I hope not> I
appreciate your response on the 3 questions above. Sorry for the
lengthy prose! Regards. <Bob Fenner>
Red Phorbas sponge 7/7/06 Have you ever heard of
a red Phorbas sponge encrusting a red fire coral? <Yes,
have seen this> I was snorkeling in Bermuda recently and as a novice
didn't know not to touch, <Yeeowch> so I picked up what
looked to me like a sponge, it was red, sort of cone shaped but with
holes in the top that made it look like a sponge. I carried
it around for a few minutes while snorkeling and showed my
son. He also picked one up. When we got out of
the water our hands began to burn. The locals told us it was red fire
coral. Our hands burned and itched for 24-48 hours but then
resolved. My reaction has come back and my hands all swelled
up. I am now on prednisone. I told the doctors
that I picked up red fire coral. In researching this on your
site the red fire corals seem to be fan shaped. <Mmm, commonly, but
come in all shapes> In looking at pictures of sponges I came across
the red Phorbas sponge and that looks like what I picked
up. It says that they encrust dead or live
corals. Or do you know if this is one of the
"fire" sponges. And where I might find more info
about fire sponges? I am still searching. Thanks
for any help you can provide Typing with sore fingers, Katie McDonald
<I'll bet, and unfortunately I'm fresh out of time as well.
Please read through this search listing: http://www.google.com/search?q=are+phorbas+sponges+toxic%3f
Bob Fenner, off to finish cooking dinner for 500>
Rash from Handling Live Rock (Wear Those Gloves!) - 05/10/06
I don't know if this e-mail should be addressed to you,
"crew," or otherwise. <<"Crew" is fine as
there is no set protocol on "who" will reply>> I've
seen some info on your site about infections/diseases which can be
caught from an aquarium. About 3 weeks ago (this Thursday),
I was cleaning a new batch of Fiji live rock that I had just
received. I foolishly did not use gloves (which after the
fact, I found out was a good idea). <<Indeed>> I was
holding each piece in my left hand, while scrubbing it with a brush in
my right, and then adding it to a garbage can. After I had
finished, my left hand began burning, and I noticed little spines
sticking out of my hands... <<Mmm...>> This reminded me of
getting fiberglass on my hand. <<Very similar, but with a
twist...the spines may have carried a venom. It sounds like
you came in contact with a/several large bristle worms while
cleaning/handling the rock>> These spines were very thin, and
appeared to be clear. I removed what I could find with
tweezers, but I could tell that a couple were still there. <<Yes,
very difficult to remove this way as most will fragment leaving behind
the embedded portion in your skin...though these usually dissolve away
within a couple/few days>> About 2 days ago, I have developed a
rash on my left hand. <<Possibly an infection...different folks
react/have differing levels of sensitivity to these
"stings">> It is red, blotchy, and slightly bumpy, and
it itches. The two incidents may be completely unrelated,
<<Not likely>> and I am going to see a doctor tomorrow
about this; however, if he is unfamiliar with the hobby and the
"glass spines" are the cause, he may not know. <<This
is true>> If you have any thoughts as to what this rash may be,
please let me know. <<I'm fairly certain your rash is a
reaction to contact with bristle worms. Do a Google search
on our site/the NET re "bristle worms" to arm yourself with
some information to pass on to the doctor>> Thanks for your help.
<<Regards, EricR>>
Palytoxin from Palythoa spp. in my eyes? Greetings to all the
WWM Crew! <and to you!> I have a question regarding a very
painful experience I am presently still experiencing. Two days ago
while doing my regular weekly cleaning and water change,( I have a 50
gallon reef ), I noticed a few of my button polyps had detached from
the main cluster. One small group of perhaps four were just an inch or
so away from the main cluster, but I then noticed that a few had
somehow become stuck in-between the slots at the input of my power
head. So as is my custom when doing cleaning, I removed the syphon
piece and went to the sink to clean it out. Then comes my big unknown
mistake! As the button polyps were tightly fit between the syphon piece
and would not come loose by rinsing with water, I pushed them through
with my finger, which resulted in my getting a full strong squirt
directly into my eyes. I was surprised at both the force and amount
that had made direct contact into my eyes. I felt a slight sting but
thought nothing of it so I just quickly splashed some tap water on my
eyes and continued on with my water change. Soon after I went to bed.
Upon waking up yesterday morning due to the pain in my eyes, I got up
and proceeded to take a look at them and found they were almost
completely swollen shut, with the whites of my eyes beet red and a
burning pain I cannot put into words! I went to my local hospital where
my eyes were examined for corneal damage,( Non had occurred), and they
proceeded to flush my eyes with large amounts of saline. This is the
first I was to hear about Palythoa / Palytoxin! The doctor had gotten
the information through the poison center who had described my nights
unfortunate encounter with my button polyp. I was told upon my leaving
the hospital, that I could experience extreme swelling, redness,
burning, etc. . for up to a week or even more. My question to you. The
doctor made it clear he knew little of this toxin. Today my eyes are
almost swollen shut, completely red, with a large amount of crusty
discharge around the lids. My question to you is, Is this toxin known
to cause permanent damage to the eyes? I know that in the bloodstream
it can be extremely dangerous, but I would appreciate any input you
might have regarding this mysterious and highly painful toxin.
Especially as it relates to my experience? ( I realize you are not able
to give me medical advise, but please provide me with some information,
as even the doctor here seems to know little of it). Thanks WWM Crew !
I am looking forward to asking questions without the pain next time
around! <Wow! I am glad you received medical attention here because
it can be extremely serious! I feel your
pain. You can read up on more here http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ca/cav1i1/blane-zoanthids/zoanthids.htm I
haven't heard of permanent damage to eye per se, only when it
enters the blood stream and then can interact with the heart/lungs and
so on. It seems you may be having more of an allergic
reaction here - did they put you on any
antibiotics? Considering I'm not a medical doctor I
really can't tell you what needs to be done. However I
would go see a specialist (or your general for a reference
first.) Hopefully he/she will be able to do more
tests/prescribe more to help your situation. I am very sorry
that you have to experience this and it is one of the worse encounters
I've heard of. However it is your eyes, you can't be
too careful. Good luck with this. Like I said
check the link above, do more searches on here and the internet for
more in-depth info on the toxin. Keep us
updated! Jen S.>
Sincerely, Trever.
Millepora? rxn help 7/18/06 I was down in
Playa Del Carmen a week and a half ago. They believe I
got into fire coral. <Very common there... as are fire sponges
(another distinct possibility)> I was given a shot
<Of?...> and told to take Allegra and put an ointment
<Of?> on it. I was better in 3 days and no complaints.
Until this morning I woke up with it all over again. My fingers a
severely swollen and itch and red and in alot of pain. any
suggestions? Casey <Yes... I would see someone in
the medical field re... stat! Reactions differ per individual,
but such stings can be quite serious... Please read here re:
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/Wound.htm and the linked
files above. Bob Fenner>
Re: Millepora? rxn help 7/18/06 I don't
have a open wound or site of a sting is the problem. I live in
Dallas Texas and no one here quite knows what to do. I saw my
doc. this morning and he is clueless. <I... would... seek...
other medical help... An endocrinologist likely... a large
hospital. BobF>
Re: Milleporid sting? - 07/18/2006 Let me ask you
this is this something you would consider serious or life
threatening if this was in fact a Fire Coral sting ? Have you
ever seen a case where it came back ? <Mmm, not "come
back" so much as never went away... the analgesic and likely
anti-inflammatory you were administered just gave temporary
relief. Some folks have dire reactions to such stings... Bob
Fenner> So should I go to the actual hospital ? <Up to
you... how do you feel? I have been stung by Milleporina all over
the world... the pain, swelling, redness go away for me in about
a day... Bob Fenner>
|
Re: Tank/Human infections -
5/18/07 Hi Crew, <Mark> Sorry for the previous
mis-spelled word(s). My left hand still hurts. Hard to type still.
<I'll bet... can relate> I've already learned my
lesson about infections. Get gloves! So now I'm thinking about
the tank. Does this bacteria effect the corals? Fish? <Mmm,
yes... mainly indirectly in most settings... through their
metabolic activities...> Would it help the tank to get a UV
sterilizer? <Mmm, yes... but not a "cure-all">
My setup 125 gallon tank / 40 gal refugium with
Caulerpa. Big protein skimmer I think it good for up to 250gal. No
other filtration. Lights 48" Orbit (2) 150watt HQI
(2) dual 48" fluorescents Actinic03 / 7100k Is this too much?
Is there such a thing as too much light? <Mmm, no... and yes>
Mark Eason <Keep that curious mind going, studying,
discoursing... Much on these topics, issues posted... on WWM.
BobF> |
Re: Tank/Human infections
5/17/07 Hydroids? - 5/18/07 Red streaks
going up my arm and fever of 101.8. I guess I'm
very suitable to infections. More than others. The
attached pic shows no knuckles, very swollen. 2
punctures side by side. After 18 hours my hand showed signs
of infection and another 6 hours I had the fever, red
streaks which caused at least 3 shots (my buns hurt)
from the Dr. I'm still under treatment.
<<Septicemia is quite serious!>> As you can tell I
haven't down alot <No such word> of homework for my reef
tank. What are those Spikey things? Should I break them
off? <Look like a type of calcareous algae, but might be the
algae growing secondarily on other life or even non-living
(like a chemical crystal matrix) material> <<Could
these be hydroids?>> >Yes... but I did not make out the
tell-tale "hair like" structures of same< Now that I
read your article about using gloves I'm gonna get
some gloves. Mark Eason <Thank you for sharing! Bob
Fenner> |
|
Human arms in reef tanks... 7/12/07 Hello,
I was doing some work in the sump of my 300 gallon reef tank (mixed
fish inverts) and had to put my whole arm in up to about my elbow. The
next day, I noticed several small red bumps on an area of my arm? That
I had scraped while it was in the water. It has not spread but it is
seriously itchy!!! <This sounds like an allergic reaction to me.
Several types of reef invertebrates produce toxins that irritate skin
(just like poison ivy does).> Some type of fungal or bacterial
infection? Any suggestions? <We certainly can't diagnose you.
But this doesn't sound like any of the bacterial infections reef
aquarists worry most about.> I don't have any seahorses but I do
have a mixture of snails, crabs, lots of live rock, etc. I am off to
the dermatologist tomorrow <Good idea. You should always see a
doctor when you suspect an infection or allergic reaction. And do tell
the doctor you have a reef tank.> but I thought one of you guys
might have some insight so I could prevent this from happening
again....thx! <Gloves. There really isn't much else you can do
to be sure. There are so many things in reef tanks that can cause
reactions like this. Best, Sara M.> Dr Steven R. Cantor
Skin Irritations From Handling Live Rock (Wear Those
Gloves!) -- 07/12/07 Hi there! <<Hello!>> I really
appreciate all of your answers, and am currently re-reading Bob's
CMA book...wow, what loads of information. <<Ah yes, and if you
like CMA you should really enjoy the bit more updated Reef
Invertebrates book which Bob co-conspired with Anthony Calfo>>
Now my question - when I searched, I found info on corals and fish
being hurt, and some reference to what I did on a dive magazine's
article, but not the exact answer... <<...?>> After having
hurriedly moved my tank early May (we got new floors, and the tank had
to move), I only generally put the rocks back in (I swear, aquascaping
can be one of the hardest things about this hobby!)
<<Indeed...tis a matter of 'art' as well as
function>> Well, having looked at it now for 2 months, I
didn't like the arrangement, and I felt it did not have the nice
through-passes I previously had - so on Sunday I carefully redid the
aquascaping. No problem with that - except that something on the rocks
got me...again! <<Mmm...is not uncommon...and reason enough to
wear some type of protective glove>> In May, I got the finger
tips on my left ring finger and my right pointing finger - very itchy,
slight bumps, and after about 10 days, the skin peeled.
<<Yikes!>> Interestingly, when I went snorkeling in Florida
in mid-June, that newly peeled skin would turn white vs. the remaining
skin. I thought I had recovered, but I did not yet purchase gloves, not
being able to find ones that fit or that I thought would work.
<<Mmm...>> Well, when I redid the aquascape this Sunday, I
got the tips of the thumb through ring finger on my left hand...same as
last time. I did not realize it immediately, or I guess an immediate
soak in vinegar would have helped, yes? (Dive article solution for
majority of stuff you can get while diving). <<Possibly...but if
this is a 'Bristle Worm' encounter (would be my first guess), a
good wash with soap and water has worked best for me...and then of
course some time to allow the 'bristles' to dissolve. But,
everyone is different and some folks can have quite severe reactions
(as with insect stings/bites). And there's also the possibility you
have encountered or contracted something else altogether>> By
Monday morning, my ring finger pad had really swollen (although this
time the bumps are actually on the side of the finger) and it has
slightly discolored (towards the purple). I have tried the
soaking-in-as-hot-water-as-you-can-stand, soak them in Epsom salt
water, soak in vinegar, cover with Benadryl (R) cream, cover with an
antibiotic cream, taking Benadryl (R) (liquid children's version) -
but nothing seems to really help with the periods of itching.
<<If this has continued for more than a couple days I would
suggest seeing a Doctor/Dermatologist...being sure to explain/making
them understand just how you came by the affliction>> Just a few
minutes ago my thumb had an itch attack - and then it went away again a
few minutes after I applied antibiotic cream - but the itching was
almost painful in its intensity, so I am curious what is going on. Any
ideas what got me? <<I can only speculate, but my first
inclination is you have been 'stabbed' by Bristle Worms. These
beneficial detritivores are in and around the live rock you have been
handling and the slightest touch/brush will leave the ever so sharp
(and possibly toxic) bristles embedded in your skin. These bristles
will break off leaving bits that irritate and itch...but in most cases
will dissolve away within a few days. There's also a myriad of
other stinging organisms that could have caused this, depending on your
sensitivity re...or this could be a secondary infection due to
broken/scraped skin exposed to the water. Do have a read here for some
more in-depth info: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/Wound.htm >> Any
suggestions for reducing the itching? <<I find using a topical
ointment containing Cortisone to be helpful>> I have read about
toxicity of marine life, but as far as I know, I don't have fire
corals - in fact, I was simply touching my rocks, so what is on the
rocks that is so toxic? <<Many things...with exposure to Bristle
Worms being very common>> I realize it is worse this time, so I
am working very hard on getting gloves that fit to prevent this in the
future - I did learn my lesson, albeit the painful way. <<Mmm,
yes...have heard of some folks developing a more severe reaction with
every encounter...so far I have been lucky>> Thanks again for any
inputs you have, and maybe this will help someone else in the future as
well. Kerstin DeRolf <<I'm sure it will. Do get your wounds
looked at/tended if the irritation persists...and get those gloves!
Eric Russell>>
Re: Skin Irritations From Handling Live Rock (Wear
Those Gloves!) -- 07/13/07 Hi again! <<Hello Kerstin!>>
Thanks for your response -- <<My pleasure>> I do have
bristle worms (while my wrasse seems to have reduced the number, I am
not silly enough to believe that they are completely gone), <<And
not necessarily a desirable objective...are quite efficient/beneficial
(and largely misunderstood, I think) detritivores>> but also
wonder is something may be growing on some of my rocks that could have
done it as well. <<Certainly, yes...this also is a possibility.
Or simply a secondary infection of abraded flesh from exposure to the
very concentrated soup of microbes in the system>> I am glad (?)
to hear that this is not uncommon, and yes, I think I am more sensitive
to it just from having done a similar thing 2 months ago.
<<Common yes, but without being an alarmist I also don't want
to downplay the 'potential' for serious consequences
here>> I did actually read this article on Tuesday, before I
wrote to you - and some of the suggestions are the same as in the Dive
article I ran across. <<Ah, I see>> I think one of my
biggest problems is that I did not realize it on Sunday, shortly after
it happened, and so waited a long time before really doing any
treatments. I stymied my vet (specialized in dermatology, also studied
fisheries, albeit freshwater) with it - when I showed my fingers to him
this morning, at this point his solution is to do hot super-saturated
salt water or Epson Salt soaks, twice a day for 20-30 minutes, water as
hot as I can stand it. <<If this complaint is still
bothering/worsening I urge you to see a 'people' doctor (no
'slight' intended against your friend)>> I do have the
Reef Invertebrates book - like it lots too, has been useful in many
ways. <<Indeed>> Should get the next edition of
Anthony's Coral Propagation book soon, will also be interesting
reading, I feel. <<Very much in agreement>> Right now I am
trying to get Latin/technical names for my corals, many of which I
admit I bought based on looks more than anything...not useful when I
want to discuss them with anyone. <<Mmm...also not useful when
trying to determine care level/needs/overall suitability for captive
keeping...all of which should be done 'before' purchase. Eric
Borneman's book 'Aquarium Corals' may prove helpful to
you...as should this site:
http://www2.aims.gov.au/coralsearch/coralsearch.php >> Thanks
again for all your help. <<Any time>> I really enjoy
reading everything on your website - soooo much information, people
coming at it from all various aspects. <<Indeed...quite the
collaborative effort>> Kerstin:-) <<Be chatting.
EricR>> P.S. Attached is the picture of my tank after the
rearrangement that massacred my fingers - a 29-gallon that I know has
lots of corals! <<Ah yes...looks quite 'busy' in
there>> I am working on getting a new skimmer - Aqua-C Remora HOT
instead of the SeaClone I now have. <<Will be a huge
improvement>> I feel like my tank now has a heavy enough load
that it needs more than the periodic skimming <<Agreed>>
(Bob called it "a natural method" in one FAQ)
<<Indeed...do try a Google search on Lee Chin Eng and the
'Natural Method'...you think your tank looks heavily stocked
now....>> where I only run the skimmer as an actual skimmer
several times a month, and otherwise depend on the LR and LS to do much
of the filtering. <<Well past that point...in my opinion>>
I think most everyone will be happier <<Oh yes!...have you heard
of/researched the term 'Allelopathy?'>> - and hopefully
soon I will upgrade the tank size. <<Always exciting. Eric
Russell>>
Fire Coral, human hlth. 11/15/07 Just
reading your article on fire coral. You mention about getting stung and
the treatment, you should also mention that extreme caution should be
exercised also, some people like me have extreme allergy to fire coral
which can land people like me in hospital, it is not just ouch. I am
starting up the salt again soon and I shall do what you say and use
gloves at all times. Also I do not know if you mention any other corals
that can sting, I know for someone like, I must exercise extreme
caution in the hobby now. By the way I do love your site and your
articles, they are very helpful in giving information and giving
advice. Cheers Richard South <Thank you for your input here. Will
add/share. Cheers, Bob Fenner... always watching out for Milleporines
UW>
Human Lung Disease? 11/26/07 Dear Dr.
Fenner, <Just Bob please... I have no doctorate> Friday I spent
several hours cleaning my sump, pumps, heaters etc. Most of this time
was spent hunched over the garage sink with a lot of water vapor rising
up into my face. That evening, my lungs felt inflamed. The next day
(yesterday) a cough developed and then a high fever followed with all
of the usual aches and pains associated. The reason I am writing is
because there seems to be a very clear correlation between the cleaning
of the sump and the rapid onset of this illness. I read the article
posted on your site regarding aquariums and human health, and most of
it seemed related to skin infections. Do you know of diseases of the
lungs caused by the inhalation of bacteria commonly found in substrate?
If so, I would greatly appreciate any references. Best wishes to you
all, Brad in Basalt <I do not... but do encourage you to seek out
medical attention if you are concerned... I wish you good health. Bob
Fenner>
Skin Condition due to Saltwater
3/12/08 I can't find an answer to my dilemma. Please
help. Have you ever heard of anyone getting a serious skin
condition from exposure to saltwater? <Yes... an
"industry hazard"...> My 125 gallon reef tank has a
smell even though the water is clear. Seems like an algae smell.
My problem is that I am getting skin outbreaks & eye itching
that I can't help but think is coming from the aquarium. When
I rub my eyes, I think I smell "that smell" coming from
my tear ducts. Any of this make sense? <... Yes! Very
important that you be extremely careful here... I would ONLY
place my hands in the system with long gloves on my hands...
There are such for many purposes... Read here:
http://wetwebmedia.com/Wound.htm and esp. the linked FAQs files
above. I would see a dermatologist re as well. Bob
Fenner>
Re: Skin Condition due to Saltwater 3/14/08 Thank
you! <Welcome! I and many other friends in the trade have
suffered dermatological troubles from SW exposure... some can
"get by" with lotions of different sorts use... Others
have had to learn to keep their hands/arms out of tanks entirely!
There are many possible negative interactions biologically as
well to consider... The best "remedy" are arm-length
gloves of quality. Cheers, Bob Fenner>
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Zoanthids, palytoxin, human contact 4/9/08
Mr. Fenner, I have a disease called scleroderma that effects my
autoimmune process and need to be cautious. I have read about the
neurotoxin called palytoxin that occurs with Zoanthid polyps. I read
about the need for caution and it's effects but on the other hand I
get the impression its occurrence in the aquarium hobby seems rare.
With this in mind I have what I believe is a Zoanthid Palythoa that
looks like the common type with green polyps. I'm new to the hobby
and need to know if I have a serious concern. I intend to use gloves if
the need comes to physical touch it, but do I need to be concerned
about making contact with the aquarium water with my hands. Your input
will be appreciated. Steve C. <Mmm, always best to be cautious when
dealing with Zoanthids... particularly in handling directly, as in
asexual propagation/cutting. I do advise that you, actually most
everyone wear good gloves whenever they place their hands in their
tanks... to prevent possible troubles for themselves during exposure,
as well as to disallow contamination. Cheers, Bob Fenner>
May be Poisoned? 5/10/08 Hi, I was
helping my boyfriend move his 12 gallon nano home today from school and
in the process I spilled some tank water on my leg that has an open
cut. The corals were all extremely irritated at being moved and I'm
sure they gave off some type of toxin in the process. <Possibly, the
zoos more than anything as far as toxins pertaining to effects on
humans.> Its been about 10 hours and my leg is starting to hurt from
my hip to my foot almost as if its just a strained muscle. I thought at
first that's what it was because we moved a lot of stuff today but
that was until I thought about the water being spilled on my leg where
I had a cut. The corals in the tank are Zoanthids, mushrooms, Ricordea
mushrooms, Acans, Xenia, yellow Toadstool Leather, and Frogspawn. I
believe that's everything that's in there. The pain in my leg
didn't start right away but now its extremely sore. Its 2 a.m.
where I am and I don't know if I want to wake my entire house to go
to the hospital if it really is just a sore muscle. I don't even
remember cutting my leg so I'm not sure how old the cut actually
was once the water hit it. <Even if there were toxins in the water,
the dilution thereof should be of no consequence. It is likely not
related to the water spilling onto your leg other than any possibility
of an infection (even then not likely brought about by the spill
alone). I/we are not M.D.'s, if you have any concerns about your
well being, by all means do consult a physician, other concerns may be
at play here. I wish you the best, Scott V.>
Zoanthus vs. Palythoa vs. Protopalythoa: Palytoxin 07/07/08
Hi WWM crew, <Hello Brian! Sorry about the slow response, I was
asleep at the wheel...> I'm writing you about palytoxin because
I so far cannot find concrete answers about it anywhere and I have
children and pets around my tanks. <Yes...many stories, few facts
available to the hobbyist> This is my first letter to you all after
many readings (including reading many of your letters on Zoanthidea and
palytoxin). I have a few quick questions and I would appreciate any
citations to additional resources you can give, the more scientific the
better. I'm trying to get hold of the Book of Coral Propagation by
Anthony and Corals and Coral Reefs by Eric Borneman since I hear they
have good info on palytoxin but no luck so far (they're
expensive!). <Calfo gives some anecdotal info that is helpful-
cautionary - to the hobbyist. If you're interested in scientific
texts on palytoxins you might try a local library or (preferably) a
college library where you can gain access to scholarly journals.
Perhaps a search of scholar.google.com or JSTOR would be fruitful in
this area.> (1) How can you tell the difference between a Zoanthus,
a Palythoa, and a Protopalythoa species of Zoanthidea? I would like to
concretely identify what is in my tank and learn how to ID future
specimens. <As I understand it, this largely relates to the common
foot. As hobbyists Zoanthus are the smaller, more colorful polyps
sharing a foot; Parazoanthus being larger, more distinctly carnivorous,
and still sharing a common foot, and the Palythoa/Protopalythoa being
colonies of unconnected large polyps> (2) Do all Zoanthidea species
have palytoxin in them? I know that even within Palythoa, not all
specimens have palytoxin in them, but I'm wondering here whether
all 3 species have palytoxin or if, for example, Zoanthus are safe and
do not have it. <All of these families may/do produce palytoxin and
other organic poisons> (3) If not all Zoanthidea have palytoxin,
which ones do not have it? <Can't be told based on appearance,
unfortunately. We must suspect all...for safety reasons> (4) Where
is the palytoxin actually "kept" in the Zoanthidea? Is it
ever released other than when the specimen is damaged or cut? How is it
released (I've read about it squirting out of Zoanthus but never
seen anything on how they actually release it)? <It is held in the
fluid of the mesophyl, exuded in mucous, as an allelopathic
compound.> (5) Is palytoxin also harmful to other things in the tank
(e.g. other corals, fish, inverts, macroalgae, etc.)? <Anything with
nervous tissue, motor function> (6) I have two Zoanthidea in my tank
now that I was told, when buying them, were Zoanthus. I knew nothing
about palytoxins so didn't ask any questions beyond that
identification. They have spread off the original frag/rock/disc they
came on and some of the polyps are bridging the gap between the frag
disc and the live rock. If it turns out these are a species that
sometimes contains palytoxin I'll probably not keep them, the risk
seems not worth it despite their beauty. How should I go about removing
them from the tank to minimize the risk of palytoxin exposure? <The
only way to eliminate exposure would be to take the polyps and the
rocks they are on, bag them in garbage sacks, and dispose of them.>
I've taken up a lot of your time already, so I'll stop here.
Thank you again for your answers. <Unless these creatures are
handled, palytoxin poisoning is unlikely. If you are concerned about
colony size or a child reaching a hand in the tank, removing these is
probably prudent. DO take care in handling them (gloves, goggles, etc.)
especially if they have been severed or crushed.> Sincerely, Brian
<Benjamin>
Coral poison to humans? I know when you agitate
corals, some can spew water or perhaps a chemical out to make the
agitation stop. I was recently moving my corals and tank and
was pruning some Zoanthid polyps and while removing some of them from a
rock, I got "spewed" right in my eye. <Oh,
no> My eye is all red now and I am wondering what if any information
you can give me as to what this is or what I can and should do to
combat this. Thanks, as I do not want to go blind!-D <I
do not with to sound like an alarmist... and I suspect that you will be
just fine. But... get to a doctor promptly. Zoantharians have some of
the most potent toxins (including Palytoxin) known to man. More
commonly, there are issues with various bacteria simply from the
organic/biotic nature of it all. Concerns with Vibrio, mycobacterium.
etc. Please see your doctor promptly... take the antibiotics... and
later come back to WWM and read here (with both eyes<G>):
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/Wound.htm
best regards, Anthony>
Safe handling I would like to know how to safely
handle the sea cucumber Actinopyga agassizii. Thanks Jonathan <Best
with gloves, though can be handled bare-handed... just wash your hands
immediately afterward, and underwater, as in simply lifting the
specimen and placing it into a submersed bag/container (not lifting it
into the air). Bob Fenner>
Coral poison to humans? I know when you agitate corals, some
can spew water or perhaps a chemical out to make the agitation
stop. I was recently moving my corals and tank and was
pruning some Zoanthid polyps and while removing some of them from a
rock, I got "spewed" right in my eye. <Oh,
no> My eye is all red now and I am wondering what if any information
you can give me as to what this is or what I can and should do to
combat this. Thanks, as I do not want to go blind!-D <I
do not with to sound like an alarmist... and I suspect that you will be
just fine. But... get to a doctor promptly. Zoantharians have some of
the most potent toxins (including Palytoxin) known to man. More
commonly, there are issues with various bacteria simply from the
organic/biotic nature of it all. Concerns with Vibrio, mycobacterium.
etc. Please see your doctor promptly... take the antibiotics... and
later come back to WWM and read here (with both eyes
<G>):http://www.wetwebmedia.com/Wound.htm
best regards, Anthony>
Another Reason to Wear Gloves (9/12/04)
Hello, <Hi. Steve Allen with you tonight.> I have had a reef tank
for about a year. It is thriving. I recently set up a 2nd tank for a
friend following the same procedures I used on the first tank. The new
tank has live sand, well cured live rock, 3 mushrooms, a couple
different polyps, a hammer head frag from the first tank, and an
Alveopora also from the first tank. There is also a lawnmower blenny,
snails, hermit crabs, sand star, sea serpent star, a royal Gramma,
bicolor Dottyback, and an orange spotted shrimp goby. All inhabitants
are doing well and have been in there for over a month. There were two
clown fish in there but they both died. The water tests perfectly.
Additives and food include all in one, Kent Iodine, Sea Lab block,
Marine Deluxe, Zooplex, BioPlankton, Formula One (frozen), and silver
sides. The question is that I have painful and swollen fingers. After
about a week of this condition I went to the doctor and told her I had
a reef tank. She could find no other reason for the injury and put me
on antibiotics (Cipro). <I'm not certain that this covers
Mycobacterium marinum, which could be the source of your problem. Read
more about this in the wound FAQs. You might have your doctor look for
recent articles (appeared this year) about this in Annals of Internal
Medicine and The New England Journal of Medicine. I believe I
previously left references on the wound FAQ page.> I am seeing no
change in the condition and am wondering if you have heard or
experienced anything like this and what can be done about it. I have
been doing some research and ran across something called mycobacterium
marinum. <Yup, as above.> Some of what I am reading sounds like
hand infections can turn into a very serious problem. I am wondering if
this is common in the aquarium industry and what people do about it.
<Yes. Smart people wear gloves (long armed-ones are available at
local or online fish stores) to prevent it. The rest of us hope we
never get it. I can't claim to be among those who use gloves all
the time, but I try to remember. ;) It's like using a condom some
or "most" of the time--sooner or later something undesirable
happens. It is also possible that this is a local allergic or toxic
reaction to coral venom (also preventable with gloves), in which case
an OTC antihistamine like Claritin might help, but you need to consult
your doctor before taking this. Sounds like you need to go back right
away if the Cipro hasn't helped.> Both tanks are very clean and
meticulously maintained weekly by myself as well as a service
technician from my LFS. <This is no protection. Even a
"clean" tank is a veritable cesspool of germs. Remember, your
animals pee and poop (sorry, pediatrician talk) in it all the time,
Would you stick your bare hand in a "clean" toilet bowl? I
think not.> I would appreciate any advice you may have. <My
primary advice is to go back to the doc and be sure to mention M.
marinum and coral venom.> Thanks. <I hope this helps and I
certainly hope your hands return to normal quickly and
uneventfully.>
Zoanthid compatibility Hi, I recently
purchased a very nice yellow polyp rock which is very densely populated
with these beautiful Parazoanthids. But, I am very worried
about them because there is a brown polyp reaching around from the
underside of the rock which seems to have come in contact with a few of
the yellow polyps, as they are remaining closed. Is there
anything I can do to get rid of him? <Yes... most directly, chip off
the base where this polyp is attached and either move or remove it>
I'm extremely paranoid about the toxins produced by Zoanthids, as I
have a heart condition and may not fare well if exposed to something so
powerful. Do people die from this poison? <Mmm, some have
gotten very sickened> I've been searching the web
but I haven't found too much detail about these
guys. I've read many books but I have never heard that
these guys were poisonous until recently. thanks, Chris <Wear gloves
while handling... wash them before removing... Bob Fenner>
Zebra Danios With TB 12/05/2005 Hi, We have 10
gallon tank and have started the tank 4 months from now. We bought 3
Danios to start with, and they did very well for first 2.5-3 months. We
used to do weekly water change. Our local pet store suggested to not to
change water for first month to have fully cycled tank. We stopped the
water change. I am not sure if this is the cause or something else, but
we lost our smallest fish during this time. Rest two fishes has
lived fine for some time and they started slowing down. They used to
eat a lot and swim around in whole tank that is filled with natural
plants. They stopped eating with that eagerness. They stopped playing.
We noticed that their spine is also got curved. First we were
thinking that they are getting old. After reading FAQ section in your
website, we are scared about fish TB. I have been touching the
water to clean up the tank. Though I don't have any wounds, but
still I am scared and wanted to know what measure we can take to
diagnose if we got infected or not. About the fishes, now they both are
dull and during the night they lie down on the bottom of tank. Actually
till light is off mostly they lie down on the bottom. If light is on,
they try to swim. We can see they have hard time swimming. They most
stand still at one place. I have also read on internet somewhere that
when they are at the end of their life cycle, then also they develop
curve in their spine. So how do I know if my fishes have TB or they are
just old. In summary these are questions I have. 1) What measures can
we take to find out if we have infected ourselves with the fish TB?
< Fish TB is very very rare. If people were getting infected and it
was a problem I think you would see warnings all over the place. As a
precaution I just wash up after having my hands in an aquarium.>
<Rare in people, yes.... but I have seen many, many cases
in fish lately - many of which were Betta splendens....
-SCF> 2) how do I find out if my fish's spine is getting
curved because they are old or they have fish TB? < More than likely
your fish are getting old. Usually these little guys don't last
more than a couple of years tops and the contouring of the spine is one
of the signs of a fish getting older.> 3) In case of fish TB, how do
I sterilize the whole tank? Do we have to start from scratch for the
new fishes? < I think you fish may have gotten ill due to poor water
quality. Check the nitrates. The lower the better. These little guys
like clean well oxygenated water.-Chuck>
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