Chain loach and Cherry Barb? (salt tolerance question)    11/14/12
Hi Neale,
<Jill,>
I'm wanting to start up chain loaches and cherry barbs.
<Two very nice and versatile species.>
I read your article on loaches,
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ca/volume_6/volume_6_2/loaches.htm
I read other articles too at various sites and I asked this question at several fish stores.  There was a difference in opinions.
<Indeed?>
I heard the loaches (chain loach) don't tolerate salt, though one article and one fish store said theirs tolerated minimal salt.  But since they are saying something different from everyone else, I figure I should get your opinion and trust that first. 
<Depends what sort of salinity you're talking about. Like all freshwater fish, they will tolerate very low salinities, around 2 gram/litre, across short terms, e.g., a week or two, for the purposes of treating Whitespot.
Using salinity in this way is much safer than using copper- or formalin-based medications. On the other hand, routine addition of salt isn't necessary when keeping these or any freshwater fish, and elevated salinity levels as you'd need for brackish water fish will stress most loaches. One or two species naturally inhabit brackish water habitats, for example the Horseface Loach, and can do well around the 3-4 g/l salinity level, but I'm not aware of any loach that prefers brackish water or does well in even middling-salinity brackish water. Oh, and the idea that loaches are "scaleless fishes" and therefore more sensitive to salt is a myth perpetrated by folks without biology degrees! Moray eels are fish without scales but live in the sea, as are of course sharks. On the other than, there are plenty of fish with scales (such as Rift Valley cichlids) that come to obvious harm when salt is routinely added to their tanks (Malawi Bloat being the commonest problem). Salinity tolerance is all to do with the osmoregulation, in particular organs that conserve or remove salt and water. For sure some groups of fish are less tolerant of salt than others, but it's not as easy as simply saying that if the fish has scales, it's more tolerant of salt.>
I have a 29 gallon....I'm switching the fish that are there to another one as they neither eat snails nor share water type with those that do!  
Currently the 29 tank has 1 tbsp aquarium salt per 5 gallons.  
<An unnecessary addition.>
Could the Cherry barbs tolerate that amount initially?  I suspect they will but I just want to be sure.
<As with the loaches, so too with the cyprinids. A handful of barbs tolerate low-end brackish conditions indefinitely, such as the Ticto Barb and Olive Barb, but most are strictly freshwater fish and shouldn't be exposed to salt across the long term. Again, short term usage of 2 g/l salinity levels are fine.>
I will change a third of the water, adding more water with no salt before I add them.
<Very wise.>
How many water changes should I do before the water will be fresh enough to add chain loaches? 
<One tablespoon is 3 teaspoons, or about 3 x 6 = 18 gram salt (but check with your own kitchen scales). 5 US gallons is about 19 litres, so you're adding 18 grams of salt to about 19 litres of water, so barely 1 gram per litre. That's a trivial salinity level, and won't do even these fish any harm across the short term. On the other hand, it won't be doing much good either; it's too little to treat Whitespot, and there's always the risk that across months, years such usage of salt can interfere with the osmoregulation of freshwater fish. I'm not a big fan of routine use of salt in freshwater tanks.>
Do Cherry Barbs cycle ok, as I don't have very many fish in there now, plus they're tiny?  (I'll be adding 6 so it will probably cycle.)  I'm hoping to find small ones.
<Cherry Barbs are quite hardy, so all else being equal, they can get through the cycling process, though I'd strongly recommend maturing the tank beforehand, or at least adding some live biological media from another tank.>
I plan to add driftwood too, and more plants once I add the chain loaches. 
The reason for the switch is I learned the hard way about snails. So future plants in other tanks that I wish to keep clean will either be certified snail free (yeah, PetSmart sells those!) or rinsed in a solution.
<Do the latter; dip the plants, then put in the tank. Be careful with the dips though: used at high concentration as a dip, potassium permanganate at least can kill plants if used for too long.>
Also, is it really necessary to change water weekly for chain loaches?!??
<Depends entirely on stocking density and how often the fish are fed. If the tank is understocked and you feed sparingly, then you can probably go 2-3 weeks between 20% water changes. But most community tanks are fully stocked, if not overstocked, so water changes are crucial to keeping the fish healthy.>
I'll be adding more plants, a longer strip of a bubbler, and there will be 6 each cherry barb and 6 chain loaches in 29 gallons.
<That's an understocked tank.>
I usually change water every 3 weeks.  Should I change to weekly or every 2 weeks?
<If you want. Keep an eye on the fish, and do pH and nitrate tests every couple weeks just to be sure, at least for the first 2-3 months. If pH drops a lot, or nitrate is way above the ambient level in your tap water, then you may be doing too few water changes.>
One more thing... Sometimes the house temp gets to 79 or 80, is that going to make the water too hot?
<Unlikely. Evaporation tends to keep fish tanks a bit cooler than the room.
In any event, providing the tank only gets warm in the day, but cools down at night, then these are tropical fish after all and will adapt to such things.>
I probably need to lower the heater for the loaches.  I can barely read the thermometer but it's in the green safe zone for tropical fish.
<Set the heater around the 24 C/75 F mark, and see what happens. If the fish are heat-stressed, the loaches will gulp air and the barbs will be close to the surface all the time.>
Thanks Neale!  I'm very new to this hobby, and your articles are always helpful.
<Thanks for the kind words. Cheers, Neale.>
Re: Chain loach and Cherry Barb? (salt tolerance question)
Thank you.  Great info!
<Welcome.>
I look forward to getting these fish.  The male barbs have a nice colour
<As ever though, be sure to get as many females as males, if not more -- with more females to display to, the males develop better colours without fighting all the time. Unlike plain vanilla barbs, Cherry Barbs are somewhat territorial.>
and I've always liked the little chain loaches.  They're active and interesting.  I hope they all get along without bullying.
<Cheers, Neale.>
Re: Chain loach and Cherry Barb? (salt tolerance question)    11/17/12
Just curious, Neale, About Mollies I'd heard this answer is "no," and that they're NOT a sociable fish, that they merely "tolerate" other fish due to not being true schoolers.....(I've misplaced that article). But then I saw an article today that you'd written on them that begs to differ on their sociability: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/fwsubwebindex/mollies.htm
The pet store clerks also speak highly of molly sociability. And their tanks are heavily stocked.  But here I'm thinking of going to loach and barb due to that my mollies were so unfriendly. Would increasing the number of mollies make them less inclined to bully?!??!!
<Yes indeed. Like cichlids, if the Molly males are numerous, none can become overly dominant, and none will be bullied too much. That's the theory anyway, and on the whole, it works, as you've likely seen in your retailer's tank. It's when you have one male Molly and he chases all the other livebearers around that people realise how aggressive male Mollies can be. Furthermore, if you keep just a pair, then unless the tank is large and well-planted, chances are the male will harass the female endlessly.>
1st I understocked them.  I had 5 females and 1 male in a 29 gallon, then I added a female, then I added a male.
<Two males will create a dominance structure, with the strongest male likely chasing the other all the time. But if you had, say, 5 males, then this isn't likely to happen. On the other hand, if you wanted females as well, then you'd have to have 10 females to those 5 males, and that's a lot of fish for the average community tank (though as the heart of a Molly aquarium around the 55 gallon mark, they'd be lovely).>
I had thought I was doing good to have a low stock. The bullying was primarily done by females, and it would leave the weaker ones cowering in a cave or behind the many plants looking ill.
<It's unusual for females to be aggressive, but I guess it does happen.>
I became known as the lady who'd bring mollies back in a day or so and I'd trade them. Once I even tried having 3 males to 3 females as an experiment....and it was no better.  (A pet store clerk suggested that!)
((( Off topic-  Also, if one's water is quite hard like an 8, it's still advisable to do low end brackish, correct?)))
<Hmm… "8" what? 8 degrees dH is not especially hard. What's the carbonate hardness? If that's high as well, say, 5-8 degrees KH, and the pH stays around the 7.5 to 8 mark, then you might be fine without salt. Nonetheless, I'd always choose Molly companions that I knew could tolerate salt, just in case you needed to use it because the Mollies were always getting sick. Horseface Loaches, Brown Hoplo Catfish, Ticto Barbs, Blue Acara and most Rainbowfish are examples of fish that don't need salt but will tolerate 2-3 grammes per litre without complaint, and this can be just enough to keep Mollies hearty and healthy.>
I was going to switch species and see if using driftwood and heavily planting would bring it to steady 7.5 for changing over to the loaches and rosy barbs...and if that didn't work then I was thinking to try peat filtration and have diamond tetras and rummy nose if that worked, what the heck anyway if it's that much trouble--have the sparkly beauties!!!
<Both Diamonds and Rummynose Tetras are lovely fish, but as you realise, not good companions for Mollies. While you don't need to go out of your way to create very soft water for them, you certainly do want to be aiming for between 2-12 degrees dH, pH 6-7.5 for them.>
But I love the mollies, and the only reason I'm switching from them was I didn't enjoy the evil junior high schoolyard scenes they put on daily!  (Which altered their health).  (True, my water had been salted according to popular Mollie lore, and I understand now I must use marine salt if I do them again.)
<Hmm… do also research Liberty Mollies (Poecilia salvatoris). They are extremely pretty fish, silvery with red, white and blue markings, but a mean disposition, so not good community fish. But in large groups they work well together, and if you feel like trying something special with Mollies, they're great fish. Oh, and do also look at Ameca splendens, a Goodeid with lovely colours and a very feisty personality, but in a group of 3 males and 5-6 females, I had not the least trouble in a 180-litre aquarium. My point is, livebearers are more aggressive than people realise, so big groups help.>
Thanks again...   if you tell me a stock number will probably erase my ills I'll even do water changes bi-weekly for them and low level brackish.  If they're just plain ornery, I need to let Go!!!!!    But I sort of feel like giving them one more try if I can find some advise.
<Mollies are definitely worth keeping, but as you realise, the bigger the group, the easier.>
Jill
P.S. This guy suggests isolations, which I was doing (using a 10 gallon) and it helped.  But it was a pain in the blank to have to constantly be switching out bratty females.  (I wonder if a 2.5 gallon like he used would be more effective in that it's really no fun!)  http://www.tropicalfishkeeping.com/livebearers/help-aggressive-female-molly-61201/
I'm mainly just wondering if the aggression was a stock issue, or maybe I needed to move the current ones out into the 10 gallon and rearrange things before adding new and put everyone in at once?
<Isolation works as a one-off, but it's hardly practical in the long term.>
or do I just need to switch to a more amiable species of fish?!  I'm sad as I love Dalmatian and black mollies.  It's popularly reported that black ones are the most frequently aggressive.
<I've not really noticed this to be honest. Big male Sailfins seem far more boisterous and aggressive. I guess "popularly reported" may mean than more people keep Black Mollies, and many of those people keep them in communities with smaller fish like Guppies and Platies, and I'm quite sure Black Mollies can, do bully them. On the other hand, keep Black Mollies in a brackish water community with Scats and Monos and they're right at the bottom of the pecking order.>
I just don't like fish dying from bullying.
<Indeed not.>
A little harmless posturing wouldn't bother me.
<Which in a sense is what the fish want to do -- it's normal social interaction of the kind we tend to prevent with most other pets. So long as the fish can avoid being bullied and hurt, then threats and displays are all part of their normal lives.>
And I don't recall if I fed them once or twice a day, I wonder if that was an issue.....if they needed more food and were grouchy.
<With Mollies, 12-hour a day algal grazing is the ideal. Failing that, a little but often. Oh, and one tidbit of relevance here: male livebearers in the wild are often far less aggressive because they don't have the time, they need to spend much more time feeding on algae. Why? Because algae provides little energy, so without feeding for many hours a day, they would starve. In captivity we give them all the energy they need in 30 seconds' worth of flake -- so they have all the rest of the day to fight. Maybe create a tank with strong lighting and lots of flat rocks, so algae grows rapidly and profusely. Minimise your feeding, let the Mollies feed themselves on the algae (which is what they evolved to do, and why they have very distinctive mouths). Cheers, Neale.>
Re: Chain loach and Cherry Barb? (salt tolerance question)    11/17/12
Thanks Neil.
<Gill,>
My tank is fine for algae!  That's why the mollies are fun to watch....They're picking around on the bottom or among the plants and even the walls of the tank.  They seem to have more personality than some of the other types of fish. I'm thinking my 29 gallon is too small....  unless it's ok to stock only females?
<Yes.>
Or does that cause fights?
<No.>
If I need both sexes than definitely having 10 female and 5 male fish x 3"  (sorry, Americans and their inches!) is overstock. If it's alright to do only females, I could increase the number of mollies without going over....I could do 10 females. I'd only house mollies with other brackish....   I'd go to low brackish. The stuff about driftwood and peat is only if I give up on keeping mollies and switch to loaches! It seems though, that it would be easier to work with what I have which is hard water!
<Likely so.>
Regarding snails again:
I read this blog this morning and it sounds like if I have too many snails it's possible the tank isn't biologically balanced and possible I need to feed the plants too.  The person said snails are no big deal at all in his/her planted tank!!!
http://www.tropicalfishkeeping.com/freshwater-tropical-fish/snail-eating-fish-wont-eat-shrimps-75752/
<Snails aren't a problem in my planted tank. I'm sure there's 100s of them, but I hardly see them, and they don't the plants any harm. In any event, healthy plants generally aren't damaged my Physa and Melanoides-type snails, though Apple Snails and their relatives may eat them.>
I didn't feed my plants or use special substrate because I read so many things suggesting 1) you don't need to feed low light plants in a low light tank,
<Hmm… not sure this is necessarily true, though I hardly ever fertilise my planted tanks, and they are stocked with mostly undemanding plants (Anubias, Crypts, floating Indian Fern, Aponogeton hybrids, etc.).>
and 2) fertilizer is Harmful to many fish and assassin snails too
<Used as directed, fertilisers shouldn't cause any harm.>
and 3) fertilizer increases algae increases snails.
<Possibly, but snails are just as likely to eat fish food and fish waste as they are algae, so there's probably not much in this either way.>
Do you agree with this, or should I use better substrate and or feed the plants?
<I do like to use rich substrates, but again, lots of people don't, and have first-rate results. A lot depends on the plants you're growing. For the slow-growing epiphytes like Anubias and Java fern, these ignore the substrate any way, so a little fertiliser added to the water will help them. On the other hand, Amazon Swords and Crypts do seem to enjoy a good substrate, or at least a suitable alternative, like fertiliser pellets pushed into the gravel around them every once a month or so. I'm a big advocate for choosing plants that suit your style of fishkeeping rather than trying to change the way you keep fish so your plants are happy, but each to their own.>
I have fine natural gravel and it seems to have materials in it and the fish stores all said it was good enough.
<Plain vanilla gravel is inert, and contains virtually no nutrients of any kind. Over time bacteria cause some degree of fertilisation inside deep gravel beds (a couple inches or more) so that certain nutrients, including nitrate and phosphate, are produced from the fish wastes and other sources of decay. No real surprise there. But iron and magnesium are two nutrients that are often lacking, and if your plants have yellow patches on otherwise normal leaves, it's a clue that these sorts of minerals are missing. On the other hand, if your plants look okay but grow slowly or outright fail to thrive, limited nutrients aren't nearly as likely a cause as the wrong environment (typically not enough light).>
Plants with roots are all potted in the gravel, and the other types are attached to rocks.  But the plants have been nibbled down by snail babies and look very scrawny now.   :-(
Plants: java ferns, Anubias, Crypts, and sparse hornwort...it mostly died out or perhaps was eaten as the others.  I've seen snails on it.
<If snails are damaging plants, it's almost always the case the plant was failing anyway. As noted above, the small pest snails don't normally harm healthy plants.>
I attached a picture so you can see the plant scrawniness.  They were much larger at purchase.
<My guess is that the problems here are mostly to do with lighting. How many strip lights do you have across the top of the tank? One? Two? If only one or two, forget about anything light green and fast growing, such as Hygrophila or Rotala or even Amazon Swords. Instead, focus on Anubias, Java fern, Java moss, and potted hardy Cryptocoryne species, especially Cryptocoryne wendtii. These plants are undemanding. Don't ram Anubias or Java fern into shells or anywhere like that; instead, simply use black cotton to gentle tie them onto (ideally) bogwood or chemically inert stones (like slate or lava rock). Buy some floating Indian Fern for the top of the tank and leave it there. Hornwort might work if this tank were coldwater, but this coldwater plant "speeds up" in tropical tanks, and needs very strong lighting if its food production (photosynthesis) is to keep up with its metabolism (growth). Do also try and buy reflectors for the tubes, so all the light goes towards the plants; if that isn't an option, then aluminium foil stuck to the inside of the hood works okay. Indian Fern provides not just shade but also helps suppress algae. Oh, and all the plants I've mentioned as suitable are salt-tolerant, so they're good choices for Mollies.>
((WOW, I just cleaned the tank last week and I scraped partially the other night, and yet the picture is showing algae again on the glass.  It isn't visible in low lighting but it's obvious in my photo!))
Thanks Again.
I really hope to come up with a final decision this weekend of which direction to go now with this tank.  I super appreciate your input.  I know you know what you're talking about and helps me sort through the often conflicting opinions in some of the other forums and sources.
Jill
<Glad to help. There are some great planted aquarium forums out there, so do peruse and solicit second opinions from those who know more about plants than me! Cheers, Neale.>