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Ich, White Spot,
Cryptocaryoniasis 21
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Re: Saltwater questions: Epaulette and Snowflake Eel
2/24/06 Hey Bob,
<Joe>
Thanks for the reply. Your crew have made my transition from fresh to
saltwater so much easier. I have a couple more questions to ask you.
First
of all, how long after a tank has cycled (or reached a zero ammonia and
nitrite level) should a water change take place?
<... posted on WWM... a few weeks>
I would also like to know if I can feed my fish some seaweed flakes
which I bought from an Asian grocery store...except they contain a
little bit of
corn oil and sunflower oil. Will this pose a problem?
<Likely not. But I would take care to not allow a "scum"
to form, stay on your water surface>
These were the most plain flakes I could find. Last of all, an owner of
one of my local fish stores commented to me that getting 'white
spot' was an inevitable part of keeping saltwater fish despite any
quarantine measures which are used.
<Incorrect. There are SPF (Specific Pathogen Free) marine systems,
entire culture facilities. If Cryptocaryon is disallowed, it does not
magically appear...>
He said that it would happen sooner or later. Is there any truth or
merit in his statement?
<Not unless s/he means that marine whitespot can "hide"
undetected if not excluded, no>
I am determined to prove him wrong. ;) How does the amount of live rock
in one's tank affect or keep at bay the symptoms or severity of
White Spot??
<Good question... I suspect there is some negative correlation here.
The more LR, the less prevalent the infestations>
Once again, thanks in advance. Regards,
Joe
<Thank you. Bob Fenner>
Re: Ich - 2/21/2006 Hi again.
<...? No prev. corr...>
Well, I lost my Lemonpeel angel to Ich. Didn't see it coming. So
my question to you now is: I have a gamma who needs to be treated
but I Also have two Percula Clowns who do not have any spots on
them (yet) should I take them out and put them in copper too? Or
perhaps take them out and put them in a hospital tank with no
copper?
<... you're joking right?>
I also have a Diamond Watchman Goby. I was told he was pretty
much immune to the parasite? True or False? Now, If QT The goby
will her survive without sand?
Thanks so much
Jon
<... take the time to search, read over these issues on WWM... and
soon, or all your fish will perish. Bob Fenner>
Re: Ich - 2/21/2006 Thanks Bob,
<Welcome>
I have been reading on the site and it does say to treat all
fish which I know is the standard procedure when treating the
parasite. I also read however that its not smart to treat a fish
that does not have the parasite or exhibiting any issues and the
clownfish are very sensitive to copper.
<They all... and the system "have" it>
I just wanted your opinion on this matter and what you would do in
this situation.
<... you have it... Bob Fenner>
Ick... - 02/20/06 Good morning James(?)<James it
is.> Bob here. you helped me with red
slime/diatoms. Amazingly, they seem under control. <Good to
hear.> Water change, sand work four days ago and the tank looks
great. However, now that is all under control, the fish are
dying. Spent yesterday reading here about ick. So
I followed what I thought was the correct procedure. Set up
the hospital tank, raised the temp to 28 from 25, set up a fresh
water dip, caught my blue tang, dipped
for 5 minutes, put the tang in the hospital tank and this morning it is
dead. What did I do wrong, <Was the QT the same temp/ph as the main
tank? Could just be that the tang was too weak to go through
the FW dip.> and what about my French angel, flame hawk and snow
flake eel? Do you think the ick came in with the snails that
I bought a week ago? <Unlikely. I'd keep
an eye on the remaining fish and if ich shows up, transfer to QT and
treat. Tangs are usually the first to come down with the
disease, Frenchie would be next. James (Salty Dog)>
Bob
Possible Ich -- To Treat or Not to Treat?
2/13/06 Hi, Crew--
<Juli>
First, thank you so much for the support you provide. I read
your website daily and try to put your counsel to good use.
In this case, though, I feel like I need some direct expert advice. I
have a 24 gallon Nanocube which has been stable for
thirteen months. The tank contains 20 lb. LR/LS, 1
Cherub Angel, I Royal Gramma, 1 Peppermint Shrimp, 1 Frogspawn, 1
Open Brain, 1 Bubble Coral, an ever-spreading colony of Star
Polyps and a few snails/ crabs. Water
parameters: Temp: 78 degrees, SG 1.025, Ph: 8.1,
dKH:
7, Cal: 420, Amm: 0, Nitrite: 0, Nitrate: 12.5. I do weekly
water changes of 4-5 gallons with Catalina sea water and keep a
bag of Chemi-Pure in the sump. These water parameters are
consistent for my tank and everyone seems happy.
On Monday, 1/30, I had a 26 hour power outage. Horrified, I
inserted a battery-powered airstone and wrapped the tank in down
comforters.
<Good moves>
The temperature descent from 78 degrees was gradual, finally
holding at 72 f. I was sure all livestock would be dead
by morning, all the same. Amazingly, when power was
restored everyone looked fine and I left the tank alone, hoping to
avoid additional stress. The morning after the outage I
baster-fed a slurry of Prime Reef, Mysis and Cyclop-eeze and then
did a 5 gallon water change. I also added a recommended dose of
Kent Vitamin C, hoping to bolster any challenged immune
systems.
At 9am the morning after the power was restored I thought I
might have detected a vague white spot on the head of my beloved
Cherub Angel. I may have imagined it -- the spot
didn't spread or grow and my little fish was as energetic,
hungry and curious as always --
picking at the live rock & substrate, etc. The
"spot" disappeared by 4pm and I decided I'd imagined
it.
On Wednesday night, 2/8, however, I lost the lights on my
Nanocube. I ordered a replacement canopy via
overnight delivery and was able to provide at least some light by
using the canopy from my Eclipse 12 gallon QT. Not
great, but at least some form of
illumination. The replacement canopy arrived on Friday
morning and I installed it right away.
On Friday evening I noticed a re-emergence of the spot on the
Angel's head. Today the spot hasn't spread or
changed, but her behavior has. Although still eating
voraciously, she is behaving differently -- swimming rapidly
against the current with her fins tucked, spending lots of time
moving vertically in the front corner of the tank (from bottom to
top of the corner) and then darting among
the LR. She's spending relatively little time
picking around for things to eat as she normally does, and she
seems to have lost patience with her tank mate the
Gramma. She's not scratching or rubbing (so far
as I can tell), nor does she seem "salted" or
"dusty." Her respiration appears normal,
she's not gasping at the surface and her eyes are clear.
I filled my QT tank and have prepared a freshwater dip -- but
I haven't tried to net my fish yet. Based on what
I've written, do you
think my fish likely has Ich and should be treated immediately?
<Tough to say re a/the parasitic possibility, but I would (if
it's not too hard) move all your fishes... too likely there is a
toxic response from the power outage from your cnidarians/corals...
that is really the principally fault here...>
Given the environmental stress the tank has sustained I'm hesitant
to inflict further insult unless truly indicated. Also,
I want to
clarify the treatment regimen if she does have Ich -- freshwater
dip without Methylene Blue due to Angel
sensitivity?
<Worthwhile in transition to the other tank, yes... pH
adjusted>
Formalin instead of copper in the treatment tank for the same
reason?
<No, neither>
Should I use Rid-Ich+ (Formalin & Malachite Green)?
<I would not at this point>
Thank you so much for any advice you can offer. I'm
worried I'll do the wrong thing and kill my fish.
--jag
<Please read here: http://wetwebmedia.com/mardisease.htm
Bob Fenner>
Re: Possible Ich -- To Treat or Not to Treat? To read or
not? 2/14/06 Thanks, Bob. I really
appreciate your advice. A toxic reaction makes
sense. Unfortunately, capturing the fish is proving
impossible without taking the tank down.
<Might be expedient...>
Do you think I can manage the problem with daily water
changes
<No>
or is it best to just press on and get them out? How
long should I keep them in the aux. tank?
--jag
<Posted along with many other pertinent points that there just
isn't ding dang time to go over (again) here. There are some forty
more questions to respond to currently, then all to format, fix, post
and parse... See WWM please. The Google search tool, indices,
links... Bob Fenner>
Ich / copper / knowledge transference 2/7/06
Hello,
<Hello>
I'm about to fire up the QT tank and treat all of my fish for Ich.
I have a compressed Toby and want to double check and make sure he will
be okay with Copper Sulfate? I think all of my other fish
should be fine.
<I'd keep the therapeutic dose at the low end (0.15-0.20) and
use a chelated brand>
Also, how long should I treat with copper in the QT tank before I start
adding carbon to remove the copper?
Thanks
David
<Much, much more to state here... and is stated on WWM... see there
re Crypt, Copper use... Bob Fenner>
Re: Ich / copper ... reading, knowing what you're doing
2/8/06 I plan on using Copper Safe, which recommends
2.0ppm.
<... this is the equivalent of 0.35 ppm for free copper...>
I just want to double check with you that .15-.2 will be
sufficient as that is a considerable difference?
<?... please, read... on WWM re>
I read on WWM that 2 weeks is the time recommended to dose with the
copper.
<Yes, generally>
I will also plan in increasing temp in my main tank to 82 when it goes
fallow for 6 weeks. Should I do hyposalinity in the main
tank in conjunction with copper in QT?
Thanks
<You're joking? Please... read... on... Bob Fenner>
New introduced fish dying of Itch... Parasitized SW System
- 2/4/2006 Hello,
Thanks a lot for your help in advance.
And Sorry for my writing since English is not my native language.
<No worries. We make exceptions for such>
I have a simple question: Is it possible that Itch kills a new
introduced healthy fish in just two days?
<Mmm, yes... along with other stress>
I had a mayor Itch problem about 2 months ago, some fishes died, but
the ones that didn't now are completely recuperated and doing very
well.
Two days ago I introduced two damsels, thinking that Itch had gone,
they did fine for 2 days, but died in the morning of the third day
completely covered of white dots.
Can Itch be that lethal and kill the new fishes in just two days?
<Yes, can>
The rest of the fishes that were on the tank are still doing fine.
Is it possible that Itch by itself be the reason of the fishes to
die?
<Generally not by itself. Other factors, mostly water quality, other
environmental factors are also at play here>
Assuming everything else is more or less all right:
Salinity 1.024
Nitrates 5
Nitrites 0
Ammonia 0
PH 8.3
Alk 13 DKH
Temp 80°F = 27°C
<These are all fine>
The damsels were introduced following the acclimatizing process.
I mean, Can the water conditions be perfect (not that mine are) and
Itch alone still keep killing every new fish introduced?
<Yes... the system itself has the ich/crypt, and the state is
hyperinfective... a strong pathogenic reaction to new fish hosts.
Please give the section on ich/Cryptocaryon a read over on WWM...
particularly the parasitic systems FAQs files: http://wetwebmedia.com/parasittksfaqs.htm
and the linked files above. You need to decide whether you want to rid
the system itself of the problem (requiring moving all fishes...
treating them elsewhere)... or keeping pretty much just what you have
now. Bob Fenner>
Thank you very much
Mauricio
Ich question 2/2/06
I've read mountains of info on your
site and others about ich prevention and treatment. All very good info
but I have a question that may not be answerable.
Several weeks ago I took delivery of what
was supposed to be a Naso tang but was accidentally sent a Powder Blue.
Rather than send it back, I decided to take on the task, knowing this
fish's reputation. He arrived in 59 degree water due to a bag/box
mishap on his way to balmy Minnesota but I brought him along slowly and
eventually got him into quarantine. After 2 days he was eating and in 2
weeks showed not a sign of trouble. The qt tank was small so I was
eager to get him into my 180 gal F.O. with 200 pounds of
algae-rich rock.
A juv Koran owns the tank and is similar
size to the PB. I placed him late in the afternoon and the 2 did
skirmish despite the blackout and mirrors placed on the sidewalls.
Early the next morning the PB was covered head to tail in ich. I
promptly removed him and put him back in qt and within 4 hours I was
almost unable to see any sign of the ich. He ate wonderfully and by the
next day was completely clear.
<The ich/crypt is not visible... only the more extreme
irritation/manifestation of "spots"/mucus... both tanks, all
fishes are now infested...>
My tank has been running for @ 6 years
and I've never had an ich issue except a small sprinkling on my
hippo tang two years ago after a temp problem. The question I pose is;
Will this always be an issue trying to establish a PB into my
aggressive system that is supposedly without ich?
<Yes>
Or perhaps my qt time was ineffective and following a second span as
well as meds for the problem, and removal of the Koran for a few weeks,
I should try him again?
<I would, likely yes. Can't live in the quarantine>
I simply don't want to threaten an otherwise healthy tank for the
pleasure of adding this fish. Thank you for your opinion.-Steve
<If your fishes have been present since the incident with the Blue
Tang... your system itself is infested. Please read here: http://wetwebmedia.com/parasittksfaqs.htm
and the linked files above. You are faced with a very common
situation... trying to maintain a balance in your and your fishes favor
in a parasitized system... or catching all out, moving... Bob
Fenner>
Marine Death mystery ... parasitized marine systems
2/2/06 Hi to all the crew at WWM.
<Howdy>
I am now 3 months into the marine hobby and have read books, WWM of
course and sought the advice of many sources. I am writing
to you to help me solve a mystery which has eluded me and my respected
LFS. I have a 4ft (200L) reef tank with 2 canister filters,
1 x 2200Lph SEIO powerhead, Prism Protein Skimmer and 8W UV
Sterilizer. I introduced live rock, clean up crew (hermits
and snails) all at the correct times of maturity. I only use RO water
and add calcium and other nutrients. I gradually stocked the tank with
fish, taking careful notice of measurements of water
quality. At its optimum stage I had, 1 x Black Pyramid
Butterflyfish,
<Needs more room than this>
2 x male Percula clowns, regal tang, yellow tang, rusty dwarf angel, 6
green Chromis, 2 blue cheek gobies and one yellow clown
goby And on the invert side, 3 cleaner shrimp, 1 x anemone
crab, half dozen blue legged hermits, 20 snails, 1 blue star fish, 1
small red starfish (not sure of name, he has a black cracked pattern on
his body with black tips to his legs), 2 feather duster worms, and
assorted corals (leather, mushrooms, xenia etc). I have
about 10 Kilos of live rock. This setup was surviving
well. The Regal Tang did have a problem with white spot
shortly after introduction and as I couldn't get him out of the
tank to treat (these fish are fast), I was advised to use Octozin
(which is harmless to inverts).
<and is ineffective... Your system has the crypt/ich still>
After treatment as a safety precaution I fitted the UV sterilizer. The
Regal's white spot would sometimes come
back and disappear (leading me to believe that the problem could just
be air bubbles). All other fish looked ok with no signs of
illness.
<Operative word: looked>
Now at the point when things started going wrong, I did three things
(all of which I am informed wouldn't have caused this dramatic a
problem). I installed 2 x 39W T5 tubes (marine glow and white) to add
to my existing 2 x T8 bulbs. I also started adding Iodine to
boost the growth of my corals and I bought some
phytoplankton. A couple of days later I noticed my red
starfish was curling up its feet. The next day it had lost a leg (which
I found and discarded). It wasn't until a couple of days
later I realized that the starfish hadn't been attacked or got
caught on something, it was actually disintegrating, leaking a stringy
substance into the water. The remains were removed from the
tank and a 50L water change administered. During this
period, my dwarf Angel suddenly died.
<Cumulative stress... weakest animal...>
Two days later, I noticed lots of white dots on the butterflyfish, he
was swimming on his side and by 1am that night, he died.
<Next...>
Then two days later one of my clownfish went missing, presumed dead
(didn't find remains). Next day, noticed white spots and
discolouration on both tangs, and by the end of that day both were
dead. Then finally the remaining clownfish died (again with
white spot signs and discolouration). During this period of
mass death the nitrite level rose to 0.1 and nitrate to around
60.
<Decomposition...>
I also did a few water changes (maintaining salinity of 1.024), lifted
rocks to check for dead or decaying matter and replaced most of the
substrate and again treated the tank with Octozin a couple of days
later.
<You'll learn... are learning>
I have good water circulation throughout the tank with the powerhead
located almost at the water surface.
It is worth noting that during this entire period and today, I have not
suffered any invert or coral losses, in fact they all look very
healthy, the corals are even extending more (which I put down to the
additional T5s and iodine). The 6 Chromis, yellow clown goby
and blue cheeked gobies are all in good health and eating very
well. Surely if the problem was down to bad water quality it
would have affected the most sensitive inverts, like my blue
starfish.
A couple of weeks ago my water quality was returning to acceptable
levels so I introduced a black clown. This unfortunately died 3 days
later with the same symptoms in day two of the Octozin treatment.
<Yes... as will almost any new fishes added>
Obviously I am going to wait for a month or so before adding any more
fish, and will do several water changes to try to reduce the nitrite
and nitrate level (reading between 40 and 60 at the minute). I am
however concerned that the problem will spark off again as soon as I
introduce
more fish.
<Correct>
Now that no other fish I have are affected
<They are actually... just not symptomatically...>
would you say that if the problem was parasitic, the parasite would die
eventually if it doesn't have anything to feed on?
<Yes... the logic, rationale of allowing such infested systems to
"go fallow", sans fish hosts>
Would white spot kill that much livestock that quickly?
<Oh yes... think about the confines of the system/world...>
What would you suggest I do before I restock with more fish?
<Posted... see WWM re Crypt... many articles, FAQs files...>
Did I load my tank too quickly?
<Too much, too soon, yes, and w/o quarantine...>
Ammonia levels are zero and have been constantly zero for some time
(according to my liquid test kit).
Please help as I cannot work out what could be causing the problem.
<Mmm: no quarantine, use of a placebo medication, cumulative losses,
infested system>
The manager of my LFS (with a marine Biology degree) even came to see
my tank and said everything looked really good; he was surprised with
such losses that the inverts and corals hadn't suffered as
well.
<... they aren't susceptible to this parasite>
On close examination of the dead tangs, apart from slight white spots
and degradation of the fins, nothing else appeared wrong.
Latest measurements by me read: Ammonia 0, Nitrate 0, nitrate 40,
salinity 1.024, pH 8.2. Temp between 26.5-28.3 (measured throughout
the
day). T8 lighting on from 10am till 8:30. T5s on
from 11 till 7:30. I have a feeling my liquid test kits are
not as accurate as the tablets
used by the LFS as their readings show levels when mine show
0. I need to take a sample of water to them to see if I
still have nitrite and their reading of nitrate.
Regards
Andrew Deacon
<Your plight is all too common. Please start reading here: http://wetwebmedia.com/ichartmar.htm
then on to the linked files at top... till you understand your
situation, options... You need to separate the fishes... treat them
elsewhere... Bob Fenner>
Ick from corals? 1/31/06 Hi crew,
<Pat>
I have a question about the source of ick. My blue tang and
royal Gramma have suspicious white spots on them today. I have had
both fish for over 1 year in a 90 gal reef. I have recently (past
2 weeks) added some corals to the tank: 3 SPS (Acro sp, birds
nest), 2 Acan lord frags, 1 Micromussa, 1 Blastomussa wellsi.
These corals came from local people that sold them from their
apartment & garages. Can corals be a source of ick?
<Mmm, yes. Actually any wet substrate that has recently "come
in contact" with such pathogens>
These fish have been healthy since I bought them a year ago. I
have a cleaner shrimp that's been in the
tank for a year as well. The blue tang has been going to the
shrimp for cleaning; haven't seen the royal Gramma get close
to the shrimp.
The blue tang has half a dozen spots on each side.
<Does sound like Crypt...>
The tanks is a 90 gallon mixed reef that has been running for
16 months. I live in San Diego and do 10 gal weekly water changes
with NSW from Scripps. Haven't checked nitrate, ammonia, in a
while; Ca = 430; Alk = 9; salinity = 1.026. Euro-Reef CS8-2
skimmer, AB Aquaspacelight 650 watts total DE HQI. Should I try to
remove the fish to quarantine?
<Mmm, a tough question... I would leave off, make this decision
based on the choice between likely further advance in
numbers/pathogenicity, and the return to "balance" in the
current set-up... I strongly suspect your system has/had the
crypt/ich... and that adding the cnidarians only triggered its
expression>
I have a 20 gal setup for a year for qt with 2 clown fish,
peppermint shrimp, hitchhiker crab and some overgrown corals
(colt, xenia, GSP)
Thanks,
Pat
<Please make it known if my comments aren't clear. Bob
Fenner>
Re: Ick from corals? 2/2/06 Thanks for the
reply.
<Welcome>
The following morning, all fish looked and behaved perfectly
normal. There were no visible white dots anywhere. It has
been 2 days and it looks like I avoided an outbreak.
<... more likely is "just" cycling... "Will be
baaaaack">
I'll have to think about installing some better lighting over my
20 gal tank so that I can quarantine SPS corals better. It
currently has 2x65watt power compact; my main tank has 650watts
HQI. I've been looking for a reason to buy a 20K HQI pendant
to replace the power compacts :)
Glad to be able to share the good news.
Pat
<Be chatting... observing closely. Bob Fenner>
Hyposalinity in a tank with a BTA 1/27/06
Hello Crew!
<Garen>
I have small cowfish and blue throat trigger with a severe case of
ich. I wanted to try hyposalinity treatment on the display
tank because I don't have a hospital tank that could hold the
trigger and cow (only 10 gallons). The problem lies in that
there is a maroon clown with his BTA in the tank. I would
like to know what the lowest salinity that the BTA could tolerate and
for what amount of time?
<I would not fool with spg here and the anemone>
Also, I would like treat with copper on these two fish because I
don't want to risk losing them due to the advanced stages of ich
and the minimal success rate of hypo treat.
<Good>
I think that the blue throat can tolerate normal amounts of the copper
(please tell me if there is anything special about treating the trigger
vs. other "hardy" fish) and that the longhorn cowfish can
only tolerate very small amounts copper. So it appears that
I would have to buy another 10 gal treatment tank and treat them with
different levels of copper in separate treatment tanks. I
have looked at the Boxfish FAQs and Boxfish Disease FAQs and have seen
that Mr. Fenner has said that small amounts of copper can be used on
the cowfish but I can't find how much copper to use in any of the
FAQs for the cowfish.
<The lower limits of efficacy: 0.15 to 0.20 free cupric ion
ppm>
I am desperate here and need the suggested amount of copper
for treating a cowfish, along with the appropriate temperature,
duration of treatment, and salinity level for his treatment.
<Upper 70's F. for most species, two weeks, and 1.018>
A little off topic here, but could you guys tell me (or direct me with
a link) how to get lionfish/scorpionfish to eat prepared
foods. I can't get my Cheekspot scorpionfish, diabolus,
and antennata lionfish to eat prepared foods but strangely my fuzzy
dwarf lion will only eat pellets. Strange situation, one
extreme to the other within the Scorpaenidae family. I'm
confused, you?
<All the ding dang time. The feeding is a matter of
"practice" with meaty food items, a "stick" to
attach same to and dangle in front of the fish. Bob Fenner>
Thanx again,
Garen Wright
Add-on to "Hyposalinity in a tank with BTA"
1/30/06 Hello,
a couple of things here that I forgot to add to my first email:
<If re-writing, please always include previous
correspondence>
1. I forgot to tell you that the copper that I am using is
Cupramine by Seachem and I am also using the Multi-test by Seachem.
2. If I use 10 gallon hospital tanks for copper treatment,
how often and how much of the water should I change out in order to
keep the Ammonia under control.
<Test it and change accordingly. I would seek to keep ammonia under
0.5 ppm>
3. Is it really that helpful to use a polyfiber pad in a
filter or can I get away (safely) by using a powerhead for water
circulation?
<... Polyfiber? As in a mechanical/sieve structure? Is useful,
though such need to be kept clean>
It just seems that if I am changing the water often and with a Python,
that a filter will just serve to circulate water in the same manner as
a powerhead because I will be vacuuming waste out with my water
changes. (I apologize if the way I worded this question is
confusing)
<Does make sense... I would likely use a powerhead, but with an
intake foam fitting... for some particulate filtration as well as to
prevent livestock from being sucked against the intake.>
4. If I keep the Blue-throat in a 10 gallon hospital and the
Cowfish in a 10 gallon hospital (separate hospital
tanks) what is the minimum that I can feed them over the
treatment period without adversely affecting the strength of their
immune system.
<Only trial can tell here... I would keep a close eye on their
apparent "index of fitness"... that is, fullness in the
abdomen region... and keep feeding to a minimum... likely something
every other day... but not much>
5. When being treated with copper, do fish rely evenly on
their immune systems and the copper to fight off the crypt parasite or
do they rely more on one than the other? If it is uneven,
what would you say the percentages are.
<Mmm, don't "rely" on either... Immune systems are
always in play... the copper acts as a proteinaceous precipitant
mainly... poisoning the fish/es, causing them to produce copious
amounts of body slime/mucin... sloughing off adult parasites... as well
as poisoning "swarming" intermediates when they are in the
water column... the last the reason why one needs to have a
"treatment dose/concentration" present at all times.>
Thanks,
Garen Wright
<Bob Fenner>
Crypt, Quarantining for yourself
1/25/06 Hi crew, I think I may have a major issue right now.
Today I noticed small flecks on my pair of Dartfish. They have
been acting otherwise normally and feeding well. I'm extremely
worried it may be marine itch or something close to that. I have a
330 gallon tank, fully equipped for a reef setup (protein skimmer,
UV sterilizers, etc.). The fish weren't quarantined because the
dealer said they quarantined all incoming stock and my parents
didn't want to spend extra money/time to establish a
quarantine tank.
<A mistake... few dealers have the facilities, discipline to truly
quarantine (though there are a few... e.g. AquaTouch in Phoenix)...
with water mixing, shared containers, nets...
cross-contaminating...>
The only other fish I have at this point are a Royal Gramma and a dozen
Green Chromis. The Gramma was
purchased at the same time as the Dartfish with no unhealthy signs. The
Chromis have been in the system for a month with no issues. Should
I try to establish an emergency quarantine tank?
<Will have to treat all...>
Would a cleaner goby or shrimp pick off the itch?
<Mmm, the larger... yes... but your system will have the ongoing
problem... new fish hosts, challenges in the environment having it
re-surface>
The biggest problem is that my family is going to Utah in
two days for a three day vacation. I would have to wait
until afterwards to do anything.
Would this make it worse?
<Possibly>
What are the chances of the others getting it?
<If it is Cryptocaryon, almost assured>
If I can't stop it, how long would I have to wait to get
fish again, if ever? Please let me know. Thanks.
<Please read here: http://wetwebmedia.com/ichartmar.htm
and the many linked files above till you understand what you're up
against. Bob Fenner>
What is the best treatment? Small tang/fish, crypt...
1/25/06 WWM,
<Bryan>
I am looking for the best way to treat my P. hepatus. I have
always tried to use a quarantine setup for new arrivals, but now I
found myself in a situations and I don't know which way to
go. So here is the deal, I have a Blue Tang that is about 1
inch in size
<Tiny!>
and through quarantine (10 gal) he did very well, no signs of
infection, eat very well, very fat, and colorful
fish. After the Q tank I decided, because of his size, to
put him a 20 gal FOWLR (well base rock not really live, yet) with only
one other fish, an A. frenatus (same size). The only reason
I did this is the main display tank, although large enough, has a few
bullies in it and I wanted the Blue Tang along with the Tomato to gain
a little size before entering the open waters.
<Likely a very good move>
Since the tang has been in the 20 gal he is eating very well, very
active (plays around with the Tomato Clown all day), but, and there
always is one. The tang is now showing signs and symptoms of
Ich. So what should I do?
<Mmm, for one, be cautious... re this "really" being
crypt... might just be "stress markings"... For two, look
into biological cleaners (my choice? A Gobiosoma/Elacatinus Goby)... I
would also bolster its immune system, through feeding/supplementation.
I would avoid copper with such a small specimen if I could>
Remove the tang and go back to the Q tank for meds? Leave it and treat
it in the 20gal (no inverts or corals)? FW dip/bath then to Q
tank? I hate to move this fish all around.
<Me too>
I don't mind treating the 20 gal; it's more of a grow-out tank
for little guys getting ready to go to the main tank. Also,
what would you recommend for a medication, I have never really had to
deal with Ich, but my thought is to lower the salinity to 1.010-5,
raise the temperature to 82, and add a little malachite green
hydrochloride for a week. Does this sound like a good
plan?
Thanks, Bryan
<I would try the Cleaner for now... and of course, treat the fishes
(with copper) before moving into/with other fishes/systems. But hold
off till the Tang is at least twice this length. Bob Fenner>
Flame Angel Not eating... Melafix/tea non-treatment -
01/24/06 Hi Bob,
<Chase>
I hope you can please help me with this? I have had a 3.5 in Flame
angel for over 7 months now. About 7 weeks ago I had a bad case of ick
that ended up killing my Bicolor blenny before I could get it under
control. I finally have it under control with no signs of ick for 6
weeks. The problem that I am having is the flame angel hasn't eaten
in about 6 weeks.
I treat the ick with MelaFix (which now I am not sure was the best
thing).
<... is not... the ich is still there... its presence
(sub-symptomatic) is likely largely at play here>
I feed the tank spectrum, flake, live brine, frozen brine, Mysis and
bloodworms. The flame
angel eat great before and eat everything that I gave him. He
hasn't loss any weight that I can tell, but he is eating the normal
food. He also has come very shy and hides in the rocks a lot. There is
nothing in the tank picking on him and everything else is eating well.
About 1 week ago I noticed that his tail (the purple part) was tearing
and since he had no appetite I thought it maybe fin rot so I again
dosed MelaFix which helped the fin rot within 2 days but he still
isn't eating. Do you have any suggestions? Thanks for your
help.
<... if people are sick with a parasite, do they think of drinking
tea to cure themselves?>
90 Gallon FOWLR, Copperband Butterfly, Flame Angel, Yellow Coris
wrasse, 6 line wrasse, Kole tang, pair of clowns, shrimp goby, Bartlett
Anthias,
diamond goby, yellow spot goby
Chase Brodsky
<You will find the Cryptocaryon resurfacing should this system be
"challenged" or another fish added... see WWM re treating
Crypt. Treat the cause, not symptoms. Bob Fenner>
Re: Ich stress - 01/24/06 Mr. Fenner,
Thank you, again, for your help.
I have read the articles and FAQ's on treating ich and setting up a
quarantine tank. I have a 10 gallon set up, which I filled 1/2 way last
night with water from my main tank (20 gal). I have a ceramic air-stone
and a small heater & thermometer. I'm going to get some PVC
pipe for him to hide in, as recommended. I plan to fill it the rest of
the way and run the power filter if he's going to have to stay
there a while. This morning I removed the goby and put him in the
quarantine tank. The spots were back.
<Oh yes>
I am going to try the freshwater/Methylene blue dip on him. I am afraid
of putting my coral beauty and clown in the quarantine tank, since they
are not showing symptoms,
<... they will. All have to be treated...>
I don't want to over-react and do more damage than good. They are a
bit freaked out as it is since I moved their rocks and things around
and had to mess with the skimmer. I don't want to use copper
because I do not have access to a copper test kit (PetSmart doesn't
carry and my fish store doesn't believe in anything but garlic
treatments).
<Thank goodness they aren't human MDs>
I don't know if I can get Formalin. So I guess my
questions are: will my cleaner shrimp protect the coral beauty from
getting the ich?
<No>
(he's a very active cleaner) If I decide to remove the coral beauty
from the main tank, is a 10 gallon big enough for him (and the other 2)
to survive long enough for the main tank to go fallow?
<Maybe>
If I do let the tank go fallow, do I feed the hermits and shrimp?
<Yes>
Are the turbo snails safe?
<Likely so>
Am I doomed?
<Assuredly not>
Thanks again, sorry to be such a newbie.
Karen Garrett
<You are what you are. Knowledge... borne of study or experience is
power (with a forthright mind). Become yourself. Bob Fenner>
Aggression, Ich and lessons learned 1/20/06 50G
tank
192 W PC lighting
1 3" Maroon Clown
1 3" Fuzzy Dwarf Lion
1 2" Six Line Wrasse
1 3" Pygmy Angel (white and black body with yellow stripe down
face)
1 2" Compressed Toby/Blue Spotted Puffer
2 Emerald Crabs
1 Sally Light Foot Crab
1 Porcelain Crab
20 hermits if they are all still alive
4 Turbo Snails
55lbs or so of LR.
Crushed Coral Substrate
Macro in Sump
Ammonia - 0; Nitrite - 0; Nitrate - 10-20.
Temp - 76
All was fine with my tank. Then I added a coral banded
shrimp. I then noticed the Angel acting a bit more
aggressively, darting at a couple of fish and backing into shrimp,
etc. Regrettably I didn't think much of it and the
situation seemed to improve. A couple of days later I added a 1"
Yellow Tang.
<Tiny!>
I have learned the hard way now why a QT tank is truly
needed and a 4 week QT.
<Oooh... good>
Immediately the Angel attacked the Tang in a voracious
way. I tried to train the Angel to not be making a noise on
the tank glass or with my hand in the tank; I tried lights out, etc,
etc. I finally got a breeder box and placed the Tang in
there, but too late.
<Better the antagonist, the Angel>
The Tang died last night. I'm not certain what
killed the Tang...sheer fright/stress, Ich or me doing a FW dip
incorrectly (too cold).
I did notice what I am quite sure was Ich on the Tang. There
was some white material on the side of the fish which I could rub off
with my finger.
What was most likely the cause of the Angel attacking the Yellow
Tang?
<Territoriality. This system is too small... among other
things>
Was it probably because the addition pushed the tank into being over
populated or more likely because of similarity in body shape and that
they both had Yellow color?
<Mostly the former, some of the latter, yes>
Was the Tang too small?
<Yes... best "started" at three inches total length or
so>
If the tank is at max population now, then I may remove the coral
banded shrimp if that will allow me to add another fish or I may
exchange a fish for another. If the body shape, color or
size were factors, I would like to try a Purple Tang maybe.
<You don't have the room>
In regards to Ich...I think I saw what could MAYBE be Ich on the Clown.
I can't tell with the Fuzzy dwarf Lion because I'm not sure if
what I see as white specks on hi is Ich or the "fuzzy"
natural part of his skin.
<You'll know soon enough>
Now that 1 fish in my tank has had Ich though, what is
best/required?
<Either to wait/see, or to move all... and treat... Covered over and
over on WWM>
I have raised my tank to 81 degrees. I will continue to do
weekly 20% water changes. I'm considering getting QT
tanks now and moving the fish into those for 4 weeks with a Methylene
Blue dip before and after going into QT. Is this necessary
or is there a treatment I can do to the main tank?
<Posted>
I have heard something about Jungle Juice or something along those
lines.
<A caustic material used for eliminating glass anemones...>
From reading WetWebMedia, it sounds like there is no treatment that can
kill Ich and not harm the LR/Reef.
<This is correct>
It also sounds like Ich is a huge debate and whether it is ever truly
gone versus always present.
<Mmm, no... there are pathogen free systems>
This is my first tank ever and I only have 3 months
experience. I'm trying to learn and do best by the
creatures, but I am making some mistakes along the
way. Unfortunately those of those mistakes could have been
averted. Now I get it. Much I have been told or
learned from various LFS I have found has either been misleading or
totally inaccurate.
<Happens... what did our moms say? "Don't believe
everything you hear/read">
My biggest concern now is why did the Angel attack the Tang so much so
(went on for a few days and at times seemed to be subsiding) and
what
does that mean to what I add or subtract from the tank now and what
about the Ich?
Thanks for any feedback/comments
David
<Keep reading David... and observing closely... I would not add any
more fish life to what you have here. Bob Fenner>
Ick, my tank has ich! Useful facts, you lack
knowledge! 1/17/06 Hello there, crew;
<Howdy Brent>
Well, it happened, my tank came down with ich. For fish
life, I have a Regal Tang, 2 clowns, 2 damsels, and one flashback
Dottyback in a 46 gallon aquarium. My substrate is about an
inch of CaribSea aragonite. I run a Fluval 304 filter and a
Coralife Super Skimmer on the tank. The tank has been up and
running since early November of 2005. my chemistry is as follows:
pH - 8.2, NH3 - 0, NO2 - 0, NO3 - 10ppm, S.G. - 1.021, Temperature is
20 degrees Celsius. I've removed my turbo snails (4) and my live
rock (18lbs). It was easier
this way than to remove all the fish (live rock and turbo snails being
much easier to catch!! :) ) I've left 1 cleaner shrimp,
and 2 blue legged hermits in the tank. I've also removed
the carbon from the filter (The sponges, pre-filter and bio-max are
still in place). I'm currently treating the tank with
Mardel CopperSafe,
<Not safe to use with crustaceans... or in a tank with carbonaceous
material>
carefully following the instructions and dosage that were contained in
the box.
<... needs to be tested... with a chelated copper test kit... the
concentration maintained...>
My question is: Is it all right to continue running the
protein skimmer with the chelated copper sulfate in the
water?
<Can be run with testing, replenishment of the copper... at least
daily>
I currently have my skimmer shut off. Is there anything else
I can be doing to help my fish? all are still eating well,
and scratching like crazy, with frequent visits to the
shrimp. Also, what copper testing kit would you
recommend?
<... Please... read... on WWM re>
Thanks for your help in advance. You have a great website,
and I enjoy reading it all the time. I'm optimistic that
all the fish will survive.
Brent
<You need to treat the fishes apart from the non-fishes,
substrate... Bob Fenner>
Re: Ich in the tank 1/18/06 Dear Mr. Fenner
and crew;
<All part and parcel>
Ok, I've done as advised by Mr. Fenner regarding the treatment of
my tank. I've removed the cleaner shrimp and hermit
crabs, and scraped out the aragonite substrate.
<Scrapped, as in removed...>
I've tested the water for copper, and my concentrations are 2.0
according to the colour change when compared to the card contained with
the test kit.
<Is a suitable/chelated test kit I take it>
I've re-read the instructions that came with the copper medication,
and it said that if administered properly, it would maintain a
concentration of 1.5
- 2.0. Is this a correct therapeutic dosage?
<Sounds/reads like it>
It also said that this medication was safe with
invertebrates with an exo-skeleton.
<Not always>
After my e-mail with Mr. Fenner, and speaking with the guy at the LFS
(who cringed when I told him the shrimp was in the tank, and was
surprised it wasn't
dead), I decided it was best to just remove it from any more harm.
<Good>
I've read the articles on WWM regarding "Fighting the War on
Two Fronts", plus several of the FAQ's and I was just
wondering if there is anything else
I should be doing?
<...?>
Also, what is your opinion on Kent Marine Expert Series RX*P?
<Posted... it's a sham>
Is it a worthwhile medication to add to the tank instead of copper
sulfate? Thanks for all the help, once again, guys and
gals.
Brent in Calgary
<Keep reading Brent in Calgary. BobF in San Diego>
Re: White Spots! - 01/14/06 Dear Eric
<<hello Akila>>
Thanks for your advice.
<<I hope you find it useful>>
Today I returned my clown tang to the fish store because he was heavily
infected with white spots.
<<Mmm, very good...though frankly I'm surprised they took it
back in such condition.>>
Unfortunately I don't have a quarantine tank
<<A worthwhile acquisition/expense, considering your investment
otherwise.>>
but I got hold of Copper Sulphate to treat the white spots.
<<Ok>>
Now I only have the Banner fish, the Threadfin butterfly, Clown fish
and the Wrasse
<<Cleaner Wrasse if I recall.>>
and I think they are also infected with white spots because they seem
very weak and have lost the appetite to eat.
<<Is very likely so.>>
As I don't have any invertebrates can I directly put Copper
Sulphate to my main tank?
<<I don't think you have a choice here...yes.>> <No,
Eric, no!!! RMF>
Eric, you have to help me with my Banner fish because he doesn't
eat and is very lethargy. When I bought him, his Banner fin
was very thick but now it is very thin. Also he seems to be
disturbed by the Wrasse.
<<Are you sure this is a Cleaner Wrasse? Do ensure you
don't have a "false" or "mimic" cleaner wrasse
(Aspidontus taeniatus taeniatus). Do a Google search re our
sight and the NET to be identify.>>
He is hiding in a corner without eating. Is he threatened by
the Wrasse?
<<If as I suspect, yes.>>
He was fine yesterday and had the thick fin but today everything has
changed. Does this have something to do with white spot
disease?
<<Is another possibility, yes. EricR>>
Appreciate your response.
Thanks,
Best Regards, Akila
Re: White Spots! II - 01/14/06 Dear Eric
<<Akila>>
I am in a big mess.
<<So I have surmised.>>
My whole system is a mess now.
<<Too much too fast my friend.>>
I am sorry to bother you this much but I have no other alternative than
telling you.
<<No worries mate, I hope I can be of some help.>>
All my fish are badly infected with white spots and there are some
velvety patches on them.
<<I suspect either your tank was not as "cycled' as you
thought...or more likely you put too many fish in at once and
overwhelmed your biofiltration.>>
They don't eat and are not active.
<<Very bad>>
My Bannerfish is very weak. His banner fin is bitten of my
wrasse so I removed the wrasse.
<<Good move...I suspect you have (had) a mimic cleaner
wrasse...bad news...>>
I got hold of Chelated Copper Sulfate but there is no clear instruction
on the bottle.
<<?>>
It says to use 5ml of Copper Sulfate to 40L of water. So my
tank has 300L and I should use 60ml right?
<<Mmm...by my calculations this would equate to a dose of
37.5ml.>>
<The
calculated gallonage is 300 liters? The actual gallonage is actually
appreciably less... due to displacement by rock, gravel...
RMF>
So I did it.
<<Likely you have poisoned your fish with an overdose of
copper...a large partial water change is in order. Be aware
that you have also wiped out your biofiltration. You will
need to do large water changes every couple days...you will also need
to replace your live rock once you finish treating these
fish.>>
I have no freaking test kit to measure copper levels and it is
practically impossible to find one in the local market.
<<A dangerous situation my friend. You need/must be
able to measure the copper in your tank.>>
The instruction on the bottle says to use copper for 2-4
weeks. So
does that mean I should put 60ml of copper sulfate everyday?
<<NO!...add the copper sulphate to a reading (you need a test
kit!) of 15ppm...then maintain this level for 2-4 weeks as
necessary.>>
My clown is on the surface level doing badly. I am lost I
feel like the end of the world.
<<I'm sorry for your/the fishes pain...this could have been
averted with proper quarantine/observation/treatment before placing in
the display.>>
I have 100's of very very tiny white spotty creatures running all
over my tank's glass walls. What are these?
<<Copepods?>>
Are these causing white spots?
<<I think not.>>
How do you kill them off?
<<The copper will do it.>>
If by any chance my Bannerfish survive this crisis will his fin grow
back?
<<If it wasn't cropped off too close to the base it should,
yes.>>
I appreciate you response.
Thanks,
Best regards,
Akila
<<For your sake/the fish’s sake Akila, do learn from this
experience. Slow down a bit and set up a proper quarantine
tank. Regards, EricR>>
Re: White Spots! III - 01/14/06 Dear Eric
<<Hello Akila>>
Do I have to remove my activated carbon from the canister filter
because I am using copper sulfate?
<<Yes>>
Thanks.
Best regards,
Akila
<<Regards, EricR>>
Re: White Spots! IV - 01/16/05 Dear Eric
<<Hello Akila>>
I returned all my fish to the Pet Store today but I didn't get any
cash as expected.
<<I imagine not...>>
Anyway this was the best thing to do as I am starting from scratch from
today onwards.
<<Ok>>
I removed all water from the tank and the filters. I washed
the tank with freshwater but I didn't take the sand out cuz
that's too hard to do.
<<Mmm...>>
Anyways will there be any diseases still in the sand that'll affect
my new cycling process?
<<Will be fine in time.>>
I hate those small white dots that move on my glass. Will
this again be a problem when cycling?
<<I doubt they were the problem the first time round...either
way...shouldn't be a problem now.>>
I never had this problem when I cycled my tank earlier!
<<I don't think your problems arose from how you cycled the
tank, I believe the issues began with lack of proper quarantine and
stocking too quickly.>>
What is the cause of those pests?
<<Please do spend some time reading this and the related
links: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ichart2mar.htm
>>
I am going to take time for the cycling process this
time. Probably wait for about 1 1/2 - 2 months before
introducing expensive fish.
<<More expensive to the fish my friend... Do spend the
time reading/researching.>>
I am going to take everything very slow. Are there any good
tips to start the process?
<<Here ya go: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/fishonsetup.htm
>>
Do you know any website where I can get fish supplies like the
test kits, marine salt etc. online through a credit
card? There are many sites but they don't ship
internationally. Do you know any site where they delivery
supplies to Sri Lanka?
<<Hmm, off-hand no I don't. Try contacting Marine
Depot or Doctor's Foster and Smith...you may also have luck with
one of the UK venders...email them and ask.>>
Thanks my friend for helping me. Really appreciate
everything. I am going to take your advice this time and do
everything extremely slow.
<<Research, research, research...>>
Thanks again & again
Best regards,
Akila
<<Cheers my friend, EricR>>
Ich 1/11/06 I have had a real problem trying to remove
Ich from my aquarium. I have a 5 inch porcupine puffer that
I've had for 6 months and the whole time I've had him it's
been a nasty cycle of him showing systems of ich and me treating
it. I have a 46 bow front with a 3 inch Niger Trigger, a 7
inch snowflake eel, the puffer, and my most recent addition a 4 inch
Imperator Angel. Although they are all aggressive, there is
minimal amounts of disputing and none of it is directed towards the
puffer. My water conditions are fine but the more I treat it
the more bacteria I kill. I've used quick cure, copper,
and I recently succumbed to a fresh water dip. Every time I
finish treating the tank ich always comes back. Is the
puffer the problem or just showing the signs? <I think you are the
biggest problem right now Brian. A 46 gallon tank is too
small for just the puffer alone. They grow quite fast and
attain lengths of up to 1'6". All the fish you have
get quite large and all with the exception of the angel are huge waste
producers. You are going to have to choose which one of
these fish to keep and find homes for the others or get a significantly
larger tank, no less than a 120 gallon. In such small
quarters the disease spreads rapidly. Do not know if you are
aware of it but for an effective cure using copper the treatment must
continue for a minimum of 24 days until all cysts have burst and are
destroyed. Do read here. http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ichartmar.htm and
here on stocking level FAQ's. James (Salty
Dog)>
Brian Brantley
Crypt confusion, knowledge, Nirvana... reading WWM
1/11/06 Thank you in advance for answering my
question. Recently, I treated my Yellow Tang for Ich
successfully. My other fish (Humu Humu Trigger 3'',
Porcupine Puffer 4'', domino Damsel 2'', and Epaulette
Shark 8'') did not show any sign of disease,
<... all are affected, hosts...>
so after 2 weeks of treatment the Yellow Tang went back in the show
tank.
<... the tank "has" the Crypt>
My tank is 300 gallons with Reef Concepts skimmer and a trickle
filter. About 1 week after reintroducing the
Yellow Tang I have noticed tiny black spots all over him.
<Likely Paravortex... see WWM re>
My trigger is scratching as well and may have some spots on him.
<This is almost undoubtedly the Crypt...>
All other fish show no signs of disease.
<They are non-symptomatic... won't stay that way>
All fish eat well and appear healthy. How should I handle
this?
<Don't think you're going to like what I have to
state...>
Remove all fish and freshwater dip?
<That's a beginning>
How long should I keep all them out if I do this? Can I just
remove the 2 infected? If I must remove the shark how should I treat
him? Thank you.
Eric Alspaugh
Winston Salem, NC
<... you've got a bit of reading to do... go, peruse WWM re
Cryptocaryon, Crypt Systems... all fishes need to be removed, the
system left fallow (w/o fish hosts) for a month or more... with
environmental manipulation... the "Black Ich" problem is
easily solved... as you'll soon know. Bob Fenner>
Life Cycle of Cryptocaryon irritans - 01/09/2006 Hi crew,
although I realize there is an absolute wealth of information regarding
Ich on the site, I still have a quick question about it:) I recently
had 2 Percula Clowns become infected and so removed them, put them into
QT for over a month and treated them. In the meantime no other fish in
the main tank has become infected.
<They will in time. It's in your system. These should be removed
to QT as well.>
Would it be safe to assume the tank is no longer infected or could
there still be an outbreak waiting to happen?
<A ticking time bomb I believe.>
(I heard up to 70 days!) Thanks for any help, Steve
Morse.
<Steve, here's a couple of pieces for you to read
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ichartmar.htm
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ichart2mar.htm . Better
to be safe than sorry here. - Josh>
Lost Email & Other ?'s 12/28/05 Bob
& Crew,
<BJ>
I sent the below message on November 30th and have yet to hear from
you.
After reading FAQ's about FAQ's I learned that some email
issues were encountered in November. I will send this to
your hotmail account (you recommended this to another guy that had a
similar problem). I hope this doesn't inconvenience
you.
<No. Thank you for the follow-up and note>
I can honestly say that I have made the most sincere effort to find the
answers to all my questions. I am still at a loss for the
below dilemmas. I will change a few things to update you on
recent happenings.
Thanks & Happy Holidays!
-----------------
Thank you for your site, it is the only addiction that my wife
doesn't seem to mind!
<Mmmmm... you know... this intro. is not new... methinks this was
responded to>
I have a 135 g reef tank with a 75 g sump. It was set up in
January '05 and things had been going very well. I
bought an Achilles tang about 2 months ago and following the advice on
your site, I quarantined him for over a month. During the
quarantine period, he developed a case of ich, which was quickly cured
by the use of Coppersafe. After resetting the QT clock and
waiting 4 weeks, he was introduced into the main tank. Just
recently he developed another case of ich, so I am assuming his tank
mates were carrying the parasite. My existing fish were not
QT'd, but showed no sign of infection for 6 months. I
have had it with ich! I tore down my entire tank (12 hours
I'll never get back) and removed every fish. My fish
included the Achilles, 2 convict blennies (update: 1 convict blenny, I
fear the cats ate a jumper), 1 long fin fairy wrasse, 1 blue spotted
watchman goby, and a mandarin. Every fish except for the
mandarin went into my 35 g QT tank that has been up and running for
over a month, plus I threw in some sponges that were in the sump for
just such an occurrence. The QT has a large Emperor double
bio-wheel and a SeaClone 100. The achilles was in bad shape,
so I had to add Coppersafe immediately. I ran the protein
skimmer very rarely while dosing with copper. The mandarin
is set up in a 2.5 g tank with some live rock that is crawling with
pods and Mysid shrimp. The water in the 2.5 g was from my
main tank. I know the mandarin will crush the contents of
the tank in short order, but it is better than nothing in my
opinion. Update: I have been transferring small pieces of LR
back and forth from the main tank to satisfy the mandarin- seems to be
working well. I have been performing regular water changes
in both tanks. I plan on keeping all inhabitants in QT until
January 27 (2 months).
Question: I have read that it is a good idea to use your display tank
water to perform daily water changes on the QT. If I am
assuming that the display has ich (in the substrate, rocks, etc) I
think this would be a bad idea in my particular
situation. Would that be correct?
<Yes... your system itself is parasitized>
Update: Still waiting on your response. No
display tank water has been added to QT.
<Good... needs to be left out>
Question: There is no copper in the 2.5 g...does there need to be in
order to ensure that the mandarin is not a host? Update: 30
days in QT, no signs of ich.
<Can/could still be a reservoir host. I would leave out of the main
system, contact with other (more susceptible) fishes for a good two
months>
If he is picking at rocks, can I assume he is eating?
<As long as not (too) thin>
Also, I am getting anxious to put the mandarin back in the display on
account of his eating habits. The 27th will be 30
days. Good idea or should I wait 2 months for him as
well?
<Oh! Yes>
Keep in mind that eliminating ich is my primary concern.
<Understood>
Question: I have read that some fish, in particular Tangs, are
sensitive to copper.
<Yes... they're about a six on a scale of ten re such
sensitivity>
The achilles is looking much better after 2 days in the coppered up
water. How long should the treatment last? (1 capful of
Coppersafe per 4 gallons of water)
<Two weeks>
Update: After 3 weeks I started to perform the water
changes without replacing the Coppersafe. All seems to be
well in the QT.
I haven't changed any filtration media, so I am assuming trace
amounts of copper are still around on day 30. Can I be sure
of ich elimination?
<Mmm, not absolutely, no>
Last Question: Both my tank and sump are buzzing with a
seemingly infinite number of Mysid shrimp. Is it possible to
have too many Mysid shrimp?
<Practically... no>
I fear this is a stupid question, but I
don't see the lack of predators affecting amphipods/copepods in the
same way. Pod population seems to have gone down
substantially.
Thank you once again for your time, it is very much appreciated.
PS- just a suggestion, but wouldn't it be even more helpful if the
search string results directed you to the title of the question where
the key word is located, rather than just the FAQ #, for
example? No offense intended, just a suggestion.
<A good suggestion... but for two difficulties... the search tool is
not of our making (it's Googles) and often the titles/subjects
aren't descriptive enough to not at all relevant...>
BJ Wincott
<Bob Fenner>
No Sugar Coating on this one: Just Plain’ole Poor
Husbandry 12/24/05 <Adam J’s disclaimer: Reader
Discretion advised.>
Hello
<Hi…..>
I recently moved so to prep for moving my 70 gallon tank, I moved the
regal blue tang, Lopez tang, clown and 4 stripe damsel, carpet anemone,
corals, to a smaller tank.
<Okay...
I moved the 70 gallon, and reset it up with a new wet/dry filter (old
one wasn't powerful enough and water quality was suffering), a uv
filter and new aragonite sand.
<No protein skimmer for such a HEAVY stocking load.>
I dipped all the live rock before the transfer.
<Dipped in what?>
I cycled the tank with 3 small yellow tangs and everything went
well.
<Huh?! Please tell me you’re kidding... no seriously….I have to
know where you got such a horrendous idea. It’s just wrong on so many
levels I don’t even know how to say it in a constructive manner:
1.) NEVER start a nitrogen cycle with live animals, cruel and
unnecessary
2.) Tangs are quite sensitive to water quality, and during the cycle,
that’s about as bad as water quality can get. So even if cycling with
live animals was a good idea (which it isn’t) I would not do it with
tangs.
3.) Quarantine all livestock before introduction into display…tangs
especially are notorious for brining Cryptocaryon into a system.
4.) This tank is too small for 1 adult tang of any species let alone 3
to start.
5.) I doubt three tangs would get along in a 70-gallon tank…and
that’s IF they survive the ammonia, and that’s a big IF.
…..Yet you seem to think everything went well….I apologize, this is
the first time I have seen something like this, I’m normally quite
calm. My friend please read here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/estbiofiltmar.htm In
particular please read the paragraph titled: About Damsels &
Torturing Other Wildlife.>
About 45 days later, chem permitted, I moved everyone in.
<So now we have added a H. Paracanthus (Regal Tang) and another tang
to a 70 gallon tank and other fish and invertebrates as well to an
already inappropriately, overstocked tank.>
Everyone got along well
<Really?>
and the improved water quality had my anemone and corals flourishing. A
week later, I brought home a clown tang (love those guys!)
<…This tang is one of the hardest to keep, not to mention one of
the largest and meanest surgeons out there. This specimen alone needs a
180 gallon tank (minimum) and that’s with no other tangs in the
tank.>
and a starfish from the LFS. Everyone was doing well but 4 days after,
my blue tang (who has HLLE but have had him for 3+ years and never had
any other issues) had white and black ich.
<Honestly……I’m not surprised at all.>
I didn't have a quarantine tank prepped and didn't know to dip
(would have dipped and then quarantined him in retrospect, correct?
what treatment?)
<In retrospect most of these animals should not have been in your
care to begin with, Quarantine should occur before addition to the
display. Please read here: http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-10/sp/feature/index.php
.>
but I did add MelaFix to the water.
<Generally speaking; never treat the display tank.>
Next day the Lopez and the clown tang had white ich
, the following day everyone was doing better and the clown tang had no
visible ich at all.
<Oh no it was there, simply in a different lifecycle, read here:
http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-08/sp/index.php
.>
This morning, all tangs were dead (6! Argh!) but my perc. clown and
damsel are fine and the corals, anemone and starfish all seem to be
fine.
<Your clowns and damsels are still afflicted with
Cryptocaryon.>
So my question is...what now?
<Time to move the remaining fish to quarantine, see the above
articles for more detail.>
It's a new tank and everything appeared to be fine, could it be the
clown tang from the LFS introduced the ich/parasite?
<Or any one of the other unquarantined animals in there as
well.>
Is it likely just the ich or something else I should look into? is
there anything I can do to treat the tank or do I have to empty/start
again?
<LOTS of LARGE water changes and a protein skimmer to start
with. Time to slow down, gain some patience and begin
reading and researching proper methods and responsible aquarium
keeping. Start here www.wetwebmedia.com .>
concerned obviously for the remaining fish and want to neutralize the
problem. I was shocked about the yellow tangs who'd never had any
visible ich whatsoever so I'm uncertain as to that being the
cause.
<In such a small tank there was likely a domino affect, first off if
one fish had crypt/ich they all did, its as simple as that. Since this
tank was overstocked and new I’m sure the nutrients were/are quite
high, one fish dies, then the ammonia spikes and causes another to die
and so on.>
Please advise, and thanks (so sad to lose those guys after the 3+ years
when they seemed so happy initially in the new tank!)
<See the above and research and read vigorously…..I need some
aspirin…..Adam J.>
Re: Kole Tang EMERGENCY 12/24/05 I e-mailed yesterday
about a Kole tang that has an ich infestation.
James instructed to catch him and treat him with
copper. Unable to catch him last night, I added a cleaner
shrimp and a dose of Marine Max - as suggested by my LFS based on his
experience with the product.
Dilemma of the night - he LOOKS better - better color, looks like he
may have eaten, fewer and smaller ich spots,<Fewer ich spots
doesn't mean the parasite is waning. Once they enlarge
they burst into many more individual cells that will be looking for a
host very soon.> etc. But, he is resting
upright on the sand against a rock and breathing pretty hard.
<Doesn't sound very good to me.>
Will a possible chase tonight be his doom before the
ich? The better
color is a big mixed message! <Yes it is. As I said
earlier, if you don't catch and treat he is going to die anyway, so
the choice is yours. Rarely will non-copper based
medications cure a fish infested with ich.> Still try to
catch him and treat with copper? I just don't know where
he stands at this point. Please advise ASAP - I know -
it's two days before Christmas - so I really appreciate
your help that much more. <I've been advising but apparently you
don't want the hassle of removing him which is going to require
removal of most rock so the stress from the catch is minimal. Do
quarantine future purchases for at least 30 days. James (Salty
Dog)>
Thanks,
Misty
Copper As Treatment for Marine Ich. Not Without Research -
12/15/2005 Dear crew,
<Hi there Carlos.>
I've read your articles re Marine Ich.
<Good.>
I understand that the recommendation is to isolate the fishes and treat
them with Copper Sulfate while letting the main tank go fallow. I would
like to know if I could just put the Copper in the main tank because I
don't have the facilities to house all my fishes in a separate
tank.
<Was not covered!?>
Besides, it would be extremely difficult to catch the fishes without
stripping the tank which I don't plan to do.
<Then you should not treat the main tank. Have you read on other
treatments (hyposalinity, increased temp.)?>
I have a 75 gallon fish only with live rocks running.
<Not if you put in Copper.>
Will the copper kill the beneficial bacteria in my filter?
<Yep.>
Lastly, how long should the copper treatment last?
<Not covered either!?>
It is now afflicting my Powder Brown Tang and Brown Tang.
Thanks a lot and more power to you!
Carlos
<Carlos, there's just not enough time or space for me to relay
all you need to know. All of this has been specifically covered and is
waiting in our disease FAQ's. http://www.wetwebmedia.com/mardisindex.htm
Scroll down to the 3rd section Disease Treatments. Perhaps you've
looked in the wrong place before. - Josh>
Ick and Formol 12/15/05 Dear Sirs
Can I use Formol
<A 40% solution of formaldehyde>
to treat ick in a Yellow Tang?
<Not safely>
The dosage, 20 drops for eight litres is ok? This dosage is recommended
for Discus and during one hour with good aeration. An alternative will
be 3 drops for ten litres during 24 hours.
Thanks in advance
Best regards
Flávio
<Do be careful if you proceed... be in constant attendance, ready to
remove the fish from this bath. Do also read re formalin/formaldehyde
use and other means to treat Cryptocaryon posted on WWM. Bob
Fenner>
I'm done with ICH! 12/13/05 Bob & Crew,
I sent the below message on November 30th and have yet to hear from
you.
<Sorry re... have been away, and the Crew has been deluged>
I can imagine how busy you guys are (your own fault- you know too
much!), but I just want to make sure it didn't get lost or some
other computer glitch. I have been reading your site like
crazy and still am at a loss for the below dilemmas. Thanks
& Happy Holidays!
-----------------
Thank you for your site, it is the only addiction that my wife
doesn't seem to mind!
<Heee!>
I have a 135 g reef tank with a 75 g sump. It was set up in
January '05 and things had been going very well. I
bought an Achilles tang about 2 months ago and following the advice on
your site, I quarantined him for over a month. During the
quarantine period, he developed a case of ich, which was quickly cured
by the use of Coppersafe. After resetting the QT clock and
waiting 4 weeks, he was introduced into the main tank. Just
recently he developed another case of ich, so I am assuming his tank
mates were carrying the parasite.
<Very likely>
My existing fish were not QT'd, but showed no sign of infection for
6 months. I have had it with ich! I tore down my
entire tank (12 hours I'll never get back) and removed every
fish. My fish included the Achilles, 2 convict blennies (eel
gobies?),
<Among other names... Pholodichthyids nonetheless>
1 long fin fairy wrasse, 1 blue spotted watchman goby, and a
mandarin. Every fish except for the mandarin
went into my 35 g QT tank that has been up and running for over a
month,
<Where did this last fish "go?">
plus I threw in some sponges that were in the sump for just such an
occurrence. The achilles was in bad shape, so I had to add
Coppersafe immediately. The mandarin is set up in a 2.5 g
tank with some live rock that is crawling with pods and Mysid
shrimp.
<Ah, good>
The water in the 2.5 g was from my main tank. I
know the mandarin will crush the contents of the tank in short order,
but it is better than nothing in my opinion. I will be
performing regular water changes in both tanks.
<Good>
Question: I have read that it is a good idea to use your display tank
water to perform daily water changes on the QT.
<If this is "clean" of parasites...>
If I am assuming that the display has ich (in the
substrate, rocks, etc) I think this would be a bad idea in my
particular situation. Would that be correct?
<Yes>
If so, how long should the tank run fallow before I can
confidently use the display tank water in the
QT?
<A month or two...>
I would appreciate you err on the side of caution! :)
<Two then>
Everything says, 'at least a month' but I never want to
encounter ich again. Nothing in the future will enter my
tank without a proper QT... including corals, inverts, and LR.
<Amen>
Question: How long can the mandarin go without live food?
<If it takes other...>
Should I buy some live brine shrimp to hold him over?
<Worth trying>
Also, there is no copper in the 2.5 g... does there need to
be in order to ensure that the mandarin is not a
host?
<Mmm, the Callionymidae are remarkable for not reservoir hosting
this and other external parasites...>
Question: I have read that some fish, in particular Tangs, are
sensitive to copper. The achilles is looking much better
after 2 days in the coppered up water. How long should the
treatment last? (1 capful of Coppersafe per 4 gallons of water)
<Two weeks>
Last Question: Both my tank and sump are buzzing with a
seemingly infinite number of Mysid shrimp. Is it possible to
have too many Mysid shrimp?
<Not IMO/E>
Thank you once again for your time, it is very much appreciated.
<Welcome>
PS- just a suggestion, but wouldn't it be even more helpful if the
search string results directed you to the title of the question where
the key word is located, rather than just the FAQ #, for example.
<Wish this were so... the actual search tool is not ours, of our
making... is Google itself. I encourage folks to search and use the
cached version with (Boolean composed) terms, thus presenting
highlighted words... easier to further sort through. Cheers, Bob
Fenner>
BJ Wincott
Ich 12/8/05 Greeting from New York and happy
Holidays to the whole crew.
<And to you from Michigan>
I have a 30 Gallon, FOWLR, skimmer, carbon filter, 2 Inches of sand.
Tank has been up and running for 9 months after being cycled. I had an
ich epidemic 2 months into it, killing all fish. 8 weeks later and a
cycled quarantine tank later (used sponges from 30 g), I started again.
I now have 2 false perculas, 1 Royal Gramma, 1 small diamond goby, 1
cleaner shrimp, 2 blue leg hermits, 5 Margarita snails, 6 Nassarius
snails and 5 Trochus snails and one red brittle star.
I do a 5 gallon water change weekly and check levels every other
day.
Three questions:
1) My quarantine tank is 10 gallons. I quarantine each fish for about 2
weeks,
<Not nearly long enough. See here. http://www.wetwebmedia.com/QuarMarFishes.htm>
but notice that the water needs to be changed almost every 3 days
(nitrite levels start showing). Is this normal? or do I need better
filtration.
<Normal with your set up.>
I have a sponge and carbon filter and a powerhead on this tank.
2) I want to get one more fish, but not sure if I can.
<You are real close to the limit of the tank. If I was to add
another fish, it would be a small goby or something on that order. No
angelfish as you mention below. You could probably get away with adding
the lawnmower blenny. Having a sump does improve the carrying capacity
but you don't mention of one being used.>
I was thinking either a small angelfish (between a Coral Beauty or
Flame angel) or an algae eating blenny, since I now have a lot of hair
algae (between Lawnmower or Horned).
3) I tend to clean the inside the tank to clean the algae build up on
the tank (its acrylic) about twice a week. Should I refrain from doing
this? My wife thinks I stick my arm way too much inside the tank
:)
<I really don't see a problem in doing that. I know wives stick
their arms in wallets too many times.>
My suggestion to you for your quarantine tank is to keep a few snails
and crabs in there to keep the denitrifying bacteria active. You
shouldn't see much of a raise in the nitrite when you quarantine a
fish providing it is just one fish being in QT.>
Thanks for your advice, Germán E. Ospina
<You're welcome and Happy Holidays. James (Salty Dog)>
Clownfish, Possible Ick? 11-26-05 I have had my 90 gallon
saltwater fish tank with a 30 gallon refugium for a year now. Water
quality and everything else is perfect. In the tank are 90 pounds of
live rock, a snowflake eel -12inches, clown trigger-6inches, Huma Huma
trigger-5inches, dragon wrasse-4 inches, 2 maroon clowns about 3
inches, bamboo shark- 5 inches, and a domino about 3 inches. In the
future I am planning on upgrading to a larger tank.
All have been perfectly healthy for a long time until we recently
noticed two decent sized white spots on the best fish in our tank, the
clown trigger. One spot is on upper tail fin, and the other on the
fishes side. The fish seems to be acting fine not scratching or rubbing
and is eating well, but these spots are very recent. Normally after he
eats his color fades, this time we noticed that he turned very dark,
black were he is normally white. That is the only change we have seen
in his behavior and that was only one instance. I read you article on
treating ick, so the question here is what to do with all the
livestock?
I have a 30 gallon quarantine tank set up but it is impossible to fit
all my livestock in it. Is there a way to treat in my display tank?
Also will it affect my bamboo shark or live rock? Any advice you have
would be greatly appreciated.
<Wait. Wait until the outbreak gets to be too much for
your fish before doing anything drastic. In all honesty many fish are
ich carriers and they will sometimes show ich when stressed, but it
will go away or they will deal with it on their own. So, my advice is
wait. Travis>
<<Uhh, this would NOT have been my approach, here....
Something, some new/recent introduction, brought the parasite. An
aquarium absolutely CAN be "ich-free". At this point,
quarantining/treating all fish except the shark and eel would be my
tactic - and investing in a MUCH larger tank before long....
-Sabrina>>
Sick fish... Crypt 11/16/05 Good Morning,
First I want to thank you for all of your advice up to this point. It
has been great! I knew sooner or later it would
happen...............and I guess the only bright side of this event is
that I only have (had) 2 fish in the tank. 1 day ago I noticed my Flame
Angel acting strange...... staying near the top of the tank, not
gazing
<Grazing?>
like it use to. This am
<AM>
I found him at the bottom of the tank. He had the dusting of white
spots, fins were frayed. I have since move the other fish, (clown) to
the QT tank. I'm planning on treating with copper and slowly
lowering the salinity from 1.026 down to about 1.015. I'm I on the
right track?
<You're on one, but not the one I'd take>
The main tank values look like this(55 gallons) been up since May. LR
with CBS, 1 BTA, Frogspawn, Xenia
salinity 1.026
ammonia .25
nitrite 0
nitrate 0
temp 79-82
I just changed out 4 gallons a day ago and have been doing that every
week. Does ick move this fast?
<Can, yes>
Could it possible marine velvet?
<Yes... could even be both>
I thought I would have a little more time to catch it?
<Mmm, no>
My understanding is I don't have to treat the main........but
continue doing water changes etc...and wait at least a month before
introducing any fish.
<...>
What about the QT tank? Once (hopefully) my clown looks clean, how do I
go about cleaning that tank and how long should I wait until a fish can
be QT in that?
Thank you once again!
<Lay some time aside and read here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/mardisindex.htm.
Esp. the sections on Cryptocaryon... and soon. Bob Fenner>
Sick fish... Crypt... Ick problem and new arrivals
11/16/05 Hi,
I emailed you earlier this morning about a case of ick (I think) in my
tank. Since that time I have moved the clown (only 2 fish in the
tank, the Flame Angel died) to the QT tank and have applied a treatment
of rid-ick, lowered the salinity from 1.026 to 1.022
<I would use other medication... would not drop the spg this
much/fast>
and raising the temp gradually to 84-85. I ordered some scarlet red
hermits and margarita snails last week online. They should arrive in a
day or two. What should I do with them??
<?>
Can I put them in my main tank? I have always QT everything in the past
but now my QT tank is not available.
Any suggestions?
<Sorry to state, in my advanced decrepit mental condition, I
can't recall folks circumstances twixt emails... I would either
place these animals in a non-treated system, give them away, ask
someone to hold them for me, or contact the shipper and delay... Bob
Fenner>
Re: Sick fish... Crypt ... ick problem and new arrivals, We Can
Only do so Much via Email Messaging 11/16/05 Ok, you
wouldn't not use Rid-Ick....... sooo..... is it a secret or can you
tell me which product/products you would suggest using?
<Is posted...>
I'm trying to do the best I can here. I'm not looking for a pat
on the back, just some advice. Sorry to be wasting your time.
<Only I can do this. Please... learn to/use the indices, search tool
on WWM. There is much needed "ancillary", related input...
that cannot be easily related going back/forth... BobF>
WHY IS THIS HAPPENING!!!!!!???? Clownfish disease
11/9/05 I DON'T UNDERSTAND THIS!!!!!! My BRAND
SPANKIN NEW Clowns have once again, stupid white specs on their dorsal
fins (along clear part).
I don't get why this keeps happening. I am treating the entire tank
with Kordon's Ick Attack because I have heard many success stories
with it.
<<Cannot find what is in this stuff, but they sell as a
"cure-all", am incredulous with all such products whose
manufacturers make such claims. MH>>
Plus, the Clowns are still active and eating and I don't want to
further stress them with catching, copper etc....
Any input is greatly appreciated
Thanks!
Jon
<Mmm, these spots could be "nothing"... if other fishes
appear unaffected, infested, I wouldn't panic, treat with anything.
Bob Fenner>
Re: WHY IS THIS HAPPENING!!!!!!???? 11/9/05 Thanks
Bob!
So do you think that I should just do a water change and put my carbon
back in? Leave it alone.
<Yes. This is what I would do>
The Royal Gramma appears to be fine, but then again I can't always
get a good look at it. My last clowns got the same issue and they
are dead. The Ich attack says it will not affect animals unaffected and
that it can clear, fungus, flagellates (sp), and other infections as
well.
<Mmm, I don't know how such a thing is possible...>
I just don't want to have to deal with another two clown deaths
here. That would mean 6 clowns. Yea, its sick.
Thanks for any help.
Jonathan
<Are these clownfish tank-bred? You might want to look around for
another source. Cheers, Bob Fenner>
Re: WHY IS THIS HAPPENING!!!!!!???? 11/9/05 Yes
sir. Tank bred. I have bought each pair at a different, reputable
dealer. Obviously its something I am doing wrong.
<Mmm, not necessarily Jon. Many difficulties "show up
later" that are of little cause of purchasers... for instance
"chilled" livestock... that has been subjected to cold may
look fine for a several days to weeks, but can be doomed no matter what
you do.>
Thanks for your help!
Jon
<Welcome. Bob Fenner>
Re: WHY IS THIS HAPPENING!!!!!!???? 11/9/05 I
suppose. By the way, I just picked up your book. Great read. Best one I
have read yet! -Jon
<Glad you are enjoying, gaining by it. BobF>
Big Oops! Reading time! 11/9/05 Ok, Its Ich. My
Gramma has it now, so what course of action do you think I should take.
I just put carbon back in the filter and did a water change. This just
keeps happening so I really don't know what to do. I only have a 10
gallon tank which could be used as a QT and I don't know how
suitable that it. I would have to get a sponge filter too.
<... Uhhhhh>
This is getting so stressful. I cannot believe that I did not QT the
Gramma. AHHHHH Never again will I do that. What if I treat all the fish
with Clout. I'm just terrified to use copper.
<<I'd be more inclined to use copper rather than Clout,
that is strong stuff. How about hyposalinity here?
Marina>>
<Take a few deep breaths... a few more...>
Thanks so much for your help in my mistakes. I am a stubborn SW
novice.
-Jon
<Well... be an informed stubborn SW novice. Read on WWM re
ich/Cryptocaryon, its treatment... Bob Fenner>
What Do You Recommend? 11/9/05 Would you recommend
the Medication, Clout??
Thanks!
-Jon
<I recommend reading>
Hello! Read, Read, Read, Because It's all Here!
11/9/05 Hey,
Earlier I inquired about using Clout to treat Ich because I really
prefer not to use copper. The Ingredients in Clout are
Phenylbenzylindene, dimethyl, phosphonate, methylnitro and inert
ingredients as non-toxic binders.
What do you think???
Now, I know this is a stupid question but I should not just remove my
crabs and starfish and treat the whole tank because It will kill my
Live rock and Sand, Right? Or pose other problems in the long run?
Thanks!
Jon
<Read>
ICH INFO! Who Are YOU? 11/8/05 Hey!
<<Don't yell at us. MH>>
Thanks in advance or the help I will be getting! Anyways I tried to
find as much literature I can about how to differentiate between Ick,
Oodinium and secondary bacterial infection. All info I could get was
the ick has spots
something like a talcum powder but as per my knowledge this power is
visible to naked eye only after they have stated on the body and grown
in size. How does one identify them in the earlier stage?
<Scratching....fast gill movement>
I believed that the fish scratching against something means they have
the ick on them but that's the same symptom they show when they
have Oodinium as well as secondary bacterial infection. So how does one
identify what the fish is suffering from?
<I provided you with some links... all the info you need can be
found through those links and the WWM website!>
<<Who "I"? Where are the links.. but more
importantly, who are you?>>
Could one fish be a carrier without showing any symptoms and eating
fine? (I don't mean a newly introduced but someone who has always
been in there)
<Yes...I have had fish that have had ich eat just like
normal>
Pictorial explanation would be really really appreciated. Please help
me on this because I don't want to end up treating my fish with
something they don't have. I personally don't really like the
combination of fish and chemicals. And Bob trust me u need to be
worshipped! Thanks a million!
<Bob says thanks :)>
<Here are some helpful links http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ichart2mar.htm
<<That's one link, here's two, but who are
you?? Whoever you are, you should know enough to capitalize
your "I"s and first names. MH>>
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ichartmar.htm
>
Whacking Ich Once And For All! 11/4/05 Hello
<Hi there! Scott F. with you today!>
I just started my first saltwater tank 5 months ago, after 1 year of
research and preparation. My tank is doing very well, it is a 90 gallon
reef with:
Over 100 lbs of LR
5" DSB
2 Yellowtailed Damsels
2 Percula Clownfish
1 Yellow Tang
1 Royal Dottyback
1 Regal Tang
2 LPS hard corals (Frogspawn and Bubble)
Pulsing and Waving Hand Xenia
Different kinds of polyps and mushrooms
30+ Trochus Snails
2 Cleaner Shrimp
After purchasing my Regal Tang, I placed him in my QT tank for a month,
then placed him in my main tank, but I still got ich.
<Bummer, but it does happen with these touchy fish.>
For about 2 months now he has ich, but is very healthy. He will have
about 5-10 spots a day, some days none at all. Also, my Yellow Tang
will have 1 on its tail, and some days it won't. My other fish show
no signs of ick or weakness.
<Again, a rather common occurrence, in my experience.>
I was wondering if I can just take out my 2 Tangs and treat them if the
other fish show no signs.
<You could, but the stress of removing these guys may be problematic
for the other fishes. If you are going to get some of the fish out to
attack ich, you might as well deal with the headaches and get 'em
all!>
It would be hard to catch the Damsels and Dottyback unless I rip apart
the tank. I was planning to keep the Tangs separate for about 2-3
months to treat, to "fallow" the main tank and to see if the
other fish developed ich. Do you think this would be ok, or should I
rip apart the tank?
<Well, the definition that I embrace for "fallow" means NO
fish at all in the display. Not fun, a real pain, but a legitimate (and
I think, the only), effective way to attack this parasitic disease in
the display. Once ich is in your tank, it's IN your tank, and the
other fishes may be susceptible. Granted, Tangs do have a propensity to
contract this disease when seemingly every other fish is healthy, and
sometimes they even fight it off, only to get it again, with the other
fishes rarely, if ever showing signs of the illness.
Nonetheless, my opinion is that if you are going to
the trouble to get the Tangs out, you might as well make a stand,
endure the pain, and get EVERYONE out and attack the problem once and
for all. The truly "fallow" tank will deprive the causative
protozoa the opportunity to find hosts (your fishes) to complete their
life cycle, making this a highly successful way of managing the
disease. Granted, no treatment is 100% certain to be effective, but
this method has worked well for us, and many hobbyists, for
decades.>
Also I read that tangs are very sensitive to copper, so I'm
planning to use a non-copper medication like Kick-Ick in my QT, do you
know of any other non-copper medication or should I use copper?
<I would not use Kick Ich, myself. However, you could use
formalin-based medications. Copper, although potentially rough on
Tangs, can be used successfully, and without collateral damage to the
Tangs, if the manufacturer's protocol is followed precisely (and
copper levels monitored rigorously.
It's your call.
Either way, you are taking the correct approach by removing the fish
for treatment outside the display. Best of luck to you! For more on ich
treatment, do read our friend Steven Pro's writings on the topic
hear and in "Reefkeeping", as well as my own ramblings on the
"two front" approach to attacking ich here on WWM. Good luck
in your fight! Regards, Scott F.>
Attacking Ich Without Collateral Damage! 11/3/05 Hi
guys,
<Scott F. your guy tonight!>
I just noticed I have an ich breakout in my tank and I need your
opinion. The tank is a 75 gal FOWLR and contains a Yellow Tang, Flame
Angel, Maroon Clown, Lyretail Anthias and Green Chromis. For now only
the Tang and Angel are showing signs of ich.
My question is: Considering the potential sensitivity to copper of
Angels and Tangs, which approach do you recommend? The copper treatment
in a QT, leaving the tank fallow or hyposalinity (dropping the MT spg
to 1.010 for 4 weeks). The problem with the copper treatment is the
sensitivity and also the fact that I only have a 10 gal QT which may be
small for these 5 fish and it may be extremely difficult to keep
ammonia/nitrites level
low/at zero. What do you think? You're help is very much
appreciated. Thank you.
Steve
<Well, Steve- you sort of answered your own question. Yes, copper
sensitivity is an issue for Tangs and Angels. I have personally
employed copper sulphate as a treatment with these fishes without
incident, but not everyone agrees that this is a good idea. Tangs, in
particular, have digestive fauna that are damaged by continuous
exposure to copper. I am not a big fan of hyposalinity, having
experienced very mixed results with this technique in the past. I am a
firm believer in the "two front approach" to fighting ich:
Removing all of the fishes to a separate tank, or tanks, for treatment
with copper sulphate or formalin, and letting the main tank go
"fallow", without fishes, for about a month.
You could still try hyposalinity in the tank(s) where your fishes are
being kept. If you do not have a large enough tank to accommodate all
of your fishes, consider inexpensive "Rubbermaid" containers,
or other plastic containers of various sizes. They serve as excellent
emergency "hospitals" for fish. Do read up on the WWM site
for many possible "alternative" ich treatment methodologies.
Best of luck! Regards, Scott F.>
Cryptocaryon irritans I have a recently cycled, now
stable 46-gal FOWLR tank. Along with a dozen or so mix of snails and
hermit crabs I have a Perc Clown and a Hippo Tang.
<This specimen will outgrow the tank eventually.>
The Tang has Ich (I did not properly QT it first - I've
learned).
<Ok no lecture for you tonight.>
The Clown looks perfectly fine.
<Chances are it is still infected.>
Can I QT the Hippo only or must I remove both fishes from the display
tank?
<Yes all fish must be removed.>
That is, might the Theronts die off with only the single Clown
available?
<No any fish food…..that is any fish will be food for
Cryptocaryon, read here: http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-08/sp/index.php.>
<<Do also look up Terry Bartelme's, and Steven Pro's
works/articles - both give excellent, pertinent information not only on
life cycle, but on control and treatment. MH>>
Thanks,
Brad
<You are Welcome, Adam J.>
A Tricky "Ich"y Situation Hi Crew.
<Hello Steven, you've got Justin with you tonight.>
Let me say that my problems are a function of actions from
Pre-WetWebMedia knowledge.
<Mmm. Well you have found us now, and seem to know what to do for
the future so that's good.>
I started a very expensive (around $10,000.00) investment in a nice 215
gallon marine aquarium with all of the gadgets, 40 watt gamma UV
sterilizer, Tonga Live rock (250 lbs.), 50 gallon wet/dry with built on
refugium with crushed Tonga live rock/Caulerpa, power heads, Iwaki
pumps, PC's with moonlights, DSB with live sand, Turboflotor 1000
skimmer (really providing a good amount of daily skimmate), etc..
<Tis a very nice setup. I wish I had the money to spend on such a
system... but enough fantasizing, onto the issue.>
You ask what is my problem?
<Hee Hee, well generally people don't write to us to complain
about the food.>
Well I cycled the tank and began adding expensive fish.. large 30"
Zebra Moray, 4" Orange Shoulder Tang, 2.5" Chevron Tang,
5.5" Fiji Bicolor Rabbitfish, and 5" Longnose Butterfly. No
QT process, dips or anything other than a good long acclimation process
that includes a drip acclimation after equalizing the temperature.
<Ok, stop here, I like the drip acclimation you've done a gold
star for effort, however, no q/t? on such expensive fish.....
ouch!>
The fish were bought from The Marine Center and Marine Depot live, both
of which I researched and have good reputations.
<Good that you researched, but no store can guarantee parasite free
fish. And no tank is parasite free either, just in a balanced stasis
that keeps everyone happy....>
<<There is good empirical data that shows tanks can indeed be
parasite-free. Takes diligence and care to achieve.
MH>>
Back to my problem. I think I have ICH! I have a few tiny white spots
on my Chevron and what may be a few spots on the tail fin of my
Butterfly.
<Mmmhmm, wouldn't surprise me to have stress ich with these fish
and no q/t. the stress of shipping alone is enough to trigger a
virulent period of ich multiplication.>
Also I have tiny looking white granules or white eggs on a few of my
rocks and sides of my tank (could this be Ich too)?
<No, ich is invisible to the naked eye, too small to see. you are
likely seeing various copepods or forms of coralline algae. What you
see on your fish are the scabs from the ich being there, where they
irritated the mucus membrane.>
So far everyone is eating well (except Butterfly who hasn't eaten
since I put him in 4 days ago)
<Butterflies generally do the worst in shipping and are the first
fish to go on a hunger strike, also being from an online store who
knows what they fed it or even if they got it to eat, since the fish
come in one day and generally are sold before the week is out. Try
clams or oysters on the half shell from your local seafood
supermarket.>
and very active. No labored breathing or scratching yet. For the sake
of this email let's assume I have ich and cannot employ a QT
tank.
<Mmmm this is doubly bad. must have some way to separate your
inhabitants from your corals LR etc as no viable treatment for ich is
safe around these things.>
Is there anything that is both safe and effective for treating ich in
my main tank that will not kill my live rock (250 lbs.)?
<Unfortunately no.>
I have heard of Rid Ich and garlic as treatments but do not know if
these are a waste of time.
<They are. Rid ich generally only seems to rid you of money better
spent on another product.>
Also is scraping or scratching almost always a symptom or
sign?
<No some fish do scrape or scratch around the rockwork and bottom
but a constant scratching or scraping is not good as a rule of thumb.
Look into cleaner shrimp or cleaner gobies like the neon cleaner goby.
(NOT the Cleaner Wrasse, this fish doesn't survive in captivity
without constant fish parasites etc to remove, without them they die
off.).
The shrimp and the goby should help keep things under control but
unless it is a true cleaner shrimp the one with a red band down its
back and a white line down the middle of the red band, its not
guaranteed to clean. coral banded shrimp are an example of one who may
clean but usually doesn't.>
One last question: my DSB of fine live Aragonite sand releases bubbles
when the eel or hermit crabs stir it up. Is this releasing methane from
decaying matter?
<Yes, is possible, however methane usually is formed deeper in the
DSB where the anaerobic bacteria (oxygen free) live as they produce it
and a few other gasses as byproducts of breaking tank wastes down. It
is fine as long as you do not get a very large trapped bubble , and the
tank has a lot of surface water movement to replenish o2 and release
co2 and nitrogen from the water.>
I hope you can give me some sound advice as I have become quite the
fanatic with this hobby, spending several hours per day and I am really
fond of my fish and would hate to have a total wipe out. Your help and
advice is greatly appreciated.
Thanks
Steven
<Please look into a hospital/Quarantine tank to add to your
investment, and q/t all fish for 4 weeks before adding them to your
system. One bad move and as you have seen a very expensive waste of
fish can happen. Hope it gets resolved.>
<Justin (Jager)>
Oh Dear, Now ICH?!?!?! Defiantly Dipping with Methylene
Blue - 10/17/05 Hey Bob, Travis, Steve, and everyone else!
<<Hello, Travis here.>>
Once again let me express how grateful I am for your help. It
means a lot. I seem to be a little unlucky so far in the
Marine Tank experience. My clown who has internal parasites has
apparently now developed Ich.
<<You may need to stop internal parasite medication and do a
large water change to attack the ich. Unfortunately your clown is not
eating which makes this a harder situation. That will have to be a call
you make on your own.>>
Great. Now, the real trouble, is that his mate back in the tank,
has Ich too!
<<Not good.>>
So, now,,, I can see the spots on his dorsal fin and around his
head. How far along am I now with Ich. Will my Chromis get it?
<<Ich is a nasty critter, but fish can fight it off if they are
in good health. Many fish have ich, but they exist in a delicate
balance with the parasite. Ich usually rears its head when something is
stressing the fish.>>
I have about 10 pounds of rock, is that contaminated now?
<<The short answer is no. Ich makes cysts and the cyst will be in
your rock, but running the tank fallow will allow them to hatch and
die.>>
I read through your entire ICH section on WWM but cant seem to
target it exactly to this situation. I have a 29gal tank. My
Chromis does not show any signs of Ich but I think he might get
it. I have inverts in the tank so how do I make sure that the
tank is rid of the parasite, will letting it run fallow work?
<<To clear your display tank, you will need to let it run fallow
for 6-8 weeks. Use that time to think about why QTing is extremely
important.>>
What do I do with the infected fish?
<<Infected (All) fish should be treated with a chelated copper
solution. Cupramine would be my suggestion. I would also suggest
raising the temp in the QT a few degrees (83-84 degrees, but add an
airstone as this and the copper will remove oxygen) and lowering the
salinity slowly(1.015). Do not go to true hyposalinity unless you have
treated fish, in this manner, before as mixing hyposalinity and copper
is a very delicate situation.>>
I take it I need to perform formalin dips now but I defiantly
will be dipping with Meth Blue from now on along with quarantine.
<<Use Cupramine for ich and formalin for brook. Dip when
appropriate.>>
I made the stupid mistake of thinking that because my fish was
tank raised he would be ok.
<<You have to remember what systems they were in between the
breeder and your home display. Wholesale and fish store systems all
house wild and captive bred fish. This means every fish is exposed to
what the wild ones bring with them.>>
I hate being a novice.
<<We all start somewhere and many of us wish we could start
over...>>
Any help is always appreciated.
Thanks! -Jon
<<TravisM>>
Re: Oh Dear, Now ICH?!?!?! - 10/17/05 Part 2 Thanks
Travis for that very thorough explanation/procedure!
<<Always glad to help.>>
This may be good news.
<<Let's hope so.>>
Obviously I have stressed these fish out to the point in which
they were vulnerable to the parasite. Probably from me putting my
hands in the tank so much. Anyhow. This morning, my female clown
had pretty visible spots on her head and fins. Left her alone
because I had to go to school. However when I came home, she was
swimming around with her friend and I could not see any of the
spots visible anymore. Maybe a tiny bit on the fin where it had
begun, but to the point where it is very faint, even at
angles.
<<Ich will be less visible during the day and cyst are most
visible at night or early morning.>>
So at this point, I don't want to further stress or re-stress
the fish and possibly allow the parasite to attack again by going
after the her with the net and putting her in QT, nor do I want
to scare the other fish and make them vulnerable by doing this.
(green net in tank is always cause for alarm.)
<<Throw that green net in the trash. Try to fine a white small
pore net or better yet catch your fish in a specimen container. Those
green nets are very sharp and can really damage fish, especially their
eyes (Corneal abrasions=Popeye).>>
So should I just leave my tank alone? See what happens. Isn't Ich
always present in water and fish just contract it when they are
weak?
<<I would leave them for a few days. Ich is in most systems, but
if you run the tank fallow for 8 weeks you should be able to clear the
tank.>>
Basically I am asking will my Chromis get it just from being in
the water or only if he gets stressed out?
<<He can get it by being in the same water. Stress just increases
the likelihood and severity of infection.>>
And my overall question is, if the fish resume normal health and
behavior, what's the situation with the cysts on the rock and
the sand, leave it? Will it die if my fish are strong? And will
my tank re- stabilize from the parasite without me having to tear
down and remove decor, rocks etc...
<<To truly rid the tank you would need to sterilize everything.
The second best and most realistic choice is to run the tank fallow and
allow the parasites to die off. The third option is to let the fish
reach a balance with the parasite, but remember that any new fish added
or decrease in immunity of your current fish will most likely turn into
an ich outbreak.>>
Perhaps this may turn out ok?
<<Might need to help it along, but you will be fine.>>
Thanks again for your guidance, Jonathan
<<TravisM>>
Tang with Ick Question 10/11/05 <<Stan, some of
my/other input. Cheers, BobF>> Hello Crew:
<Hi Stan, James here today>
I currently have a purple tang and a desjardini tang in my QT
(20gal)
<<RMF would NOT mix two tang species in QT>>
which I plan on adding to my 150 gal reef system once they pass QT.
They've been there for about a week and are both eating like little
pigs and seem to be doing fine. I've been feeding them a variety of
foods which includes Spectrum Thera-A Anti-Parasitic Formula, Julian
Sprung's Seaveggies, Ocean Nutrition Marine Pellets Formula 2, Kent
Marine Platinum Reef Herbivore Fish Food which are sometimes soaked in
Vita Chem.
However, in the last couple of days, I've noticed some white spots
on my purple tangs body and fins. Can't really see if the
Desjardini has these same spots or not because the spots are not as
contrasting as on the purple tang. I assume it's ick, or the
beginning of it. So I looked here and read some articles that
hyposalinity and/or a cleaner shrimp might do the trick without
medications. So I added a shrimp a few days ago and then this weekend
started researching how to do the hyposalinity treatment.
<<Not with the shrimp present. RMF>> Instead of
finding out how, I found more articles claiming that hyposalinity was a
waste of time and wouldn't work long term. So I guess my question
is, how would one go about treating ick long term in QT? Isn't that
what a QT tank is for?
<<Not really what "quarantine is for"... a period to
review, observe health, behavior, possibly treat there/then... but also
for "rest". RMF>>
I know everyone has different opinions, but what do most people do?
Medicate? If so with what? Any help would be very much
appreciated.
<Stan, if it were me, rather then stress the fish out with
hyposalinity treatment, I would treat with copper. A copper test kit is
a must along with daily testing to insure an effective and safe level
is kept. Recommended dose to maintain is 0.015-0.020ppm.
<<Dude! Of what? Free copper/cupric ion... PLEASE understand
that there is a difference in reading/s with chelated copper and their
corresponding kits. RMF>>
I would treat for a minimum of 21 days @ 80 degree temperature. The ick
cyst casings are unaffected by the copper so we have to wait till all
hatch out where at this stage they can be effectively killed by the
copper. The ich that is embedded in the skin of the fish also is pretty
much unaffected by the copper. Only in the swimming stage, after
hatching and when they have to find a host, is when they are most
vulnerable to copper. James (Salty Dog)>
Tang with Ick Question ? - Follow-up 10/11/05 Thanks James
(Salty Dog):
OK. So a treatment with copper it is. Any recommendations as to what
copper brand / type to use? Isn't there chelated or non chelated
?
<Yes, there are chelated/non chelated types. If it were me I'd
go with Aquarium Systems Sea Cure Copper treatment along with their
FasTest Copper Test Kit. Fortunately for me I've never had to treat
a tank in 10+ years, but if the problem arose, the above would be my
choice.>
<<... three weeks... with an unchelated copper... on tangs? I
would NOT do this... I'd go with two weeks, and a chelated
make/model with accompanying at least daily tests. RMF>>
And I assume that I need to move the cleaner shrimp to my main tank
since he won't make it thru the copper treatments right ?
<Stan, all inverts must be removed. Google our WWM site on copper
treatment for more info. James (Salty Dog)>
Re: Tang with Ick Question ? - Follow-up 10/13/05 Thanks
for the quick replies James (Salty Dog), very much
appreciated.
<You're welcome>
But I'm a bit confused here and was hoping that you could maybe
point me in the right direction.
Just as a reminder, I've left the replies back and forth as a
memory refresher. After talking on Monday, I went out to my local pet
stores looking for copper but could not find any, believe it or not
they were all out. So I ordered it mail order that night.
Well here's the confusing thing. On Tuesday, when I checked in on
them and watched them for awhile to see how they were doing, etc. I
noticed that my Desjardini tang was laying on its side and the cleaner
shrimp was going to town on him. After taking a closer look, I saw that
the purple tang no longer had white spots on him either (this is while
the lights were on). Am I going nuts ?
<<James... respond to the question/s! Not going nuts... the
"spots" are reactions... do cycle on/off... RMF>>
Unfortunately, I noticed that my Desjardini tang had a two spots
missing from the top/rear of his fin. I'm guessing Mr. purple is
the reason. However, when I checked on them this morning (lights still
off) the purple tang looks like it has
some type of spots on it (not white), and its body was a bit
discolored. The Desjardini on the other hand, seems like the spots that
were missing on its fins are filling in already.
So here is my dilemma. Do I treat the tangs with copper ?
<Stan, this treatment must last at least 21 days to be effective and
are you using a test kit to insure safe and effective
doses?>
Why do I see spots one day and not the next? Will treating them, if
they don't have anything be a bad idea or more harmful then good
?
<You have gazillions of cysts laying on the bottom waiting to hatch
and find a buddy. Continued treatment is necessary to kill all the
hatchings.>
And do I keep pushing my luck in trying to keep two tangs in the same
tank ? I'm sure the 20gal isn't ideal but I'm hoping that
the extra space in the 150 will allow them to get along.
<The 150 should be fine, you have to accept the fact there will be
occasional aggression. Its recommended that no two alike tangs be kept
together.>
I know it's pushing it. Could go either way. They could get along,
with the occasional "I'm boss" reminders, or they may
destroy one another.
<<This is something you NEVER want to see. If the two
tangs are also close in size, you are probably pushing it too far with
their compatibility, this is not what could be considered
"conscientious". MH>>
Should I separate them in the QT tank ? Should I get rid of one of them
and just go with one ?
<If the aggression gets up to the next level, then I'd probably
trade one in. James (Salty Dog)>
I know there's a lot of questions here, many of which are hard to
answer, with no definite yes or no. But I'd really appreciate any
input that you guys might have.
Thanks in advance
<You're welcome. Do compatibility research in the future if you
are considering buying two alike fish.>
First bout with ICK 10/8/05 Hey guys...it's 3:10 am
in Birmingham Alabama and I'm not so patiently staring at 3 fish (2
Tangs and a Lion) in a QT. I have searched the site but failed to find
the "dumb question" section so I have to ask.
I'm dealing with my first bout of ICK and have been/am going
through the quarantine process, dips and treatment, (as outlined on WWM
site) etc., however my question lies in the show tank.
I plan to leave it fallow as you call it, but everything I read said to
remove "fish" (here is the dumb question) I still have 2 sand
stars a chocolate chip star and 5-6 hermit crabs and a small stingray
(also about 50# live rock and sand) still in the
tank. Are any of these considered "hosts" to ICK?
Can the tank be considered "fallow" with them in it? Or do
they need to go into a QT all to themselves?
Thanks in advance for taking time for a newbie (love the
site)!
<Mark, the stingray will have to go in QT. The inverts can stay.
Allow at least 30 days before putting any fish back into the tank. An
elevated temperature (80-82) helps speed the process up. James (Salty
Dog)>
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