Re: Whitespot and Decorator Crabs 7/28/05 <Rebecca: I had to rephrase your questions so they'd make sense in context and the reading would flow better. Hope you don't mind. :-)> Why would my 48 be considered a bit too small for my cow? <They get large. 48 gallons is not large enough for one at full adult size.> Moo, as we call him, is only an inch and a half long. <Moo'll get bigger.> We were told by the supplier that they only grew in line with the tank size. <Technically, yes. But that is due to something called "stunting," during which the environment is so small they can not attain full adult size simple because they'd not fit. Stunting should be avoided at all costs. When purchasing a fish, always take into account its adult size, not its current size, before introducing it.> We thought our tank was quite big? <It is of a decent size, but these fish are used to the ocean.> Could the clownfish's mysterious death be due to the toxins the cow fish may release, of which I have read up on since my first mail? <I doubt it. If it had been, I'd expect more mysterious life-loss, though it is still a possibility.> Here are the actual test results as of last night: <Good to see :-) > Ammonia. 0.125 <A bit high. Ammonia should always read 0.> Nitrate - 5 <Fine.> Nitrite - 0 <Fine.> PH - 8 <Could be a little higher, not a big deal, though.> Alkalinity - normal <Normal's not a measure. :-) > Temperature - 80 degrees <Fine.> Salt - 1.022 <A tiny bit low, not a big deal if it's fish only.> We turned off the skimmer because it said on the box. <Touché, on your part. :-) > Also we took the carbon filter out as the dealer told us to. <Understood.> Can this be replaced and skimmer put back on now the Ich has gone completely from the cow? <I would, though I'd not suspect the ich to be totally gone, as ich has a nasty tendency to come back when all seems well due to its life cycle.> It says two days of treatment on the box, but we have also been advised for another two weeks because of "free floaters" ? <Yep. Ich has an interesting life cycle. 1) One parasite finds one fish, attaches itself. 2) White welt becomes noticeable at the point of attachment 3) Parasite feeds off the fish's blood, thrives 4) Parasite drops off. 5) Parasite "explodes," releasing hundreds of baby parasites into the water. This is the only point during which they are vulnerable. 6) Parasites find fish, attach themselves...> So much differing advice, its hard to know what to do for the best. <Ah, yes, but it is the wealth of advice that makes this hobby so wonderful.> Thank you very very much for all your advice. <Welcome.> It's so hard to get proper advice. <Indeed.> books just broach on subjects. You've been brilliant!!!!!!!!!!!!!! <Why thank you.> Rebecca <Mike G>

Simple Cryptocaryon questions 7/22/05 Hi guys, <Allan> I have set up my 30G quarantine tank for the treatment of ich whilst I upgrade to a 1071 Gallon - yes 1071! <Heeee!>   SPS coral display tank, which will hold these 6 fish ONLY. Purple tang Powder blue tang Blue tang 2 x copperband butterfly. Achilles tang <Mmm, am sure you are familiar with the propensity of two of these tangs to become crypt cultures!> My previous tank was 160G and I had ich problems. I am leaving the live rock in there ( fallow )until I set up the new one which I will run fallow for 2 months before adding the fish. It proved expensive to keep adding salt mix to battle the ammonia in quarantine. So I added bio filter from the previous tank. Well what do you know now ich is in the quarantine tank. I would love you to answer these questions, from which I cannot seem to find definite answers here. Yes / No  answers will be fine. <Okay...> Does copper kill your bio filter? <Can, yes> Does hypo salinity kill your bio filter? <Can, definitely> Does using natural sea water risk re introduction of the parasite? <Can... yes> Does 160G per fish decrease the risk of infection? <Mmm, to a small degree, yes... the larger the system, the more dilute, sparse host-parasite interaction> Will heaters work in a tank this size? <Mmm, work? Yes... there are heaters of very large wattage available... but a few two hundred watt ones should do here> Is it true that the bigger the tank the more stable the temperature? <Ah, yes> Thanks, Allan Also I can just see that after all this effort there will be 1 stubborn cyst that survives and over lengthy time will build up to the original Cryptocaryon level I was battling with originally! <Heeeee! Know that there are actual specific pathogen free systems, in fact, entire facilities... Use dips/baths, quarantine, and rid your fishes of external complaints ahead of placing in your permanent displays. Bob Fenner>

Ich/crypt I really hate this stuff! <And reading> 7/20/05 Hello, WWM crew at the moment I am in a dilemma with the white spot disease Ich/crypt. I have a 55g FOWLR with a hippo tang (fully infested)(2"long), pygmy angel(3-5 spots ICH), Tiger Jawfish, percula clown, Yellow watchmen Goby, The last 3 fish are showing no signs of Ich. I do not have a QT tank, but am willing to set up a 24 gallon Rubbermaid container. With so many mixed answers I am not sure If I can or cannot use COPPER with the fish I have listed in the Rubbermaid. I also know that the Jawfish is very resistant to the parasite. SO my bright Idea was to  take out the 1/2" sand bed and the 7 pieces of live rock and put that in the Rubbermaid under proper conditions for 4-6wks to kill the Ich in the LR, LS and in turn make the main(55) a BB QT for use with copper and/or hypo-salinity, I can't decide which route to take... Of course the other mode of action is to just move the fish to the Rubbermaid QT in which case I will have to tear down the whole tank anyways to catch the little buggers, In all actuality I think it would be easier to remove the rock and at this point I could care less about the ich infested sand. Also I cannot hang a filter on the Rubbermaid container I could only get in a heater and a powerhead with a sponge attached and am not sure if that will suffice with all the fish I have. I have read and read many FAQ's and my eyes are very sore. Please give me the best plan of action with what I have listed... <You need to formulate your own... and quick> Also I do not rely on LR completely for filtration I have 2 sponge filters and a penguin 330 with bio-wheels, I also have a Bak-pak skimmer.... Thank you in advance for any advice! <Keep reading. Bob Fenner>

Possibly bristleworm or Ich <What?> 7/16/05 Hello, Bob! I have a question and I need your help.  I have a 24 gallon nanocube, 4 months old, REEF tank with a Royal Gramma and a yellow goby (the Royal Gramma died this morning).  I was treating for Ich naturally with Kent's Garlic Xtreme. <Worthless, but good on pizza> A LFS suggested the fish could have lost its slime and asked me to treat it with Metronidazole to help the fish regain  its slime. <What? Kooky> He did not think it was Ich. <What was ich?> In spite of this treatment, the Gramma died.  Now the little goby seems to have these white spots, but is still eating.  Being the worrier I am and not wanting to treat the fish for Ich if it does not have Ich, I got a high-powered magnifying glass and looked around the tank.  I've been noticing what could be barnacles on the glass and the back of the tank.  While looking through the magnifying glass, I saw what appeared to be VERY small, but varying in size, oblong, clear "somethings" with a lot of feet.  Down the middle of these clear "somethings", you can see what might be a dark line inside of the it, possibly a spine.  It has two long antennas.  The tank live rock seems to be infested with these "somethings".  In your opinion, what could they be? <Haaaaaa! Please, you're killing me. Please see here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/polychaeidfaqs.htm> I wish I could send you a picture, but I don't have a camera that can tank pictures of anything that small.  I don't want to lose my goby, but I'm afraid that I'm going to. 1)  Could these be bristleworms <Likely are... of some sort> 2)  Would it hurt to treat Ich if the fish does not have Ich? <Yes> 3)  A local fish store suggested using Kick Ich and said it would NOT HURT THE REEF SYSTEM.  True? <Won't help anything... Please read here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/homeopathfaqs.htm Thank you so, so much.  I need all of the help I can get. Lila <My friend, learn to help yourself... the search tool, the indices on WWM... serve tens of thousands of folks every day... use them, read, become an informed aquarist, consumer, human. Bob Fenner> Ick questions 7/12/05 Hello.  Let me first say thanks for all the information and help I have received from the use of wetwebmedia.com.  It's nice to have somewhere to go for help whenever it is needed.  My question is about Ick.  I have a 3 month old tank that I was just starting to stock when I had an outbreak that basically killed almost all my fish.  I have learned my lesson the hard way and have bought two 10 gallon tanks that will be used for quarantining new fish and medicating the sick ones.  The 3 fish I have left are 1 neon cleaner goby, 1 four-stripe damsel and 1 false percula clown fish.  None of these fish have shown any signs of Ick and I see by reading your site that they might be resistant to the parasite. <... though/but still "space hosts"... vectors nonetheless> Should I take them out of the main tank and treat them anyway or would they be safe staying where they are? <All should be treated> If they do stay in the tank and never show signs of Ick, would it then be safe to start adding fish again after their 4 weeks in quarantine? <... ah, no>   Would the parasite continue it's life cycle if it never attaches to a fish host (one of the three remaining fish)? <Is assuredly attaching... just not irritating the hosts enough for you to observe... the "white dots" are not the parasite itself, but sufficient irritation...> I guess I'm asking if the main tank would be considered as running fallow for 6 weeks if these little guys never show signs of Ick and nothing else is added.  I also have 3 white-striped cleaner shrimp, 2 arrow crabs, 4 turbo snails, 4 blue legged hermit crabs and other small hitchhikers from the live rock.  They are all in a 72 gallon bow front tank with about 40 pounds of live rock, 1/2 inch of crushed coral substrate, a remora skimmer, an Eheim professional 2 canister filter and 2 Maxijet 1200's for water movement.  Temperature fluctuates between about 80 - 82 degrees (the weather has been a little on the warm side here in Maryland and I can't get it any lower than that unfortunately). <No worries>   Water is at 1.024, Ph is at 8.2, Ammonia is 0, Nitrite is at 0 and Nitrate is at 0 even after all the deaths.  I do at least a 10 gallon water change once a week using Instant Ocean salt mixture.   Again, thank you for all your help and patience... John <All fish need to be isolated from the main tank for it to really be "fallow"... the "old" fish can be left in a separated system, low specific gravity... for this period of time, and will likely be rid of the parasite. Bob Fenner>

Ich, Trust, Pizza... 7/9/05 Hi Bob, <Brian>             I have a 54 gallon corner reef that a lady who is a total dummy "looks after" because my parents don't trust me. <...?> We had set up the tank 6 months prior to her working for us. For the first six months everything went smoothly until she came along. We had a small algae problem but she demanded that we go out and buy a tang and goby. I had read over your site and still hadn't found anything about gobies controlling algae. <Maybe a Blenny... Salarias, Atrosalarias species...> This was the first hint of her brilliance. So we ended up running out and buying a sailfin tang and a purple Dartfish. <The latter don't eat algae> We already had a six line wrasse that scared the Dartfish into perpetual hiding so it slowly starved to death. A little later we found a couple spots of ich on the tail of the tang. She recommended garlic drops. <Dismal> My mom insisted that we make our own instead of buy them from the store. <Better, but still dismal> I told her that there are things in garlic oil that are harmful to fish. She didn't listen. We killed off every thing and my mom immediately blamed me. She said from now on Robyn would bring the fish and coral. I thought this was a bad idea. But 6 months later my tank has/had 1 sailfin tang, 2 percula clowns, 1 sixline wrasse, 1 hippo tang, 1 diamond watchman goby, 1 cleaner shrimp, 3 peppermint shrimp, 1 Toadstool, 1 xenia, a bunch of zooanthids, some starburst polyps, and a bunch of mushrooms. 3 weeks ago the sailfin tang had some ich cysts on his tail. She said to treat it with garlic drops. I asked her about a quarantine/hospital tank, she said it was unnecessary and told me to soak the food in the garlic drops. The condition has spread to everything and we already lost the goby. I called her yesterday she said to soak the food for 30 minutes. Now it looks like only 2-3 of the 7 fish will pull through. Help! I feel terrible about this. Is there anything to do now? Brian      <Please have your mom, service read here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ichartmar.htm and on to the linked files at top... and re Garlic (great on pizza's, pastas, some soups, various middle-eastern and oriental dishes...) not an effective medicine. Bob Fenner> At wits end <...> over ICK 7/7/05 Hi Guys me again. <Who?> I've written on the subject before, but gotta write again.  ICK.  What is up with this stuff?  Actually, here is the real question....  Can ICK survive being frozen or dried?    <Ah, not frozen, but has been dried and reconstituted... Oh joy> Reason I ask... I am now dealing with ANOTHER ICK outbreak.  This has to be the 4th or 5th one  THIS YEAR.  The last time it took out everything in the tank, so I hypo-salinated, let it go fallow, and all that good stuff.   <Perhaps not long enough> Recently I added a Chocolate Surgeonfish (Philadelphia Tang is what the store called it), and a Percula Clown. BOTH were in my lil QT for a stretch, <How long is this?> with a dash of copper just for safe measure, <Dashes don't count... need daily testing, maintenance of a physiological dose> then FW Dipped before added to the main tank.  All was well for about 2 weeks.   For no reason, POOF, the ICK is back.  Nothing is new to the tank... The only thing I can think of is that maybe the ICK cysts are in my frozen food !!  ?? !!  (Yes, this sounds crazy to me too)...  I have all sorts of Frozen food,  Formula2, Angel Formula with sponges, Dwarf Angel Formula, MYSIS, Cyclop-Eeze, Brine shrimp, and probably a few more I can't recall right now... <Good speculation, but doubtful> IF I can't catch and control the two ICK fish, I will be about 2 dead fish away from going back to a fresh water set up ....which saddens me cuz I really LOVE the marine set up, <Mmm, I'd say you like what this experience seems to do for you sensorily> and my live rock which sprouted several corals and other cool critters.      John M. Mulrooney <Might be best. Bob Fenner> Question regarding treatment of Ich 7/4/05 Good evening. Let me first thank and applaud you on your website. I am a newbie to the hobby and have spent hours on your site researching from A to Z and have received answers/advice on all questions I have had since I began. <Ah, good> I do have a question regarding treatment of Ich and am somewhat embarrassed to ask. I have read many posts and responses on your website re the cause and treatment for Ich, but would like to seek your advice as I believe I have become confused and don't want to "jump the gun." <Okay> I have a 90 gallon - fish only - system stocked with the following: 2 x Clarkii Clownfish 2 x Ocellaris Clownfish 1 x Yellow Tang 1 x Powder Brown Tang 1 x Hippo Tang 1 x Yellow Tail Blue Damsel Various invertebrates - snails, stars, cucumber, sea hares. Temperature runs between 76.5 and 77 degrees, salinity running between 1.022 and 1.023, water quality levels excellent. The Powder Brown and Hippo Tang have signs of Ich - the Powder Brown showing a case more severe. <Typical... as am sure you're aware> Both are tremendous eaters and very active. I began treating the tank 7 days ago with Kick Ich - <Worthless> Protein Skimmer shut down, UV still on, carbon filters removed - against my LFS recommendation to leave them alone, they will fight it off in time. <One approach... "sink or swim"> Both show signs of improving some days, other days it seems to be the same. I have read increasing the temperature gradually over several hours to the mid-80 range and increasing the salinity can help. <Mmm, a bit risky in a reef system> I guess my question to you is what recommendations or pointers do you have on "curing" this disease or product/process that would help before I start losing my precious fish. Thank you in advance, I appreciate any direction you can provide. Bernadette <Posted... as you state... on WWM... Remove all fishes, treat elsewhere (likely with a copper based product, testing...) and leave the infested system fallow for a month or two. Bob Fenner> Coral beauty... problems 29 Jun 2005 Hello WWM crew I'll try to make this quick. My Coral Beauty recently was getting the ick I believe. .. strange thing is it would go away in the morning and come back worse at night. <Happens> This cycle repeated so I decided to put in a 10 gallon. Eventually the ick seem to go away so I put him back with the others. <... uh, your system "has the ich"> His coloring doesn't seem to be as good as usual. My friend said he may be lethargic or something due to parasites. Any recommendations on cure if needed? Thanks a bunch, enjoy your night <Please read here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ichartmar.htm and the linked files above... until you're satisfied... Develop a plan for treating all your fish livestock... letting the infested system go fallow... Bob Fenner>

Cryptocaryon not responding to copper First of all thanks so much for your excellent website and advice. I was unable to find an answer to my particular question in your archives, I did try. I currently have a 5" Hippo Tang and 5" Blond Naso in quarantine- 20 Gal. bare bottom, fully cycled canister filter amm/0 trite/0 PH/8.1 Temp/80 Salt/1020 I recently purchased these fish and I am treating for parasites with Cupramine. My problem is the Naso has several cysts 12-15 "same ones" that have not dropped off after 7 days at 0.5mg/L confirmed by calculation and 2 different brands of copper test kits checked daily. I have been keeping fish for over 20 years and don't believe I have misdiagnosed what looks like a classic case of parasites. <Ahh, but what type?> But anything is possible. The spots appear a bit smaller than the common Cryptocaryon and obviously stay attached much longer. The Hippo looks clear and no new cysts on either fish since treatment started, they are eating and acting well but I am concerned that I wont be able to cover the life cycle of this particular parasite in the treatment time if they are not releasing from the fish as tomonts to be siphoned out or enter the free swimming stage. I did not freshwater dip them because I don't have a pH meter and have had bad experiences trying to get pH adjusted in the past. "chicken I guess" I do however have Formalin and would prefer to bath the Naso in that if you think it would be beneficial, or should I just wait it out. Thanks in advance Shaun <Mmm, am thinking these spots may be more subcutaneous... worms... not affected by copper in the water. I would try an anthelminthic. Please see here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/vermifugefaqs.htm Bob Fenner>

Re: Cryptocaryon not responding to copper Thank You Bob, I think I will try the PraziPro I am assuming I should complete the Cupramine treatment and remove it from QT prior to starting the PraziPro correct? Thanks Shaun <Actually, I'd abandon the copper treatment... it's obviously not working... and it's obvious to me that you know what you're doing here... have kept up testing, physiological doses... more copper exposure will do no good, likely harm. I'd go with the de-wormer by itself. Bob Fenner> Re: Cryptocaryon not responding to copper Bob, Not trying to be a pain here just want to make sure we are on the same page. I'm not sure I made myself clear. Sorry. When I started the copper treatment I definitely had a crypt outbreak and all cysts immediately cleared except for the few persistent ones left on the Naso so I believe I am battling parasites also. With that info do think I should finish the copper treatment? and if so wait to start the PraziPro <I see... I would continue, finish the copper run AND start the Praziquantel... they are miscible. Bob Fenner>

Quarantined fish getting ich after 40 days in qt Hi James (Salty Dog), We have used the ich attack for 3 days now. 2 days after putting the fish back into the main tank, our purple tang already has signs of ich. He is eating well and active so we will see how he progresses and continue to add ich attack  for the remaining days. I hope we can find the culprit of this ich. <During this treatment, I would feed a very healthy diet, including soaking the food in Selcon.  Good luck. James (Salty Dog)> Thanks, Cindy - Fish Ich'd - Hello WWM crew. I have a 45 gallon tank as I mentioned not long ago with a "film" problem on the surface. My coral beauty has recently gotten the ich. I don't have anything running at the moment to put her in. Do you suggest I get out an old 10 gallon and use medicine? <At the very least get out the old 10 gallon. Read more on this here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/QuarMarFishes.htm and here http://www.wetwebmedia.com/mardisease.htm Much more in WetWebMedia for your reading.> Thanks. Also, could this water film be causing some major problems? <Doubt seriously that this is the cause of the ich.> I'm starting to worry about the oxygen level in the tank because of bubbles in film. <Unrelated.> Please help, thanks a bunch. <Cheers, J -- >

Whitespot, What's stressing my fish?!! Hi guys, thanks for the excellent and informative site. I am currently running a 30 (UK) Gallon tank with live rock, skimmer and 1000lph external canister filter. the inhabitants are 1 Gobiodon okinawae, 2 Amphiprion ocellaris, 1 Gramma loreto, 1 Centropyge eibli, 1 Lysmata debelius and 1 Lysmata amboinensis, <The angel is going to be/is way-too crowded here> I also have 2 fanworms. tank has been running for 6 months and apart from a few minor setbacks everything has been running fine until now. Yesterday I noticed that the Gramma was hiding a lot and upon inspection found it had whitespot, I can count the number of spots so am hoping I have caught it early. today I noticed my angel also has a few spots but allows the cleaner shrimp to clean them off, all the other fish are about 3/4 the size of the shrimp and scamper as soon as it comes near. I am currently treating the tank with small doses of supposedly invert safe Myxazin. <There are no safe AND effective such treatments> I also purchased a tiny L. amboinensis today in the hope the smaller fish will allow it too do its job (its still acclimating at the mo so I don't know if this has been successful). <Trouble in overcrowding this genus of shrimp...> my water parameters are Nitrate:5, Nitrite:0, Ammonia:0, Temp 25C, salinity 0.23 and the last fish to be introduced was the C. eibli about 5 weeks ago. I have not changed a thing in my tank since then and can't understand why my fish are getting stressed. <It's the crowding, being in such a small volume my friend> I was wondering if you have any ideas as to possible reasons for this stress and any suggestions for combating the ich. <Mmm, stress... but also the fact that you placed the ich/crypt with the fishes... now you have a "crypt system"> my LFS suggested a cleaner wrasse but as I consider my tank to be fully stocked (and believe they should be left on the reef) I don't really want to add one. yours hopefully Nick <I'd remove all but one of the Lysmata shrimp and maybe try a Gobiosoma species goby... but, and you may not like to read this... likely the only satisfying route for you to go is to remove the fishes, treat them in another separate system, allow the present system to go "fallow" (sans needed fish hosts) in an attempt to rid the actual system of the parasite and its endless cycling... Much more about this posted on WWM. Bob Fenner> Quarantined fish getting ich after 40 days in qt Hi James, <Hello Cindy> Do you think the coral beauty and sand sifter goby are carrying ich since they show no signs of the disease.<If no signs are shown, more than likely, no.  Very healthy fish can fight off the disease.>  The only way we would be able to get the last two fish out would be to break down the tank again. This was a disaster last time since we lost some of our corals in the process. We have had all the other  fish out of the tank for about a month now but since we still have these two  fish still in the main tank, I feel that we are probably wasting our time. I  know we need to leave the main tank fishless but we did this for over 40 days 3  months ago and within 2 days of returning our fish to the main tank our  powder blue and hippo showed signs of ich again. So we then attempted to get the  fish out and we not able to remove these last two. That is why we wanted to try  to use ich attack before we break down the whole tank again. It is quite hard to  keep the ammonia down in the 3 10 gallon qt tanks we are using with the other  fish. Is there anything else you recommend. Should we try the ich attack or just  attempt to take the 2 remaining fish out which are being very hard to get. We thought that after leaving the tank fishless for over 40 days, the ich would be gone but we were wrong. <No, you were correct.  The disease can be transmitted by nets, water from the LFS, anything that goes into the tank that came from another tank can transfer the parasite.  Forty days is long enough to rid the tank of any ich parasites.  I guess go ahead and try the Ich Attack and let us know the results.  James (Salty Dog)> Thanks, Cindy

Quarantine Hi, <Hello Cindy> We still have not been able to remove a coral beauty and a sand sifter goby yet but the other fish are in qt and doing fine. The coral beauty and goby don't show any signs of ich. I wrote to you last on June 5 and am wondering if we could add ich attack to the main tank with live  rock and hard and soft corals and invertebrates. Do you think this could kill  the ich and I want to make sure it won't hard all the coral. <Cindy, I would read the info on the bottle label, if it says it is safe, then try it.  My experience with treating ich is that copper is the only sure way of getting rid of this parasite, and of course, this cannot be used in tanks with invertebrates.  James (Salty Dog)> Thanks, Cindy Fish with Ich in a Hospital Tank.....Hypo, Formalin, or Copper? (6-13-05) Hi all, I have been speed reading through much of this site since last evening, trying to make a decision on how to treat my pygmy angel and clown fish for ich.   <Hi there, Leslie here representing all this morning. Sorry to hear about your fish.> I noticed 2-4 spots on each fish last night that were not visible  to me as early as that same morning.  I am aware that all treatments have their own pros and cons, but am mainly concerned with the angel, knowing she  would not tolerate full doses of copper, and many opinions on this site lean towards hypo not being a good cure. I have a stack of reference books, and a bugged out brain from info overload.  Please advise this new aquarist on the best way to proceed. <Sure, I am a fan of freshwater dips followed by hyposalinity. I have had very good luck with these methods. The fish can go directly from the FW dip into the hyposalinity. The FW dip water must be dechlorinated, and adjusted to the pH and temp of the water the fish are currently in. Recommended treatment for FW dips are usually 7 to 15 min and Scott Michael recommends up to 30 min. Keep in mind here you must remain with the fish for the duration of the dip and any signs of distress.. gasping or jumping at the surface, they should be returned to the main or quarantine tank and slowly acclimated over several hours to the hyposalinity.  Some increased gilling is normal. Occasionally a fish will lay over on its side. Should this happen try gently stimulating it, most often they will respond to gentle stimulation, by returning to a normal orientation in the water and the dip can be continued. If they do not come around the dip needs to be terminated and they need to be returned to their tank. Formalin is harsh as well as toxic to the environment and a known carcinogen. I never use it as a first line treatment. The other thing that is nice about hyposalinity is that it can be used in conjunction with meds should you need to.> I have a -10 gallon hospital tank (fish are in) <Perfect> -running whisper filter with poly instead of carbon (good choice??) <Yes, fine, but will need to be removed if you decide to go with meds vs. hyposalinity.> -attached skimmer for water turnover, might this help keep parameters in  check or am I dreaming? <Nopeit should help. If you opt for the FW dip and hyposalinity then a few pieces of live rock will do wonders for the water quality. Anything that increases turnover and oxygenation is beneficial. The skimmer will of course help with removal of organic waste which should in turn help the water quality.> Should I add Selcon or Garlic Extreme etc. to the food/water to increase  immunity? <I would be careful with any additives that could diminish water quality. I would opt for Beta Glucan. There is quite a bit of evidence out now about its the immune stimulating effects.  It can be obtained from any health food store. Here is some information on Beta Glucan. http://www.marineaquariumadvice.com/beta_glucan_biological_defense_modulator.html . They recommend administration by gut loading live brine shrimp. You could also dissolve some of it in RO or DI water, soak some flakes or Nori, and then feed that. Another method, if you have access to a needle and syringe, would be to again dissolve it in some water and inject it into Mysis. A bit tedious and requires a steady hand and good eyesight but does work well especially for my captive bred seahorses who prefer Mysis to live brine believe it or not.> I should also mention all LFS stores in my area are closed on Monday so I most likely will be ordering meds on line and next day shipping them. <If you opt for the FW dip followed by hyposalinity you can start immediately and do not have to wait for meds to be shipped.> Thanks a bunch in advance. I do not want to lose any fish here.....forever grateful for all you do! <Your most welcome! Best of luck with your fish, Leslie>

Re: Fish in Hospital Tank with Ich.....Hypo, formalin or copper? Continued (6-13-05) Hi Leslie, thank-you so much for your reply. <Your very welcome Kelly.> I am feeling less panicked already!! <Glad I could help dispel some of the panic. I can certainly relate and I have never found it to be very helpful ;).> Well there are now 3 fish in QT, probably soon to be 5 as other my other tank is also contaminated. <Oh bummer, I am so sorry to hear that.> As this point I am thinking of using one tank to house most of my rock and all inverts while using the smaller 16 gallon to treat all 5 fish with hypo and dips. <That sounds like a plan. The bigger tank would be a better option since there are 3 additional fish. Be sure to do the dips in a separate container and do not add any of the dip water back into the tank that will be housing the fish. Since you are not adding meds daily water changes would be a good idea. In addition to keeping up the water quality it will help to dilute the parasite load.> Thanks for the excellent advice on administering garlic to shrimp.   I dont think you have to go to the trouble of gut loading the shrimp with the garlic. I would vote for making life simpler and just soaking their food in the Garlic Extreme. I really do think the Beta Glucan is a better immune stimulant and would advise you go with that instead of the garlic.> I did go ahead and order some Garlic Extreme and Selcon to supplement feedings.  Also I ordered Methylene Blue and Formalin 3.  I was thinking of using the Methylene with FW dips and the Formalin to sanitize equipment since I have more than one tank.   <The Meth Blue is not necessary and perhaps overkill. It is typically used for nitrite and ammonia toxicity. The FW dip and hyposalinity should be just fine. More is not necessarily better when it comes to meds and treatments. As for the formalin, as I mentioned in my previous response it is toxic, a carcinogen, and disposal of it would not be considered environmentally friendly. It would be better not to use it at all if you can avoid it.  You can sterilize you equipment easily by soaking or even running it with a diluted mixture of bleach and water for a few days. Rinse it well when done and then soak or run the equipment in freshwater with some dechlorinator for a few days. Rinse again and set it outside to dry in the sun for another couple of days.> Again, thank you for any thoughts or advice on my plan.  Hoping hypo works!! ~Kelly <You're most welcome! It should work well if done correctly. Be sure to use a refractometer when measuring the specific gravity for your hyposaline solution. Any other method is not reliable enough for this extreme drop in specific gravity. It is very important to have an accurate measurement. If the specific gravity is to low the fish will not tolerate it for the duration of the treatment and if its to high the treatment will not be effective. You want to be sure your water is 1.008 to 1.010 and the treatment is usually continued for at least 4 weeks. Best of luck with your fishes, Leslie.>

Have 2 fish in hospital tank.....hypo/formalin/copper? Hi all, I have been speed reading through much of this site since last evening, trying to make a decision on how to treat my pygmy angel and clownfish for ich.  I noticed 2-4 spots on each fish last night that were not visible  to me as early as that same morning.  I am aware that all treatments have  their own pros and cons, but am mainly concerned with the angel, knowing she  would not tolerate full doses of copper, and many opinions on this site lean towards hypo not being a good cure.   <Are you sure this is ich/crypt? Have you tried the biological cleaner route?> I have a stack of reference books, and a bugged out brain from info overload.  Please advise this new aquarist on the best way to  proceed. -10 gallon hospital tank (fish are in) -running whisper filter with poly instead of carbon (good choice??) <Yes... unless you're adding chemical treatments> -attached skimmer for water turnover, might this help keep parameters in check or am I dreaming? <Will, but will remove...> -should I add Selcon or Garlic Extreme etc. to the food/water to increase immunity? <You can> I should also mention all LFS stores in my area are closed on Monday so I most likely will be ordering meds on line and next day shipping them. Thanks a bunch in advance, I do not want to lose any fish here..... forever grateful for all you do! <I'd return the fishes to the main tank, read over the use of cleaners for now. Bob Fenner> Marine Ich- Preparing For Battle! Dear WetWeb Media <Scott F. here today!> I think that I might have an outbreak of Cryptocaryon in my 125 litre reef tank.  One of the Yellow Gobies has some small white spots. I am trying to setup a quarantine tank for it but should I dose the main tank with Oodinex.  According to my local shop it is reef  safe.  Stock includes two cleaner shrimps, various mushroom corals and star polyps and an orange Linckia starfish. Regards, Gordon <Well, Gordon, I commend you on setting up a separate tank to quarantine/treat the afflicted fish. In my experience and opinion, it is definitely best NOT to treat the fish in the display tank. While I am not familiar with this product, I will generalize my response about so-called "reef-safe" products. It seems improbable that a product can attack only the target protozoa while being harmless to physiologically analogous beneficial/harmless species. The potential for "collateral damage" in the display tank is to great, IMO. Better technique would be to remove ALL of the fishes in the tank for observation/treatment in a separate tank. Meanwhile, the display tank would run "fallow", without fishes, for at least a month. In the absence of host fishes, the population of Cryptocaryon would "crash". Like any treatment, it is not a 100% cure, but it has proven highly effective for myself and many other hobbyists, and is a far better approach than a potentially damaging chemical dose in the display tank. I did write a piece on this technique here on the WWM site called "Marine Ich" Fighting The War on Two Fronts" some time ago which outlines this approach in greater detail. Do look it up if you are interested...Hope it will prove useful to you! Good luck! Regards, Scott F.> Dr Gordon Watson Marine Ich Troubles Okay, I'm screwed. I've got a 125g reef tank, with a hepatus tang, a powder blue tang, a mated pair of true perculas, a small L. swalesi, and a small 5 bar mystery wrasse. My two tangs, being the ich magnets that they are, have finally come down with ich. I've seen them scratch a time or two, but no signs before. Been doing lots of water changes in the 25% range. Now today, their pectoral fins are covered. It will be nearly impossible to get them out of the reef. What are the best options for treating them that won't hurt the corals or inverts? < Right off the bat I'm thinking garlic.  I've seen it work so well so many times.  All you need is pure garlic extract (super market or health foods store) and mix it in with your foods.  Make sure to soak your foods in it so that the fish ingests the garlic oils.  For a more natural solution I think cleaner shrimp help out, but are not cures.  Really to address the issue we would need to look at your feeding/filtration to see why there is a problem with the parasites to begin with. > Since my wrasse and my swalesi Basslet are hardy, is it possible they will escape the malady? < Possible, definitely depends on how badly the other fish are affected. > Thanks. <  Blundell  >

- Question On Ich Strategy - If the only two fish in my tank showing signs of ich are the two most ich prone tangs (powder blue & hepatus), can an effective strategy be doing 25% water changes every other day to thin down the ich population? <Hi Brandon, you'd likely get some of the free-swimming ciliates by doing frequent water changes, but you'd also need to include a gravel/bottom vacuum to get those that have settled to the bottom to reproduce. To a certain extent, if the fish are not overwhelmed by ich you can likely just let these fish deal with it. As you've mentioned, these fish can get ich at the drop of a hat so it may be close to impossible to ever keep them 100% ich free.> Thanks. <Cheers, J -- >

- Return of Ich after Quarantine and Running Tank Fallow - Hi, I had talked with you a while back. Our main tank had ich. We have 300 lbs of live rock, corals, invertebrates, and fish. We broke down the tank and removed all the fish. We put them in a 90 gallon qt for over 40 days. We left the tank fishless for over 40 days. Within a couple of days of putting them back in the main tank, our powder blue tang, chevron tang, hippo tang, and purple tang started showing signs of ich. What did we do wrong? <Probably nothing, tangs by and large are more susceptible to this parasite than many other fish. I have a friend who's had a hippo tang for 10 years and the fish shows the signs of ich every time he changes the water.> We were able to remove almost every fish from the tank again using a gadget my husband made using plexi-glas to scoop the fish out. The hippo, flame angel, coral beauty, neon goby, and sand sifter are too smart to go into the trap. We are getting very frustrated since we don't want to lose any fish this time around. The coral beauty, flame angel, and the gobies don't show any signs of ich which still remain in the main tank, but the hippo has some spots on his body but otherwise is doing fine. It is hard to break down the tank because the corals get all stressed out. <Understood.> Why did the ich come back since we left it without fish for so long. <Perhaps was not long enough if the population was large enough... there are no hard/fast rules about such things. Typically 30-45 days is enough, but if you kept the temperature low for instance [say 75F] then the Cryptocaryon would have reproduced and died at a slower rate.> People at out fish store tell us we can never really get the ich out of the tank. <It's true that it's difficult to be 100% ich free.> While the fish are in qt they show no signs of ich. Help!!! <Be patient. I'd consider leaving the fish in the main tank and just keeping an eye on them. It's very possible that the fish will do fine over time - what you want to make sure doesn't happen is that things develop into epidemic proportions. So if the tangs have ich once in a while but otherwise eat and interact normally, then it may not be such a big deal - if everyone develops ich, scratches all over the place and stops eating, then you've got a real problem on your hands. Work it from there.> Cindy <Cheers, J -- >

- Ich Questions - Dear crew Years ago I read an article (sorry can not remember where) that most fish carry ich and their own immune systems keep it at bay provided the fish are healthy and not stressed. <This is true to an extent. Even the most healthy fish can be overwhelmed.> Seven years ago I introduced a yellow, a purple, a powder blue and  a blue tang together into a 160 gallon system along with other fish . After about 2 months the tangs started to develop what appeared to be ich, at first I started medicating with out much luck, I then changed their diet and gave them local weed. The ich disappeared. Some six years latter I messed up their salinity levels and the ich reappeared I lost the powder blue and the blue to it before I found a faulty specific gravity reader and corrected it. The other two tangs recovered no sign now of ich. Given I had not introduced any fish to the system in years you would assume it has been in the tank all along, yes? <Yes.> No? Wouldn't quarantining new fish stress them? <Yes and no... quarantine is just as much about acclimation and rest as it is checking for disease. Introducing an otherwise healthy fish to a new aquarium can make that fish a stranger in a strange land, and a victim of aggression. If the fish isn't ready for this, then it could produce more stress than it can handle.> Considering the dipping the copper the diet? <Copper should be used only if a disease occurs and not a prophylactic.> I wanted to set up a reef tank and introduce new fish. Couldn't I just quarantine them and only medicate or dip if they showed signs of disease? <This would be best, yes.> I would be curious as to your opinion. Gratefully, John <Cheers, J -- >

One day ich, bloated filefish Hi, Is there a disease that looks like ich but only lasts 24 hours or less? <Mmm, there are such possibilities, but likely this is crypt/ich> Appears about once a month, usually on one fish at a time, 2-4 lesions which are larger than ich seen at the LFS. I need to find a new home for some of the fish exposed but don't want to spread it, whatever it is. I have a 20 and can move all fish to it, treat, and let the system go fallow, but am not sure what I am treating. <Most all external parasites of marine fishes can be treated about the same... See WWM re> During a recent heat wave had another episode of the 1 day "ich" followed by severe disruption of the skin of a yellow clown goby. <Touchy to treatment...> An orange spot filefish had 2 white spots on the dorsal, one of which left a bullseye shape in hazy white the next day, no red. Following day it did not eat, kept the file up, got pale, bloated, and laid on its side. Both fish had 2 spots which disappeared for 2 days, then they got seriously ill. Am thinking secondary infection of the parasite <Possibly> wound so moved both fish to a 10 and dosed Maracyn 2. After 24 hours did a large water change and re-did the first day dose of 2 pills plus a tbsp Epsom salts for the bulging eyes (water looked milky and nasty). Plan on doing the next 4 days with single pill dose/no water changes/no more Epsom salts till the end as the package suggests. Both fish are already better in appearance. Should I continue or switch direction, if it doesn't cure or kill what would be the next action? Assuming if I get the secondary infections wrapped up still need to deal with the alleged ich. <I would dose as you list, keep changing water out, monitor ammonia, nitrite... hope> Do you feed a fish recovering from bloat and what/when would you suggest? I have live daphnia, brine shrimp, pods, worms, Mysid shrimp live or frozen and the usual array of frozen foods. <Feed sparingly, whatever the fish will take> Bloat may be food related, LFS stores here often thaw and refreeze so have mail-ordered all new frozen food for the future... the wholesalers deliver it thawed and warm in the summer. Ugh. I did quarantine all these fish but suspect I carried a pathogen from a QT tank on hands or clothes or from when I worked at an LFS. (that's how I know about the frozen food) <You have a good mind for all this...> This is what I get for announcing my success with keeping an orange spot filefish. <... a very difficult aquarium species> I got him as a rescue and he's been here for months, doing well till recently. Right about when I started telling people of my alleged success. I guess I am half Murphy and here comes the law. Suggestions? File is actively hunting despite his bloated appearance... <Do you have a "sacrificial" small polyped stony coral?> I have no idea if he's on a long term effective diet as he should be eating Acropora polyps. He did like Condylactis anemone at the store, could get him one of those... Does not eat tulip, Aiptasia or majano unfortunately. (: I will probably never get another of these as they shouldn't be in the trade, he was a rescue, and I really don't want to lose him. Thanks, Kate <I wish folks in the trade would leave this species in the ocean, stores wouldn't buy it, hobbyists would refuse to purchase... Bob Fenner>

- One Day Ich, Bloated Filefish, Follow-up - Hi Thanks for the vote of confidence, I don't FEEL in control at all. (: Appears they may have both ich and velvet, some spots are large, paper white and opaque whereas other fish have lots of translucent small spots. Or is this the way different fish manifest C. irritans? <Think it can manifest with slight visible difference from species to species. In some ways is like the way a mosquito bite might be a big welt for one person and a non-irritant for another.> Bought Coppersafe, did a partial dose as instructed, copper level went over 1 Meq/L per Aquarium Pharmaceuticals kit. I dose with 1 ml pipettes very carefully. Think the test or the med is inaccurate? <Could be that the test kit is not for chelated copper.> Would copper sensitivity be noticeable or do they silently suffer irreparable gill damage? <Silently suffer for a while, then visibly break down.> Anyone ever tried Flubendazole for marine ich or velvet? <Not really effective for that - really more for flukes and internal parasites.> I have that, works on freshwater Glugea (verified by Cornell fish pathologist) and did work on Brooklynella (verified anecdotally by yours truly). Want to try it on marine Glugea some day. It's a discus med from Asia, you can't get it here without a PhD or vet Rx, supposed to be for human TB and regulated by FDA. It left pods, fish and macro algae unscathed but killed bristleworms and Brooklynella - I like it so far. <Interesting.> I quarantined all these fish except the blenny which was from an established ich free tank, or so we thought. Could I have carried it from my LFS job on my skin or clothes? <A possibility, albeit a remote one. Can be carried within a store on nets, but have not had problems myself when working in a LFS and then coming home to work on my own tank. Wouldn't expect these protozoans could live for very long out of water.> If it came from my friend's tank she needs to know but I don't want to cast aspersions on her tank w/o cause, she thinks I got it at the LFS somehow. <Better safe than sorry.> On the plus side the filefish and clown goby are recovered from bloat and skin problems. <Excellent.> Thanks, Kate <Cheers, J -- >

Treating ich/itch... Having read all I can about itch treatment on your site, I have decided to try hyposalinity first and fallow my tank for a 8 weeks. I would however like to know why bob, you don't seem to favour hyposalinity <Doesn't often "work", too hard on many species, impugned specimens... that is, more stress than it's worth...> and if so, what then is your preferred method for treating itch in general? <... this is posted... on WWM. BobF>

- Treating ich/itch, Follow-up - Hi again Bob <JasonC this time.> The Hypo treatment is working I am glad to say, and the two large regal tangs are doing well. In fact one of the tangs has become very friendly with me. When I put my fingers in the tank with some food he comes right up to the top and nudges my fingers. He used to be really scared of everything that moved. I know they have a very sharp blade on there rear end and I am a bit worried that he might stop being so friendly and try to whack me with it. It's interesting, I don't think I would have got to know this fish so well if he wasn't in a QT tank. <Glad to hear on all accounts. Cheers, J -- >

- Following up on Ich - Well Bob, you will be pleased to hear that the white spot is going and my fish are all doing well. <Bob would be pleased to hear that, but he's not here. JasonC here today in his stead.> I have joined in a thread which we hope will run for a year, its purpose being the goal of an ich free tank. Those involved are sharing there information so we can all help each other as we progress with hyposalinity treatment and other methods. I have decided to quarantine everything that goes in my main tank from now on including corals and inverts and rock. <Quite wise.> If only I had realized just how important it was in the first place and been prepared I would not have lost some of my fish and had to empty out my main tank. When is your next book coming out by the way? <Hard to say. We've had some delays of late and are now not certain when it will make it to the printer. When we know, we'll be telling everyone. Cheers, J -->

Natural ick cures Hello folks... me again.  <It's us again, too> Gettin' back into Saltwater has been quite painful...  <Shouldn't be> Today, the topic is that "rare disease"... ICK. Seems to me that there is more of it around than 10+ years ago...  <Agreed> I am a QT fan, Fish get QT'd, coppered (when needed) and FW dipped before and after QT. I recently added 20# of Live Rock to my 65 gal setup. This was on top of 70?# pounds already in there, sitting on 60# of Live sand.  Guess who hitch hiked in on the new Fiji rock... frICK !!  My Heniochus, Yellow Tang, and Coral Beauty are showin' spots. My QT isn't big enough to hold everybody in the tank for a long period of time (month or more) I have mushrooms, Feather dusters, xenia, and other cool critters on my older rock (hitch hikers mostly). I don't want to nuke the display tank.  I do have 2 cleaner shrimp, but only the Coral Beauty "allows" for any cleaning.  I am wondering if I were to get a few Neon Gobies (or wrasses), would they readily go for the ick on my fish, with hopes that I can keep this new problem in check the Mother Nature way?? IF so... Who Cleans them of ick? Cause if I get a few, they will be FW Dipped, and tossed right into the display to "get to work". Am I out of my mind??  <Having cleaners as such, does help some, but will never completely eradicate the pest. Rubbermaid molded tubs are available at "farm stores" at a very reasonable price. I've used, still use them now. The fish are impossible to observe, but since they do have ick and treatment is necessary, they work quite well. Just keep the copper level up for 21/28 days. A friend of mine actually cut a rectangular hole in the side of the tub and cemented an acrylic pane to it which allows some viewing. James (Salty Dog) > <<Is similar to quarantine "tanks" used at LBAOP.>>

Sera Cryptopur Hello, <Hi there> Have you had any experience using Sera Cryptopur for treating itch. <No, I use Goldbond on my feet. Oh you mean for saltwater ich/Crypt. Nope... here's their pitch: http://www.sera.de/English/autoframe.htm?url=http://www.sera.de/english/News/news.htm > It says you can use it in the main tank along with live rock and inverts as it does not contain copper. What do you think.. <That there is no such thing as an effective treatment that kills some invertebrate w/o killing other invertebrates... Bob Fenner>

To Mark and Kathy/ ich in a 55 qt - Kim's Very Hard-won Advice Hi crew, I just read the inquiries from Mark and Kathy about their struggles with ich. Boy did this sound familiar! I wanted to write in hopes that they would read this. I wanted to tell them not to get frustrated, this next month will be HELL! <Yikes! Is this George B. Jr.? Watch out for terrorists! They're terrifying!> After I lost half of my fish the first week and a half with the Quick Cure and doing 10 to 20 % water changes I changed to CopperSafe... <Yay!> ...and changed 50% of the water [also had a 55 gallon qt] everyday for a month. I also had to pull one of the fish into another tank temporarily to treat for a secondary bacterial infection. Well I am done, I will hopefully be putting my fish back in the main tank this weekend. My Raccoon's skin has healed beautifully and I am happy to have saved the 3 fish I have left, they are doing good. It was worth the early morning water changes and the 200 gallons of salt I went through every week to save them!! So I guess I wanted to tell them to hang in there, don't give up and read this website!!! I would have lost ALL my fish had it not been for the wonderful help and info on this site!! Have a great day! Kim <Thank you for your input. Bob Fenner> 

Proper treatment? Good Morning to All! <Already?> My question is concerning a yellow tang. I recently (last week) purchased this tang from my LFS. I plan to place him in my 55 gallon reef tank in the future. Once I got him home, I realized that he has ick (white spots, scratching etc.). Luckily he is in a quarantine/observation tank. This tank is a fully cycled 20 gallon hex with live rock, live sand, 5 blue legged hermit crabs & 1 cleaner shrimp. The tang is eating sheets of seaweed & grazing the live rock. So far, I have begun a schedule of daily freshwater baths (20% tank water & 80% freshwater with temp & ph adjusted prior to dip.) at 7 minutes each, with an air stone in the bath. <... returning the fish to the ich-infested system? What for?> He shows very little signs of stress from this treatment. I have also been manually removing the parasites (when they are in their swimming stage) from the tank. They seem to congregate at the top of the tank near the light & swim in circles. Obviously, I replace the water I removed each time.  <... by siphoning? What?> My question is if I continue this routine, will this parasite eventually be eradicated (sp?) <Use your spell checker> or should I consider using one of the copper based treatments on the market? <... this is posted on WWM, as are many other pertinent points you will want/need to become aware of> I do have an empty 10 gallon tank that I can set-up for  that purpose (I just prefer the least invasive, least toxic treatment  possible). <Agreed> Also if my current treatment routine is sufficient, is their anything (a second cleaner shrimp, or heater perhaps) that you would recommend doing that would increase my chances of success. <Posted...> The current temperature in the tank is 78 degrees F., Salinity 1.022, Ph 8.3, Nitrates, Nitrites & Ammonia are undetectable. Also I have been considering the Methylene Blue dip, (my LFS should have it in tomorrow), although I am a bit confused on it's usage. Can this product to be added to the freshwater dip, or is it intended to be used in some other manner? Any input or suggestions would be greatly appreciated. <Posted> Thank you in advance for your time & expert advice. Julie <Read on my young friend, read on... Bob Fenner>  

Ick\hyposalinity Hello, <Hi there> My 400 gallon FOWLR has ick. The regal tang is getting pretty covered and most of the fish have a few spots. I have been reading about treatments and all the FAQs for hours and hours. I'm now a little confused about what to do. I will definitely let my main system go fallow and put my 10 or so fish into 2 x 75 gallon treatment tanks. I will change 25% of the treatment tanks water every day. Now, do I use the 1.010 hyposalinity method or do I use copper? <Could use both, either, neither> If I use copper what should the salinity be? This hobby is no fun at the moment. Kind Regards, Jim <Keep reading... on WWM re Cryptocaryon/iasis... treatments. Bob Fenner> 

Ich quarantine question not answered in faq I have a 130g FOWLR main tank that developed ich. I pulled all fish out yesterday to a 55g quarantine. My koi went to their pond just in time.  <? What? To free up the tank?> Anyway my LFS told me that I could run copper in my main tank to get rid of the ich. I knew this not to be true so after reading through the site did the move yesterday. I used main tank water and all parameters are good. No substrate in quarantine but I did pull some fake plants and a couple fake corals with algae growth for the lawnmower blenny. Your site stated that they did not take too much other food. <Generally not> I am treating all fish with quick cure...a malachite green & formalin product. How long do I continue to use this? <... posted... on WWM, the product label... This product/mix is dangerously toxic... will kill all biological filtration... hence the need for massive water changes, augmentation, monitoring...> On bottle it says until symp. are gone. Also I am afraid that the quarantine is over its bioload but I have no other place for fish.  Occupants include 1 Porc. puffer 5", 1 Foxface Rabbit 6 1/2", 1 4 1/2" Raccoon Butterfly, 1 yellow tail damsel, 1 pink damsel, 1 Chromis and the lawnmower blenny. I will check water daily. <Twice daily> The puffer and butterfly were the only ones showing spots but I pulled all fish and am letting the main tank go fallow for 5 or so weeks. Temp. is 80, and sg is 1.024 in quarantine. I have lowered main tank to 1.021 (was originally going to do hyposalinity) but temp. is 80. Is this ok? <Should be> Also is it ok to leave hermit crab in main tank. <Yes> I also have snails but knew they were ok to leave in. I run two PC units on main tank. It equals 220 watts of actinic and 220 watts of 10,000k daylight. My question is, is this overkill for live rock and fish. <No... is fine> I have a lot of hair algae and if I can would like to use this opportunity to lessen their hours on from 12 down to 4 or 5 while fish are out of tank. Do you think this would hurt the live rock and copepods? <No... a good plan> Also, can plants and decor from quarantine eventually go back into main tank if I do a bleach wash and FW rinse on them?  <Not live plants, but faux ones, yes> Also I usually do a smaller water change on main tank every 2 weeks but would like to do one or two big ones. When do you recommend I do these?  <At the end of the fallow period> I was going to do one at two weeks and another at four and vacuum coral gravel at that time. Thanks in advance for your reply. Sherry <Take your time here... careful observation, regular measuring of water quality, sparse feeding... lots of stored water... will be your keys to success. Bob Fenner>

Re: Crypt in a big reef... Quarantine!  Be Human - Learn From Others' Experience How do I feel about quarantining all incoming livestock now? <Yeah, tell us all about it!> Well I guess that when I kept tropical fish and got white spot it was a whole lot easier to treat it but getting white spot in a 130 gallon reef tank with corals inverts and a lot of money spent on it all is a nightmare world! From now on nothing gets in my tank without going through the quarantine tank I can now see why having a quarantine tank set up is so important. If my first purchase had been a hospital tank and I had seen it as being more important then the latest skimmer or wizard gizmo my fish would all be ok and I wouldnt be spending more money on salt for all the water changes I'm having to do now not to mention the hours I have spent worrying about my fish surviving all this. So if I was telling others about keeping marine fish I would say this.. Get a quarantine tank set it up and DO NOT I repeat DO NOT! Let any fish in your tank with out passing the quarantine period first. I would then add to that.. ok you're not taking me seriously are you your thinking no I will be ok... Well your wrong you won't be ok the dreaded white spot will come after you and when your up to your neck in ick infested water and your fish look like salted kippers you will remember my words...USE A QUARANTINE TANK! <Thank you! Bob Fenner>  

Tangs, Crypto and UV - In Other Words "QUARANTINE"! (5/15/05)  I have 3 tangs in my 125G tank, and they are all getting along very well. Rarely see a raised fin, tail slapping, etc.  <Lucky you. It may not stay that way as they grow.>  That said, two are the most common contractors of ich, the hepatus and the powder blue.  <Yup.>  My reef has way too much rock with coral frags all over to dig out. If I wanted to be proactive, what is the best way to make sure ich does not enter the picture.  <4 weeks of quarantine for any new additions. Make sure they get a good variety of food with plenty of algae. Supplement with vitamins and HUFAs, which may help prevent HLLE, a big problem with the Hippos. Keep system as stable as possible. Minimize stress. Remove aggressors if problems do develop eventually.>  I do weekly 15% to 20% water changes, aggressive skimming, etc. Occasionally I'll see a tang scrape against a rock a time or two, but I always hope it was just an itch.  <If this is occasional, it is probably not a concern.> Bottom line: do UV Sterilizers, large enough with a slow flow rate, eliminate ich with destroying too much beneficial stuff?  <No guarantees. It may help and some people run it periodically or continuously, though there have been unsubstantiated concerns of this leading to immunodeficiency in the fish. For a great summary of UV pros and cons, read Scott Michael's marine parasite article in Aquarium USA Annual. It was the 2004 Edition, I think.>  Thoughts on the best way to avoid problem before it starts?  <As above.>  Thanks.  <Hope this helps.> 

Ich rerun 15 May 2005 Hi,  <Hi! MacL here with you today. Ah ich, one of my favorite subjects.> I have a strange situation in my 55 gal tank. I previously had ich and lost all my fish. I let the tank go fallow for 6 weeks.  <Okay tricky question here did you let the tank go totally fallow? NOTHING in the tank?>  Since then I put in 2 damsels and 2 clowns. all quarantined of course. Then added a bicolor blenny... all was still fine. About 2-3 months into my new tank I finally added a yellow tang and a coral beauty. All was well for 2 weeks and now the tang is scratching quite a bit, well I should say he's doing these swoops "near" the rocks, like he's following the contour of some rocks. Also, I can't see any white spots on him either.  <No white spots whatsoever? He might have a different type of parasite.>  I checked the water quality (1.21 @80f, ammonia and nitrates ok) I have inverts and an anemone which are doing well so the water can't be that bad. The worst part is ONLY the tang is scratching. I put him in copper for 5 days and brought him back 'cause he looked pretty miserable in the 10 gal QT. As soon as he was back he was swooping again. Could it be ONLY the tang has ich? Why aren't the others scratching or swooping :) <Let me suggest you check for something else because this recently happened to a friend of mine. His tang was scratching like a maniac and it turned out that he needed to ground his tank. He had stray electricity in his tank from a heater.> I really like this bunch and would not want to lose them. Should I put them all in the 10 gal (it'll be crowded but they should be ok with lots of water changes) and treat with copper? How long? Inverts too? <You can't treat the Condy with copper, it will trash out big time.>  Condy too? When I stop treating with copper (Mardel chelated) I will do a water change, is 50% sufficient?  <You've lost me, is 50% sufficient for the quarantine tank? Or for the original tank? I would suggest a quarantine tank with fresh water and using Praziquantel if you decide that its not stray current. Prazi works amazingly well on parasites of all types.>

Marine ich treatment Hello, <Howdy> My 400 gallon tank has been running for 2 years without any white spot problems. I have always quarantined my fish as you say. 1 week ago I moved house to just up the street. The fish were put in a giant barrel but were obviously stressed out by the whole affair. The big tank was going again after 6 hours. Then the next day, the tangs have ich. The regal tang and the sailfin are the worst, the purple has quite a lot of dots and my clown trigger now is getting them. So do you think it was already in my water and the stress caused it? <Yes... appears so> They are eating and swimming around ok but it will just get worse, right? <Maybe... perhaps not> My local fish "expert" says the fish are strong and they will fight off the infection on their own and taking out all the rock and moving them again will make it worse. But I go with you lot at WWM every time. <Could go either way here> I have read the article on treating it on 2 fronts. I just need to clarify a few things. For the fresh water dip, should I use RO water or tap water? <Tap> I have 10 fish all between 3 and 6 inches. How big a quarantine tank should I use, should I use 2 quarantine tanks to give them plenty space? <A hundred gallons or more> And will they not stress with no rocks to hide in at bedtime? <Yes... a good idea to provide chemically inert decor like PVC pipe, parts...> I have a hang on filter system for the quarantine tank, if I use filter material i.e.. bioballs, coral chips from the main tank, will it be ready straight away to put the fish in? <Yes... though realize the biological filter will be killed by chemical treatment as you list below> Are there any brands of copper you recommend? We have a few here, Cuprazin etc... Many Thanks, James (worried) <A main brand of chelated or not copper sulfate... Copper Power, CopperSafe... with a test kit for either. Bob Fenner> 

Re: Coral Beauty and Tang in quarantine tank <...  Even by freshwater dipping? This may not be  ich/crypt> Thank you for your prompt answer yesterday.  I had been  watching every day but had not checked after noon.  The dips (pH/temp adj.) seem to work quite well, but the next  day or two the ICH is right back. <Mmm, are you (re)placing the fish/es back into the same system they were in? The system itself is infested...> I finally dropped the S.G. to 1.017  maybe 3 days ago, today's water change now it's 1.015.  Have not seen white  or black spot on either fish.  The tang is clean and acting pretty  normal.   The coral beauty is another story.  I found several  things on your site warning about copper, and one advising formalin and  Methylene blue.  Not being a rocket scientist, I figured out the formalin  was causing the problems with the coral beauty, but only after a couple of days,  during which the fish went pretty far downhill.  Today the white patches  seem much smaller, it is acting less stressed, but the color is quite pale, and  the fins are somewhat ragged.   I am now still using the Methylene Blue, and just gave a half-dose of  Maracyn to see how they do.  Is this a proper course of action?  <Yes... though the Dwarf Angel will not fare well, long at such reduced spg> Even though I read though and searched as much as possible I had to take action  quickly.  Found lots of stuff about copper but didn't research  formalin and coral beauties enough, judging by your answer.  Thanks  again.  Kevin     <... time to start back, way back in your education, planning, aquarium keeping... learn to avoid (simple to do) such troubles. Bob Fenner>Learning Curve for New Aquarists: QT and Ich links 5/10/05 Anthony, Thanks for your answers and suggestions. I have read so many things it seems to all blend together. <Understood my friend. But no worries... you are just looking for a consensus among reliable sources. Internet information can be rather dubious at times too - be careful. Books are generally reliable, but dated (slow time to print). A local aquarium society is really a great place for current and objective information in many ways. Do look for a local club at the club forums on Reefcentral.com  Better yet, perhaps, go to MASNA.org (the society of societies) and send them an e-mail asking for a list of clubs in your region> It seems when I read allot of the FAQ, it assumes that a certain level of knowledge already exists. <Hmmm... not so much an assumption, but rather that each individual query is answered (we try at least) on the level of perceived experience. Do be resourceful when you come across hobby words you do not know. A simple google search or use of the search tool on that given website you are using will usually do the trick. Many hobby sites keep a list or thread of definitions to help new folks like yourself :)> In my case it took me 20 minutes to realize that when you said DSB you were referring to Deep Sand Beds. (you were right?) Yes you may laugh but I am really not joking. <Ah, yes... my fault. Indeed, I was referring to deep sand as a means of denitrification (nitrate reduction) for you. Most folks use a "DSB" (deep bed in their tanks)... but the same can be done (nitrate control) with a bucket full of sand tapped inline to the display or sump. It is a very cheap and easy upgrade> Where can I get a copy of your book would go buy immediately? <Hmmm... since I don't know where you live, I can only recommend that you take a peek at the list of dealers and distributors for our books: http://www.readingtrees.com/dealers.html> I Read allot of the Dummy series of books because it breaks things down for the "NEW GUY". <I must say with regret, while I rarely find such fault with established book series/authors... the dummy type series is a disappointingly dubious source of information. Some of the information in is inconsistent with accepted safe and successful aquarium husbandry (we saw in one such book a recommendation that cleaner wrasses were suitable fish for beginners. The truth is that they are so difficult (!) for experts that we even contemplate their collection/use in the hobby at all! Absolutely dismal rates of mortality on import :(> Is there some where I can get a basic breakdown on exactly how and what is needed to set up an "inline DSB filter"? And exactly how and what is needed to set up a Quarantine tank. <This is all in the archives of big free content websites like wetwebmedia.com and reefcentral.com  Do learn by experimentation to finesse/manipulate various keyword/phrase searches with the search tool (Google.com in general... and again, a given websites specific tool like the one on our wetwebmedia.com home page and: http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/search.php?s= As for QT articles, for example... if you do a keyword search here on WWM for "quarantine by" (a strategic way to get a hit on an article by using the word "by" that would/will usually appear with an author credit... you get many hits for FAQS, posts and an article on the first page returned for: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/quarinverts.htm and at RC... a must read from WWM friend Steven Pro: http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-10/sp/feature/index.htm and another http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-07/sp/feature/index.htm> The LFS here is really no help at all, some don't know, and others real in the glory that they can speak over your head and try and sell you allot of things not needed. <Very sorry to hear it, but that doesn't make them bad or useless at all. It should inspire you to become a better (educated) consumer so that you can get the most out of their service and convenience> I have had fresh water tanks for years and try to have a basic understanding of some of the things that transfer from fresh to salt water. I know just enough to be dangerous is what I say. I understand the importance of water quality and equipment but don't know exactly what and how to achieve the goal in salt water. When I read through the FAQ's I seem to get more confused. <Let me strongly recommend that you temporarily tune out the Internet chatter, gossip, truths and mistruths... and get yourself two time-tested and very reliable books: first read Mike Paletta's "New Marine Aquarium" then read Robert Fenner's "Conscientious Marine Aquarist" I promise you that if you take the time and have the patience to NOT BUY any new living creatures until you have read these books, you will clarify so much more of what you read later (like on the Internet) that follows. And you will be a much more successful aquarist for it. Please take my (very experienced, if I may say) advise... and consider that I have nothing to sell you in giving such advice :) I just hope to see you succeed my friend.> (I do learn allot from them but not how to put it all together) I leave with the feeling of "ok I understand the concept and importance of the subject but not how to obtain the result." <You are missing the fundamentals, yes. Do read a fundamental book like Paletta's and the journey will begin properly... and you will be less confused reading Net tidbits later> I really want to do the right things and my money definitely does not grow on trees. (I have spent at least 1500 to 2000 on things that I was told I needed and come to find out that I didn't and am to the end of my budget) the sad thing is I really have read and researched thing and still got it wrong. <This is where a local aquarium club membership/participation REALLY pays off.> Now what I am trying to do is get a few things a month starting with the most important ones first. I am done buying fish till I get everything on track. <Whew! Excellent to hear. Its very sensible my friend> It seems that this DSB inline filter should be one of the first which is why I asked for the how to location. I appreciate all your and the crews help and will end this shortly so you can get to others also. Once I get the Quarantine and DSB done I will inquire as to what is next so to speak. Update on Hippo.... Both eyes are now clouded over (almost like cataracts). She is also developing what I believe to be ich. <Yikes! This fish needs to get into a bare-bottomed QT tank with meds immediately. Please take Steven Pros advice in his two articles listed above to heart!> I gave her a 15 minute freshwater bath and she has made it through the night. Will repeat this. Any suggestions on what else I can do would be great. I can set up the quarantine tank as hospital first for her if that would help, but again not sure what is needed or how to set one up. I was also thinking of trying a cleaner goby or wrasse as I have read they eat parasites off other fish. Is this a good thing to try or more harm then good at this point? PS... If you have a site or a way to buy your book over the net I would gladly purchase one immediately. Thanks a million from me and all those you help. Warren <It is much cheaper to buy our books through dealers (unless you care for a signed copy, in which case you can go to readingtrees.com). But thank you for your interest. Above all... kudos to you for your efforts to succeed in the hobby. I can assure you that it gets much easier in time. A most pleasurable hobby and science. Anthony :)> SPS and ich Hi Bob, <Ramy> I always quarantine any new fish before introducing it to my reef tank. My dealer has a closed system where he keeps SPS and fish. Some of his fish show some ich, so how can I prevent transmitting ich when buying corals from the same water that has the parasite ??? <Run them through a prophylactic dip/bath as proscribed for both groups, on WWM... and the quarantine period... Bob Fenner> 

White spots on fish - Icky Ich 5/6/05 Hi,...a quick question or two, or three if you don't mind,.....it is the middle of the night, & I just realized that the fish in my 10 gallon nano tank are covered in white spots. <this is the common time to see Crypt, indeed... cycles/stages between day/night) (I bought a rock with mushroom corals on it yesterday & placed it in that tank, without quarantining (sp?) it first ... I'm sure that was the culprit!) <Agreed... it is quite possible. Risky even if not the cause. There is no shame in this mistake as long as you don't repeat it in the future> anyhow, I have read the literature about "ich" and I am planning to do a fresh water dip in the morning and remove the fish to another tank, ....the problem is that I don't have a tank that is "cycled" <no worries... this is a common wonder/complaint. For future reference... always keep a small sponge filter running on the main display at all times in case of such emergencies (to have an instant bio-filter). In this case, daily water changes for the first eight days (siphoning the complete bottom of the QT aquarium) will not only keep water quality in check... but it also will break the life cycle of the parasite> ...The infected livestock include 2 domino damsels, 1 false percula clown & a coral beauty angel fish. ....(yes, I know too many fish for a 10 gallon tank, ....I just set up a 55 gallon yesterday, ...to be their future home) Should I set up a quarantine tank in the morning & put all of the fish in it after they are dipped? <yes, please... it may be best in this case> OR Should I dip the fish, do a water change in the affected tank, remove the mushroom rock & hope for the best? <definitely not> OR Should I set up a quarantine tank in the morning & put only the damsels & clown fish in it & take my coral beauty to the ocean & set it free (I live in Florida). <Please tell me that you are not serious about setting free an infected Pacific fish into the Atlantic ocean?!?! Beyond ethical and moral laws... there often are civil laws against it. Its profoundly irresponsible. I know you mean well... but please don't do this... and do understand why this is so VERY bad!> - I'm afraid the angel wouldn't survive the cycling of a tank......but on the other hand, this fish is missing 2 fins, ....& I'm not sure how she would fair in the ocean with predator fish all about. From what I have read, ....correct me if I am wrong, ....but if I remove all of the hosts (fish) from the 10 gallon tank for 4 weeks, the parasites will die from a lack of hosts (by starvation). <the population will be significantly reduced indeed> Then I can place the treated fish back in their home providing they are better? Is this right? <Correct> Should I remove the offending mushroom rock from the tank too?  <Do not move the mushroom or any coral so frequently after newly acquiring it. Its a surefire way to kill/stress it too> How will I know if the fresh water dip worked? ...will the parasites fall right off or burst? <You can sometimes see the drop/results with the naked eye> If this doesn't work, is my next option is to use a copper treatment in the quarantine tank? <Perhaps... please see our info on this issue in the wetwebmedia.com archives, as well as the fab articles from Steve Pro in back issues of Reefkeeping.com. Great stuff on Ich!> If you set up a tank to be used as a quarantine tank, and add a couple of damsels to "cycle" it, ....what happens if you take those damsels out for a month are so, ....will all the good bacteria die and the tank will no longer be cycled? <Correct again... that's more or less the case> I'm sorry for so many questions but I am fairly new to this hobby, I value your advice, & I don't want to make any more mistakes. <No worries... please do consider buying/reading Mike Paletta's "New Marine Aquarium", Fenner's "Conscientious Marine Aquarist"... and Dick Mills "Marine Encyclopedia"> P.S. The domino damsels are a mated pair & all of these fish eat out of my hand. Please help. Thank you in advance for your prompt reply, Julie  P. S. S. I do have an 8 gallon tank on my patio that I tried to cycle with a piece of dead shrimp, I tested the water & sure enough, it went through the nitrite/nitrate process, however, the piece of shrimp disappeared & I forgot to replace it, .....it has been running without shrimp or anything in it for about a month,.....is this tank still "cycled"? <Yes... to a small extent. It can take a small fish or two> & would it be a good quarantine tank for my coral beauty? ( it does have live sand in it) Last Question, ...I promise =) <Hmmm... it may be better to get the angel into isolation. The 8 gallon is fine if you wave the time to do water changes as needed. kindly, Anthony> Serious ich problem at work in a LFS Dear Bob, <Eric> First and foremost, I would like to thank you for a quick response concerning my clowns.  Sorry to bother again, but I need some good advice about a problem at work.  I work at small mom & pop type local fish store.   We sell both fresh and saltwater fish and supplies.  We have a good reputation for being an honest store, with a greater interest for the customer rather than making a quick sale.  However, we have a rather serious problem with marine ich in our saltwater system. <These can be... real trouble... as we know. Tanks tied up with unsaleable stock, bad examples...> The tanks are not individual; they are run on one main filtration/sump system.  I have pinpointed several tanks that always lead to fish being heavily infested with ich within just a couple days of coming in.  We can't really use copper or hyposalinity, as it would kill the inverts that are housed in the other tanks since it's really all one large system. <First real trouble... you need to have at least two separate recirculation systems> The fish usually end up dying, and I refuse to sell infected fish to customers. <This is wise> I really hate to see these beautiful fish come in perfectly healthy just to die gasping for life a week later.  Can anything be done? <Mmm, yes... a few approaches. The simplest short term is to turn the infested systems off, bleach them (after moving the livestock to separate treatment quarters of course)> As long as fish keep going in the tanks, the ich will always have a host to thrive on.  Not being the store owner, I don't know what I can do to help if anything at all can be done.   Please help. Eric <Am sure the store owner realizes the situation, feels that it is self-defeating to not act... Again, the only real long-term solution is to re-plumb the tanks, make separate fish.... and invertebrate sub-systems... where hyposalinity and copper can be applied to the fishes side. Bob Fenner... who has done all this... for retail, collecting stations...>

Help with Ick, help yourself Hi, I have a few questions for you today.  Just to let you know, I've been reading articles from your website for years now, and I've read your articles on the questions I'm about to ask you, but I believe in covering all bases before doing something.  I think your site has the best fish info on the internet.  With the butt-kissing aside.  I have several questions.  I have a 110 gallon salt tank with a Maculosus Angel, a Coral Beauty, a Fiji Parrot, a Purple Tang, a Purple Firefish, and 2 Sebae Clownfish.  I also have several serpent starfish, a blue lobster, snails, hermits, etc.  I think my Maculosus Angel and Purple Tang have Ich, but I'm not sure. They don't scratch at all.  And the white dots sort of come and go, one day its looks like a lot, the next it doesn't. <Of all possibilities, this does sound like ich/crypt>   Also, the dots are not really predominant like actually specs of salt, but they look faded.  They other fish; the 2 clowns the coral beauty, and the purple firefish and the Parrotfish don't have anything on them.  The 2 fish that seem to have Ich eat very well, swim around all the time, and never scratch.  Should I be concerned?????? <Yes, I would be>    I thought that if you have an outbreak of Ich in your tank, than every fish would have it?? <Mmm, not necessarily... you have a "sort of" infestation... can become hyperinfective... with a shift of circumstances disfavoring the host fishes> And yet, only 2 of my fish seem to do.  I am considering treating my tank with "Ick-Attack" for a week.  I know, I know, your site preaches doing a quarantine tank, but I figured I try this "herbal" and not "chemical" treatment first.  Any knowledge on this product???? <Only what I've seen via Google search... "smells like Worstershire Sauce"...>    OK, since I don't know what kind of advice you are going to give me, my last question is on setting up a quarantine tank.  Like I've stated, I have a 110 gallon tank. <This is too small for a Maculosus Angel...>   I found an old 30 gallon which I could use for the quarantine tank.  My question is how do you set this tank up.   <Sigh... posted on WWM> Don't I have to cycle this tank for another 4-6 weeks before I put my fish into it???   By that time, many changes and occurrences could happen in my display tank.  And won't my fish be stressed out in such a smaller tank that it could kill them???   Do I need to buy a protein skimmer for the quarantine tank????   And, what kind of medicine do I treat the fish with in the quarantine tank????   Oh, and one more question.  Do I need to do a fresh water dip with the fish that are being treated in the QT???  And after you do a fresh water dip, do you have to acclimate the fish again before putting them back into the QT????   I'm sorry for so many questions, but I really value your opinion.  Thanks. <All posted, along with much other information you need... on WWM. Bob Fenner> More re: Marine ich, copper use ... reading Dear Bob, <James> Thank you for your reply.  I understand the parasite kept reproducing and re infecting the fish.  I thought the Cuprazin was supposed to kill the parasite in it's free floating stage. <Does...> The Cuprazin instructions just say add 15 drops per 10 gallons once a day, nothing about measuring the amount of copper. <Mmm, well, I did... understand that copper is not stable in seawater... very simply put, it falls out of solution in alkaline environments differentially, given skimming, many issues of water chemistry... and thus is almost worthless to use w/o testing>   It says it is chelated.  Every time the spots went away I presumed the Cuprazin had worked. <Mmm, once again, you resist reading on WWM... for point infestations, often all "spots" will cycle off w/o any action by the aquarist... part of their life-cycle... > Would I have saved the fish if I'd removed him to a new quarantine tank after the spots had vanished? <Not likely w/o other treatment... some parasite fauna would almost surely be transferred with their hosts... the spots on the fish are "not them"...> The trouble is here in Cape Town there are only around 3 dealers.  When they get fish they are all sold within a day.  So you barely get a chance to check out the fish for a few days in the dealers tanks.  If you wait before you buy then the fish will be gone.  They sell the fish as quickly as possible incase there is anything wrong with them.  Not a good thing eh! <Agreed... all the more need, justification for acclimation procedures including dips/baths and quarantine> Many Thanks in advance, James. <Keep studying James... cheaper than ignorance, experimentation. Bob Fenner>

Re: Help with Ick, still not reading... Hi Bob, thanks for your advice...again.  You said I have a "sort of" infestation because only 2 of my 8 fish seem to have it.  Is this a "better" time to treat it with something like Ick Attack because I'm catching it at an early stage, instead of setting up a QT???? <Nope... the "ways to treat", rationale are all... still posted on WWM... read them> In your opinion, are products like Ick Attack more effective on a small infestation, rather than if all 8 of my fish had it?????   Thanks again. Jeff. <This product is a scam... I would not use it for anything... you've been swindled... study my friend. Bob Fenner>

Red Sea Fishes... crypt, copper use Hi, <Hello> Over the past two years I have successfully quarantined around 10 fish.  None of them came down with anything and they are all fine and dandy in my 400 gallon tank.  Then, I purchased a Green bird wrasse and lipstick tang from the Red Sea. <Okay> They came down with white spot so I used Cuprazin, a chelated copper treatment.  The white spot went away and came back 3 times. The 3rd time they were completely covered, started to go lopsided and died within 6 hours. <Successive reproduction of the parasite, weakening of hosts... hyperinfection. Did you use a copper (chelated variety) test kit? You did not maintain a physiological dose of cupric ion>   My 50 gallon quarantine tank was properly set up with filter material from my main sump.  So, ammonia was 0, nitrite 0, kH 10, ph 8.4. Everything ok.  And they were eating and swimming well until 3rd hit of whitespot.  Nightmare.  So, 6 months later a Red Sea Asfur Angel catches my eye, so I buy him. Again he gets white spot minutes after going into quarantine, <Mmm, you do understand your actual system has the Cryptocaryon? It will be there, ready to infest any/all, but mostly new fishes... until eradicated> same pattern, 3 rd time he's covered and dies the same way after 6 hours.  I'm so upset.  Is the Cuprazin a rubbish product or is there something more deadly with the red sea whitespot?  After the 2nd hit he was so well so I presumed he was better.  This has really put me of buying anymore fish for a long time. Kind Regards, James. <James, you apparently have a generally thorough understanding of marine aquarium keeping, but an incomplete one re marine ich... Do yourself and giant favor and read over the archived materials on WWM re marine parasitic disease en toto, Cryptocaryon... and the use of copper compounds. Bob Fenner>

How to (and not to) fight marine ich Okay, bear with me < Okay >......After doing a few weeks of research on wet web and other places, my eyes crossed and I went ahead and started a marine tank.  I talked to Oceanpros who told me a Berlin method was best. < Really?  They could be correct but I don't know anyone in favor of the Berlin method. > SOOOOO.....I started with their awesome 2.15 a pound semi-cured live rock and a different web sites crushed Florida coral (yes I know...that coral was a LFS suggestion 2-3"....yes a poop/death trap)  This is in a 55 long by the way. < Well I don't think of a Berlin method as having any sand, but I like lots of sand. > Also I purchased a Red Sea Deluxe skimmer (with media bin and a cup thing that takes the water from the surface, not 1/2 way in the tank) 2 AquaClear 402 or 50's power heads and of course a heater.  80 degrees and 22 salinity.   NOW, I put the live rock in to cycle the tank with the cc and about a week in, ammonia, nitrites, spiking and I come across a blurb about how that can kill sponges and good stuff on the rock. (oh, PS I have a JBJ Formosa 260w light to aid in live rock growth...working great!)  So in a panic I do like a 90% water change (keeping the rock warm and circulating in a plastic bin). < I wouldn't have done the water change.  That spike is normal and needed to get the bacteria growing.  The levels will drop on their own, just give it a few weeks. > Then I find out I didn't have to do that and that the growth would have returned after the spike subsided. < Yep. > The next day or so I noticed not much of a spike (as I gently pulled of the nasty stuff off the rock before putting it back in.)  Then I threw in damsels as I would like to put in 2 or 3 fish after cycling, not one and I figured the extra poo from the damsels would make the extra bio-load increase the biological filtration to support a few new fish in the near future not just one. < If this is going to be a reef tank I would not have added fish yet.  I'd start adding some simple corals.  If it is to be a fish only tank, then I guess that was the next step. > Another week in, got the brown algae bloom....as expected, (used hose water to fill tank.....yes I was told that is okay to START a tank, I will use water softener and R/O for water additions and changes) < I use tap water and probably always will. > and added 2 hermits and 4 turbo snails.  All water parameters were improving as my cycling the following week or so is coming to its end. < This is when I would add a couple small fish. > NOW I SEE DOTS ON THE Damsels.  SO in doing research on Marine Ich, I find the pros and cons of UV Sterilizing and then that ICH is manageable in a reef tank.  Now I am mad that I didn't QT the Damsels (I figured it was for cycling, so why bother....okay I am NEW, give me a break....lol :P) < Yes some QT would have been a good idea, and I'd hate to just think of damsels as disposable cyclers. >  A few days before the dots, I noticed my peanut worm....a hitchhiker decided to come out of a hole in the rock and to the cc....BAD choice on his part....needless to say...RIP.  I was sad that he was stabbed to death by the CC!!!  So in my new found irritation with CC, I have decided to go with play sand (aragonite) from my local home depot (I am in VEGAS and yes they do sell it here out west unlike what some of the internet people say) < I'd stick with crushed coral.  Much better stuff if you can afford it.  By the way I'm 5 hours North of you and our Home Depot's don't carry it. > So in my quest to eradicate ICH....or KILL most of it, I am going to put the damsels in my plastic bin thing with the rock and everything......heater, pumps etc., and EMPTY the tank, use HOT water to clean it, take out all the crushed coral, refill with filtered water instead of HOSE water....yes I know, I am NEW, like I said..... and re-rinse the rock in the same water parameters they are in, just not with ICH spores, and add them back to the tank when the tank is filled and warm again and then the sand and finally the inverts.  Will this kill and rid me of the ICH??  < TERRIBLE IDEA.  Please don't do this.  First of all, if you remove the fish that should be good enough.  It is called going fallow.  You just have the tank fish free for a few weeks (lets say 6) and their won't be any more ich parasites in the tank.  But even if there is, don't worry.  People are way to use to the freshwater world of getting rid of ich.  In marine tanks you really shouldn't worry about it.  I'm sure I have ich in my tank, so what?  Just keep a healthy tank and the fish will be able to fight the parasites and not show signs of problems.  So do not start the tank over, just keep going. > Oh, yes the skimmer and pumps nets, yadda yadda, will be rinsed in very HOT water as well to kill any ICH....or will that not work? If so, how long in the hot water?  The Damsels will be returned to the store I got them from (since they are the idiots who gave me sick fish in the first place) and I will get my 1/3 credit on return toward a brittle star and Nassarius snails....yes I spelled that wrong....I am NEW remember! lol! < Try not to worry so much about the nets and pumps and things like that.  Just about any coral or fish you buy will have some ich with it.  Don't worry and don't try to get rid of it. > One more question.... I am going with 2" sand that will be populated with whatever the rock has of course over time of course and I am NOT doing a DSB....sorry, I have read your entire site and I am going with the 2" with a few sifters. < No problem. > So, any suggestions, ideas, punishments, or praises? < Well I like DSB but if you don't want deep sand I'd at least make sure you have a nice skimmer.  But really, don't worry about ich, just try focusing on growing healthy live rock. > Thanks! Carrie <  Blundell  > Trophonts & Ich First I would like to thank you for all of the information on your website. I have found it invaluable in helping me with my salt water hobby. I have been fish keeping over 20 years and I have yet to conquer an outbreak of Ich. I have learned (the hard way) the importance of quarantine and my most recent purchase (Purple Tang) was placed there last Friday. On Monday I saw the 'spots' and decided on hyposalinity as a treatment. Lowered the salt to 1.012, started feeding him 'garlic extreme' on his food etc., etc. (this fish had a great appetite). By the following weekend everything had cleared up. I was elated !!! You can imagine my shock the following day when I checked him he was covered with Ich. I tried fresh water dips to NO avail. I read Steven Pro's excellent article on Marine Ich but the problem of how to get rid of the Trophont stage when the parasite is on the fish is not addressed. It seems the only time the parasite is vulnerable is when it is in the free swimming stage. I could not save my poor fish. He died two days later, still covered with parasites. Is there a way to get the parasite off the fish???? This is very discouraging. Any advice is greatly appreciated. Thanks, Carol >>>Hello Carol, You cannot circumvent the life cycle of the pathogen. You MUST quarantine and treat with hypo long enough for the parasite to do its thing/complete it's life cycle. Trying to remove the Trophonts is futile. I suggest you read up on this parasite - C. irritans. Jim<<< 

Trophonts & Ich - part Deux... Thanks for your quick response Jim ! I cannot begin to tell you the numerous articles I have read on the subject. I DID quarantine and at the first sign of trouble I lowered the salinity.  Why dip the fish if it has no effect on the Trophonts? Should I have dipped him before putting him in quarantine? I think that would cause unnecessary stress. In order for the parasite to complete its cycle it attacks (& kills) the fish!! Apparently the low salinity, dips, food etc did not interrupt the life cycle. I am tired of the parasite winning the battle! >>>Hello again Carol, Killing the fish is not part of the parasites life cycle, only in a VERY acute infection that has not been treated does the fish finally die. Dipping the fish is NOT recommended as it will not affect the Trophont stage. Dipping does cause the fish stress and will only kill any free swimming Theronts that HAPPEN To be on the fish, not a likely scenario so dipping is best avoided. Dropping the salinity will kill the Theronts, but you have to give the cycle time for the Theronts to emerge - raising the temperature expedites the process. Cheers Jim<<<

Trophonts Part Cuatro Hello Jim!! Before you put a contract out on my life I have to tell you this fish was parasite free on Sunday night, eating a variety of foods and doing terrific.. Apparently the Theronts emerged en masse and despite the salinity of 1.012 they destroyed my fish in 2 days as I stood helplessly watching. Jim, raising the temp would only allow more Theronts to emerge and attach to my fish. (my poor fish being the only meal). Despite all I have read I have yet to have a fish survive ich. Surely wish I knew what I am doing wrong :< >>>Raising the temp allows more Theronts to emerge and be killed by the hypo or meds quicker - really, I'm not making this stuff up... If you do not have the salinity low enough, then yes you will end up with a dead fish faster. Jim<<<