RES turtle compatibility and care questions 8/14/10
Hi this is Sonal from Mumbai...
<Hi Sonal,>
I have 2 res turtles now..{male-female pair}
about their age, both of them r less than a year.. she is younger to him by 3 months..
my male turtle acts as if he wants to scratch the face out of my female turtle..
She's larger than he is..he wiggles his finger nails towards her cheeks(I mean the area near her eyes) with both his hands.. it looks as if she's getting hurt by this action.. she takes her head inside her shell n closes her eyes in the beginning... n later on she comes out n pushes him away..
but just a few days earlier found HER doing the same thing, the same way he was doing... I don't understand what kind of behavior is this n what for??
[are they getting matured or something..or is it related to the mating thing!!]
I would really appreciate if you could tell me more about this behavior..(so that I understand them better..)
also could u tell me about how to keep their shell clean,'coz sometimes it really stinks..[I clean the tank everyday..]
Thanks a lot for your help..'coz every time I mail u,u ppl always help..
<Sonal, we'd be happy to answer your questions, but can you first please write us back and give us some additional information?>
<First, about your tank set-up and care? i.e.:
1) # gallons of your tank
2) what type of heating and lighting bulbs you are using
3) what, if anything, you're providing for a basking platform
4) temperature of air above the basking platform
5) temperature of water
6) what, if any, type of filtration you're using
7) what you're feeding your turtles.>
<Next, sexual maturity is best determined by size, not actual age. Can you measure the length of each of your turtles' top shells? Hold a straight edge ruler above their top shell; don't follow the curve of their shell.)
<Also, re: shell - Can you provide us more information about your turtle's shell? i.e. Are any parts of the shell soft, either underneath or on top? Are there any whitish patches anywhere? Is it in any other way discolored?>
<Also, when you write back, can you please also do us a favor and replace your *txt* words with the proper full words and make complete sentences (capitalize 1st letter of sentence, use a period at end of sentences, spaces between sentences, etc.) We ask this because these FAQs get stored and become part of the website's *reference library*. Using properly spelled whole words and complete sentences makes it easier for others to later search for and find this information on our website, as people typically use whole words and/or phrases to conduct their searches.>
Thanks a ton..
<Thank you, Sonal. Please write back and give us more specifics about your turtles, your care and your tank set up so we can better help you and answer your questions.>
<Wet Web Media crew>

Re RES Turtle compatibility, shell concerns and general care 8/18/10
Hi.. Sonal again..
<Hi, Sonal, this is Sue here with you.>
I am sending you photographs of my tank so that you get a better idea about it. The first photograph shows the amount of water (I don't know how to measure it in gallons!) & the other one shows the basking area.
<Thanks for sending us photos, Sonal! It's very helpful to have photos along with the description.>
Tank set-up and care:
<Thank you for also writing back with additional information about your set-up. This really helps us to better advise you. From your responses, I see what some of your problems might be. I'll briefly comment on each of these items below in this email, and then give you more complete feedback and recommendations in the original email you sent which had your actual questions and concerns.>
1) # gallons of your tank= approx 3 liters
<3 liters is approximately equivalent to under 1 (U.S.) gallon. If this is true, Sonal, this is WAY too small a tank for even ONE turtle. It's one of, if not THE main reason why your two turtles are having problems getting along. It's also not good for other reasons. See more about this at the end.>
2) What type of heating and lighting bulbs you are using = I don't use any type of heating, direct sunlight from the window (but since its rainy season here, there's no sunlight).
<Neither of these are adequate. Turtles need basking heat for their bodies to function properly, and they need regular, consistent UVB light for their shell and bone health. You're going to need to make some changes here right away.>
3) What, if anything, you're providing for a basking platform = shown in the picture.
<A couple of questions for you here -- can you write back and tell me --
'¢ Can both of your turtles get up on this rock without any difficulty?
'¢ How often do both of them bask on it? (i.e., every day, every other day??)
'¢ How many hours each day are they out basking on it?>
4) Temperature of air above the basking platform = normal room temperature about 25 degrees C (equivalent to 77 degrees F).
<Nowhere near warm enough. Turtles require much warmer basking heat than 25 degrees C. Unlike us, their bodies/organs rely on the external temperature of the air to function properly, including properly digesting their food. See more about this below.>
5) Temperature of water = normal room temperature (sometimes I add lukewarm water, especially in the winters)
<Turtles like cool water (this is what encourages them to get out to bask which they need to do), so this part is fine, assuming your normal room temperature is around 20-22 degrees C (68-72 degrees F). However, I'm concerned that your aquarium is located next to a window. More on this at the end.>
6) What, if any, type of filtration you're using = I clean the tank every day -- no filtration.
<Depending on how/what you're doing to keep the water clean, this may or may not be adequate -- especially given how little water is in your tank. The less amount of water there is, the more concentrated and toxic it becomes from food, poop and other debris left in it until your next cleaning.>
7) What you're feeding your turtles = a little amount of the turtle food, dried prawns and some small balls of wheat dough (its their favorite), boiled egg white (another favorite), coriander leaves (only the male turtle eats), cabbage leaves, sometimes boiled chicken or fish pieces, and blood worms (very occasionally).
<This is not a healthy diet for your turtles, and likely another part of the problem you're having. If not already, they will become malnourished and ill if you continue to give them this type of food. This also needs to be corrected right away.>
size: male: 8cm (approx. 3 in.) in length and 6.5cm (approx. 2 ½ in.) in breadth
female: 9 cm (approx. 3 ½ in.) and 7.5cm (approx. 3 in.) respectively
<To your original question, neither are sexually mature yet. Males typically start reaching sexual maturity when their top shell (carapace) length is about 4'; females start to reach maturity a little later than males, at around 6' long. See later on below how this relates to your question about their behaviors toward each other.>
The female turtle's shell was a little soft (some parts); now I think its fine, but still not as strong as that of my male turtle. No other problems with the shell.
<A shell that has been, and still is, soft in spots is a sign that your turtle has a metabolic illness, specifically a calcium deficiency that's causing her body to instead have to remove calcium that's already stored in her shell and bones in order to perform its other functions. The shells and bones then start to become soft from the loss of calcium. This condition (as well as the diet/environmental factors that caused it) needs to be addressed right away, otherwise it can lead to much more serious illness and even death.>
Thank you.
<Your welcome, Sonal. Please read my responses now to the questions and concerns you sent us in your original email.>
Hi this is Sonal from Mumbai...
I have 2 RES (red-eared slider) turtles now (male-female pair). About their age, both of them are less than a year. She is younger than him by 3 months. My male turtle acts as if he wants to scratch the face out of my female turtle. She's larger than he is. He wiggles his finger nails towards her cheeks (I mean the area near her eyes) with both his hands. It looks as if she's getting hurt by this action. She takes her head inside her shell and closes her eyes in the beginning. And later on she comes out and pushes him away. But just a few days earlier, I found HER doing the same thing, the same way he was doing. I don't understand what kind of behavior is this, and what for?? Are they getting mature or something? Or is it related to the mating thing!! I would really appreciate if you could tell me more about this behavior (so that I understand them better).
<As I mentioned above, both of your turtles are still on the small side to be displaying mating behaviors. And, they're also still on the small side yet to know for sure what sex they really are. From their tail sizes it does appear your larger one might be a female, but it could also be the angle of your camera so I can't tell for sure. Also, the more accurate way to know is by looking UNDER their tails. So -- either one of two things are happening:
1. You DO in fact have a male and a female. If this is the case, as you might expect with the male species (ha!), males sometimes get an early start, and can exhibit this behavior toward females before either one is sexually mature. What also happens sometimes is that mating behavior leads to aggression. This typically happens when either:
'¢ the male is trying to mate with an immature female (and the female becomes agitated and aggressive in response) or --
'¢ when the male gets more and more aggressive trying to *persuade* the female, hoping that his repeated advances will eventually work -- again, not much different than in the human species! Normally, in nature the male wouldn't likely put this much *pressure* on one female, as he would have other females to try to pursue.
2. It's also possible that you actually have 2 males and they're growing at different rates. It often happens that 1 turtle becomes the dominant one, gets more of the food, and grows faster. If this is the case, sometimes, for whatever reason, when no female is around, males will exhibit this behavior with each other. Because males often compete with one another, each of them may also be trying to assert their dominance toward one another, and becoming aggressive with each other, particularly since you have them in such close confines with each other. Which leads me to --- >
<What's even further adding to the problem of aggression in either case above is that your tank is WAY too small. It's even too small for just one of your turtles. And for 2 turtles, it's not allowing them anywhere to go to hang out by themselves and escape from one another as they would normally be able to do in nature. Having to live/exist almost on top of each other as they are now is causing both of them a LOT of stress -- REGARDLESS of what sex they are. By nature, they prefer being alone. They also like to be able to swim and move freely about, not just sit in the water, especially right next to other turtles.>
<So -- you need to act on this now before one of them becomes seriously injured. Especially given that one of your turtles is already getting hurt by your other turtle's actions. You have a couple of choices here. Either:
1. Separate them in two different tanks (that are both much larger than the one you have now -- see the end of this message for how to determine what size you need). Keep in mind that if one of them is a female, you may need to keep her in a separate tank until she is big enough/mature enough to mate with him, which could be at least 2 or more years away still!
2. Put them in an even LARGER enclosure with separate basking areas and hidden areas to get away from, and out of sight of the other. Some pet stores even sell partitions that you can place in a tank. This option would be less expensive for you than buying 2 tanks and set-ups. But it DOES require you to get a much larger tank than Option 1. And unless you do use a partition, this option also may not work. If it doesn't, you'll need to consider other options, including getting another (mature) female turtle to take the *pressure* off the one (again, if you DO in fact have a male and female right now), or to separate the two of them into 2 tanks (back to the 1st option).>
Also, could you tell me how to keep their shells clean, because sometimes they really stink. I clean the tank everyday.
< A healthy shell should be hard and have no odor to it at all. The odor is a sign that there might be some sort of infection brewing. Fungus and bacteria often seize the opportunity to take advantage of a shell that's debilitated. You mentioned in your 2nd email above that one of your turtle's has had/still has some soft spots on it. Soft shell is one of the conditions that can cause a shell to deteriorate and become more susceptible to infection. And, as I noted above, soft shell in and of itself, can lead to much more serious illness. So both of these conditions need to be addressed immediately (as well as the dietary and environmental factors that caused them).>
<Things that cause a turtle's shell to slowly deteriorate and soften (otherwise known as *Soft shell*), include improper diet/lack of calcium in the diet (as I described above), and not enough UVA and UVB lighting (what you get from the sun or from an artificial light source). UVA and UVB light helps turtles make the vitamins they need for their shell and bone health. Soft shell is also called Metabolic Bone Disease and left untreated becomes 100% fatal.>
<Causes of shell rot/infections include inadequate diet, improper lighting and heating temperatures (both basking and water), and poor water quality.>
<So here is what you need to do right away:
1. Remove (and separate) both of your turtles from your tank and place them each in a separate warm, dry container. Bacteria and fungus thrive in warm, wet environments and will seize the opportunity to take over and make an already debilitated turtle even sicker. You MUST provide them with a heat source (to keep air around 85-87 degrees F or about 30 degrees C), and you also MUST provide them with both a UVA AND especially a UVB source. They should remain in this environment around the clock except for putting each of them in a shallow container of water each day to eat, drink and poop. Below is a link to an article that explains exactly how to do this.
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/FWSubWebIndex/treating%20RES%20Dis%20DarrelB.htm
2. Keep your turtles in this environment for the amount of time specified under the 'Soft Shell' section of this guide, and until you make the needed changes to their regular living environment.
3. In particular, carefully read over the sections of this article describing Isolation, Soft Shell, and Notes 1 (about proper diet) and Notes 2 (about proper lighting).
4. Follow the treatment steps listed under the Soft Shell section of this same guide, which include isolation (in #1 above) and calcium treatments. Ideally, it would be best if you could find a herp or reptile vet to administer the calcium to your female turtle in an injectible form. Failing this, besides the other sources mentioned in the link above, I have had good success with Rep-Cal Phosphorous-Free Calcium with Vitamin D. It comes in a powder form. I add a pinch of it to pellets that have been pre-softened in a small amount of water.
5. Read the following additional link, compare each step of your care to the guidelines listed here, and make the necessary adjustments.
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/FWSubWebIndex/RESCareBarton.htm
6. In particular, fix the things that are most likely causing your turtles to have shell problems and calcium deficiencies:
1. Correct the diet you're feeding them. This is going to come as bad news to your turtles, but you need to stop feeding them wheat dough, boiled egg white, dried prawns, chicken, etc.! None of these foods are part of their natural diet, and it's not providing them with the correct balance of vitamins and nutrients they need. At least 50% of your turtle's diet, even at this young age, should be vegetarian and greens based; as adults that bumps up to 75%. The items listed below are ALL you need to feed them! (The diet is actually the easiest part!):
* A high quality pellet such as ReptoMin or a high quality Koi pellet. Especially right now I'd recommend soaking them in water until they soften, then adding a pinch of calcium powder as mentioned above and mix in well. (Note: only feed them pellets once every OTHER day, and ONLY as much as each of them will eat in 5-10 minutes. One of the most common mistakes people make with turtles is to overfeed. This can also lead to diseases).
* An earthworm (No bloodworms) every week or so for some additional Vitamin A which they also need.
* If you want to add some fiber and give them something to munch on in between feedings, rather than cabbage leaves or coriander; substitute dandelion leaves (some grocery stores actually carry this), red leaf and curly green leaf lettuces (no iceberg lettuce, though). What I did was buy a clip with a suction cup from my pet store to hold the greens in place so they stay in one place and are easier to clean up. Just replace with fresh greens as needed.
Now, it's very possible your turtles are not going to be *thrilled* with this change -- as most anyone wouldn't be on Day #1 of a *Diet*! So don't get concerned if you don't see them rushing to eat these things right away. Just give them time, they'll adjust. If you're still having difficulty getting them to switch over in the next couple of weeks, write back and I can give you some additional tips. Just make sure they get the calcium they need right now, though.
2. Provide correct basking temperature and basking conditions. It is essential that your turtles spend several hours each day basking -- and in the right conditions. Your turtles need:
* Easy access to a basking area. If they're having trouble climbing onto the basking area you're providing, you'll need to switch this with something else. The one I use and would recommend is the Zoo Med floating turtle dock. It comes in different sizes.
* Proper water and air temperatures: a CLEAR choice between cool water and warm air. This is what encourages them to get out to bask every day as they should. They should be spending several hours each day out of the water completely drying off, heating up, and soaking in the UVB rays.
* A heat bulb above their basking area. The air above your turtles' basking areas needs to be MUCH warmer than what you're currently providing. It should be around 88-90 degrees F (31-32 degrees C). Unlike us, turtles need to get this heat from outside their bodies to properly digest their food. Otherwise it will rot in their stomach and eventually cause them to become seriously ill.
* A UVB light bulb, also above their basking area (see below).
3. Fix the lighting conditions: Sunlight through a window pane or screen is not adequate for UVA/UVB. And direct sunlight into a tank runs the risk of making the air too hot and baking them. Given you live in a seasonal climate and can't have them exposed to direct sunlight outside all year long, either, it's best then to provide them with a good quality artificial UVB light that will give them a consistent source of UVA/UVB all year long (UVB automatically provides UVA but not the other way around). This light needs to be placed directly above their basking area. More is written about this in the care link above.
4. Fix any water quality issues. You didn't mention exactly how you're keeping the water clean, but here are some suggestions:
* Turtles are much messier than fish and require even better filtration than they do. I would highly advise you to get a very good mechanical filter that is rated several times more than the amount of water in your tank.
* Water changes can be cut back to 50% water changes every week once your filter gets established (after about a month or so).
* Periodically test your water for ammonium and nitrite before your water changes.
* Suction up/vacuum up food and poop immediately after they're done; don't let it sit around until your water change.
* Until you get a filter, consider feeding your turtles in a separate container of shallow water. This will help cut back on the waste in the water.>
<Some other things I would strongly recommend:
* Do not place your turtles' tanks next to a window. Besides the concern about heat and lighting fluctuations, there is also the risk in the wintertime of your turtles getting exposed to drafts in the air. This is one of the main causes of turtles coming down with respiratory infections, which can also become serious and often fatal. I would instead place their tanks in an interior part of the room or some place where they won't be exposed to cool air drafts.
* As I mentioned above, your current tank size is much too small, even for just one turtle. Turtles like to have lots of room (especially surface area more than depth) to swim about. As I noted above, there are several problems with a small enclosure. Small amounts of water fluctuate much more with outside air temperatures, making it much harder to control, regulate, and keep water temperature within a constant range. It also makes it much harder to maintain good water quality because leftover food and waste is much more toxic in smaller amounts of water. The general rule on size of tanks for turtles is 10 gallons (38 liters) per 1 inch (2 ½ cm.) of shell length. Right now each of your turtles should be in approximately a 30 gallon or 114 liter tank. Eventually, they will need a MUCH larger tank. If in fact you do have a female, she can grow to as much as 12 inches (30 cm.) long; males also can get large, up to around 10 inches (25 cm.) The good news is that *larger* doesn't have to mean expensive. The link above that I gave you to the care guide describes other options for enclosures that don't cost a lot of money.>
Thanks a lot for your help -- because every time I mail you, you people always help.
<I hope we helped again this time, Sonal! Please write back and let us know how things are going.>
Thanks a ton.
<You're welcome!>