FAQs about the Business of Livestock
Cherry Pickers/Jobbers, Jobbering
Related Articles: Stocking a Business, Open Letter to the Trade re Quarantining
Livestock, Growing Reef Corals
For Profit, Pond Service
Business, Don't Sell
Non-Aquatic Plants!, Live Plants
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Raise & Market It, Compatible Marine
Species, Marine Fishes, Selection, Display in the
Industry, Damsels, Clownfishes, Hawkfishes,
Related FAQs: Livestock Business 1, Livestock Business 2, Livestock Business 3, & FAQs on:
Marine Wholesale, &
FAQs on: Wholesalers, Transshippers, Jobbers, & Sources For: FW Fish & Invert. Livestock, FW Plants, Pondfishes/Comets, Marine Algae, SW Invertebrates, SW Fishes, & From/By Source Countries, &
Facilities: Collecting Stations,
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Conventions, Moving
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Tridacnid Clam
Biz,
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Some Mentioned Here: AM4fish.com
FishHead: Sales@fishheadsinc.com
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Jobber Info...mainly mark ups, charges for services in
providing marine livestock selection 6/21/13
Hi Bob,
<David>
I have some questions on Jobbing that I hope you can answer as I
recently started my own jobbing business.
<Ah, congratulations!>
What is the average going rate for jobbing services currently? I've
heard numbers from as low as 10% all the way up to 35%.
<Mmm, well; don't know re current rates, but years back it was more like
ten... maybe another five from the wholesalers end... for volume, cash
paid up front>
I would imagine it being somewhere closer to 25-30% which is where I plan
on having my business at.
<Wow, fat! Or whatever goes as an exclamation of surprise nowayears>
I think a flat rate would be easiest and just absorb the credit card
processing fees (typically around 2.5 to 4%),
<Mmm... do make a deal w/ whomever you intend to deal with... to not pay
or charge these fees. Too much money... Instead, there's got to be a
level of trust, assurance... After all, I will tell you, unscrupulous
people can refuse to pay their credit card bills as well...>
any taxes, other fees, and expenses.
<These are hopefully ALL going to be pass through costs... your just
adding onto invoices. Trust me here; you don't want to become a/the
paper worker... slave>
The only additional cost I plan on passing on to my clients (the fish
stores) would be shipping costs. So far is my thinking correct?
<Thus far; though would mention that this might/should include local
delivery as well, if this is a cost to both of you. And if there's any
handling on your end, for re-bagging, oxygenating, changing out water...
there should be a box charge or such to cover this>
Also as for taking payment I am assuming I would do payment first,
product later.
<Mmm, well; good luck if you can develop and sustain this "A" position
as a provider and seller. IT really would be GREAT if this works out for
you>
Like take my payments in the middle of the week like Wednesday, and do my
jobbing on that coming Sunday through Tuesday. So far does this sound
correct?
<Mmm, well; again, times may have changed, but most businesses did not
pay up front for livestock in my day. Lines of credit (through banks),
wire transfers that "meet the shipment/s" in the middle, credit card
"holds" are about as good as it got in the sixties through early
nineties>
Any additional words of wisdom and incite would be greatly appreciated.
<Yeeikes! There's a bunch (days worth) we could go over... w/o knowing
what you already know this might be of not much worth to you. Do feel
free to write me anytime w/ specific questions, concerns>
Thank you for your time.
Sincerely,
David
<Certainly welcome; and again, congratulations on your new venture. Bob
Fenner>
Re: Jobber Info 6/21/13
Hi Bob,
<David>
Thank you for the quick response.
<Welcome>
That is interesting to hear that the older rates were 10-15%. I am
assuming when you say "pass-through costs" you mean my clients would
pay, correct?
<Yes>
Because I don't get how someone could make any money having to pay for
all the fees, expenses, etc at such a low rate. I guess my
thinking was have me pay all the random fees and costs, and just bump up
my overall cost to my clients (hence the 25 to 30% rate) and have a flat
rate.
<I don't think the market will bear this margin>
Some people I talked to said that 25-30% is fair and reasonable, while
another guy was shocked and said 15% was normal.
<Mmm, well, can, even needs to be figured forward and backward... the
net-landed-cost, probable mark ups, market/turn over, and factor for
cost of business, incidental mortality... from the collector or breeder
on out... Think on this... IF your charge is 30%, likely the organisms
will have to sell for fifty percent to a hundred percent more to the end
user/consumer>
To me having a flat rate would overall just make everything seem
simpler to me.
<One way to price something is indeed "what the market will bear"... I
do encourage you to be the previously alluded to "A" player... to sell
your services on quality and performance... not simply price. Question:
CAN you develop the customer base that will support such a mark up?>
That way my clients only see two or three numbers (Livestock cost, My
Rate, and possibly shipping/delivery).
The only other thing would maybe be a box charge if I decide to use my
own personal boxes, and not the wholesalers which would probably end up
being best since I don't think I really know if I want my
clients know where I am getting their livestock from as long as its
great quality.
<You will become expert at using a razor/box knife, cutting away all
such stickers>
As for taking payments. I think that me receiving my lump sum payment
from my clients first, then going to the wholesalers and buying the
livestock (minus my rate of coarse), then clients receive purchased
items.
<... The trade must be very different than my time... I don't
know of anyone who will pre-pay for livestock>
To me this doesn't sound any different than how it works when a consumer
buys any product online or even in a store. Money first, product later.
Is this wrong in my thinking?
<You're not Jeff Bezos/Amazon... what guarantee do people have that
you'll deliver?>
Plus I can't exactly afford to go out on a limb taking lines of credit
trusting that my client will pay it. While I trust my clients,
sometimes things happen.
<Yes>
Also I would want to be purchasing the stores fish and corals (and
possibly even the random little inverts). I don't want to make my
wholesale vendors feel as if I am just trying to clear them out of their
good coral.
Currently, I feel that Jobbers have a bit of a bad rep in the industry,
which is unfortunate.
<Some better, some...>
Granted I am sure some of them earned that reputation, but I would hope
to change that outlook.
<There is a saying... you're only as good as your last shipment... >
I feel that I could provide a valuable service to my clients (the fish
stores), the wholesalers, myself, and the hobby in general. I
want my business to be built on honesty and integrity.
<The only way to go>
Thank you again for your help.
Sincerely,
David
<Thank you for sharing. BobF>
Purchasing from Jobbers? 9/23/11
Hello.
<Hello Brook>
Thanks in advance for your help.
<You're welcome.>
I recently moved to an area where the local fish stores have a limited
selection of corals. I've always been of the of the mindset that
LFSs should be supported and I've always gone to them first when I
needed something, even if it meant spending a few extra dollars on an
item.
<I agree to a point, but I won't spend 30 dollars for a bucket
of salt I can get for 18 at an etailer.>
However, their coral selections are somewhat limited. A few people in
my area have recently started small businesses selling corals out of
their living room display tanks. In the past, where I've had access
to multiple LFSs, it's never been a problem finding what I needed.
Now, my only options are ordering online or submitting requests to my
LFS, which could take weeks.
<And you may or may not get what you want.>
What are your thoughts about purchasing from jobbers (is this the
correct term)?
<I call them etailers.>
Do they significantly take away sales from LFSs?
<Oh yes.>
Is it better to support someone local than to order online?
<My feelings stated above. I do buy all my livestock and food from
my LFS.>
Do they negatively affect the industry as a whole?
<I would say not, you are keeping some one employed somewhere in the
US.
A few LFSs around here have resorted to related ventures to bring more
money in.
Namely ponds and tank rental/maintenance contracts.>
Thanks
<You're welcome. James (Salty Dog)>
Re: Purchasing from Jobbers? 9/24/11
Thanks for your help.
<Welcome>
Sorry, but I just wanted to get my terms straight and reaffirm your
responses. Jobbers is the term I used to describe people that purchase
and resell coral
<Mmm, no; or at least not just this. Typically in this/our
ornamental aquatics trade and livestock supply in general, jobbers are
folks twixt wholesalers (who buy from collectors and breeders) and
penultimate sellers (retailers, etailers) and consumers... Jobbers
almost never have holding facilities, instead pre-selling and often
"break-packing" (subdividing orders) to service more than one
customer per order. Transhippers are something similar twixt
collectors/breeders and wholesalers.>
from their displays at home and sell locally (competing directly with
LFS). I thought e-tailers were people that used a web page or eBay to
sell their items.
<These are>
I'm trying to decide whether or not to purchase from a jobber. I
suppose, though, that the line between online retailers and jobbers is
blurring, aside from the larger retailers like LiveAquaria.
<Mmm, this outfit and its parent, Dr.s Foster and Smith, are
"smart enough"
to avoid buying livestock from other than the best wholesalers (plus a
modicum of corals they produce in-house. They DO NOT use jobbers. I
strongly encourage you to not do so either. There are scant guarantees
in our trade; none that can be enforced against jobbers>
Thanks for the clarification.
<Oh! I see JamesG was chatting this over w/ you. Will send this on
to him.
Bob Fenner, currently out w/ Walt Smith helping set up a new collecting
station in Fiji>
Your WWM Rocks! Looking for hand-selection service, marine
livestock 1/13/06 Thank you! Thank you! Thank you! I will be
contributing!!!! <Me too... daily> I have been sitting here for
the past three hours since I happened onto it & am
Loving every moment! <Wowzah!> Questions:
Several years back I was ran a successful Tank Rental & maintenance
Service north of San Francisco. I often drove to the SFO area &
hand selected my fish! Now finally eleven years
later as I get back into this business which is really what I have
wanted to do for so long as it is "what I Love" I
am a bit lost? I have kept up on most everything as I own several
systems myself but all the places I used to buy fish from are long gone
and all my research directs me to Los Angeles ( Sea
Dwelling.. Underwater.. & Quality etc.... ) Are you aware of Anyone
up here still holding , importing or distributing marine fish?
<Yes> #2 If not would you suggest hiring someone to hand select
fish for us or just trust the machine & have shipments sent to us
blind? <Mmm, there are such selection services still about...>
Also any recommendations of specific companies which have ethical
practices or are best to deal with! <The three companies you mention
I am very familiar with... are excellent> I know this has been
answered before but, it has been a couple years & maybe your advice
has altered? <No my friend... same folks/friends involved... still
honest, competent>> My Sincere Thanks, Jonathan Comras TDP <My
similar welcome. Bob Fenner> Mmmm, have you tried Fish Heads? What
are you looking for specifically? BobF> Good morning Bob: I am
looking for fish exclusively. Thanks, Jonathan <Mmm, I would try
Fish Heads... or make a firm deal with someone specifically at WM, SDC,
UWW to hand-pick yours... BobF>
Statute (perhaps height?)
limitations, retail ad. campaign idea to share, selection service
sought for marines 5/2/06 Hello Mr. Fenner
Crazy to think that someone of you statute will
be actually corresponding with me! :) :) <Heeee!>
couple of things... but before background... am a LFS worker/manager in
a salt only store. 1) For the summer time slumps my
company does a "frequent fliers club card" every $10 spent on
livestock gets customers 1 stamp after 20 stamps $20 off any live
stock... keeps profit margins and keeps customers coming back for more
... stamps that is :):) maybe pass it along. <Neat. Will do> 2)
My employer is currently seeking a cherry picker as the companies that
we have been dealing with for 12+ years is not meeting the standards of
our competition ... any personal contact info would be appreciated
sincerely Brian Borate <Mmm... do you know
the folks at Fish Heads? Bob Fenner>
Re: Marine livestock selection services
5/2/06 We do business with fish heads and they seem nice and
selection is decent but not really as nice as a lot of things we see
online and at other stores. If you do know someone if I can be picky Id
like someone who deals with MAC certified stock. Love the
boxes from F.H. thanks for the quick response... Brian <Do you buy
from Quality Marine? PAF? UWW? Bob Fenner>
Re: Marine livestock selection services - 5/2/2006 our
main wholesalers are Under water world, Exotic reef Imports, Sea
Dwelling, Fish heads, ORA. Don't know who PAF or quality marine are
Ill look them up but just in case can you send some contact
info? thank you so much Bob and not just a simple
thanks a real one! :) Brian <Mmm, both companies have
websites... are located off of 104th near LAX... both good outfits. Bob
Fenner>
Good to meet you at MACNA Bob, it was a pleasure to finally
speak with you. I hear you are quite the networking type.
<Yes... beats working, as the saying goes> I need to start
networking more. We have sold to wholesalers for the past seven years,
and this last year we have slowly been switching over to supplying
retail stores. <A tough, but necessary step...> Since we
haven't done any real marketing, we could use any suggestions you
might have. <Oh boy! Talk about letting the genie out of the
bottle!> Article, web site, etc.... We would like to start getting
our name out there. <Mmm, let's meet up at your place... and
chat re at least me doing a "pro" (as in for the good) piece
about you, your biz... have done these for a while for the hobby and
trade mag.s here and abroad... You can see a few posted on our root
web: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/> We currently get all of our
customers through referrals and are looking to expand our client
base. <Referrals are best, period... I feel so strongly re
this, that I'd suggest you put your efforts into calling existing
customers and ask for more referrals... rather than any other
effort...> But not to the extent were we can't process a quality
product humanely. We are not trying to be the biggest, but just known
for having quality product. <Good for you, the trade, hobby,
planet> We are looking for key stores, which are concerned more with
quality rather than price. <There's a bunch> If you have any
leads, I would be very appreciative. If there is anything I can ever
help or do for you, please don't hesitate to ask. <Maybe a pic
or two... like I say, will come by... am due to swing by Rob
Miller's new digs (ERI) as they go up... and do make it past Dana
about once, twice a month... When's good? Bob Fenner> Sincerely,
Mark Lamont (Fish Heads)
About your articles Dear Bob, <Hello Wendy> My name is
Wendy Legeret and I live in Iron Mountain, Michigan. In
June, more likely July of this year, I am will be opening up a tropical
fish store to hobbyists and businesses. If I'm not
mistaken, I saw on your website articles pertaining to stocking a
business like mine. However, when I went to click on the
article, all that came up was the title. Is there another
way to read your articles or can I find them in a magazine of some
sort? <Mmm, maybe not written (and the
"article" page being used as a "place-marker"), but
perhaps just not placed yet. Can you give me the exact location (the
URL) of what you're looking for?> I am really looking for both
marine and fresh fish suppliers. My competition in the past
has told me that no fish supplier, especially marine, will go beyond
Green Bay, Wisconsin, which is about two hours south of my
location. I need to have a supplier that will come further
than Green Bay, obviously!!! <Mmm, if your business volume warrants
it, you are likely looking at ordering from marine livestock
wholesalers (or "jobbers"... i.e. intermediates who hand-pick
such and forward) who will ship to your nearest airport... and possibly
a freight forwarding company in concert. These businesses are centered
around major international airports (Los Angeles, Chicago, Miami, New
York...)> If you can point me in the right direction or if you can
help me out in any way, I would be most grateful. <Please see our
aquatics business links page:
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/AqBizSubWebIndex/bizlinkspg.htm there
are listed, linked a few of the major suppliers (in the middle
row...)> Thank you so much! Wendy Legeret Wendy's Blue Lagoon
http://www.wendysbluelagoon.com
<Congratulations on your new store and welcome to our trade. Bob
Fenner>
Cherry Picker in LA? Hi Bob, We spoke about
two weeks ago at the Desert Marine Society in
Phoenix. You're presentation was excellent, and so was
the beer, I think. You had mentioned the name of a
cherry picker in LA that you recommended to some of the other LFS's
but I must have missed it. I'm looking for the best, and
willing to pay a premium to get good inverts. I'd
really appreciate it if you could give me a shove in the right
direction. Thank you very much, Brian Mihlfeith
Ocean Art Aquariums Phoenix, AZ <Howdy, and
sorry re the delay in responding (just back from a trip). Do try:
AM4fish.com and chat with Erik, Oh, and the fine fellows at FishHead:
Sales@fishheadsinc.com Bob Fenner>
Re: starting up a store <<Cheers, Matthew... Anthony
Calfo below you in Pennsylvania following up with Bob's cc
here>> > Also, we are located in Connecticut, and
over the years I have become very friendly with some local shops, but
still am not totally certain as to what method I want to go about
stocking my tanks. My concern is that I want to stock the
tanks by reducing the stress on the fish as much as
possible. By any chance, would you know of any good local
fisheries or markets in the Connecticut area that are easily accessible
to a starting business? > <Unfortunately no. But will ask Anthony
here if he is familiar with any, and will post on WWM in the hope
someone will respond> <<several points to make here... briefly
regarding your intent to reduce stress of initial stocking of tanks, do
be sure to use a generous amount of cured live rock for invertebrate
tagged marine systems... and for fish only marine and freshwater
filters, perhaps consider "supercharging" them in advance
with Ammonium Chloride. Its inexpensive and easy to do... easy to
manipulate too - it will let you start a seeded biological filter and
race it up to a strong colony just prior to stocking with fishes. I
recall seeing Moe describe it in his classic Marine Aquarium
References... and am sure recipes exist for it on the Net. It really is
as simple as it (might) sound: feeding a bunch of ammonia to a filter
prior to putting it online for a fish load. As to the regional
suppliers... you have some challenges here. If you don't have
direct flights (and I suspect not) to your nearest airport from Los
Angeles, then you will be at least slightly compromised as to the
quality and availability of livestock you can get. I would strongly
suggest you get a jobber (fish picker) here to select your orders on
site in LA from the best available stock. The other challenge is that
there are no significant distributors of wholesale marines in our
region until you get down to New York and New Jersey. And frankly, they
are not that good IMO. You would be better served by getting product
first hand from the primary port of entry for most US marine tropicals:
Los Angeles. With that said, you might also look into a Chicago
supplier (there are several... like A-Pet) if you can get better
flights to CT than from LA. And has Bob has suggested... please start
shopping the trade shows to get your feet wet and to network. We have
the HH Backer Shows in Atlantic City and Chicago twice yearly. Also
subscribe to a trade magazine like Pet Business or Pet Age to begin or
finish your business plan. And last of all... be sure to write that
business plan! Your chance at success will be greatly improved. Make
your life easy and purchase some software like Business Plan Pro to do
this. Some local business schools also often offer free counsel to
local small business for start-up (classes and consultations... help
writing biz plans, etc). Best of luck, Anthony> <Thank you
Antoine. Bob>