FAQs on Marine Ich, Cryptocaryoniasis & Treating Sensitive
Fishes: Angels and Butterflies
FAQs
on Angel Disease: Angel
Disease 1, Angel
Disease 2, Angel Disease 3,
Angel Disease 4,
FAQs on Angel Disease by Category:
Diagnosis, Environment,
Nutrition, Social,
Trauma, Pathogenic,
Genetic, Treatments
Related Articles: Marine Ich: Fighting The War On Two Fronts
Cryptocaryoniasis, Parasitic
Disease, Quarantine,
Quarantine of Marine
Fishes,
FAQs on Butterflyfish Disease:
Butterflyfish
Disease,
Butterflyfish Disease 2,
Angels and Butterflyfishes &
Crypt,
FAQs on Butterflyfish Disease by
Category: Diagnosis,
Environmental,
Nutritional, Social,
Trauma,
Infectious, Parasitic,
Treatments
Related FAQs:
Best Crypt
FAQs, Crypt FAQs 1, Crypt FAQs 2, Crypt
FAQs 3, Crypt FAQs 4, Crypt FAQs 5, Crypt FAQs 6, Crypt FAQs
7, Crypt FAQs 8, Crypt
FAQs 9, Crypt FAQs 10, Crypt FAQs 11, Crypt FAQs 12, Crypt
FAQs 13, Crypt FAQs 14,
Crypt FAQs 15, Crypt FAQs 16, Crypt FAQs 17,
Crypt FAQs 18, Crypt FAQs 19, Crypt FAQs 20, Crypt FAQs 21, Crypt FAQs 22, Crypt FAQs 23, Crypt FAQs 24, Crypt
FAQs 25, Crypt FAQs 26, Crypt FAQs 27, Crypt
FAQs 28 & FAQs on Crypt:
Identification, Prevention, "Causes", Phony Cures That Don't Work, Cures That Do Work, Products That
Work By Name: Free Copper/Cupric Ion
Compounds (e.g. SeaCure), Chelated Coppers (e.g. Copper Power,
), Formalin Containing: (e.g.
Quick Cure), About: Hyposalinity & Ich, Treating for Crypt & Sensitive
Fishes:
|
Pomacanthids, Chaetodontids and
Crypt...
Not as "catching" or
sensitive to the pathogen or its treatments as Tangs... but more
so than some "average" for marine fishes. Low dosage
treatments, environmental manipulation, steps to bolster immune
systems...
|
|
Butterflyfishes for Marine
Aquariums
Diversity, Selection & Care
New eBook on Amazon: Available
here
New Print Book on Create Space: Available
here
by Robert (Bob) Fenner |
Angelfishes for Marine Aquariums
Diversity, Selection & Care
New eBook on Amazon: Available
here
New Print Book on Create Space: Available
here
by Robert (Bob) Fenner |
|
Crypt, Angel... 10/6/19
Good afternoon,
I have a 3 spot angel in a 70g QT that had a mild case of crypt successfully
treated with Cupramine . Eating pellets ( New Life Spectrum ) and anything
frozen . Unfortunately after copper treatment developed cloudy eyes.
<Can happen>
Left greater than right . I am feeding pellets soaked in kanamycin ,
Nitrofurantoin , and metronidazole ( seachem). Doing better after 3 days .
Water changes daily . Nitrates 10. Anything else to recommend ?
<Mmm; not at this juncture. Have you lowered spg?>
I know this genus , species is tough to keep but this fish has been exceptional
and do not want to lose him/ her ?
Thank you, Jimmy
<DO please search, read on WWM re Pomacanthids, marine angelfishes and copper
use; other treatments for Cryptocaryon. Bob Fenner>
re: 10/6/19
Thank you , I am lowering the sg . I know this is a tough genus / species to
keep . Thx, Jimmy
<Cheers, BobF>
What looks like the crypt but is not?
10/3/19
Good day everyone,
Love this sight, always have, you all do a splendid job here.
<Ah, thank you for your kind, encouraging words>
My heart was on the floor this morning when I saw my purple tang and
regal tang covered in what appears to be Cryptocaryon irritans at first
glance but is clearly different on a more closer inspection.
<Mmm; well, there are other parasites, even "just congealed body mucus"
that may appear as such. The only definitive means of telling what is
what is to sample, examine with a microscope; as gone over on WWM and
most fish disease tomes>
210 gallon tank FWLR, stocked with angels and tangs.
Ammonia 0 of course
Nitrite 0, nitrate 12, phosphate 0.2
We run carbon, GFO, employ NOPOX and change our socks every other day.
This tank was established from zero-the long hard way of bleached rocks
and new equipment with a 2 month cycle.
We quarantine each fish as we have been rung through twice before.
<Hard to exclude the principal pathogens, but it reads that you've done
your best to>
We did just add 4 new fish in the span of 3 months, all quarantined.
My question is what disease is similar looking to ich? And what can we
do about it?
<I WOULD sample and examine as stated; in the meanwhile (ASAP) likely
drop (slowly, a few hundredths per day) specific gravity... begin
reading re your options (copper, anti-malarials...) on WWM:
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ichartmar.htm
and the linked files above>
Many thanks,
Evelyn
<Do please keep me/us informed of continuing developments, your actions,
thoughts. Bob Fenner>
Re: What looks like the crypt but is not?
10/4/19
Dear Mr. Fenner,
<Evelyn>
What an honor to receive an email from you having had read SO many of
your posts during research and hard times.
<Ahh!>
I failed to mention that we have been ich free for about 1 1/2 years, I
am quite sure the we nuked the horrendous, dreadful mofo of a
parasite...(throat clear)...
<Ah yes... very hard to eliminate, exclude from captive systems>
A skin smear is near impossible. And the only fish vet in the
surrounding area will not come to the house though I offered extra
payment.
<Easy enough to do by oneself; really>
The last time we went through this I ordered from Fishman Chemicals $350
worth of “pure” CP from America to Canada. It was a disaster. It was not
effective and cost me the lives of my beloved fish. I have used CP
before that a courteous and sympathetic LFS guy gave to me as a favor
and it did wonders. But that is not available any longer, he may have
got in trouble for giving it to me. I called every pharmacy in town, I
couldn’t get it except from Fishman. We all paid a heavy price with
lives and monetarily.
I think I will start with Cupramine, just dose the whole tank.
Thoughts??
<A worthy product... will state for others/browsers; WITH daily
monitoring, testing for free copper presence, cessation of chemical
filtrant use, possibly turning down, off skimming or running on a
punctuated basis (to retain more copper)>
Does the skimmer matter?
<Oh, yes>
Nopox with Cupramine? Does anyone have experience??
<In looking for the MSDS of this Red Sea product, I found this:
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/carbon-dosing-and-or-macroalgae-right-for-me.426442/
I suspect the totality of the ingredients include water and No3-po4-X,
it has acetic acid, ethanol, and methanol. I would hold off (not use)
this or other treatments during the Cupramine administration.
Bob Fenner>
Re: What looks like the crypt but is not?
10/4/19
Many thanks Mr. Fenner,
<Ms. Monroy>
I shall indeed keep you posted. Ever thank you for your hasty reply to
me.
<Ah, I thank you. BobF>
Kind Regards,
Evelyn
Re: What looks like the crypt but is not?
10/4/19
Ummm, even if a skin smear is possible and it shows what parasite it is,
would the treatment still be Cupramine? If not copper then what?!
<I am (yes, olde) still a huge fan of (appropriate) use of
copper/compounds. Have used actually hundreds of gallons (by four
one-gallon packs) over decades time. VERY effective used correctly. B>
Tinkeri with ich
Hello Wetweb Media Crew! I hope this email finds you all well. I currently have
a Tinkeri Butterflyfish in QT. I've had him for almost 2 weeks now and have
gotten him to eating a lot. This morning i noticed some fine white spots on the
black, part of his body. I think its ich.
<Mmm; maybe, may be not. I would NOT be treating w/o confirming this via
sampling and microscope use>
What medicine can I use on him as I understand they do not tolerate copper based
medicines so well? I currently have him on Paraguard. But a lot of forums say it
really isn't very effective against ich?
<Mmm; aldehydes can be effective... like other medications, S.O.P.s, NEED to be
administered under propitious/ideal conditions>
Would love to hear your thoughts as I would hate to lose this fish.
<Oh, I do understand. Have spent hundreds of hours looking for Tinker's in
Hawaii>
Many thanks!
Kathy
<I would first try a pH adjusted (and aerated) freshwater bath; moving this fish
in the process; either to the main/display or a new/clean isolation system.
Please read here Re: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/dips_baths.htm
Bob Fenner>
Reviewing ick treatment for Bannerfish...
some reading, review on WWM NOW!
7/8/14
Dearest Bob & Crew,
<Joe>
Hope that this email finds you in great spirits.
<Ah yes; thank you>
Just a quick question today. I ordered some schooling Bannerfish from
Kevin at Pacific Island Aquatics in Oahu (great guy!). Unfortunately my
son had to go in for surgery and I was forced to dip them and forgo the
quarantine. My entire fish population was wiped out!
<Yikes>
I was able to order some more today and plan on doing it the correct way
this time (tank has been fallow for over 2 months). Please let me know
how this procedure looks:
1) Acclimate fish to quarantine tank- pH, temp, salinity etc. taking
about 45 minutes.
<Mmm, are you based in Hawaii? I would follow the SOP for commercial
acclimation archived on WWM IF the fish have been bagged for hours>
2) Perform freshwater dip (pH and temp matched of course). Last time I
did 2 minutes. Some of banners showed some signs of discomfort. Perhaps
longer this time?
<See WWM... re dips/baths... I would add some formalin>
3) Add to quarantine tank and monitor.
<Ok>
4) If signs of ick appear, treat immediately.
<With... CP?>
Do you think that a copper treatment or hyposalinity would be better?
I'm leaning towards treating with Seachem's Cupramine.
<See... WWM... re quinine compounds>
The banners seemed to eat fairly well last time (although pickier then
others and slower to acclimate to captive foods). Any other suggestions?
<All sorts... See WWM re Heniochus period>
Thanks so much!!!
Joe
<Welcome! Bob Fenner>
Longnose butterfly; CP burn?
3/19/14
Good evening Bob, and crew,
I am in need of advise <advice>. I am treating my fish in a hospital
tank for Ich. I had outbreaks years ago, all the fish but a tang pulled
thru, no treatment
<Ah, good>
other than frequent water changes and continued good water quality. The
tang was treated with copper.
<?>
Over the years I have had only a few fish in my DT and recently started
adding fish per your "ok" on my planned additions. Of course this has
upset the balance of a lovely aquarium, and three weeks later a couple
fish have spots and some distress. I pulled the distressed fish, and I
started copper treatment in a hospital tank. Ammonia could not be
controlled so I decided to try using Chloroquine phosphate per The
Marine Fish Health & Feeding Handbook instructions.
<Very good>
I set up a new 30 gallon tank with mature biological filtration. I am
four days into it and all the fish look great and are behaving healthy.
All except the Longnose butterfly. The butterfly fish was never in the
copper, btw. He has good color, and is eating NLS pellets. The issue is
that all along his back where his dorsal spines meet his body is notably
swollen, and his scales are standing out in that area, like a localized
dropsy. I can not get a good picture of him, sorry. Any suggestions
would be appreciated.
Victoria
<Mmm, I'd keep an eye on this Forcipiger... and be ready to pull it,
possibly do a pH adjusted freshwater dip (SOP on WWM) enroute to
returning it to another main/display sans further treatment. CP
exposure is more touchy with Butterflies (and Angels, and...). I suspect
it is the quinine exposure here that is causing it harm. Bob
Fenner>
Re: Longnose butterfly 3/19/14
Dear Bob,
Thank you for the fast response. I think it might be best to pull him
out tonight. His caudal fin area is swollen too. Again, thank you so
much!
Victoria
<Ah, welcome. BobF>
Update on Emperor. Cu and angels
3/9/14
Hi,
<Adam>
Update for your readers - I decided to strip the copper from my tank
using Seachem's carbon. I was surprised how long it takes but after a
week the copper level was down to 0.1 and I replaced with a second set
of carbon for two reasons, after a week I suspect most of the carbon is
saturated and also if the pH should drop I did not want the copper going
back into the tank.
The Emperor has improved in colour and the blotches have gone. I decided
not to treat for internal parasites as having read up I was concerned
about my bacteria filtration. The Emperor is still eating well and his
weight seems to have stabilised. I am suspicious as to how he was caught
(Cyanide etc) but hope his digestive tract bacteria is returning.
<As the fish is eating; and didn't perish almost immediately from; I
suspect it is fine>
I have learn that Copper is more sensitive to Emperors than to the
mostly harder to keep Regal, Blueface and Majestic Angels, the Regal who
was eating half the time when the Copper was at 0.6 is now eating well.
Kind regards,
Adam.
<Thank you for this report. BobF>
Hole in the head on Majestic and BlueFace Angel
3/9/14
Hi,
<Hello again>
Fortunately after decreasing the amount of copper in the water, 80% of
the "holes" have gone.
Kind regards,
Adam.
<This too. B>
Hopefully you can help my with my sick Tinkers butterfly
1/7/14
Dear WetWebMedia-crew/Bob,
<Tanne>
First I like to compliment you on your website. I really like the way it
has grown organically and I appreciate the information provided a lot. I
email you because I hope you can maybe point me to something I have
overlooked so far. I have copied/pasted my question from the topic I
started on ReefCentral.
<Can't convert these files... would you please just copy and paste them
in a new email to me/us? Will respond to you below>
I really hope you can help me.
Kind regards,
Tanne Hoff
My tinker's butterfly is ill. I bought it 6 months ago and it
has done very well the first 6 months.
< A tough species, sub- and whole genus>
Since it stopped eating last week I decided I should treat for
Cryptocaryon.
<?... why? I would NOT do this>
I set up a small hospital tank using water from the aquarium and I
started treating with a mild dose of malachite green, Methylene
blue and formalin (commercially available fish medicine here sold under
the brand name Femsee),
<Dangerously toxic>
I stuck to these for 2 days.
Yesterday I switched to copper and Furaltadone (broad-spectrum
antibiotic, Nitrofuran derivative). I choose the copper because of what I
have read both on websites such as these and based on the book by G.
Bassleer about fish diseases. The Furaltadone was used because my LFS
advised me to do so as he felt there might be secondary infections. This
LFS mostly knows what they are talking about. I have a Salifert copper
test kit and as I read I should gradually increase the level of the
copper I started with about 0,15 mg/l.
<... has to be higher... 0.20 mg/l (eq. to ppm); but no higher than 0.35
ppm free/cupric ion>
I check nitrites and ammonium daily, so far both are undetectable. Daily
I replace 50% of the water with water from the reef aquarium, I top up
removed medication.
The fish still does not eat.
<Not with being moved, these chemical exposures, no... NEEDS to be moved
back to more agreeable setting, conditions; offered foods it recognizes,
perhaps laced with HUFAs, vitamins as appetite stimulant>
Of course, the main goal is to get the fish completely healthy again,
but I feel I should get it to eating as well. Of course, the fish
probably does not eat because it is ill, but the fact it does not eat
does not help its immune system.
So my main questions are:
- am I doing everything right?
<No; not; see above>
- when could I expect the fish to eat again?
<...? When it is treated better>
All suggestions are more than welcome.
I filled in the questionnaire from the stickies as well.
<... for somewhere else. We don't do this/these on WWM>
Thanks in advance, also on behalf of my fish
1. How old is this aquarium?
Set up in 2006. See the picture I have attached.
2. If less than six months old, what is ammonia level?
..
3. What is SG of this aquarium? How measured?
1.024, spindle
4. When was the last fish added to this aquarium?
August 2013, 5 small Anthias cooperi which all do very well.
5. Was it quarantined? If so, how? And how long? Was it prophylactically
treated? How?
Kept in a separate perforated box in the tank for about 2 weeks.
Prophylactically treated in a FW-bath with Praziquantel for 25 minutes.
6. If you are using a copper based medication, which one? How often do
you measure level? When?
See below.
7. If you are using hyposalinity, how did you calibrate your
refractometer?-
8. Please describe in detail, the appearance of the fish? If there is
one or more pimples, are they lumpy? What color?
Fish looks ok, but an experienced keeper could see there was 'something'
wrong when the fish was still in the display tank. It has had a few
spots earlier, but nothing serious. The amount of spots seems to have
increased a bit, but, even worse: the fish quit eating last week so it
was moved to a hospital tank on Jan. 4th. I have attached two pictures
of the fish, the one from the front shows the skin's condition best.
That picture is not completely clear, but especially on the black areas
of the fish, the spots are visible quite well.
9. Please describe the behavior of the fish as best you can. Is it
acting reclusive? Is it always up towards the top of the aquarium? Is it
avoiding light? How active is the fish?
When still in the display tank, the fish used to be very active and ate
nearly anything from between my fingers. Last week the fish quit eating
and I did not get it to eat, I tried lots of food without any luck. When
the fish quit eating, it went to the cleaner goby and cleaner shrimp
more often and was less often swimming in the visible area of the
aquarium.
10. Is the fish eating? What?
No, see above. There are some live Mysid shrimp, some bigger (but small
enough for him) other shrimp and a clip of seaweed (which he used to
like) but he does not touch anything.
<Return this fish to the main display... try opened shellfish, worms....
Bob Fenner>
Re: Hopefully you can help my with my sick Tinkers butterfly; now w/ pix
1/7/14
Dear Bob,
<Tanne>
Thanks for your fast reply! Wow!!
<Welcome>
I copy the text and add the pictures separately... Thanks in advance!!
:)
<I see; these are all the same as what you included past your initial
message. Which I have responded to since (between this email and your
first>
Cheers
Tanne
<.... I see some light spotting in your included images... but am
curious as to the other fish livestock... They did not, do not show
symptoms? I would STILL return the BF to the main display... and have
you read here:
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/reefparfaq2.htm
and the linked files above; for background and to formulate a plan for
fighting the loss of appetite, whatever possible protozoan issue this
might be... in the entire system. We'll chat after your reading. BobF>
My tinker's butterfly is ill..... <the rest a copy of the above>
|
|
Best treatment available for scratching Chelmon rostratus
11/17/13
Hi Crew, from the UK.
<Hail from Chicago, US>
Sincerely hope to find you all healthy and in good spirits.
<Thank you>
Just a quickie really (if you'll excuse the term). You guys have
helped me so much in the last ten or so years, I will forever be
indebted to you.
One of these days I will send you a bottle of Scottish nectar,
(Single Malt) Just let me know where to send it?
<Ooooh; have given up on alcohol, but I thank you for your offer>
Anyway, my question. I've read on WWM about a treatment, a "later
greater technology" for Amyloodinium based on Quinine,
'Chloroquine Phosphate'. Is this a product which one can purchase over
the counter?
<I don't know re the UK; but can be purchased online in the US>
& if it is, what brand name/s might it go under?
<There's a list on WWM:
http://wetwebmedia.com/QuinSourceF.htm
I haven't had cause to treat any fish since I started quarantining
absolutely everything/anything that went into my main display.
That was about 20 years ago. Now I have a problem. I have been
'given' three fish, one Chaetodon Bennetti (Bennett's Butterfly), one
Threadfin Butterfly (Chaetodon auriga) and one Chelmon rostratus
(Copperband butterfly) all are youngsters and between one and a half and
two inches long. I had to rather hastily get a QT up & running, all I
had was a 20 gallon tank on which I put my D-D fluidised sand bed filter
from my main tank and my D-D fluidised bed with one litre of (fresh)
Rowacarbon in it.
These are well over capacity (see link below) for a 20 gallon QT I
know, but it's all I had. They are the type shown on eBay below.
(and no, I am not on a commission!)
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/like/271165553945?hlpht=true&ops=true&viphx=1&lpid
=95&device=c&adtype=pla&crdt=0&ff3=1&ff11=ICEP3.0.0&ff12=67&ff13=80&ff14=95&ff19=0
You're probably well ahead of me here. The fish all look fine
with no abrasions or dustings with salt nor fine pepper but the
copperband is scratching/flicking just the one side above the gills on
the two pieces of live rock I put in the QT from my main display. Would
I be overdoing it, do you think by putting a UV sterilizer on the QT
tank?
<Not overdoing it. I would put this device on if I had it>
It would be a big one again for about a 200 litre tank. I have an
ozoniser but am not sure how best to filter the residual ozone without a
skimmer.
<Activated carbon>
I'm sorry guys, this wasn't such a quickie after all. I do always search
your great site, there is always something to learn but on this occasion
I need some advice.
Keep up the good work. I'm damned sure you have helped our reefs around
the world more than any government have ever done.
With sincere thanks
Simon.
<Cheers, Bob Fenner>
True Falcula Butterfly with Ich
3/19/12
Hello Crew! <Hello Jeff, Bobby here this evening> Love the site!
Thanks Bob for putting together this great place and thanks to all the
contributors as well. I have a True Falcula and Saddleback
(Chaetodon ephippium) butterfly in a 29 gallon QT at the moment.
<Kudos to you for using a QT!!> For the first 4 days they
were doing well and eating. On day five there was an Ich breakout
with the Falcula covered in white spots and the saddleback with a few
on its tail. I started dosing with CopperSafe <I am not a big
fan of this product for the reasons you list below, it is a fairly
'harsh' form of Copper. I would advocate Cupramine
instead. Please note that you would need either a Seachem or
Salifert Copper test to read this product accurately.> keeping
levels at 1.5 - 2.0 ppm as per the directions (Chelated copper needing
higher ppms then normally recommended max of 0.3 I'm guessing).
<Please confirm that you are using a test kit to confirm
readings> Due to the ammonia levels getting up to 0.3 I am doing 50%
water changes every day. <Do you not have an established Bio Filter
in the QT? A way of establishing one?> On day 3 of using
copper the Falcula started breathing rapidly and stopped being
interested in food. The saddleback seems to be doing fine and
eating. I am now on day 6 of using copper and Falcula is still
breathing rapidly and not eating, but all the spots have dropped off
(he shows no other signs of distress, is still swimming around).
What would be your recommendation on the Falcula? Try to make it
through the full QT period? Thanks in advance for the
information! <At this point I would suggest removing the
copper via water changes and/or Carbon. Get the fish settled and
eating again. While you are getting them eating again, consider
FW dips, http://wetwebmedia.com/dips_baths.htm , if you observe any
immediate issues. Once the fish is eating, a biological filter is
established, and all seems in order, you can proceed with the Copper
treatment using the product I mentioned above. Lots of other
information here as well surrounding diseases and QT
procedures/treatments.
http://wetwebmedia.com/mardisindex.htm
, please review.>
Jeff <Bobby>
Re: True Falcula Butterfly with Ich 3/19/12
Bobby,
Thanks for your prompt reply. Regarding your questions
below: I am using an Aquarium Pharmaceuticals test kit for copper
to confirm copper dosage.
As for the bio filter, I had a sponge filter that was seeded from my DT
along with a piece of live rock from the DT in the QT but took these
out when I started dosing copper due to my thoughts that the copper
would probably kill all the beneficial bacteria anyway.<Copper will
not kill the bacteria. That being said, the live rock will absorb
the copper removing it from the water column. The Sponge filter
can, and should, remain in the QT> I know I needed to take the
LR out, but should I have left the sponge filter in? <See
above> When I took these out I put both of them in a bucket
that I'm circulating SW water in (didn't want to put them back
in the display tank since they were probably also infected with
Ich). Last night I followed your advice and did a 50% water
change with no copper.
After the change I put the sponge filter back in the QT and am running
carbon in a HOB filter. I will continue with the 50% changes over
the next few days with no copper (good thing I have two 55 gallon drums
and a 100 gpd RO/DI filter!). <Sounds good, not only will you remove
the copper but will minimize the ammonia as well> I figure I better
wait until all the copper is gone before putting the LR back in. <No
need unless you think the fish need to graze on it or it will help
establish the bio filter> I also ordered some Cupramine and
the corresponding Seachem copper test kit.
<Sounds good. When you do use the Cupramine, administer the
full dosage over the course of 4-5 days and watch the reaction of the
fish> I will continue to follow your advice and see if I can get him
eating again before adding Cupramine. Any other advice or
comments would be greatly appreciated! <Good progress so far, just
focus on getting him
eating>Jeff<Bobby>
Healthy Fish. Genicanthus, Cu use
1/10/12
I have a female swallowtail angel in QT, going on two weeks now, who
exhibits no signs of crypt or any other illness.
I have tang in my display tank who is absolutely sensitive to
crypt. I recognize the possibility that the angel could make it through
quarantine without a crypt outbreak, and then "carry" it to
my display tank where my other fish would be devastated by it.
<Okay... and recognize that there may well be a resident
infestation of Crypt in the main/display tank...>
Could you weigh in on the idea of preemptively treating the QT with
Cupramine?
<Yes. Am not a fan of copper use on Angels... see my opinions, the
rationale for them posted over and over on WWM re>
In my experience angels are the worst fish for copper, but
they're also among the worst for carrying bugs without displaying
symptoms.
<I'd be using a quinine compound here... also posted...
WWM>
I do not believe tangs can coexist in a tank with crypt,
<You'd be wrong here>
and I really don't want to crash my tank with Ich. Also,
there seems to be a crackdown on quinine antimalarials. I
can't find the stuff in stock,
<See here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/QuinSourceF.htm
so at this point I really think it's copper or it's nothing at
all.
<Up to you>
Thanks in advance,
Rick
<Welcome. Bob Fenner>
Re: Flame Angel lump... now Heni... hlth.
11/23/10
Hello again folks. I have over 20 different questions per week about
the saltwater hobby and after checking the forums there are always one
or two questions that go unanswered. Therefore, I contact you and I
hope not to be a bother. I have a Heniochus in qt now for about one
week and he has been scratching his gills since the day I purchased
him. I waited it out to see if any spots showed up to determine whether
or not to treat him with quinine. No spots showed so I narrowed it down
to a fluke or fish lice.
<Might be "nothing"... just stress, chemical/physical
"burn" from transport>
I went ahead and used the least harmful Med (Prazi-pro) and the day
after one of his gills were completely shut and the other moving
rapidly. Is this from the Med or is it the start of Ich/protozoa?
<Likely the former>
Thanks so Much everyone and Happy Thanksgiving !
<And you! Bob Fenner>
Re: re: Flame Angel lump... more? Re Heni, Crypt
11/24/10
Thanks for your help again. I do have another qt tank with a pb tang
(japonicus)
<...?>
and a flame angel that came down with Ich.
<All who are exposed need to be treated>
I am following the directions to the letter on the qs
<?>
container and was wondering if on the last day of treatment the fish
are free of spots and symptoms, shall I just put them back in the
display or shall I wait another week to see if anymore parasites show
up?
<... read here: http://wetwebmedia.com/ichartmar.htm
and the linked files above, till you're satisfied that you know
what you're up to here>
Last time I used qs, it killed my small Heniochus. He lost color,
stopped eating and became very lethargic and died. Wish me luck....I am
concerned. Thanks again.
<Best of luck... BobF>
Copperband butterfly - Ich?
10/8/10
Hello,
<Hi Steve, Misty here>
I was hoping to ask you all a couple questions about a new 2.5"
Copperband butterfly (Chelmon rostratus). I bought it from a
respectable LFS about 4 weeks ago, and asked to see it eat before I
took it. It was eating well on frozen brine and Mysis. Once home, it
was placed in a 20gal QT (bare bottom, one piece of LR, water was from
DT) and was eating frozen just fine. I saw no signs of disease, and did
not feel there was a need to medicate or dip this fish (which I now
regret). I was worried about stressing it out, since I read it is a
sensitive and finicky butterfly. 3 weeks in QT (should have been 4) and
I moved it over to my DT.
<Good job on the QT>
My system: 90gal with 20gal sump, 130lbs LR, 120lbs LS, system has been
up for 1 year. I see tons of amphipods running around the rock at
night, I assume I have ample copepods as well. Water parameters look
good - nitrates, nitrites, phosphates, and ammonia are all 0; pH is
8.2; dKH is 8; I am using the API reefmaster and saltwater test kits,
and I also took a water sample to the LFS who got the same results.
Current residents include: 2.5" purple tang, 5" lawnmower
blenny, 3" orange ocellaris clown, 2" black ocellaris clown,
and 3" royal gramma.
I have 1 cleaner shrimp and 4 peppermint shrimp, blue leg hermits, 6
huge Nassarius snails, and a few leftover turbo snails that haven't
been captured by the hermits. As far as coral, I have a handful of
small frags (Pocillopora, Duncanopsamia, Montipora capricornis and
Montipora digitata, various Zoanthus colonies, Euphyllia parancora
and Euphyllia paradivisa) and 2 larger Turbinaria "pagoda
cups". I
also have a new 2.5" blue maxima clam (that was purchased at the
same time and place as the butterfly). I hope this is an appropriately
thorough description of my setup.
Now for the problem...
I moved the Copperband and, as expected, the purple tang was quite
aggressive. Within a few hours, it was getting better; today, after 5
days, they seem fine. Upon moving him, the butterfly stopped eating
frozen foods and began grazing my amphipod population
<seems normal...would you rather have steak or frozen
steak?>.
He also would do this funny "twitch" every once in awhile
(but no flashing... yet).
Last night, I supplemented my feeding with garlic, and all my fish
(including the Copperband) were frantically feeding on the Mysis and
brine (soaked in Selcon). I thought this was a great sign!
<Yes, it is a good sign>
However, I noticed the Copperband was flashing during this time, and
I've discovered about 4-5 white spots on one pectoral fin (looks
like Ich).
<Likely...not unexpected, even after the QT period. Moving into a
new space with fish (esp. a mean purple tang) is stressful.>
I'm assuming he has a parasitic infection for sure. My dilemma is
this: he may be difficult to catch with all of the live rock, and
I'm afraid I may stress him worse by removing him and putting him
back in a QT <Agreed...as long as he continues eating and the
torture from the purple tang subsides, I'd let him ride this
out...assuming that the Ich spots don't become absurd>.
Also, I might add that my 20g QT was dropped while being dumped outside
and broke into a million pieces... my only remaining empty tank is a 10
gallon. He's not breathing heavy, and I don't notice any
other abnormal behavior besides the flashing/twitching. I'm not
sure what to do: catch him, dip/medicate and QT again and risk
stressing him worse (this would be the second move in 5 days); or leave
him in
the tank and hope that feeding garlic and limiting stress as much as
possible may solve the problem. <Yep...have had a couple of
CBB's that have gone through this as well...and have been fine. Had
you not QT'd to start, would be more of an issue. Your cleaner
shrimp may come into play to help as well. I had one CBB with the same
issues that kept going to my peppermint shrimp for a cleaning, which
didn't work. Got him a cleaner shrimp and it was great.> I will
also add that he only flashes on one rock that has green hair algae on
it (must be soft?) and the sand bed - so he doesn't have any open
wounds that I have seen. I've also noticed that when he does flash,
he always goes back to the same place to pick at the rock or sand for
"critters"... smart and beautiful fish. (Wonderful fish once
acclimated. But they will decimate the live critters (worms, feather
dusters, pods, etc.) before resorting to your paltry frozen food
:)>. I want to do everything I can to help him out!
All other fish seem unaffected at this time.
After reading some more articles on WWM, I'm also concerned about
flatworms
<hmmm...different issue...not a species that I've heard to be
"internal">.
Do you think the Ich is probably the primary problem, or could he have
a "super infestation" with flatworms as well (because of the
twitching)? <not sure about the twitching...keep an eye on it...I
know
about the other stuff...but twitching is new!>
Thank you for any help possible, I really appreciate your time!
<Please keep us updated with any changes!>
<Cheers, Misty>
Steve
Re: Copperband butterfly - Ich?
10/8/10
Misty,<Steve,>
Thank you for your reply! <You're welcome :)> As I was
reading, I realized that I said "flatworms" and actually
meant "flukes". I've never had a fish with flukes <me
neither, actually...been lucky, I guess!> and not really sure what
to look for with it. <As I've got no experience with them
first-hand, me neither, unfortunately> As I was reading about
flukes, there was a comment about Acropora-eating-flatworms that
caught my attention and I'm afraid I mistyped! Do you think the
twitching could be indicative of a possible fluke infestation? <Not
sure, but according to this article, more common symptoms are rapid
breathing,
hiding and discoloration... http://www.wetwebmedia.com/parasiti.htm
>. He seemed to twitch and flash less this evening, but has gained a
spot or two on the same pectoral fin (and the fin is now split in one
spot).
Still no spots anywhere else that I can see, and he ate frozen Mysis
again today.
<A very good sign...I'd keep a close eye on him. Continue the
use of garlic/Selcon to help his immune system (as well as the other
tank inhabitants until the spots are gone). Ich will always be in your
system unless you allow it to go fallow for long enough to starve the
Ich.
So it would do you no good to QT him again for a couple of spots and
then put him back into a tank with Ich. Obviously, if he can't
develop a natural resistance to the parasite and gets worse, then you
will need to
remove him for treatment...and think about getting a big QT for all of
the fish to allow the tank to go fallow. In my experience with a couple
of butterflies, they have developed their own natural resistance and
were fine after about a week.>
Thanks again for your help!
<You're welcome, again...hope the CBB does well...I'm sure
he will under your care.>
<Cheers, Misty>
Steve
Multicolor Angel and Ich 09/29/10
Hello All,
I've had a small multicolor angel (not quite two inches) in
quarantine for 2 1/2 weeks. She is only picking at my rotation of food
(Mysis shrimp, bloodworms, spectrum pellets, Cyclopeeze, and a frozen
herbivore
preparation),
<Very typical>
but looking at the "kissing marks" on the decor and glass,
I'm assuming substantial nutrition is coming from the
diatoms/algae.
<And what's associated with them>
The good news here is that she is active in a normal dwarf angel way
(darting in and out of hiding, curious- but cautious when I'm
around the tank). Her eyes are clear, her belly is round and her feces
are dark green and seen on a regular basis. She has one tank mate in
quarantine, an orchid Dottyback destined for another tank.
The problem is that two days ago I saw her "scratch" twice
and then go about her business.
<Mmm>
Tonight I noticed three salt grain spots on various spots on her
fins.
(The Dottyback has no sign of infection, yet.) After 12 years in the
hobby, my gut is saying these are Ich spots, but for better or for
worse I've never had to treat an angel for Ich. After looking
through the FAQ, it sounds like there are many different opinions about
how to proceed now.
<Yes>
I am particularly concerned that the angel is dependent to a high
degree on foraging on the liverock and diatoms/algae and that chemical
use would take away this food source.
<Correct>
The quarantine tank is 25 gallons, bare bottom, with two pieces of
liverock for grazing, and some plastic hidey holes. I have two little
hang on filters and a Prizm skimmer going. I do have a second potential
quarantine tank (30 gallons) which has its own heater, but no filter or
skimmer. I have about 15 gallons of pre-made salt water on stand by.
FWIW, my display tank is a 46 gallon low light reef.
Considering the small size of this angel and dwarf angels sensitivity
to chemicals, I would appreciate any and all advice.
My thanks in advance-Tricia
<I am inclined with small Angels (of size, not necessarily species),
to especially be careful re the use of toxic medications... IF
anything, I might use Chloroquine Phosphate (one dose) on/with this
fish... but am more likely (if this were my own situation) to just do a
cursory pH-adjusted freshwater bath (likely w/o any additional chemical
presence) and place this fish in your main display. Yes, there is a
risk (always) of spreading Cryptocaryon... but there is a very good
chance that your and almost everyone's systems have resident crypt
infestations (already). Bob Fenner>
Re: Multicolor Angel and Ich 4/22/11
Mr. Fenner (and crew),
I wrote back in October 2010 about my multi-color angel and a case of
Ich.
I just wanted to let you know that six months later
all original fish are well with no obvious signs of Ich.
<Ahh! Congratulations Tricia!>
The angel did start to exhibit the beginnings of hole-in-the-head so I
began soaking the fish food in Zoe and Selcon. I also altered my light
pattern to have a longer period of reduced light intensity during the
day.
The angel's head has healed, but the blue is not as intense as it
was when he arrived last October (OTOH, his yellow coloring is
brighter). Behavior wise, the wrasse, angel, and goby have no issues.
The wrasse occasionally "spooks" the firefish and the angel
occasionally reminds the firefish the she is the boss, but there are no
frayed fins or hiding behavior.
Although I understand that the Ich is probably a permanent resident in
my tank, all residents seem healthy and happy.
Thank you again for all of your advice-Tricia
<Thank you for your report/update. Cheers,
BobF>
Cupramine question 9/28/10
Hey Crew,
Simple question : What duration of time is adequate for Cupramine
therapy for the treatment of marine crypt?
<... usually a week or less... Read here:
http://www.seachem.com/Products/product_pages/Cupramine.html>
I have a masked butterfly
<See WWM re: http://wetwebmedia.com/cryptasbfs.htm
that I had in QT that came down with marine crypt. Has been eating
thawed Mysis shrimp/ brine shrimp / plankton in QT treated with
Cupramine.
<... the food, treated with chelated copper?>
I have seen minimum of 14 days max of 28 days as
"recommendations."
Treatment level is .4- .5 ppm using Salifert kit to test.
Thanks
Jimmy
<Keep reading. Bob Fenner>
Re: Cupramine question 9/28/10
Bob,
Thanks for the response...so you are joking that a week of Cupramine is
adequate for treatment of marine crypt?
<Not joking Jimmy... longer than this is usually deadly for
Chaetodontids... Butterflyfishes>
The link you provide states 14 days and others have recommended 28
days.
The QT is treated with Cupramine and not the food. Just trying to
clarify Seachem's recommendation of 14 days of therapy and others
recommend
21-28 days.
Thanks
Jimmy
<Try it and see... In these times, I wouldn't expose BF's to
Copper period... See WWM re the use of Quinine Compounds.
B>
Sorry another Ich question 7/31/10
Hi there crew, Jordan here. I know there a thousands of posts
regarding ich and I have read through a lot of them. I am in a
bit of a predicament I believe. I have the following fish in my
tank which is 125g with sump,
total volume of 150g.
2 x Occ. Clowns
7 x blue Chromis
1 x B/F Longnose
<W/ Crypt>
That is it so far as I was just beginning to stock my tank after
about 6 months of it running.
So my concern is that my B/F appears to have marine ich as far as
I can tell.
<Appears to be>
Pectoral fins and tail fins have the appearance of tiny white
spots.
I am unable to see any spots elsewhere on his body however. He is
eating fine and not really scratching or anything at this time. I
understand that my whole tank is now infected if it is truly
ich.
<Actually infested is the term... infections refer to microbes
like bacteria, fungi... infestations to "higher"
pathogens>
I am prepared to QT all the fish for 6 weeks or so and let the
tank run fallow. My problem is that my QT is only a 10g so it
might be a little too small
<Is for the Forcipiger for sure>
although all my fish are juveniles B/F the largest at about
2.5"
<Mmm, a shame... specimens this small should be left in the
sea... they rarely "survive">
all the rest about 1.5" The other problem is that I will be
away for a week the third week of August and will have no one
here to do regular water changes and monitor meds etc. I would
not feel comfortable leaving this with a friend. Will it be
pointless to start the QT today and only do it for 3 weeks?
<I do think so... and would not move, isolate the fishes given
this data>
Or should I just do my best to feed and do larger water changes
from now till vacation and hope that the ich problem doesn't
get really bad?
<Is one approach, though I must/would state that
historically... "the odds are against you"... I might
well go ahead and try a Quinine cpd. in place>
I'm at a loss here. Would dipping the B/F in a fresh water
formalin dip or something else help him for the short term until
I get back?
<No... just more stress, increased likelihood of passing w/
next reinfestation>
I don't want to take too drastic measures just yet but I fear
the problem will get worse obviously. Any help or thoughts would
be greatly appreciated. I'll send the best picture I can to
see if in your great wisdom you think it is indeed ich I am
dealing with.
Thank you very much.
Jordan
<Read here: http://wetwebmedia.com/QuinSciUseF.htm
and the linked files above... till you're satisfied you
understand your options. BobF>
|
|
BF dis., Quinine use f'
2/23/2010
Hey Crew.....
I value you each and every one of your opinions but I would like
Bob's advice on this one if at all possible. I just recently
upgraded from a 10g QT to a 20g long QT. I have a small 2.5 inch
Heniochus and a 3" Raccoon
(Chaetodon Lunula).
<I do want to (re)state for browsers, that I'd look for larger
(but not too large) specimens of Chaetodontids to start>
I have treated my Heni for ten days with Quinine Sulfate. Then added
the Raccoon after the full ten day treatment and a few additional days
(for a total of about two weeks later). Bodies and fins are clear of
spots and there are no visible symptoms of a parasite (rapid breathing,
flashing, etc.). My concern here is that my Heniochus has a very slight
cloudy glaze over his eyes and fins.
<Likely "just stress" from the treatment... i.e., not
parasitic>
I do want to say that even when he had velvet from the start his fins
were never cloudy like this. After two weeks of being treated with QS
he has developed this (without any spots or symptoms). Is this
normal?
<Yes>
Shall I treat with something else? Or will this go away eventually?
<No and yes>
I have called National Fish Pharm. and when I spoke with the Doctor, he
said it could be from the treatment of QS.
<Yes; this is so>
There isn't much info regarding this med in your forums or at all
on the WWW. Bob, what do you think, I would like your opinion?
Thanks so much
<Welcome. BobF>
Blue Ring Copper Toxic Levels,
Pomacanthus hlth. - 06/05/09
Hi there,
<Thai>
I've been treating my blue ring angel for white spot and he seems
to be rid of the whitespot.
However he has developed a cloudy eye and it seems pretty severe. He
twitched a lot as well and am assuming this is due to long exposure of
copper.
<Could well be>
Am planning on doing massive water changes on the weekend and adding a
copper removing filter.
Am wondering if the cloudy eye will heal itself with good water quality
and also if there is such a point of no return for the eye.
<Likely will cure itself over time, good water quality,
nutrition>
Thanks in advance
Thai Pham
<Welcome. Bob Fenner>
ICH Problem 5/24/09
Hi there,
< Hi >
My blue ring angel has been showing first signs of ICH.
< Insert scary music here >
Though it's minor and the spots disappear in the morning, was
wondering if I maintain good water quality the ICH will rid itself.
< I would start with treatments immediately. >
I've got a 375 gallon tank with the 6-7 inch blue ring and 15 Green
Chromis. Also have 220 pounds of live rock. Have got copper treatments
and anti Protozoal
< I would stick with the copper treatment >
or whatever it's called on standby. Would rather not treat and if
it can rid itself, how can I help it.
< I would remove all fish to a hospital tank for treatments. As well
as letting the display run fallow. Treatments should be a combination
of copper and environmental adjustments. There is tons of info of Wet
Web concerning treatment. Read:
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ichartmar.htm
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ichart2mar.htm
As well as the pages of FAQ's GA Jenkins >
Thanks
Treatment Options for Juvenile Emperor with Ich
03/22/09
Hello WWM Crew,
<Scott>
Thanks you for your outstanding website. With the help in no
small part of your collective advice, I have managed to develop a
135 gallon SPS system which is thriving in a way I could not have
imagined when I began this venture about two and a half years
ago.
<Ahh, congratulations>
If nothing else, I hope this message is a testimonial to other
readers about the value of the quarantine tank.
<Ohh>
I also hope that get some of your experienced advice in
connection with a juvenile emperor angelfish that I acquired last
week. He is a bit small (about 1-1/4 inch nose to tail) but
exceptionally energetic and curious. He also demonstrated a very
good appetite at the LFS store. I purchased him and introduced
him to his temporary home; a 20 gallon OT with "mature"
sponge filter, heater and a couple of power heads.
Unfortunately, after a day or two in quarantine, he started
showing signs of Ich. Referring to the attached photo, you will
likely see the tell-tale spot on his pectoral fin, as well as a
couple tiny spots on his caudal and anal fin.
<I see this>
My first response was to begin to lower the salinity of the tank
and monitor the progression of the parasite and host (i.e see if
the fish can fight off the Ich with its own natural defenses as
he continues to gain strength in QT). I am also wiping down the
floor/walls of the QT and replacing about four gallons of make-up
water (taking "diluted" water from the main display) on
a daily basis.
<Good>
The salinity is now down to 22 ppt
<Mmm, needs to be quite lower for hyposalinity to be of use
here>
and emperor is showing no signs of distress and maintains his
voracious appetite. But there is also no evidence of any
significant reduction at the affected areas.
<Also good>
I have done lots of research on the subject of Ich and believe
that early and decisive action is very important, so I am
presently considering two treatment options. The first is to
continue the water change and hypo salinity regimen (taking
salinity down to 15-16 ppt for the prescribed duration). Assuming
I can get to the point where there are no longer any visible
spots attached fish, I would do a 100% water change (again, using
diluted water from the main display) and completely wash down the
interior of the QT.
The second option would be treatment with SeaChem Cupramine, but
given the "tender age" of this juvenile emperor, I am
concerned about the toxicity affects over the (hopefully long)
lifetime of this particular fish.
I realize that it is up to the individual aquarist to take
responsibility and implement the appropriate treatment option,
but I would very much appreciate hearing the thoughts of folks
with your collective experience.
Would you follow one (or both) of the treatments outlined above,
or possibly something else altogether?
<Due to the factors you mention, I would go with the first
option>
Thanks in advance.
Scott
<Welcome. Bob Fenner> |
|
Re: Treatment Options for Juvenile Emperor with Ich
5-22-09
Dear Mr. Fenner (or to the WWM Crew Member responding to this
email),
<Mike Maddox here tonight>
For your reference, I am re-sending a message I sent back on
March 21st, in which I requested your advice on treatment options
for a juvenile Emperor that appeared to have Ich. Bob Fenner
responded that he concurred with the proposed treatment as
outlined (thank you for your advice).
I proceeded with the hyposalinity treatment, lowering these
salinity about 1 ppt per day until I reached 15ppt. The pH has
been maintained at roughly 8.3 using Seachem Marine Buffer.
Salinity was kept in the range of 14- 15 ppt and after about a
week the spot on the caudal fin disappeared. The spot on the anal
fin was gone a few days later and after about two weeks (total)
the spot (really more of a small lump) rather suddenly "fell
off" the pectoral fin.
Thinking I had the Ich "on the run" I immediately did a
100% water change in the QT (using diluted make-up water from the
display) and thoroughly cleaned the interior of the QT. This
actually had a detrimental impact on the fish which I still
don't quite understand (the water became cloudy and the
Emperor lost his appetite and was quite lethargic and incurious
for several days).
<Sounds like an adverse reaction/precipitation...always use
freshly mixed and aerated saltwater as a replacement>
I kept the water quality as high as possible through frequent
water changes and the fish did recover his appetite and his
former behavior after about a week.
<Good>
I continued the hyposalinity levels with the goal of going at
least 2-3 weeks with no visible spots before slowing increasing
salinity back to normal levels. Here is where things seem to have
taken a turn for the worse. Over the ensuing weeks, The emperor
continues a cycle of having spots (again really more like small
lumps) recurring on the same pectoral fin as initially infected.
No spots are ever observed anywhere else on the fish and no
"scratching" is ever observed. The fish continues to
grow, exhibit a good appetite (albeit not quite as robust as seen
before) and is still very inquisitive and "social".
<Time to make certain it is receiving sponge material...I
believe Ocean Nutrition's angel formula has sponge in
it>
Within the past week or so, I have also noticed small
discolorations or lesions on the face and body of the fish which
is beyond my ability / experience to identify. These (and the
pectoral lumps, which are especially bad in these shots) can be
seen in the attached photographs.
<Tough to tell from the pictures...do they come and go, or are
they more permanent?>
I believe corrective action is needed here but I don't quite
know how to proceed. Based on your knowledge and experience, do
you think I am still dealing with crypt and need to adjust my
treatment (say administer copper or formalin)
<There are superior treatments...in my opinion there is hardly
(if ever) a reason to use copper>
or could I be dealing with something altogether different?
<Definitely a possibility>
Assuming a different treatment is warranted, would you first
raise salinity prior to the other treatment?
<No. I recommend a full course of treatment with quinine
sulfate, available from www.nationalfishpharm.com, and see how
things are after that. Also ensure the fish receives plenty of
plant material in its diet, as well as sponge matter>
Again, I want to express my sincere thanks for the work you folks
do to help novices such as the undersigned.
<We've all been there, and we all continue to feel like
novices at some point or another! The help is gladly
given>
Scott
<Let me know if the quinine treatment doesn't work...Mike
Maddox>
|
Clownfish/Hammer Coral and multicolor
angel questions 12/30/08 Hello and Happy Holidays
- Thank you for your website, knowledge, and assistance! I read, read,
read and then can still not believe that I missed an important piece of
information or still don't understand something. I guess that's
why this is a good hobby for me. Never boring. Always something new.
<Agreed> I have been in the hobby 5-6 years and recently revived
my saltwater tank after a home remodel - tank ran with a heater, rock,
and sand for almost a year. Now I have been re-stocking and re-learning
for a few months. My 100 gal tank (black sand, lots of live rock, 30
gal sump, ASM skimmer, very small and young HOB CPR refugium) has good
water parameters (SG 1.025, T 79, Amm/Nitrite/Nitrate all zero, PH
8.1-8.2). My two primary questions: 1. I have 2 black clowns (with
orange faces) that are in the process of pairing up. Overall, they seem
to have settled down, but I still see them nipping at each other now
and again. They have elected to host in my Hammer Coral. The Hammer
seems quite tolerant of this and looks actually very well. They have
been living in this coral constantly for the past 3-4 weeks, took to
the coral about a week after it was introduced to the tank. Days 1-3
very happy and in the hammer coral most of the time Day 4 fluffy cotton
hanging from both fish Day 5 or 6 cotton resolved Days 6-8 very happy
Day 9 Small slits in fins on both fish Day 12 or 13 slits healed
entirely Days 13-15 very happy Approx Day 16 both clowns had more
severe reactions to the coral. The smaller could not close his mouth.
The larger developed a very swollen and puffy-looking face. Small clown
moved away from the coral and resided in another area of the tank. Day
18 Smaller clown can close his mouth but has a very puffy face. He has
a split lip with red around it. Extra vitamins given in his food. Day
23 or 24 lip heals but face still quite puffy and clown moves back into
coral Days 25-27 very happy (in coral constantly, nip at each other
occasionally, eating well) Day 28 Split caudal fin with cotton on the
smaller clown, face more puffy (1/2 is paralyzed?), moves away from
hammer again. Still eating well. Larger clown face still puffy (maybe a
little less?), living in coral always, eating well. (Is this too much
detail? Sorry if so). <Not too much... good to have complete
picture> My thought has been "Hopefully this will sort itself
out", <And it generally does... Percula/Ocellaris clowns do
establish relations with Euphyllias in captivity... often course
through the sort of process you relate so well here> since they are
eating well and the smaller seems to be managing his illness to some
degree on his own. The swollen faces have been for more than 10 days
now. They look very much "allergic" and not infectious. I
would like to continue to watch it and hope eventually that this will
resolve on its own. Is there a time limit for how long I should allow
this to go on? <Mmm, no, not really... Till the two species either
"agree" or not to associate> Also - the day of the open
mouth and swollen faces was the same day my peppermint shrimp was
picking on that coral and pulling on its polyps. Would the hammer have
been potentially more toxic that day? <Interesting to
speculate...> (I have since removed the pep). 2. My multicolor angel
(in quarantine day 11) developed 3 white spots (2 on the caudal fin,
one on a pectoral fin). These remained for 36 hours and then vanished.
Debating on what to do, I coincidentally broke a heater in the tank and
had to remove him in order to clear the tank of glass. Therefore, I
cleaned out the quarantine tank and have placed entirely new water in
the tank. The angel is in a smaller 4 gal holding tank waiting for the
water to fully heat and aerate. (I didn't have quite enough water
ready for the whole tank). This angel is extremely skittish, <A sign
of good health> and I question whether or not he would tolerate a FW
dip as he attempts to jump out of the tank upon any slight stressor,
although he really looks well otherwise. (During acclimation, he tried
to jump out several times, even with a lid on - also tried to jump out
when I had to net him to remove from the QT and clean the class out.) I
am on the fence of "Oh no I need to do something" and
"Let's see what happens" due to my lack of experience
overall. <I would, do default to the latter... non-action in cases
of doubt> Trying the minimal approach when possible. Do you have any
tips for doing a FW dip in a skittish fish, or would you just skip it
altogether? <As you hint at, to be in constant attendance, make sure
the dip container is covered...> When I dipped my coral beauty angel
a number of weeks ago (since then I killed her with copper despite my
attempts at careful dosing, thus my aversion to any intervention
unnecessary) I was amazed at the things I saw coming out of her and
falling off of her (flukes and such), so I do think FW dips can be
helpful. Sorry for the long descriptions. Thank you for your
assistance. Lynn M <Thank you for writing so well; completely and
clearly... There are some "extra" ideas, methods that might
be added to my long-stated dip/bath protocol. For instance, the use of
practical anesthetics (akin to "doggy downers" for canines
that need to have their nails trimmed let's say)...
"Hypno" by Jungle Labs is "over the counter", and
there are other materials that might be profitably employed... Bob
Fenner>
Flame angel and possible ich
treatment 12/13/08 Dear Crew, <Carolyn> Once again
I feel I need your wisdom..! Think I've found the answer on the
site but want to confirm that I'm thinking along the right lines...
<Okay> I introduced a new flame angel to my 600l system two days
ago, he was suitably disease free for the weeks prior to addition to
the display and was given a preventative bath prior to addition.
Immediately, my Lamarck's female went for him and hassled him for
about 4 hours non stop. This chasing rapidly ended due to a bit of
careful reworking of the rocks, so they were all too busy exploring to
bother about the new arrival. This afternoon he seems to have a few
white spots on him, notably on his fins and one side. He's feeding
well, is swimming and behaving normally and isn't scratching or
visiting the cleaning stations around the tank. Am I right in thinking
that it is worth leaving him where he is but keeping a close eye on the
situation? <This is what I would do, yes> The QT is cleaned and
ready to use again should it be necessary but I get the impression from
reading that the stress may cause him to succumb fully? <Is
possible... and more likely with moving> Obviously it would be my
worse nightmare for an outbreak of ich to spread round the tank, but I
want to do what's best for all the animals. Knowing that angels
don't take well to extended copper treatment, I've also got
some formalin on hand incase needed. The other fish in the tank are: 3
carberryi anthias 1 mandarin 1 Copperband 1 female Lamarck angel
(juvenile) 2 Firefish/fire gobies 2 false Perc clowns 1 Randall's
shrimp goby/shrimp pair Water parameters: ammonia/nitrite 0ppm nitrate
<5ppm phosphate no detectable calcium 450ppm dKH 12 pH approx. 8
Once again, many thanks in advance for any advice you can give. Carolyn
<Let's see if this animal's immune system kicks in
sufficiently... Bob Fenner>
Copper Treatment For Butterflies/Dwarf
Angelfish 12/11/08 Hi Crew? <James today, Mark> Quick
question (I hope!) I have had Heniochus Butterfly and a Coral Beauty in
my QT since purchase 10 days ago. I performed a FW and Methylene blue
dip prior to placing in tank Each fish has a small white spot on a fin
and I am observing closely for parasite infestation. I have read on
your site that the dwarf angels to not do well with copper treatment.
Is this an absolute contraindication or a relative contraindication. I
have Cupramine at home and am ready to pull the trigger or should I be
going a different direction? <Mark, if it were me, I'd keep a
close eye on the spots. Your Heniochus and Coral Beauty are more
sensitive to copper than most other marine fish. Treating with copper
would be the last resort (personal opinion) as it does suppress the
immune function and is highly stressful to fish. Hyposalinity might be
a better choice for you right now. I have used Cupramine in the past
and in my experience it has been more effective and tolerated much
better than other forms of copper. I believe Seachem recommends a 5ppm
dose, but I wouldn't go this high for these fish. In the past,
I've treated dwarf angels with a 4ppm dose and it proved to be
effective. You must test twice daily and maintain the 4ppm to be
effective, and test with a test kit that will correctly measure the
type of copper you are using.> THANKS SO MUCH! <You're
welcome. James (Salty Dog)>
Flame angel with ich, 8/27/08
Hi, I recently purchased a flame angel. <Hello> Within a few days
of being in my quarantine tank he started developing white spots on his
fins. <Glad you QTed I bet.> I read that angels are sensitive to
copper so I decided to try hyposalinity. <Not as sensitive as some
others, chelated copper is often tolerated and effective. otherwise I
might try quinine here.> I have had the salinity at 1.012 for four
days and been giving him daily freshwater dips for 5-8 minutes.
<This is not low enough, 1.009 is where you need to be, and you need
to be accurate, use a refractometer.> After the first dips the ich
seemed to disappear only to come back with a vengeance two days later.
<Typical of the Ich parasite.> He now has many white spots on his
body as well as his fins. He is still eating well, doesn't scratch
against anything, but he does seem irritated and a little jumpy.
<Probably uncomfortable.> Should I start treating with copper and
slowly raise the salinity? <I would, but make sure to use chelated
copper.> I worry about waiting too long before trying something else
because the last fish I had that got the ich died because I started
treating him with copper a day after he stopped eating. <Quick
action does help, but so does a good plan. Daily water changes and
siphoning of the bottom of the tank will help reduce the number of
parasites until a proper copper treatment can begin.> The ich went
away but he never ate again. I also worry that if the hyposalinity
starts working it won't completely kill off the ich and the angel
will carry it to my main tank. Thanks, Brendon <If done correctly
hypo should work, but it is more difficult than it seems due to the
small window of effectiveness, too low and the fish suffers, too high
and the ich keeps on going. I would use a chelated copper here.>
<Chris>
Ich?, Marine Angels 7/29/08 I have a
question for the WWM Crew. <Fire away.> I bought a flame
angelfish as well as a lawnmower blenny about a month ago. They were
both perfectly fine and I acclimated them to my 75 gallon tank.
<QTed?> They have been doing very well eating all the algae in my
tank and swimming happily. The only thing is that I noticed that the
angel had gotten a few white spots which I thought was Ich. I was going
to treat him the next day but when I looked at him the spots were gone.
<But not the infestation of the tank if it is ich.
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ichartmar.htm .> The spots have been
coming and going the whole time I have had the fish now. I did a water
change on the tank today and when I came home from work several hours
later the white spots are worse than ever. I didn't know if maybe
it could be air bubbles from turning on our filter or if it really
could be Ich. Any help would really be appreciated. Thank you. <Hard
to say without a picture, due to Ich's lifecycle it too can come
and go in appearance. Take a look in our marine disease section and
compare the pictures to what your fish is showing.
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/mardisindex.htm .>
<Chris>
Angelfish, Crypt, etiology... reading 07/08/08 Hi to
all. I have am having a problem with my juvenile emperor angel
and to a lesser degree my yellow wrasse which I have had for 9
days. Both fish are in qt. and seemed fine before I went on a 4
day vacation. When I returned my angel was very discolored and
covered in white spots (ich) I believe. (day 1) I dipped both
fish in fresh water and Methylene blue for 10 minutes and but
them back in qt. <... Back into the infested system?> over
night.(day2) The wrasse looked fine the next morning but my angel
was looking worse and becoming lethargic so I dipped both fish
again in saltwater from my main aquarium and dosed with 2
teaspoons of formalin3 in 1 gallon of water for 40 minutes and
then returned them back to qt.(day3) <... tell me, not back to
the infested system> Angel's color is returning and is
feeding very well his tail has become ragged I suspect from the
formalin3, no more spots or specks of white. My question is, I
have not treated my qt. with any medications and I don't know
if I should, I have stressed these guys out enough. I also did a
50% water change while the fish were in qt. Do I treat with
Cupramine or just wait and see on a day to day. thanks in advance
for any advice. Mike
Re: Angel fish 07/08/08 > Thanks for the quick
response, > The answer to your question is yes I did put the
fish back in the untreated tank in a panic because I didn't
know if I should treat the tank with copper after just dipping
them in formalin3. <One approach...> > I have now
started to treat the qt. with Cupramine first dose 1ml for 48
hrs. then repeat, <... need, absolutely to get/use a chelated
copper test kit. NOT to just add> I hope this works the fish
are too nice to lose. > thanks again any more input would be
great. > Mike <... my friend... Read where you were
referred to. BobF>
|
Need an opinion on ick treatment
7/5/08 Hello, <Hi there> I need your much appreciated advise
regarding ich treatments. My tank is a 300 gallon sps setup with two
tuff stuff 140 gallon tubs connected by two 3" bulkheads;
<Nice> one currently is holding the skimmer and the other is used
as a refugium with Chaetomorpha algae. My display is over 2 years old
with a 4" layer of fine sand and about two hundred and fifty
pounds of live rock. My ammonia is undetectable; so is the nitrite. My
nitrates are about 2.5 and pH ranges from 8.2 - 8.4. Alkalinity is at
9dKH and calcium is around 450. <Very good> I always tried to
maintain salinity at 1.025, however after buying a refractometer three
days ago I realized my water was actually at 1.030; so I lowered it to
1.025 within three days. <Mmm, I would take a week or longer
here> I currently have the following fish: - 4" Majestic
angelfish - 4" Coral Beauty - 2" ocellaris clown - Two
3" black saddleback clowns - 3.5" melanurus wrasse - 3"
Lawnmower blenny - 3.5 yellow eye Kole tang - 4" Pacific Blue tang
- 4.5" Powder blue tang By now I'm pretty sure you know where
this is going. I got the powder blue about two months ago. I quarantine
it for a month without any signs of ick, so I placed it in the display.
None of my fish bothered it, he became the dominant fish right away.
About two weeks after being placed in the display, I noticed he had
what seemed to be ick. I obviously somehow introduced the parasite, so
I was wondering what could have triggered this. <Perhaps the rapid
change in SPG> Does the tank have a high Bio-load, <No> could
the high salinity I had previously mentioned started this <Yes>
or could it be the current heat wave which elevated the temperature to
84 degrees <Could be a co-factor> the one day I forgot to turn on
the cooling fans. My display temperature is always at 80 to 82 degrees.
I also had to remove a 5" blue throat trigger which the powder
blue could not stand and chased a few times a day; I wonder if that
stressed him enough. <This too> I waited a few days before taking
further and appropriate action. At this point the powder blue is full
of ick but eats well. My yellow eye which only grazes of the rocks and
the glass is now also full. <This is something else> The Pacific
blue gets the spots to a lesser degree on and off. The rest of the fish
don't show any signs, however based on your web page I know all the
fish need to be treated. <Yes...> After doing my research I need
to remove all the fish and leave the tank fallow 8-10 weeks. I need
your advise on how to properly remove the ick from the fish. My plan
was to begin with the three tangs, giving them a formalin bath as per
bottle recommendations, then placed in a 60 gallon quarantine.
<Good> My question is whether I should add Cupramine to the 60
gallon quarantine tank at .35ppm <At the highest concentration...)
for two weeks <Is one approach... you might want to try Chloroquine
phosphate... IF the infestation is not too "deep",
hyperinfective, this anti-malarial may destroy it (rather than simply
arrest the present development)> then moved to a 150 gallon holding
tank while I place the rest of the fish through the same procedure and
while the display goes fallow. However I'm scared the copper might
damaged the intestinal bacteria the tangs have, or if I might be doing
more damage to my angels. <A distinct possibility> The other plan
was to not use the copper and give the fish a formalin bath every other
day for two weeks, then skip the 60 gallon with copper and place them
into the 150 with newly mixed water. <Another approach... but likely
more harmful than chelated copper exposure at the lower effective range
(.0.15 ppm free Cu++)> My last idea was just one Formalin bath then
placed in the 150 for observation. I believe I read many are not big
fans of Formalin, as it is toxic, however I figured the copper might do
more damage but I could be wrong. <Is very toxic... but effective
for "surface" complaints> Please help me figure out which
would be my best option. Also how would you recommend keeping the
ammonia and nitrite down on either the 60 or 150 spare tanks with new
saltwater. <Changing it...> Is Amquel or any ammonia sponge good
or are water changes the only option. <Mmm, the latter may be worth
trying... most water conditioners remove copper...> The sponges I
had for biological filters in the sump most likely have ick so I
don't want to introduce it to the quarantine. Thanks and keep up
the good work. <I empathize with your situation... Would try the
Chloroquine on the Tangs, Angels... and see if this does the job, along
with the one-time/moving formalin/aerated bath. Bob
Fenner>
Another ich question... perhaps
04/14/2008 Hi Crew, I know you don't get tired of
these... an ich question. On Friday I picked up a latticed
butterfly and put it in a QT. All appeared to be fine. Saturday
it had 3 spots on its tail fin... and I know it's ich.
<... maybe> Since researching WWM I know they are sensitive
to chelated copper. I did do a fw dip with meth. blue for 4
min... fish was extremely stressed. I had Cupramine on hand but
didn't have a Seachem test kit. I found one in town, went and
got it. Came back and dosed as directed. Tested the tank and got
no results. According to the FAQs on WWM this is not too
uncommon. Here's the problem. I have no way of testing this
copper within the 48 hours as recommended... any suggestions on
another way to test? Also fish seems a little stressed, would it
be prudent to filter the copper out and try another method,
formalin dips or 50% water changes every other day for 2 weeks,
to combat this? Thank you Jennifer <I would hold off on
treatment period... this may well not be Ich/Cryptocaryon... are
the spots located directly over the fin rays? Possibly these are
just reaction sites from rough netting... A well-resolved picture
would help... Bob Fenner>
Re: Another ich question... -
04/14/08 Hi Bob, Update: Sunday I did a 50% water change
(using main tank water) and am currently using a PolyFilter to
get the copper out. I would have sent pics but they are too small
to see in the pic, not to mention the little bugger wouldn't
sit still. 1 of the 3 spots is gone. The spots are not on the fin
rays they are on the very edge of the fin. <Both telling...
this is not Cryptocaryon> At what point do you think I'll
know for sure it's ich and what would be your recommendation
for treatment given that latticed butterflyfish are copper
sensitive? <... posted... In general, best to use quinine.>
Is Cupramine ok for this fish? <IF it had something for which
Copper is useful to treat...> I have researched this disease
to death so I am quite familiar with its' lifecycle and the
treatments. I just don't think this fish was doing well with
the Cupramine, stationary in the corner, heavy breathing. Since
the water change moving around more and normal respiration.
<Thank goodness> And FYI on the SeaChem test results..
according to SeaChem if there is a lot # on the powder reagent
then that is the problem. <?!> They have revamped their
test kits. Thank you Bob Jennifer <And you Jen. BobF>
Re: Another ich question... -
04/15/08 Dear Bob and I say dear because if you don't
think this is ich I'll sing your praises even more than I
already do!! In all of the research that I have done I have yet
to see that the spots needed to be on the fin rays but it does
make sense. The 2 remaining spots are gone. She hasn't
scratched that I've seen but I try to stay out of the room to
keep her stress level down. <Good point, practice> I shall
continue with water changes to keep up water quality. She
hasn't eaten since I brought her home but seems interested in
picking at tank wall and floor. <What they do> I've put
mysis shrimp in the clam shell as suggested on WWM but nothing.
I'll try other tricks. <Fresh/er live rock...> Thank
you again Bob for all of your great advice!! Jen <Welcome!
BobF>
Re: Another ich question... 4/15/08 I
wrestled with the live rock idea because if it was ich meds would
kill...well you know the rest. However, she did eat some shrimp.
By the way I did see those 2 spots after all on her tail (had to
press my face against the glass), which now makes 48 hours.
Thanks again, Bob! Jennifer <Jen, can you send a
well-resolved, close-up pic? BobF>
Re: Another ich question...
4/16/08 Bob, I don't know "well resolved"
these photos are but it's the best I could get. It was
stressing her out. The spots have gotten a little bigger. You
can see them at the very edge of her tail. I did another 50%
water change siphoning the bottom. Just out of curiosity if
quinine is so effective and is safe for sharks why isn't
it the cure most recommended overall? Thanks Bob. Jennifer
<Mmm... this is almost certainly NOT Cryptocaryon... on
the basis of placement, size, and the lack elsewhere on the
body. What it is... likely... is Lymphocystis... a
viral-environmental-stress complaint. NOT treatable by
"medicines" per se, but ameliorated via
environmental improvement, enhanced nutrition,
alleviating/lowering stress overall. Do know that this
species of Butterfly is NOT easily kept in captivity... Bob
Fenner> |
|
Re: Another ich question... 4/16/08 Bob, That
is great news!!! I've dealt with Lympho before.. you
actually helped me through it with my coral beauty.
He's thriving in the display tank. I'm sending
another pic for better clarity. I took my book (your book)
into the LFS for reference and I was positive this was a
Latticed Butterflyfish. If not then what is it? Thank you.
Jennifer <... is a Raffle's... see here:
http://wetwebmedia.com/Goodchaetodon.htm This one is
dangerously thin. I would move it post haste to permanent
quarters... with plenty of live rock, other feeding. B>
Re: Another ich question... 4/17/08 She
started eating mysis shrimp yesterday.. couple times a day.
I put a well algae covered piece of live rock in with her
today that she's picked at some. Thanks for all of your
help and reassurance!! Jennifer <Ahh! Good news... and
yes to there being a few common names for this Chaetodon
species. Cheers! BobF>
|
|
Re: Another ich question... BF not eating 04/21/08
Hi Bob.. need some help. My Chaetodon has pretty much
stopped eating. It was picking at the live rock and has now
ceased doing that. I've tried everything I can find on
WWM... mysis, Cyclops, clam, krill, worms.. nothing. Now
she stays in the corner of the tank where as she was
actively swimming around. I'm concerned. The only thing
I didn't try was brine. Any ideas what I can try? Thank
you. Jennifer P.S. The Lympho spots fell off. <This BF
is in your main tank now I take it. I would avail yourself
of appetite stimulants... my fave are those containing
Selco's product. Bob Fenner>
Re: Another ich question... 04/22/08 Thank you.
I'll shop around for Selco products and give it a try.
Jennifer <Please do so... and quickly. Selcon is a fave
and quite readily available. As stated early on the
Lattice/Raffle's butterflyfish is not easily kept in
general... mostly due to feeding (or lack thereof)
issues... B>
Re: Another ich question...04/22/08 Perhaps I
misunderstood, but I chose this BF due to it being listed
on the "good Chaetodon" list as noted in the link
in your previous email and in the Conscientious Marine
Aquarist. Is this going to be a losing battle or should I
try to take him back to the LFS? Jennifer <Mmmm, I do
concur with you re this fish's listing... how to put
this... the Raffle's is on the border of good to medium
for Chaetodontids... not amongst the "best"
choices (e.g. Aurigas, Raccoons...). IF the folks will take
this fish back, I might return it, but it will very likely
perish due to further handling... How to further elaborate
re BF's? I have friends in the trade who
won't/don't handle the family period... Due to too
many "anomalous deaths"... One way of stating
this is some sort of arbitrary scale could be made for all
fishes, livestock viability... with BF's starting at
half the score/scale period. Bob Fenner>
|
Re: Another ich question... BF 4/23/08 That's good
to know. If this one doesn't make it I'll will give up on
the BFs. There is a LFS that I usually buy all livestock from and
they told me they won't sell BFs because they don't live
long in captivity...should have listened to them. Thank you for
all your help, Bob, it is very much appreciated!! Jennifer
<Welcome Jen! BobF>
|
Angel Help Please... parasites 7/11/07 Hi I
have 2 Angels A Koran and Imperator. One came down with what I
thought was ich. I started giving him dips in Formalin 3 by
Kordon which has saved a few fish for me in the past. I
didn't want to treat the tank is why I use dips as I have in
the past with good results. <As part of a careful regimen...
returning the fishes to another, parasite-free setting...> Now
the fish still has a velvet looking dusting on them and the fins
are nubs. There eyes were clouded over and bulging out but that
has gotten better They stopped eating today also. I was feeding
very lightly. I also added Melafix to help promote skin and fin
healing. <... of no use whatsoever> Well I'm afraid
they are going to die today if I don't do something?
<Soon> I sent pics and hope you can point me in the right
direction. I'm going to be so bummed. I love your site and it
has helped me and I can see others very much and I Thank You Rick
<Well... not much can be definitively discerned from such/said
photos... You might have another or combination infestation going
here... No way to tell w/o microscopic examination. But I would
be treating for Amyloodinium (see WWM re) concurrently... Please
scan/read here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/mardisindex.htm Bob
Fenner>
Re: Angel Help Please 7/11/07
Thanks Im learning so many mistakes I have made since reading
your site. Im headed to the store for some copper and a copper
test kit. To save me time could you tell me if I should treat for
a secondary infection with Maracyn or Maracyn 2. Thanks Again and
wish me luck! Rick <Mmm, no. RMF>
Re: Angel Help Please 7/11/07
OK Thanks Again. I went to the store and bought some CopperSafe.
Its all they had. I almost didn't want to use it when I got
home because all things considering they looked a little better
when I got home with the copper. I have a 29 gallon hospital tank
but put the Angels in a bucket with 4 gallons of water from the
hospital tank. I was afraid to treat the tank and get new tank
syndrome? Will I? <Please read re....> I also bought a
copper test kit. I have read a copper concentration of 0.15 -
0.20 ppm is most effective. <No... please read....> Well
the CopperSafe says use 1 tsp per 4 gallons of water and will
give a 1.5 ppm to 2.0 ppm. Says it can be used that way because
it has a cleating agent. Have you had good luck with CopperSafe?
<...> I went to 2 different pet stores and that's all
they had. I sure want these guys to make it. There like dogs to
me now and eat right from my hand. Also you guys are such a huge
help to me and many others. How do you do it? <I key
quickly> Do you have services and products you offer? I would
like to swing any business in the future your way in
appreciation. Thanks Rick <... Please... there is precious
little time for your livestock... Learn to/use the indices,
search tool on WWM re these (and many other questions that will
come up); there is no time to go back/forth here with all you
likely need to know. BobF> Re: Angel Help Please
7/11/07 Hi Im treating with the CopperSafe now in a 5 gallon
bucket and they have been it for 3 hours or so. <?!> I just
checked the water and the ammonia is shooting up 1.5 ppm. I just
changed the water again. Should I do dips from the copper water
to the hospital tank? Im afraid the ammonia spikes will kill
them. Thanks Again Rick <Please... RMF>
Re: Angel Help Please
7/13/07 Well the Koran didn't make it.
<Jamie... you didn't read...> The reason I would treat
in a 5 gallon bucket <Where did anyone suggest treating
marines in a bucket?> is I didn't want to kill my water in
the hospital tank with the copper. <This makes no sense>
Left them in there for 4-5 hours then put them back in the
hospital tank. If my hospital crashes I would have no where to
put them. <Have to keep changing the water...> Im somewhat
confused by the instructions to treat the tank. How do I do that
when after I treat within a half hour the ammonia spikes up?
<This IS ALL posted> What is the best way to work with this
CopperSafe? The instructions don't give details about the
ammonia? The good news is the Imperator Angel looks great today
in the hospital tank and is eating again and eyes focusing, has a
lot of color back. Bad news is the tang is sick in the main tank.
Your answers last time were somewhat vague? What I want to know
is if I treat with CopperSafe? What do I do when ammonia shoots
up? I would to treat on a ongoing basis until there completely
cured but with the ammonia shooting up I wont have a place to
treat. Thanks In Advance Rick <Please... don't write...
READ. B>
Re: Angel Help Please
7/13/07 I treat in a 5 gallon bucket because I didn't
want the hospital tank to crash. If I use copper or any med just
about for that matter it will. I have read your site and did
searches for hours now and maybe I missed it but if I do treat
the hospital tank? How often should I change the water? I have
read everything about a QT tank except I don't see anything
about the ammonia spikes and water changes when it does. Also
this might be a dumb question to you but do I just change the
water with premixed RO water that hasn't cycled? That is my
main question here? The Imperator Angel looks real good now. Its
unbelievable how he's improved in 1 day from the 5 hour
copper dip. I want to keep treating but want to know for sure
about the water changes and if its ok to RO water premixed
without it cycling for such a large water change. I don't
want to keep taking water from my display tank because it will
crash if I keep taking and adding water. If you could please
answer my question about the water change I will leave you guys
be for awhile till my next major crisis comes up. Thanks For The
Great Help Rick <You're writing... B>
|
|
The Eighth-Millionth Ich-Related Question
07/04/07 Dear Bob & Crew, <<Hi Mike...EricR here>>
How nice to have a "go to" resource in times of
need/confusion. (after reading WWM articles and FAQ's on the
subject until my eyes fell out, of course. Optometrist appt. tomorrow)
<<Hee-hee! I just had mine "lasered" a week ago myself!
We're happy to be here for you...>> I currently have an
approx. 3" Longnose Butterfly in quarantine. Fish
"seemed" to be healthy, alert, active and was eating at LFS.
Transported in BIG bag as per WWM handling instructions.
<<Okay>> Thanks to The Contentious Marine Aquarist, for
making me quarantine first or this could have been really ugly. (Main
tank is fine, knock, knock.) <<Indeed>> This is the
Butterfly I quarantined with the Blood Shrimp to help keep him calm.
This Butterfly has been my most relaxed in QT yet. (eating Mysis)
<<Cool>> QT is basic 10gal with 10lbs LR and 1/2" Reef
Sand, Hang-on Filter with Bio Wheel and a heater. (LR and Sand might
have to be exchanged for PVC here? Garbage is on Tuesdays) <<Ah
yes, as you are likely aware the rock/substrate can/will harbor disease
organisms. Best to go "bare-bottom" and use something for
"cover" likely eh PVC that can be "sterilized" or
easily/cheaply replaced if need be. Also, Im compelled to mention that
10-gallons is really too small for all but the smallest fish speciesdo
consider a 29-gallon or larger tank for your QT system>> Approx.
10% water changes done weekly. Temp 76deg. pH 8.2. No measurable
amounts of ammonia, nitrites or nitrates. Just like my main tank with
one exception. I keep my S.G. low to start (1.019) to match the LFS
tanks so I can acclimate stressed fish quickly on arrival (1 hr.) while
supposedly reducing the chances of Ich while fish is still new and
stressed. <<Okaybut a pH and temperature balanced freshwater dip
would probably go further/be more effective re the Ich. And keeping the
salinity up in the QT will definitely be better for the shrimp>>
I have been watching the shrimp - fine active and eating under these
conditions. Is this a mistake on my part to QT like this even if I
bring up SG slowly near end of QT period? <<Mmm, hard to
sayhypo-salinity is generally not recommended for inverts, but while in
QT, its initial/short-term use may reduce stress on the fishesthough I
do not condone its use in the display tank. And as mentioned, a
properly prepared freshwater dip going in and coming out of QT is a
good practice/prophylactic treatment>> Go figure. My first
contented, relaxed fish in QT is developing "spots". (did I
thank the book yet that it's not in my main tank?) <<An oft
stress-induced response to handling/transport. Andhave you also
considered this ailment may not have come with the fish but may have
been awaiting in the QT amongst the sand/live rock?>> Started
with two noticeable spots on the tail. Now up to about four, and one on
his left fin. Not one spot on it's body, yet. It's been a few
days since I noticed the first couple. Fish behavior
"appears" to be ok. Appetite is good. Shrimp is not cleaning.
(and just when I wanted him to make me proud) <<Hmm, you said
this was a Blood shrimp (Lysmata debelius) yes? The Striped Cleaner
Shrimp (Lysmata amboinensis) is a better choice for cleaner duty in my
opinion>> These spots are NOT "white" like grains of
salt though. They are just noticeable small obscure spots on otherwise
transparent tail and fin. <<Maybe they went unnoticed/were there
all along. Maybe they are bits of sand/detritus from the QT>> It
is difficult to tell if they are on the surface even after considerable
staring, blinking and eye rubbing. Lighting has to be just so to see
the spots, but they are definitely there. <<Might be nothing to
worry about at all>> Also, mouth and base of fins are ok, but
there is a noticeable, depending on light, internal redness right
through the middle of this fish from behind head to tail that seems to
come and go. Not always apparent. <<Hmm>> I have not
increased the SG and am now slowly raising tank temp just in case.
First question: Are these two findings related? <<Im not
convinced they are findings yet>> Second question: If the spots
are NOT really white like grains of salt and not noticeably on the
surface, what could it be, if not Ich? <<Mmm, very difficult to
speculateand may be nothing at all>> Is it Canadian Ich?
(That's a joke, by the way, even if it is a poor one)
<<Ha!>> Third question: I read all about the freshwater dip
treatment shortly after reading (before buying this fish) all about the
risks of handling, netting fragile Longnoses. Is the risk of repeated
handling worth it yet or do I wait a bit and observe. <<At this
point I am inclined to just continue observation. If this is a
condition, the fishs immune system may well handle/be handling it. But
regarding the netting of this fish, if/when handling becomes necessary;
consider using a hard-sided container (like those used to hold netted
fishes at the LFS) to capture/move the fish between vessels>>
Last(?) question: If I have to treat the tank, do I have to move the
blood shrimp. <<Yes>> If I do, is it safe to move this
shrimp to the main tank or is he guilty by association and gets
solitary confinement as well? <<Though these inverts are not
typically hosts of the same protozoan infections we see on/treat our
fishes for, they can be carriers of same>> Sorry to have to send
you your eight-millionth Ich related question, <<Aha! You just
gave me the title for this query! [grin]>> but it does not seem
like an open and shut case, and my concern is a misdiagnosis might be
worse than none at all. <<Understoodbut I do think
patience/continued observation is called for at the moment>>
Thanks, eh. Mike from Canada <<Cheers mate. EricR-visiting in
beautiful San Diego>>
Re: The Eight-Millionth Ich-Related
Question 07/04/07 Dear Crew & Bob (in this case - sorry Bob)
<<Hell be crushedwellnoprobably not [grin]>> Thank you
Eric. <<Quite welcome>> Your answers were very insightful
and your efforts were not in vain. <<Cool>> First of all, I
always thought the day might come when I would run into a problem and
have to trash the LR and sand in the QT, but I never considered the
fact that the LR and or sand could actually be the host/cause of a
disease or problem. <<Mmm, wellnot so much hosting but more like
providing hiding places for cysts/larvae (can siphon a bare bottom
during water changes) and absorbing medicants from previous treatments.
But still, best to use a plastic medium you can bleach or even discard
between quarantine sessions>> This makes perfect sense and I
can't believe I missed it (Head Slap)! <<ouch!>> Also,
I see that the idea that the Butterfly is picking up these things on a
tail or fin from the LR etc., is also a strong possibility now that you
mention it (Another Head Slap)! <<Careful matedont want to shake
something loose>> I will know soon enough. <<Ah yes>>
From now on, we can refer to this syndrome as "Canadian Ich",
eh. (Doh!) <<Ha!>> I will increase the size of the QT as
suggested and keep it bare bottom with some inorganic cover.
<<Excellent>> I will also include the "Dip" into
this fish's schedule with your handling suggestions. After that,
patience and continued observation it is. <<Very good,
Grasshopper>> All great advise that make perfect sense.
<<My fingers are crossed that this is so>> People, we have
a plan! <<Woo-hoo!>> Consider it done. Now, off to the LFS
before they close to spend more money! <<Cha-ching!>> My
fish thank you. <<A pleasure to assist>> Mike from Canada,
eh. <<Regards, EricR>>
Re: Keeping Cleaner Shrimp / Butterfly
Possible Ich 7/2/07 Thanks for all your help Bob.
Unfortunately Spike, (the Longnose) did not make it past his fourth
day. The mail order supplier has offered to replace or refund including
shipping so I will be trying again. I have yet to decide if risking
overnight shipping is a good idea. However before I attempt that, I
have to assume that the white spots on the caudal fin were crypt and
therefore the QT is now infected. As the QT has a very strong
biological filter that's been running for several months, I would
rather not strip down and disinfect the QT. I have turned the temp up
to 85F <I'd raise this to 90 F.> and am considering lowering
SG for a period. <A good idea> I will also be removing the
substrate but leaving the live rock & Eheim Classic as a filter. Is
there anything else you would suggest ? Also, what minimum fallow time
period would you recommend ? The normal 28 days ? <This should do it
at the elevated temp. and lowered spg.> Finally, when removing from
the bag into QT I used a large plastic slotted spoon, thinking it was
better than a net - perhaps a bad idea in retrospect. <Mmm, I'd
use a soft net... or even my hand with Butterflyfishes (not all other
fish families though for sure)> Do you have any other ideas that are
more gentle. I thought about lowering the water in the bag to a minimum
and letting it swim out but wasn't sure on the dangers of allowing
the bag water into the QT after a 24 hour journey. Thanks -Peter <Do
read here re Guerilla Acclimation:
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/acclimat.htm You want to measure, do a few
things to account for the lowered pH, high nitrogenous wastes in the
shipping water and stock when it's been in transit this long. Bob
Fenner>
Ich, Copperband Butterfly 6/27/07 Hi
crew! <Hello> Quick question.. I searched and maybe there is no
answer to this but I'm asking anyway. I have a copperband butterfly
fish in QT (6 days now). It has ich and I have been treating with Rid
Ich+(4 days now). <Toxic stuff, not one of my choices for
treatment.> She (assuming) eats like a pig, swims great, but her
gills seem to be pumping harder than they should. <Probably a
combination of the Ich's effects on the gills and lower O2 levels
caused by the medications.> I know this is due to the parasite. I
did a freshwater dip with methylene blue last night for 9 minutes for
external parasites...she was fine. <Good> Is there anything I can
do to make her more comfortable or to make her gills not have to work
so hard?. or do I have to wait for this parasite to get out of her
gills? <Increasing circulation will help.> I know this may sound
like a stupid question. <Is not> But I've read on WWM on
copperband butterflyfish being fragile and she is a fighter. I
don't want to lose her...she already eats from my hand. Thanks! Jen
<Good luck> <Chris>
Re: Ich, Copperband Butterfly
6/27/07 Thanks Chris for the quick response! <Sure> Rid Ich
was not my first choice either but from everything I read on WWM they
are extremely sensitive to copper and I have never had any luck with
hypo. <True, I probably would have gone with straight Formalin,
instead of the Formalin/malachite green in Rid Ich+, a little less
toxic.> I had sent quite a few emails to WWM concerning the best
course of treatment but couldn't get a definitive answer. I know
there are not a lot of absolutes in this hobby, especially when it
comes to this nasty parasite. <Lots of different ideas out there,
best bet is to stick with the basics.> I do have a filter rated for
a 40 gal on the QT so the water is circulated quite well, should I add
an airpump to this as well for aeration? <Could, but probably
unnecessary.> When would it be safe to do another dip? <Have to
go on your judgment there, if it seems strong enough go for it.>
Thanks! <Welcome> <Chris>
Re: Ich, Copperband Butterfly 6/27/07
Chris, do you think it would be too late to PolyFilter out the Rid Ich
and treat with Formalin? Would it be too much on the fish? Thanks!
<At this point I would probably just continue with the current
treatment, stopping and starting all over again would probably be too
stressful. Watch your water quality carefully and the fish's
behavior.> <Chris>
Re: Ich, Copperband Butterfly 6/27/07
Ok, thanks...she's not eating as well today. Thank you again.
Jennifer <As long as she is eating some I would not worry too much
about it. If she stops completely then starting thinking about taking
action.>
Re: Ich, Copperband Butterfly 6/28/07
Ok, good to know...she is eating better now. <Good, probably just
not hungry before.> Per Rid Ich's instructions since today is
the 3rd day of treatment after signs of ich have disappeared (external
spots) I'll change 40% of the water and see what happens. <Give
her a full 6 weeks in QT to make sure it doesn't return.>
Question: Is Formalin always a better solution than Rid Ich.. if given
a choice between the two? Thanks! Jennifer <Formalin is in Rid Ich+,
along with malachite green, which are both effective but quite toxic. I
feel that since the formalin alone can cure the ich, that hitting the
fish with malachite green as well is overkill and exposing the fish to
unnecessary medication. I forgot to link you to this article, its one
of my favorites. http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-08/sp/index.php
.> <Chris>
Re: Ich, Copperband Butterfly 6/29/07
6 weeks in the QT is definitely the plan! <Good> And if ich does
flare up again I'll treat with formalin only...what's the point
of the malachite if formalin alone will kill the ich? <Differentiate
themselves form the competition and marketing, if 1 medication works
well, 2 must work twice is well.> Thanks for the link. I'll
check it out! While I've got you I have a pink watchman goby in a
qt for 6 days now. He was in with the copperband for 1 day then I
discovered ich and I put the goby in a separate QT. No signs of
ich...how long should I leave him in the QT? <At least 6 weeks, and
watch very closely, assume it has ich unless it can prove
otherwise.> According to WWM FAQ gobies don't fair well in a QT
for very long. What do you think? <I would assume it is carrying
ich, so it will need the full QT.> Thanks again! <Welcome>
<Chris>
Re: Ich, Copperband Butterfly 6/29/07
Thanks for all the great info Chris! I now have a plan of attack and am
better armed! Thanks again!! Jennifer <Great!>
<Chris>
Re: Ich, Copperband Butterfly 7/2/07
Chris, I read the link you sent. Do you recommend the formalin dip or
treating the whole tank? <I prefer treating the whole tank.> I
noticed what looks like a spot today, but it is rather large right on
her lateral line and I'm wondering if it's another problem or
an she scraped herself on a divider in the tank she uses to hide
behind. <Could be.> Whew and I was worried I wouldn't have
anything to do for awhile...haha! <Keep on trucking.> Thank you
again for you patience! Jennifer <Welcome>
<Chris>
Ich on sensitive fish?
6/24/07 Hello again crew!! Well.. I'm back again and since I
dodged the ich bullet in my main tank I wanted to add more fish. So I
started up a QT, did my research on the fish compatible (size and
temperament) and went hunting. I bought a copperband butterflyfish and
a pink and blue goby. They were in the same tank, had been in the LFS
for a month and both ate like pigs. I brought them home and put them in
the bare bottom QT, although there is some LR for the butterfly to
graze on (I'll remove if need be). Two days later I see a spot on
the butterflyfish. From what I see on WWM these are both sensitive fish
to ich treatments. I have chelated copper , formalin and Cupramine on
hand. Should I remove the goby to a separate tank.. I have a 5 gal I
could quickly set up. Please advise on best treatment. I've grown
quite attached to the butterflyfish.. it's very friendly. By the
way...is there a way to tell if it's a male or female? As
always...I'm in your debt!!!! Thank you! Jennifer <What I know
re is posted on WWM. BobF>
Is this Crypt ? Doubtful
5/9/07 Hey Crew, I recently added
some snails to my FOWLR after a 2-3 week quarantine in a reef tank
that had no fish. The reef tank is a 55 g system that
has been "closed" to new additions for 8
months and has no fish. On day 4 after adding the snails
I noted this on the right pec fin of my Emperor Angel. <This
system is too small for this species> There have been no
additions to this tank for over one year and the tank has been
disease free for 2 years. Is this crypt on the right pec
of my angel ? The fish is acting fine looks good, eats
like a pig, others in the tank are fine.
Thanks Jimmy
<Mmm, not likely. Bob Fenner> |
Re: Is this Crypt ? 5/9/07 Hey
Bob, Sorry I did not make myself
clear...the Emp. Angel is in a 180g FOWLR.... <Ahh! Thank you
for this. The tank did appear larger...> the snails were
quarantined in a 55 g reef (no fish) for 2-3
weeks. Snails then were added to the 180 g FOWLR. I last
added snails about 2 years ago and they slowly died off ( turbo
snails ) and I needed to add some more... Thanks so much for all of
your help over the past couple of years... both of my systems are
doing great and much of the info that I have used has come from
your book as well as wet web media. All of you do a great
job Jimmy <Thank you for your kind, encouraging
words. Cheers, Bob Fenner> |
|
Treatment of Marine Ich- Which Option Is
Best? 4/4/07 Dear Crew, <Scott F. your Crew member
tonight!> I love the site, and I've learned a great deal from
it. I think I've read all the articles and FAQ's on your site
regarding ich, formalin, and copper, but I still have some questions. I
purchased a Flame Dwarf Angel and a Banggai Cardinal a week ago and put
them in a 15 gallon QT. Within a few days, the Flame Angel developed
ich. <Sorry to hear that- but it's great that you embraced a
quarantine procedure! As bad as it sounds, it's better to have the
fish come down with an illness in the quarantine tank than in your
display system.> I read on your site that flame angels are sensitive
to both copper and formalin, but thought the formalin would be the
better way to go. <According to most people, it is. I personally
have always used chelated copper remedies with good results in
Centropyge Angelfishes. You MUST follow the manufacturer's
recommendations for dosage and duration to the letter, and be sure to
test the copper levels daily to assure that you are maintaining a
correct therapeutic dose. Yes, Centropyge can be sensitive to copper,
so I guess I cannot say that I "recommend" it for everyone.
However, it has been, and will continue to be my remedy of choice for
treatment of Cryptocaryon.> I put my first dose of formalin in the
QT Sunday, and by Monday night, the flame angel was dead (not a good
day). <Sorry to hear that. One of the reasons I like copper is that
you can actually test for the concentration, to make sure that
you're not overdosing. Nonetheless, many hobbyists use
formalin-based products for their treatment of this illness with good
results.> With the Flame Angel gone, am I better switching to
non-chelated copper with a copper test, or should I continue with the
formalin? It sound like copper may be more effective. <Well, you saw
my thoughts! I'd stick it out with copper, myself, as outlined
above.> Also, I am curing live rock and inadvertently rinse off the
live rock in a bucket I had been using for water changes for the QT
tank. Do I most likely have ich on my live rock now? And if so, do I
need to leave it fallow in my curing tub for another 6 - 8 weeks like I
would need to do for a display tank? <A good thought on your part! I
would definitely keep it in a separate holding container for the period
that you mention. You just have to assume that the rock may be hosting
a stage of the causative protozoa, and as such, it's too risky to
place it in your display tank yet.> Thanks for your help. <Glad
to be of service! Keep up with your excellent observations and
intuitive thinking! It will serve you well in this hobby!> P.S. I
love CMA, but it is starting to get somewhat dated. Does Bob have any
plans of coming out with a second edition? I know I would buy it!
<<Thank you for this prompting... Have sent your note to James
Lawrence/Microcosm... we never even got the "Reef" version of
this work into print! Bob Fenner>> Darren White Downingtown, PA
<Well...whaddya think, Bob? Regards, Scott F.>
New Blue-Face Angel with eating woes and ich
3/1/07 Hi Guys, <Hello.> great site. <Thanks.> I added
my "center piece" fish last week. <Cool.>
He is a 6 inch adult Blue Face Angel. <Still a little
guy.> He is in 125 FOWLR with 100lbs of live <Adequate space for
a year or so.> rock. This system is 1 year
old. His tank mates include 2) 3inch regal tangs, 1) 3inch
purple tang, 1) 3inch coral beauty angel, 1) 4inch changing imperator
angel, <Mmm...would not have put both these angels in such a
confined space.> 1) long nose hawkfish, 1) perc clown 1) purple
firefish and 1) black cap Basslet. <Tis a lot of animals for a tank
fo this size.> I also have small cleaner crew that
consists of 20 hermits 12 Mexican turbo snails and a two cleaner
shrimp. I did not QT the blue face because of his size (I
only had a 10g QT Tank). <Yes, that would not have been pretty.>
He was eating Mysis at the LFS and had been there 3
weeks. He looked perfect. He hid as expected and
did not come out during feedings (3 cubes of Mysis, 1 cube Angel
Formula with sponge and a piece of frozen Krill). <I would not begin
to worry yet.> I also clip in a sheet of Green
Seaweed. On day three I saw him eating the krill from the
bottom but other than that I have not observed him eating.
<Again too soon to be concerned, and the above behavior is
promising.> I have been putting in the food with a baster and
leaving right away in the hopes that he is eating when not
observed. The sheet is gone every night and the big pieces
of krill are gone within an hour. He looked good until day
Seven (today) when I noticed he had ick or velvet. <Likely ich if
not dead yet, velvet is a quick killer, and if he has so does everyone
else.> He is actually out in the open alot today but he clearly has
the effects of the parasites on his body. First, what do
you recommend to treat him. I won't to leave him in the
tank because of his size. I don't want to use copper
because I'd rather leave the inverts and rock in place. <Read
here and subsequent links, (also check reefkeeping online mag. for
Steven Pro ich/crypt article: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ichartmar.htm.>
Second, do you have some better feeding recommendations.
<What you are feeding is good, but a larger variety would not hurt,
Ocean nutrition makes an angel formula and Selcon wouldn't be a bad
vitamin supp.> Thanks in advance and please advise. <Welcome.>
Francisco J <Adam J.>
Heniochus acuminatus with Ich 6/23/06 Hi WWM
crew!! <Hi> I have an Heniochus acuminatus that show symptoms of
ick. <Uh oh> It has white spots, that look like salt. It
doesn't have that much but it still concerns me. <It should>
It is still eating well. It doesn't breathe rapidly. All the other
fish are healthy. <All other fish are infected with Ich, just not
symptomatic.> I don't want to treat the main tank, because I
have some invertebrate. <Almost always a bad idea.> I am not able
to set up a hospital tank, I don't have the space for it, since I
live in an apartment. <Really need one, doesnt need to be always set
up, can be taken down when not in use. Without a QT/hospital
tank expect to continue to have problems with communicable
diseases.> Yesterday, I have give it a freshwater bath( specific
gravity: 1.008) with blue methylene for 10 minutes. <Provides
temporary relief, not a cure.> But, today, it still shows symptoms
of ICK. <Most likely will continue until the ich life cycle is
broken.> What should I do to treat my fish? <If you are
unable/unwilling to get a hospital/QT tank and remove and treat all
fish and allow the tank to run follow there is not much you can
do. Provide good quality water and food and hope the
fish's immune system and fight off the ich.> I have bought a
Formaldehyde - green malachite solution to use it in a bath, but I am
not sure if it is a good idea and how much should I use and for how
long. <Toxic stuff, I'm not a big fan of it. Baths
will help temporarily, but when the fish is returned to the tank they
will be reinfected.> Could I use copper in a bath that would last
for a long time? <Not effective.> If yes, how much should I use
and for how long? Any other treatment I could try? <Not that
wouldn't nuke the tank. Medications are not specific
enough to kill the ich and not destroy the live rock and
biofiltration.> Thank you very very much!!! I hope
my fish will be fine, I really like it!! <Hope so.> Steve T.
<Chris>
Heniochus acuminatus with Ich Part II 6/30/06
Hi Chris, <Hi> As per your advice, I am actually looking to setup
a hospital tank for my fish, to help to get ride of the ick problem...
I have 2 clown fish, 2 green Chromis, 1 neon goby, 1 six line wrasse
and the Heniochus. What size of hospital should I go with? <Good to
hear, at least a 20 for all those fish. If easier you could
go with a couple of smaller tanks and split up the livestock.> Today
the Heniochus have stopped to eat... :( <Uh-oh> What is my best
bet with it? Should I give it a freshwater bath until I set-up the
hospital tank? Any other ideas? <A bath may help, make sure its ph
adjusted and the right temperature. Try adding either Selcon
or garlic to the food. Both seem to stimulate the feeding
response. If it goes too long try some live brine
shrimp.> Thank you very much... Steve <Good luck and remember to
QT any new additions to avoid these problems in the future.>
<Chris>
Heniochus acuminatus with Ich Part III 7/1/06
Hi again Chris, <Hi> Sorry to bother you again, <No
bother.> I promise I will quarantine any new addition to my tank in
the future. <Good> But, I just have a idea of what I could try to
cure my fish from ick and get it out of my main tank. I know that the
WWM crew are not big fan of hyposalinity, but could I just buy a tank
(the one I would use in the future to quarantine any new addition) and
use it to put all my hermit crab. They are the only invert I have in my
system. I would put many pieces of live rock with them. So I would not
kill all the zooplankton in LR and the crabs would be more safe...
Could I lower the SPG in the main tank to kill the ick in it? I would
keep the hermit crab apart for 6 weeks. Would it be effective? If yes,
at what SPG would it cure the fish without being stressful to the fish?
I have read from ATJ (the only name I have found of that guy) that the
SPG should be at 1.009 to kill the ick. You can see this article here :
'' http://www.petsforum.com/personal/trevor-jones/hyposalinity.html''
What do you think of that? <Well, it will get rid of the Ich if kept
at that salinity long enough. However, it will also kill off
most of your live rock, and in the process cause a huge ammonia
spike. If you remove all the LR there will probably not be
sufficient biofiltration and cause the same problem.> Thank you very
very much for your help. If I found that the better treatment is the
copper in a hospital tank, I will do it... Honestly, I don't feel
confident about my capacity to keep them all alive in a basic none
established system, though. <With lots of water changes should be
fine. Could also use Bio-Spira to jump start the
biofiltration.> Steve <Chris>
Heniochus acuminatus with Ich Part IV 7/3/06
Hi again, <Hi> I just wanted to say that I should have listen to
you one week ago. I mean I should have treated it as fast as I could.
Even if the Heniochus had finally eaten yesterday, I have found it
today in my overflow box dead. <Sorry to hear.> I just
feel like crap. The worst thing, it was my girlfriend fish... It was
her birthday present. <Yeah, I learned that lesson the hard way too,
no fish for gifts.> I don't think she will like the
tank anymore... I feel right now like I would give up too... It is sad
that I had to make that fish die just to learn a so simple lesson!!
<Been there, done that. Almost quit after losing my
possum wrasse, loved that fish.> So, I know that I will sing the
same old song!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! TO EVERYONE,
don't be damn stupid like me, DO QUARANTINE YOUR FISH!!!!!!!! <A
convert, and ready to give others the advice, some good out of a bad
situation.> So now that the only really sick fish is dead (the
wrasse only had 2-3 spots and it is now gone), should I just wait 1
week or 2 before I start to treat them in a hospital tank? <Start
immediately.> I mean that way I could let some sponge in my tank to
have some biofiltration ready for the quarantine process. <See if
you ca find some Bio-Spira to kick-start the
biofiltration. But do not buy it if it hasn't been kept
refrigerated, some stores don't and without it the bacteria will
die.> Should I start using the biofiltration right at the beginning
or after the copper treatment so, the copper would not kill the
biofiltration? <From the beginning.> Can I
use filter pad that absorb ammonia with a copper treatment? <No, all
will also remove the copper as far as I know, just have lots of new
salt water ready for water changes.> If not, would it be
better to use hyposalinity, so I could use absorbent resin to help to
maintain good quality of water ? <Most of the bacteria cannot
survive the salinity change anyway, so copper is probably the better
way to go.> Again Thank YOU VERY VERY MUCH for your patience
Chris!!! <Anytime> <Chris>
Ich treatment for Dwarf Angels 8.11.05 Hello
Folks, My main tank has come down with ich. I first noticed
it on my hippo tang, and shortly there after the spots
appearing on all the other fish. (I have 1 hippo tang,
3 dwarf angels, 1 lawnmower blenny, and 2 clowns) <Have the dwarf
angels been together long. Over one year... six months even? An
unnatural mix and some source of stress indeed> From what I've
read angels don't do well with copper, correct?
<True> So I should use a formalin product like Kordon's
Rich-Ich +, correct? <This could be helpful... in
a bare-bottomed QT tank. Never dose formalin in the main display. Nor
organic dyes for that matter when you have live rock.> Do you
recommend the full dosage (1 tsp per 10 gallons), or should I go with
a half dosage? <Always full strength in
QT> If I go with a half dose I'm assuming this will
prolong the treatment time? Thanks!! Travis <In addition
to conventional medications, I like to soak food in garlic extract and
beta Glucan (get from GNC health stores). I believe these to be very
helpful. Best of luck, Anthony>
Ich treatment for dwarf angels II 8.11.05 the
dwarf angels have been together for about three months. they
were added at the same time and get along fine.
<It means little... and is hardly a test of time. If yours are like
most, they will scrap in time (sexual maturity) and be a constant
source of stress for each other. The mix is unnatural and ill-advised
IMO> the reason I asked about the dosage is because I read something
on your site about certain fish being sensitive to such
medication . _ http://www.wetwebmedia.com/formalinart.htm_
( http://www.wetwebmedia.com/formalinart.htm)
<understood> It reads: "Some groups of freshwater fishes
(small Characoids/tetras, Mormyrids, loaches...) and marines
(Surgeonfishes, Rabbitfishes, dwarf angelfishes...) are
sensitive to formalin and formalin/malachite, and should
not receive more than half doses of these chemicals. Live
plants are also made of proteins... and will die if exposed to
formalin. Formalin kills microbes indiscriminately, including
nitrifying bacteria. Hence you will need to monitor the accumulation of
ammonia and nitrite, and take steps to prevent
their exceeding 1.0 ppm (likely by massive changes of
pre-conditioned water)." Thanks. <Formalin by itself is no more
stressful than most any other meds in general, but with organic dyes
like malachite green, the angels can respond badly. Watch closely...
but I'm still saying full dose and standard QT protocol (daily
water changes form the bare bottom of the tank to reduce larval
parasites, etc). Anthony> <<RMF would heed the
manufacturer's warning and treat only half dose.>>
The Ich
Warrior Is On The Offensive! Hi Scott, <Hello again!>
Appreciate your quick response in my time of aquatic turmoil. Do you
think Formalin 3 is a good treatment for the flame angel in the
hospital tank? The bottle of Formalin says that the dose can be
repeated every 24 hours is that o.k? I'm going to go
easier on the hospital tank meds this time around. <I'd follow
the manufacturer's instructions to the letter with this, or any
medication> Like you said, you must be relentless back to
the ich parasites to beat this thing and you're not exaggerating
one bit!! <Yep, but you CAN beat it!> I'll let you know how
this thing goes. <Please do! Good luck!> Thanks again, Ed <Go
get 'em, Ed! Regards, Scott F.>
Fighting Ich The Easy Way? I'm starting to
feel indebted to you guys for all the help you have given
me. Here is my question for the day. I have a
flame angel in quarantine, about 3 inches long. He was
brought in from Hawaii two weeks ago from LFS. <Excellent fish,
excellent procedure, and the best place to get 'em from!>
Curious about surroundings, eating some prepared food, nibbling on
everything in sight, seemed healthy. He is now in my
quarantine tank, been there for two days, started showing some signs of
ich, 5 or 6 spots on him. Do I have to medicate, or can I just siphon 1
or 2 gallons a day from the bottom of the tank, hoping for him to
battle this on his own. <Actually, the procedure is 100%
changes, siphoning from the bottom of the bare quarantine tank. By
doing this, you're removing any encysted stages of the parasite
that may be present. It's not that traumatic, actually, if you are
using water from your display tank as the QT water. You're simply
replacing the water in the QT with water of the exact same temperature
and composition; the same water that the fish will be living in for the
rest of his life. Really pretty safe! I'd try this before I'd
resort to chemicals, particularly with Centropyge species. Lon-term use
of copper is a definite no-no with these guys.> He is still
eating. I don't want to give him a fresh water dip (my
usual procedure) because I gave him one when I first got him and he
didn't like it, tried to jump, spitting water at surface,
etc... I think that the stress from the dip may have
actually triggered the ich. <Possible. Centropyge don't take
well to FW dips on occasion! I agree with your decision not to do a dip
again.> By the way I don't think I did anything wrong with the
first dip, ph adjusted, temp adjusted, aerated R/O water, about 8 min.s
long, the same procedure I have used with success on my tangs).
<Yep- you did fine. A great procedure; it's just that some
fishes don't take well to it!> If you feel I can wait this out,
at what point, or what signs would you wait for to determine if I have
to take further action? i.e.: just watch him if he is acting
normally with just a few spots, medicate him if he is showing further
signs of disease like scratching and more spots. <You're reading
my mind!> If I should medicate him, what do you recommend?
<I'd consider a product with Formalin in lieu of Copper
Sulphate> Thanks for your help. <Glad to be of assistance. I
think that you are on the right track here. Keep this guy eating a
variety of foods, give him excellent water quality, use the water
change technique and he may just pull through without any other
intervention required! Good luck! Regards, Scott
F>
Attacking Ich! I bought a coral beauty a week
and a half ago. It looked great in the store, and initially
after getting it home. I freshwater dipped it for 4 and a
half minutes and put it in a 10 gal quarantine, and began the whole
waiting thing. <Good to hear that!> I noticed about 3 days after
getting it home that it had a dusting of tiny white spots. I guessed
this was ich, and planned to get medicine the next day. When I got up
the next day, the spots were gone. I figured maybe the fish was just
stressed from the dip? I did not medicate. It looked fine
(no spots) for about a week, but yesterday I noticed that it once again
had a dusting of white spots. I gave him a 9 and a half
minute freshwater dip (ph and temp adjusted), and totally drained the q
tank. I washed out the quarantine tank, tossed all filter
media, and cleaned everything well with tap water. I then
refilled the q tank with water from my main tank. The q tank
has an 8 watt UV on it (I know you are not big fans of these, but I had
it hanging around). <I like UV- If you have it, use it!> Should I
do anything else to ensure no ich comes back? More
dips? Medication? <You could continue the FW dips, and if
they appear to be working, you don't need to medicate. I'm a
big fan of copper sulphate as the medication of choice, but this stuff
is not well-tolerated by Centropyge angelfishes. A formalin-based
product is a better choice for this species, if you want to go the
medication route. You could also employ 100% water changes/bottom
siphoning in the quarantine tank, in the hope of removing all of the
cysts/free swimming stages of the Cryptocaryon parasite from the
tank...> I can't find medication that has formalin but not
malachite green anywhere around here. How long should I wait after all
signs of ich are gone before adding him to my main tank? <I'd
wait at least 2 weeks, possibly 3 weeks> I have been doing 50% water
changes on the q tank every other day, but the nitrite still is usually
around 1 ppm. I know this is not great, but I just don't
have time to do water changes every day. Will this be
a problem? <It will not be a source of comfort, for sure! This is
one of those rare cases where it may be beneficial to use one of the
commercially-available "bacteria cultures" to give a boost to
the biological processes that you need to foster...> Any advice you
can give on ridding my coral beauty of ich is appreciated. Thank
you, Ken Roe <I hope that these ideas will give you some food for
thought. Regards, Scott F.>
Fish in transit... with ich?
On 2/11/05 I bought the final fish for my 75
gallon tank - a Flame angel. When I saw her in the tank in
the LFS there were two of them. The one in the tank just
above the one she was in appeared to me to have ich. In fact
I said to the dealer, "it looks like this one has a little
ich" and he said, "I don't see any
ich". She, on the other hand, looked good and I saw no
sign of ich at all. I brought her home
and put her in my 29 gallon quarantine tank (that has two small pieces
of live rock in it ( otherwise bare). I had to go on an
overnight trip to Baton Rouge on Thursday but placed a small amt of
flake food in two cups (one for Thursday night and one for Friday
morning) for someone else to feed while I was gone. Came
home this evening and it appears to me that she might now have ich on
her caudal fin. I don't see any on her pectoral fins but
she moves pretty fast and it's hard to tell. I'm not
sure it's ich (I keep trying to convince myself that maybe it's
food remnants that are stuck to her fin) but I'm thinking maybe it
is. Otherwise she looks great - good weight, great color,
etc. What should be my next
step? Should I keep her in quarantine and not treat her - on
the theory that it will go away by itself? Should I try a freshwater
dip (which scares me), or should I take the live rock out of the Q tank
and start copper therapy? If I take the live rock out of the
Q tank, is it safe to put it back into my main system if it has been
exposed to a fish with ich? I'd very much
appreciate your advice on this.
Thanks, Toni <I
would do the first... keep the fish in quarantine... and not treat it.
Did you dip this fish on the way to being placed in quarantine? I
definitely would do so on the way to your main display. Bob
Fenner>
Re: Fish in transit... with ich? Well, I
didn't do the freshwater dip (because I was afraid) but I watched
the fish for almost a week more and then on Thursday the 17th I was
sure that the fish had something. There was something on both his
caudal fin and his pectoral fins. On Friday the 18th I noticed that the
fish was now swimming at the top of the water column?? I then did a
water change, tested the water to make sure everything was ok - which
is was - removed the live rock to a bucket of saltwater taken from my
main tank and added a powerhead to that. Now the fish was in a bare
tank. I removed the sponge carbon filter and threw it away and added a
little less than three capfuls of ParaGuard to the 29 gallon quarantine
tank. I woke up this morning and the fish was dead. <From?> After
removing the fish from the water it appeared to me that a small portion
of his caudal fin was gone. I thought maybe he had tail and fin rot.
I'm really worried about how I'm doing things now. Is it
possible for a fish that looked healthy in the LFS to come home to a
QTank and in 3 weeks develop tail and fin rot and die? <Yes...
but... to be clear/er... the "rot" is/was very likely just
decomposition... happens quickly> The other flame fish that was in
the tank above her in the LFS is still there. This is a tough hobby if
you live in a small town. There are 2 fish stores in this land-locked
town and I have concerns about how cavalier they are with their
livestock. Neither store does any quarantining. <Even if they did, I
would still do my own> One store has every tank in the store on the
same water system so I think if there's something in one tank
it's in all their tanks. The other store has very poor management
and goes for long periods with no fish at all. <Mmm,
there's always "mail order"> Tonight I put a new
carbon sponge filter in the QTank to remove what ParaGuard might be in
there. What is your advice on whether or not I should put the live rock
back into the Qtank? I worry it might have organisms on it from
the sick fish and contribute to the death of any other fish I
eventually place in there. What do you think? Should I throw the live
rock out? Would it ever be safe to put back into may main tank?
<Yes... leave it somewhere... in the quarantine system... for a
month and no problem> Also when will it be safe to put another fish
in the QTank? <Another month plus> Any advice would be greatly
appreciated. Thanks, Toni <Toni, you would do well to have one or
two good reference books that you could read "all the way
through" and gain a good/thorough understanding of what is going
on here? I sense a profound desire to understand, and can assure you
that the "experiential" model/mode of learning as you've
been doing is very unsatisfying... There are many disparate, spirited,
opposed opinions/facts re aquatic animal health... hard to discern them
w/o a complete background in set-up, maintenance, simple chemistry and
physics... Bob Fenner>
Help me Save my Coral Beauty Hi guys...
<Ceri> Well I just bought a Coral Beauty Angel, he looked OK in
the LFS but the next day after bringing him home he developed white
patches on the fins and I am starting to see small white specs on him.
<Man, this is the year for parasitic troubles!> Not many just a
few. So, I read, read, and read some more on your site. This is what I
have done. Good news, I put him directly in a QT tank. I have raised
temperature to 80 and lower salinity for hyposalinity conditions. I
have also ordered some Methylene Blue and CopperSafe. <Good
moves> So, here are the questions. How many times do I perform the
fresh water dip with Methylene Blue? Only once? <Once (on the way
into QT) is best> Once a day? Leave him there for 3-5 minutes?
<About right...> How do I know if this stresses the fish?
<Observation... that the fish isn't laying over "too
much", breathing "too hard"...> Also, won't
putting him back into the affected water re-start the ich? <Bingo,
yes... the reason the dip/bath is best performed en route...> Should
I start the copper treatment as soon as he is returned to tank?
<ASAP> If he looks better I understand I need to stop the copper
treatment through water changes. <Actually, no... you need to keep a
physiological dose of free/cupric ion present for the two week
treatment period... you may well not see the "ich
itself"...> I then want to bring water to the same conditions
as my main tank. I am worried that lowering the temperature will bring
Ich back, is that possible? <Not if it is not present...> Please
advise, I want to save this guy. So far, he still looks good, but not
eating as well today. Poor thing has no algae to eat in the QT, hope
this is OK. I have never done a fresh water dip before, I am probably
more stressed than the fish! Thanks...Ceri. <Likely... these baths
are not of themselves that much strain on the fish... the netting is
far worse... Bob Fenner><<Wish I would have emphasized that
once the Cryptocaryon was off the hosts, it would not
"magically" reappear like freshwater (Ichthyophthiriasis)
ich. RMF>>
Re: Help me Save my Coral Beauty Thanks Bob,
really appreciate your help. Since catching this guy will be
stressful...and I would have to put him back into the same QT, should I
skip the dip and go for the copper only? <Yes, I would. Thanks for
the clarification> (yes lessoned learned, will dip all new first
FIRST) Copper hasn't arrived yet, I will start as soon as it does.
Do I keep the water at hyposalinity during the copper, or can I bring
it back to normal? Thanks...Ceri <Can leave low if the fishes being
treated are not "too" stressed already... a balance my
friend. Bob Fenner>
Re: Help me Save my Coral Beauty, ich Great,
thanks Bob. I will slowly bring water conditions back up to normal. I
don't want to fight monitoring copper and hyposalinity tank at the
same time. My QT has live rock and substrate it in (thanks to LFS who
suckered me into it). I will remove before starting copper treatment as
I understand it makes an accurate reading difficult <Actually will
quickly absorb the copper> (from the FAQs on your site !!) and will
ease in removal of these nasty bugs !! Thanks for the support. Ceri.
<You're welcome my friend. Steady on. Bob
Fenner>
Coral Beauty/Copper - Follow-up Hi guys...well
I am sad to say my Coral Beauty has taken a turn for the worse. I
started copper and now he looks TERRIBLE. Appears as if there are no
white specs on him, but there is a large white fuzzy patch, that is
growing, right next to his, well, butt. Nitrite and Ammonia levels have
spiked through the roof. I did a 20% water change Fri, 50% water change
yesterday, and 50% water change today and levels are still high. I have
decided to stop the copper and just focus on getting the water to
normal. I added PolyFilter... <Good> ... and added a
new filter cartridge in the Emperor 280. Question is, what happened to
this poor fish? Does copper kill the bacterial function of the filter?
<Yes, especially at the .25 level I see below> I am
desperate and just don't know what is wrong with him, or how to
help. Please advise. The directions on the bottle are not clear, and
the copper test kit always read over .25 of copper in the tank, even
after water changes. <Copper is an effective method of killing
diseases if used properly and with care. For angels, the copper level
shouldn't exceed .15, .25 is dangerous. Are you using an ionic
copper or chelated, or which brand/type are you using?> Was the
treatment done in quarantine in a rock/substrate free tank? Also,
since I was reading your site last night, I have a question for my main
65 gal tank. I have 75 lbs live rock, Fluval 404 with carbon and
bio-material, Emperor 400 bio-wheel, and a Prism skimmer. Should remove
the bio-filter material from the Fluval 404? Is this adding nitrates?
<I don't believe you have enough live rock to remove the bio
material. Yes the rings can increase nitrate slightly.> Also
the Fluval is adding tons of tiny bubbles in the tank, I was thinking
of replacing it with a Eheim Wet/Dry canister filter. Is this a good
choice? <There are better ways for less $. Even though the
Prizm is rated for a tank your size, it is not that efficient to handle
it. I use one myself on my 29 mini reef. Just great for that.>
If it is, I should not use the bio- material for that as well since I
have live rock - right? < If it were me, I would seriously think
about adding a hang-on refugium with a live sand base and add some
Caulerpa. This will help control the nitrates and nuisance algae. You
will need to buy a small PC fixture to place over the refugium. CPR is
coming out with their hang-on that includes a built-in skimmer. This
would add to the skimming efficiency of your system.> Question 3 -
sorry - full of uncertainty today. I will do a freshwater dip with
Meth. Blue for each new fish from now on BUT - the directions say to
leave the fish only in the dip 10 seconds. I have read that the fish
should be there 3 to 5 MINUTES. Which one is correct? And to be safe,
it is good to dip when moving from the QT to the main tank just as an
extra precaution? What is the correct concentration of blue to
use? <I'd follow info on the bottle. Here is a link
on disease prevention that has info on FW dipping. http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ichart2mar.htm.
James (Salty Dog)>
Coral Beauty/Copper Follow-up, Doesn't Look
Good.. Thanks for quick reply. Sorry to say, Coral Beauty basically
dead. On it's side breathing very hard, I added water, and some of
the bio-material from my main tank to QT tank, but afraid it is too
late. Yes the QT is rock and substrate free (well there is a
teeny bit on the bottom since I removed existing substrate before
treatment.) I used 7ml of CopperSafe for 10 gal tank, per directions. I
feel terrible, I just killed this innocent fish. I really want to be
sure this does not happen again. Directions said to leave in the copper
filter, was that a good idea? <Ceri, usually when a fish gets
that bad, copper will just finish it off. It' very important to
treat right at the onset of the disease. If the directions say to leave
the carbon in place, then that's what I'd do. Sorry. James
(Salty Dog)>
Sneak attack? Ich on fishes I acquired a
Blue Line angel about two months ago and things had been going well
until three or four days ago when he started to breath rapidly, the
only external signs of anything afoul were ich like spots on his eyes.
I promptly gave him a fresh water dip w/formalin totaling 5-8min.
<a good move IMO> and upon removal his respiration rate easily
doubled. <Immediately after, yes... but minutes/hours later it
should be stable or better if dip was done properly (pH adjusted, water
aerated before being used... scary close match with tank temp, etc)>
At that point I thought it best to just keep an eye on him which made
for a long evening, some 4-5hrs later his breathing slowed down but not
to a normal rate. <Ahhh... yes, good. As it should be> The
following day I gave him another dip exchanging the formalin
with Methylene blue and putting him in a Q-tank with copper and
antibiotics. <Yikes... I was with you on the repeat dip (needed) and
the Methylene blue (increases O2)... but you lost me on the copper.
Angels are very (!) copper sensitive.> He had been eating up until
two hours before I put him to sleep, he finally started to list over on
the bottom. I had to have my wife put him down for me and explain to my
little one why we perform euthanasia. It tore my heart out to see him
slowly suffocate, today, we'll be burying him per my daughters
wishes. My original point of this correspondence, it's been my
experience that ich doesn't kill that quickly, does it? <You are
very correct. Most folks think takes a few days... but even that is not
true. It establishes a week or more in advance (usually 2+weeks) and is
expressed very subtly at first as the closing of one operculum or
occasional scratches or glances off rock long before any
"spots" appear> I forgot to mention that he had a
1/4" bump on his side that didn't break the skin nor raise the
scales, its cycle was about five days and went away on its own with no
intervention. Do you have any thoughts? <The bump on the side also
was not fatal and quite likely secondary. I can't be sure with
certainty what the cause of death was... but prolonged siege by the
parasites unnoticed contributed... the Os o the display may be
depressed and amplified it... the copper treatment may have been the
killing blow on an already stressed fish. Formalin is very
"safe" on a wide range of fishes... Methylene blue is good
for most (except scale less fishes) ... and copper has severe
limitations IMO (efficacy and range of tolerant species). Formalin and
FW dips always get my vote. Sorry for your loss my friend. Best
regards, Anthony>
Striking Back At Ich! My marine tank was set
up about 3 months ago. It is my first crack at it. I have a 55 gallon
with a wet/dry trickle filter and a protein skimmer. The tank contains
only a few small damsels, a yellow tang, and an angel, with 4 small
hermit crabs. About a week ago, most of the fish started showing white
spots. I'm not sure if it's ich, but I suspect it is. A local
pet shop advised to treat with formalin, which I started doing. I have
treated every other day for 6 days for a total of 3 doses so far.
Initially, the fish seemed to be doing better, but now the angel seems
to be in bad shape. He is sluggish, listing to one side. And spots are
now showing again on the blue devils. <Could be a response to the
medication...Centropyge Angels don't always do well with
medications, copper, Formalin, etc. He may simply need a
"break" from he medication> Unfortunately, I do not have
the capacity to set up a QT, so I'm treating the main tank. Is
there anything else I can do? Should I try fresh water dips, and if so,
how often? <If you're going this route, try freshwater dips, try
them once a day for about 4-5 days...> Should I lower the salinity
and raise the temperature? Right now the salinity is at 1.022 ppm, and
water temp. is at 77 degrees. Should I do water changes , and if so,
how often? <Frankly, I'd set up a Rubbermaid container as a
hospital tank, remove all of the fishes into this container, and let
the system run "fallow", without fishes, for about a month.
Meanwhile you could expose the fishes to lowered specific gravity or
other treatments...You'll have a greater degree of success if you
treat outside of the display, and the causative ich parasite population
will crash for lack of hosts. I don't believe in continuously
bombarding fishes with medication (particularly if you have a fish
that's not taking the medication well, like your Flame Angel), so
you may want to give the fishes a bit of a "break" from the
medications in the "hospital" facility, and then resuming
treatments as needed...> Please help. My kids are frantic that they
will lose their pets.......Thanks. <Hang in there...Be sure to use
effective medications/techniques, and utilize the "fallow
tank" technique, and you can pull all of these fishes through.
Good luck! Regards, Scott F>
More Issues With Ich >Hi! >>Hello!
>Long time reader, infrequent question asker. Really
enjoy the information provided on the page, I consider it one of my #1
resources. I have a 60 gallon tank, I purchased a flame
angel and introduced the specimen into the tank (I don't have a
Quarantine tank as such, I inherited the larger tank). >>You know
what we're going to say, right? And, as a longtime
reader, you also know that quarantine doesn't need to be done in a
proper aquarium. But now it's moot, let's continue.
>The fish looked grand in the store, however, 3 days after
introduction the fish developed Ich. I have never had ich in
my tank before, or any disease for that matter but it had to happen
sometime, ya know, with my reckless abandon and all... *ahem*
>>AHEM! >Anyways, I have the tank running under a
hyposalinity treatment, I have also been feeding garlic, doing bi-daily
water changes (10 - 15%). The fish no longer shows signs of
ich, but I imagine that is just because the trophonts have fallen
off. I have been doing a gravel siphoning with every other
water change and have been moving ornaments around here and there to
vacuum under them. None of the other fish (yellow tang,
maroon clown, Heniochus Bannerfish) are showing signs of the disease
and they all seem to be taking the hyposalinity treatment well.
>>Good. >Here's the question portions... Is there anything
else I should be doing (besides quarantine) to my tank to ensure the
disease doesn't spread anymore? I don't relish the
idea of treating the tank with copper as Centropyge loricula is known
to be somewhat copper sensitive, and formalin treatments are fairly
hard to find in most of the shops in my city. >>Well, if
you're automatically factoring those treatments out, then the only
thing I can tell you is the set up a q/t, freshwater dip all fish
before you put them in it, and let that display lie fallow for 6-8
weeks. The garlic has only been proven to have some
antibacterial effects, and there is anecdotal evidence that it seems to
stimulate feeding response. >Also, my tank is equipped with an
underground filter powered by two Powerhead 802's, the post
powerful ones of the AquaClear label, it sucks down food instantly
which prompts me to turn the pumps off during feeding, is it possible
that the suction from the gravel bed will keep the encysted ich babies
on the bottom of the tank and break their life cycle by not making them
able to attach to a host? Far fetched maybe, but is it possible?
>>Yes, VERY far fetched, not at all likely that they'd be
entirely "trapped" within the confines of the U.G.. >I
will keep it at the current gravity (1.012) for about a month and see
what happens, is it a safe attitude to have that assuming after 5 weeks
of treatments and there are no reoccurrences or ill effects of the fish
due to hyposalinity that I can consider the problem
finished? Should I be considering a more aggressive
treatment for the problem? I'd appreciate any advice you
might have. -Bj Rampton >>Hyposalinity would be better at 1.010,
sometimes even as low as 1.007. Always consider more
aggressive treatment, since you can't get the formalin in town,
order some (cuz we can tell you're online ;) ) and have it on
hand. Remember, you have to be careful with this stuff as
well as with copper. (My own experience with flames
doesn't show them to be exceedingly sensitive to copper treatments,
but formalin will certainly work as well if it comes to
that). The big thing is that to eliminate the possibility of
reinfection you'll need to let that display lie
fallow. Search for Terry Bartelme's articles on ich,
too, he's written much about this parasite. I would go
with 6-8 weeks with no ich observed before I felt it was no longer an
issue. Marina
That Pesky Ich Again Hi guys <Scott F. here
for you> I was away for a few days (my daughter fed the fish) and
when I got back a Scribble Angel, Heniochus, and a hippo were affected
with Ich. I can't figure out why I had the outbreak (water quality
is great, I use a chiller so temp variation is not a factor and I
quarantine new additions for what might be too short a period of 2
weeks). <Yep- a possibility- always use at least a 3 week-or longer
quarantine period!> I have treated the fish only main tank (since
the QT is only 10 gallons) with a .15 concentration of copper for 18
days already. The Scribble can't seem to shake the Ich.
<Yikes! In the future, please treat all sick fish in a quarantine
tank! Copper is extremely tough to get rid of in your main system.
Plus, as you are finding, copper can bind with substrate and rocks,
diminishing it's concentration/effectiveness! Since you have larger
specimens, please do find a larger tank for treatment, a 20 gal or so
would work> I have not as yet tried Fresh Water Dips figuring that
the copper would take care of the situation <not at 15, should
be .25, and that may be another factor in its ineffectiveness.>
Is it common for Ich to survive in copper treated water for this
long and should I continue treatment or will it jeopardize the health
of the other fish. I intend to isolate only the Scribble tonight and
continue copper treatment. <good idea, but try freshwater dips
first. Give him a break from copper for a few days, then start a proper
therapeutic dose in the QT tank. Test to make sure copper level is
proper, per manufacturer's instructions> Should I continue the
copper in the display tank as well and if so for how long. <Once
again, I'd cease using copper in the main tank. Remove all affected
fish into the quarantine tank for treatment. Employ PolyFilter medium
in the main system to help remove copper. The main system should sit
fallow (without fish) for a month or more to let the parasite
population diminish. Continue water changes/maintenance during this
period.> Thanks as always. I anxiously await your response, Joe
<Make the above changes to your treatment techniques, and things
should work out fine! Good luck!>
Butterflies Aren't Free
Mornin fellas... <Hey there- Scott F. here!> Am getting a tad
frustrated with my saltwater tank. 90gallon, live sand, huge canister
filter, etc.. Creatures: 2 small clowns, shrimp goby,
mandarin goby, small little boxfish, pistol shrimp, coral
banded shrimp, cleaner shrimp - yep, he still hasn't become a
cocktail for my CBS, 2 emerald crabs, 45 hermit crabs, 25 snails, had 3
butterfly Aurigas. Everyone is doing just peachy except for my Auriga
Butterflies. I have read on your site that they are pretty
hardy fish that are easy to keep. <They certainly has the reputation
of being one of the hardiest butterflies for aquariums> Anyhow, I
introduced 3 butterflies together 3 weeks ago. I introduced
them appropriately to my tank but did not quarantine them ~ yaya, I
know, I just bought a doctor/quarantine tank and will quarantine all
new creatures from now on. <Good! You spared yourself from the
lecture... :) > One of them died overnight while the
other two were fine. I then replaced the butterfly with
another Auriga. All 3 were doing well for a week or so, when
one day I noticed what appeared to be a criss-cross laceration on the
side of one of the butterflies. He survived a couple of days
and then died. The other two were doing fine... 4
days after the death of the aforementioned, I noticed
another butterfly sitting upright, but at an angle at the bottom of the
tank. He had a small laceration in the bottom of the middle
of his side. Called Big Al's to ask what was up with the
Butterflies they were giving me. Before I even mentioned
their behaviors to the guy at Big Al's, he told me that the
Butterflies were probably scraping themselves against my liverock
because of an itch and that that was the likely cause of their
lacerations. <A possibility, for sure...but what's the cause of
the "itch"...?> He didn't think anything in my tank
would go after the largest of my fishes (the
Auriga's). Ya, my butterflies and only my butterflies
over the past two/three weeks had been swimming slowly up to a rock and
then quickly slamming their bodies against the rock. Their
is perhaps tiny little bubbled skin marks behind the gills... not sure
if it is a bacteria or if it is just the fishes appearance. <Nope-
not part of their appearance...under normal circumstances> So, I
bought a 20gallon hospital/quarantine tank and used my main tank's
water. Water seems to be ok and now my last two butterflies
are in the tank. I bought "REEF SAFE KICK-ICH" to
treat it. <IMO, this stuff is better used as salad dressing than a
fish "medication"...and please don't use it in your main
tank! It's really a "pepper sauce", intended to make the
fish slough off body slime in the hope that the parasites go with
it...Also- are you sure that ich is what you are dealing with? Please
verify the illness (assuming it is an illness, not just an injury)
before using any medication. Sometimes, administering the wrong
medication can be worse than not medicating a fish at all.> This
morning, my butterfly with the small laceration on the bottom middle of
his side is laying on my hospital tank bottom. It looks like
he has a newly developed sore on his dorsal fin (it's a little
reddish). He can't swim upright but seems to
have a lot of energy. I left him there while I go to
work. I expect him to be dead when I return from work
leaving me one butterfly with no lacerations (but the guy still seems
to rub against rocks as I described above). So... questions: a) do you
think it is the 'ICK' causing them to rub against the
rocks...thus causing the lacerations?? <A possibility- ich
definitely can cause fish to scratch> b) is this REEF SAFE KICK-ICH
a good treatment??? <Umm...I don't really have anything nice to
say about this stuff...> c) are butterflies really easy to keep??
<IMO, not really! Butterflies need very stable water chemistry, lots
of space (Aurigas can reach almost 10 inches!), high oxygen content,
brisk circulation, and an established aquarium. They are usually the
first fish to decline if your water quality falls off. Aurigas and Long
Nosed butterflies are considered the easiest to keep of a rather touchy
group> d) any idea why I have had such bad luck with JUST my
butterflies?? All other creatures are happy campers. <As
above...The species we're discussing are not "difficult",
but I would not classify them as "easy", either!> Is their
anything I haven't done that I should be doing??? May I
have overlooked something?? Please help...Dave <Well,
Dave-Quarantine, of course, is the best thing that you can do. Apart
from that, selecting good, healthy specimens is very important...These
fishes don't always ship well, and can "break down", as
Bob likes to say, quite easily...These fishes need lots of space, too-a
very important and often overlooked factor in the husbandry of these
(and many other) fishes, IMO. Don't be discouraged by this
experience. Do review all water parameters, recheck your husbandry
procedures (i.e.; water changes, feeding, skimming, etc.), study your
future purchases very carefully, and choose healthy specimens that are
eating at the store. Go for it. but do read all you can and be prepared
for a better run at it this time! You can do it! Good
luck! Scott F.>
Ich I have another question for you.
<<Shoot...>> This one regarding ich. If I were
to quarantine all my fish, and treat medications, which would be the
safest considering I have a Coral Beauty and Flame Angel?
<<Copper, but you could also start with just a pH adjusted
freshwater dip.>> Also in allowing the tank to go
"fallow" for a month, do you recommend using the same bare
bottom tank for treatment, <<Yes.>> do I need
to provide some sort of hiding places for them? <<I would,
you can use pieces of PVC pipe and/or large fittings for them to hide
in. The PVC will not absorb or react with any of the things you might
treat with. Cheers, J -- >>
Ick (Aaargh!!!!) Hello- <Cheers, Anthony
Calfo in your service> I've got some kind of parasitic
infestation in my 125 Gal. fish and live rock tank (no corals). I see
white salt spots on bodies and fins and some fish are scratching
(Majestic Angel, Cuban Hog, Harlequin Tusk). <large like
grains of salt would indicate common Ich (crypt.) whereas fine like
talc would suggest marine velvet (Oodinium)> There is no respiratory
distress or loss of appetite. The only fish that don't have spots
are three that have been in this tank for 4 yrs- a Foxface, a red flame
hawk, and a long nose hawk- <yes... common for fish that have
suffered this parasite before...some immunity> plus a recently added
algae blenny. <not yet at least> First, I removed the live rock
to a trash can with aerator, dropped SG to 1.017, raised temp to 82
degrees. <to be done gradually over days for fear of
mitigating the condition> Then, I lowered the SG in the 125 gal to
1.014 from 1.022 all at once, <not recommended although I have
done it before and will do it again <G>> and I am gradually
-over several days time -raising the temp from 76 deg to 82. <OK>
I dropped SG on Monday. It's now Friday. All of the fish seem to be
tolerating low SG. All are eating and moving around the tank except for
a yellow banded maroon clown. The clown has been hanging out in a cave
under a rock but did come out to feed last night. <no worries... let
her pout, they are hardy> The low SG appears to be working (spots
are disappearing). I'm most concerned about the angels- the flame
has cloudy eyes that are a bit popped, <do add 1 tablespoon of Epsom
salt per 5 gallons (split dose over a day or do in installments and
dissolve in seawater first)... this is aimed to relieve the
exophthalmia (Popeye)> and head shaking behavior, and the Majestic
looks great but also has head shaking. Also last week the majestic
excreted a long stringy mess. Didn't look good. <you have
indicated three different things... a possible bacterial infection
(Popeye), spots and head shaking (Ich) and now stringy white feces
(internal parasites perhaps> Stephen Spotte lists head shaking as
one of the clinical signs of Amyloodinium disease. <it is a
VERY general symptom of gill irritation which could be from Ich,
Oodinium, gill flukes, nitrogen poisoning and so many other things>
Spotte says that Amyloodinium is persistent and fishes can never
recover totally, and there will be another out break at a later
time. <only true in the sense that we are al carrying
potentially pathogenic organisms at all times that can be expressed
with stress. Your chances of getting or keeping a sterile fish or even
Oodinium free are as unrealistic as your own digestive tract being
sterile or so-called "disease free". Have no fears. Good
husbandry will carry fish many years! (Nancy aquarium in France, case
in point: numerous fishes over twenty and even 30 years old!!! (incl
Perc clowns) with basic sponge filtration. If you keep and use a
quarantine tank ( I suspect you didn't for these new fish which is
why you have an outbreak in part) you'll find that you can easily
temper the impact of such pathogens. Not cure forever... but easily
temper. It is standard and necessary protocol for responsible aquarium
keeping> His advice is to destroy everything, sterilize the tank and
start over. I'm not going to do that. <keep in mind that
you are citing a reference that is likely over 15 years old
(copyright). Perhaps more. Spotte is a great scientist... but times and
knowledge have evolved!> I've read that Cryptocaryon disease is
not a as deadly. <agreed> Does Cryptocaryon also infect the
gills and cause head shaking? <yes> Spotte lists respiratory
distress as a clinical sign of Crypto but not head shaking.
<again... cannot be taken so literally... simply gill distress> I
have never used copper even though I have a bottle of Cupramine- I keep
reading the directions and reading Spotte, Moe, Tullock, and Fenner (of
course). If I use the copper I will use it in the exhibit aquarium,
pull it out with PolyFilters after treatment, discard the dead coral
rock decor, and return the live rock to the main tank. < I
would advise you to simply use a proper QT tank and let the tank simply
run fallow for the QT duration (4 weeks)> I will not use a separate
treatment tank. (The exhibit aquarium is in my restaurant and I want to
keep the fish in it.) <then it will be done at the increased
risk of their mortality. I do not fault you for it... they are your
charges/responsibility. But know that you are taking the long way
around the barn! Medicating a tank with calcareous substrate that will
absorb copper like a sponge means that you will be dosing and testing
for copper levels at least twice a day each for about 21 days. Not at
all practical> OR I may pull the angels out of the exhibit tank,
place them in quarantine, and possibly treat only the angels with
copper. <yes, my friend... this would be better> But I would
prefer to continue with the low SG and after 6 days raise the SG to
.017 and hold it there for another week, and then raise it to .021,
hold the live rock in the trashcan for 6 weeks and then put it back in
the exhibit tank. <all good ideas... I concur> Am I shooting
myself in the foot by not using the copper? <for Crypt I will
agree with copper use. Not much else for copper> The fellow I buy my
fish from says that if I wait too long to use the copper, then the
disease will establish itself in the aquarium and I will always have
problems. <not true> What do you think about that head
shaking? You're probably doing some head shaking yourself right
about now. <heehee... I though the web cam was turned off <G>.
You are a good sport!> Thanks for your help and thanks for putting
together a great website. Sally <I wish you the very best of luck!
Kindly, Anthony Calfo>
Flame Angel - Quarantine Tank and Ich
Hello Crew, I am at a loss of what to do, so here I am to ask a
question. First though tank parameters: Main tank - 55 gal - 60 lbs
live rock - 20 gallon refuge - T1000 skimmer - 1 cleaner shrimp - been
setup for 1 year - 0 NH4, 0 NO2 - 0 NO3, 8.2 PH, 300 Ca, 80 temp, 1.020
salinity (I know calcium is low. But except for the live rock and a few
crabs and snails, no animals in my tank require much calcium. I am not
dosing calcium or alkalinity at this time.) <Ok, sounds fine.>
Quar tank - 20 gal - bare bottom - sponge filter rated for 60gal tank -
power filter rated for 40 gal tank - setup for 6 weeks - NH4, NO2 et
al. explained below - Temp 80F, 1.020 salinity, 8.2 PH Several months
ago my DIY refugium came unglued releasing a cloud of fine sand
throughout my tank. All previously healthy fish survived this silt
storm and the rebuild of the refugium (this time with proper acrylic
solvent), but broke out with ich. A hospital tank was used along with
fresh water dips, but only 2 green chromis survived which were returned
to the LFS. The main tank sat empty except for the cleaner shrimp for 4
weeks. I then set up the hospital tank as a quarantine tank and
cautiously added a flame angel. <Bad idea to use a Flame Angel to
cycle this new tank.> NH4 and NO2 quickly rose in the quarantine
tank despite light feedings and daily 25% water changes from the main
tank. NH4 rose to 0.1 before dropping to 0.25, and NO2 never got below
0.1. The angel died with just 2 days left in its 4 week quarantine. I
waited two weeks until the quarantine tank's NH4, and NO2 dropped
to 0 then purchased a second flame angel. Now 2 days later NH4 is 0.05
and NO2 is up to 0.1 again. The flame angel is sulking in a corner and
not eating. And to add further insult has broken out with ich.
<Everything you have related so far is to be expected, including the
death of the fish.> I have tried feeding Mysis shrimp and flake food
to no avail. I perform water changes 20 minutes after feeding to remove
the uneaten food and change 25% of the water. Any suggestion on what
should be done? <Yes, quit using flame angels to cycle this
tank.> Should I use copper and further destroy the weak biological
filtration? <No, continue the daily water changes and hope for the
best.> Should I put the fish in the main tank contaminating it with
ich, but hopefully providing better water conditions? <Might help,
but you will need to leave this fish in their all by itself for at
least one month, possibly two.> There are no other fish to get
contaminated in the main tank. If the flame does perish in the main
tank I could start the 4 week waiting period before trying to add fish
again. <Correct> Any other suggestions? I fear this fish will
perish soon if action is not taken. <Me too.> Thanks, Michael
Torzewski <You are welcome. -Steven Pro>
Flame Angel - Quarantine Tank and Ich II
Steven, Just a note. I was not attempting to cycle the tank with a
flame angel. The main tank has been cycled for 1 year. The filters on
the quarantine tank have been running on the main tank for 6 months,
and was set up 6 weeks ago. NH4 and NO2 after rising fell back to 0
before the addition of a fish. All water in the quarantine tank came
from the main tank. This is the process outlined by Bob Fenner for
setting up a quarantine tank. <And I agree with the process. I think
the problem was with your application of the process. I am not sure
about what happened when, but it appears you fallowed the tank for 4
weeks and then used those filters to setup the QT tank. That is
probably where your problem came in. Most of the bacteria would have
died off due to an unavailability of food, i.e. ammonia from fish.>
For some reason the bacteria content on these filters even though they
and been in an active tank for some time was very low and not able to
handle the additional fish without falling out of balance. So besides
"not adding a flame angel to cycle a tank" which was never my
attempt at all. Do you have any advice. Do I have a better chance of
saving this fish by continuing water changes and using copper in the
quarantine tank, or placing the fish into main tank contaminating it
with ich but providing better water conditions for the fish. <Daily
water changes can effect a cure for Cryptocaryon. If you are sure that
is what your fish have and the only thing, just do the daily water
changes. I believe the copper would be more harm than good at this
point, though I do not have a lot of faith that this fish will make
it.> Thanks, Michael Torzewski <Good luck. -Steven
Pro>
White spot or ick on my Copperbanded butterfly
Hello, <<And hello to you. JasonC here...>> I was needing
to get information on treating what seems to be marine ick on my
Copperbanded butterfly. It is on one side fin and the tail.
<<Are these fins well salted or just a few spots? If not
more than I few spots I probably wouldn't be concerned, I would
just keep up the observation.>> No other fish is infected.
I have coral and invertebrate in my tank. <<Do you have a
cleaner shrimp or neon goby?>> Is there something that I
can use that won't hurt my coral and inverts? What do you suggest!
Daniel <<Well, in all but the most extreme cases, I try to leave
the medications in the bottle and instead either let nature take its
course or add more nature, meaning biological cleaners. Problem
parasites like ich and the like are present in tank water almost 100%
of the time, and usually a healthy fish can deal with a parasite or
two... it's when parasite numbers grow to epidemic proportions that
things get weird. Cleaner shrimp and neon gobies can help keep these
parasites in check. Here's some reading for you:
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/marine/inverts/arthropoda/shrimp/cleaner.htm
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/neongobies.htm
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/mardisease.htm Cheers, J --
>>
Re: white spot or ick on my Copperbanded
butterfly Hello Jason, <<And hello to you, Sir.>>
The Butterfly has only about 2-3 spots on fin and 2-3 spots on tail. I
have 2 cleaner shrimp, but no goby. Thanks, Daniel <<Sounds
good to me, I wouldn't worry much about those spots. Do keep the
fish under observation, look for scratching behaviors, to make sure
things aren't growing out of proportion. No worries yet. Cheers, J
-- >>
Quarantine Tank Bob, Hope all is well. I have
a 90 gallon system with probably about 75 gallon sump. I filter this
system mainly with algae scrubbing and protein skimming. Not to mention
about 150 lbs of live rock. My fish (5" Golden Butterfly, 2"
Tinker Butterfly and 4" Juvenile Emperor Angel) have ich. They
have been in tank for probably 10 months and have always eaten very
aggressively. They have from time to time had a dusting of ich but
always fought off with no problem. I always watched how they ate
closely and never saw a problem. The system was running so well with
minimal effort that it lead to daily feeding and off to work or kids
ball games. The Golden stopped eating yesterday so I immediately set up
my quarantine tank and put him in today. My intentions are to put all
three in and go fallow, (and give system a good cleaning with water
changes). <Sounds like a good plan.> The Golden was my immediate
concern because he was only fish to stop eating. He was very easy to
catch that trusting soul. I have a twenty gallon quarantine tank and
dividers. My question is, do you think I need another Q tank or will
twenty be OK if I watch Ammonia real close and keep fish separate?
<Seems kind of cramped to me, about a 8" x 12" x 16"
area for each. You maybe able to get away with it. I would feel better
if you had a 30, though.> I do have Red Sea Skimmer on Q tank,
heater and plan on doing partials every couple of days. <Sounds
good, but no biological?> Also, should I set up a Penguin filter
jammed with some bio balls for some biological filtration? <Yes>
I usually don't worry about biological filtration because of copper
(I use Cupramine). <There are other options besides copper; daily
water changes, freshwater dips, etc.> But I do plan on extended Q
tank stay 6-8 weeks and will hopefully only use copper for two weeks. I
have sought your advice in past and it has always paid off. Overall at
this point the fish are very healthy. Any other advice surely
appreciated. Thank you in advance, David Stanley <Overall, your plan
sounds ok. -Steven Pro>
ICH PROBLEM and water temperature Dear Bob,
<Anthony Calfo in your service> I've got a big problem here
as I have lost some of my beautiful large angels. The temperature of my
200G FOWLR tank is about 79F to 82F <does it fluctuate this
much or more daily? If so it is contributing to the Ich problem...
temperature drops are proven to flare Ich.> and I've noticed
that every early morning, most of the angels have numerous white spots
on their bodies < a sign of Cryptocaryon (Ich)... not Oodinium
(Velvet Ich)> and they would perish after 3 to 5 days. I managed to
catch some of the angels and dipped them in freshwater for a few
minutes but it seems to send them to the nether worlds a bit faster. My
Sohal tang seemed unaffected. Massive water change was done a few days
back but the problems recurred. <were these fish quarantined for 2-4
weeks before entering the display. You really should if not. Saves
money and lives> Could the cold morning temperature be the
problem? <yes... any temp drop (by the book) of more than 2F
can cause Ich to flare> My LFS has been trying to convince me on
acquiring a UV system. <buy a cheap hospital tank instead and
invest in a second/better heater for the main display> What are your
recommendations as it pains me to have my fishes die after keeping them
for almost 3 years. Thanks in advance. <much agreed my friend. No
worries, easy to correct problems here. Anthony
Calfo>
Re: Ich Treatment I just purchased a 15 gallon
tank to use as a Q-tank, not setup yet. I need to place my two cleaner
shrimps in this tank, during the ich treatment. The spg level will be
brought down to 1.017 or even as low as 1.010 and temp to 80 to 82 in
the main tank. I have 1-purple tang, 1-naso tang, 1-emperor angel and
1-raccoon butterfly. The raccoon is of my concern, will he handle a spg
level down to 1.010? <Should... for at least the term of the
treatment (a couple of weeks)> These fish are all in good condition,
if it were not for this ich problem. Anyway, I thought maybe I could
get by not using my tank water. I will transfer some live rock and
water from the ich-tank, ASAP. <New water can be used for
changes there... but do pre-make and store it... Please read:
http://wetwebmedia.com/water4maruse.htm> One final question, will I
need to dip the shrimp before I return them back to the display tank,
after coming out of the Q-tank with ich water? <No dipping
necessary or desirable.> Sorry to confuse you as I am not a writer.
<No confusion, "the medium is the message"... you are
being perfectly clear. Bob Fenner>
Ongoing Ich My current reef
tank is doing well except for the introduction of fish. Almost every
new fish I put in the system either succumb to ich or suddenly
disappear. The big ones such as tangs, angels, and butterflies got ich
whereas the small damsels and chromis vanish within 24 hours even
though they appear healthy the day before. All parameters check out
perfectly and the inverts (corals, anemones, and shrimp) are
prospering. I had a hippo tang that contracted ich 4 months ago. Could
this still be in the water and if so, how do I get rid of it?
<<Wow... well, there is/are some mischief maker(s) in your
system... likely a Mantis Shrimp (order Stomatopoda), that you want to
get rid of... by baiting it out near night time/lights out with some
meaty chunk of food near the front corner... ready with a flashlight
and net... or better, by conditioning the rogue fish eater with the
same sort of meaty food (once again right after turning off the
lights), then placing the same bait in a "live mouse trap"
(aka Mantis Shrimp trap...)... get rid of this critter before buying
any more small fishes/food for it. The entrenched ich problem... yes,
it is IN YOUR SYSTEM... a few ways to approach this... If it were me,
I'd take all the fishes out, treat them in a separate system... and
freshwater dip (pH adjusted) on the way there and on the way back (in a
month or two...)... The main tank, I'd dump out, fill with straight
freshwater... for a day or two, refill then with lower the specific
gravity (1.010) for a week, then raise it back to normal... raise the
temperature to 84F. in an attempt to speed up, get rid of the ich
parasites in various life stages in your system (Lower it back down
before returning fish livestock)... and before returning your fish
livestock... place some biological Cleaners to help ward off any
residuals... give comfort to your fish livestock. Yes, this process is
going to whip your live rock organisms... not totally though, and Yes,
get rid of that Mantis Shrimp (or giant worm, Pistol Shrimps...) in
addition to the work on ridding the ich...And, of course, henceforth,
dip, quarantine all incoming fish livestock... to exclude these
external parasite problems getting into your system in the first place.
Bob Fenner, who encourages you to read to your satisfaction, the pieces
on "dips/baths", "quarantine", "acclimation
techniques", "Cryptocaryoniasis/ich",
"shrimp", "treatment systems"... posted on the URL:
www.wetwebmedia.com
>
Help crypto that will not go!
I have a 120 gallon fish only marine tank with a wet dry system,
protein skimmer, and U.V sterilizer. I have wrasses, angels, and tangs.
Recently, I have had a Cryptocaryon outbreak after adding new fish, I
have never had a problem before treating with copper. This time it has
been a very stubborn case. My copper level has been at .25 for over 2
weeks, I have also lowered the salinity to 1.016 four days ago to try
to help. The powder blue tang and the Personifer angel seems to be the
most susceptible, the other fish just have a few spots every few days.
The spots will go away then return a couple of days later (all of this
during the treatment). What do you recommend to clear this thing up? I
have been using reagent grade marine copper, are there other products
or is this copper faulty? Please help, I am frustrated! Thanks, Durell
Tharpe <<You mention having a UV... you're not running
this at the same time as the copper I hope? At this point, with the
Cryptocaryon being entrenched in your system... I would continue to
treat the fishes there... but with a more stable format (like
Cupramine) of copper... with daily testing of free copper levels...
You're sure you've had 0.25ppm all this time? Very strange...
and the copper you're using is CuSO4 . 5H2O? (copper sulfate
pentahydrate... probably)... did you citrate it? (acidify the solution
with citric acid) or use other adjuncts? I don't think you've
had a physiological dose in your system the last two weeks...Bob
Fenner>>
Re: Help crypto that will not
go! The copper I am using states Copper Sulfate and citric acid in
distilled water for the contents and I have been running the U.V
sterilizer the whole time and checking the copper level daily. It reads
.25 every time. I don't know what to do. I have used this copper
before in controlling outbreaks and it always worked. Why should I not
be running the U.V? And if Cupramine is a better option, how should I
go about changing the treatment now? Thanks Again, Durell Tharpe
<<The UV will remove many formats of copper... but 0.25ppm is
right in there... sort of surprising to me (and you I suppose) that the
Cryptocaryon is not gone then... Please have someone check your copper
levels against their kit... and your copper solution.... it isn't
precipitating on the bottom of its storage container is it?... I would
give the current copper a rest (maybe let it go a week, and then start
up with another brand... like the Cupramine (it can be added on top...
as long as the total free copper is not excessive. And elevate the
system temperature to 83-84 F...Bob Fenner>>
Re: Help crypto that will not
go! Thanks for your advice. I did a water change, bought new copper
and lowered the salinity more. I lowered it to 1.011. I was going to
leave the salt level there for about a week, do you think this will be
harmful or not? Is it truly helpful (as many collectors advise to do
this)? What effects does this have on the fish and the parasites? Many
thanks, Durell Tharpe <The lowered spg? The fishes adjust if
they're in good shape to start with, the parasites "pop"
due to inability to cope with change in osmotic pressure. Bob
Fenner>
Angelfish With Ich Dear Bob,
<Scott F. here tonight> I purchased a 3.5" juvenile Queen
Angelfish about a week ago. He has developed what appears to
be Marine Ich after a few days of being harassed by a slightly larger
tank mate; a Yellow Tang. The main tank is a 75-gallon reef
aquarium stocked with 1-Yellow Tang, 2-Ocellaris Clownfish, 1-Orchid
Dottyback, 3- Damsels live-rock and a number of invertebrates. <I
don't mean to nitpick at a time like this- but do plan on moving
him to larger quarters at some time in the near future. This beautiful
fish will get huge, and will require a very large (200 plus gallons)
tank to live out anything approaching its natural life span. Just
something to consider, okay?> I set up a small hospital tank (6
gallon) four days ago and have him quarantined. <Good move to have a
hospital tank at the ready. In the future, however, do quarantine all
new purchases a minimum of 3 weeks before introducing them into the
main tank. it's a very useful and simple process that can prevent a
lot of grief for you and your animals> Three days ago we gave him a
two-minute fresh water dip followed by a one-hour formalin bath at a
concentration of 1-tsp/five gallons of salt water. The Queen
Angel was then placed in the hospital tank treated with SeaCure Copper
at 0.15 mg/l and we have been monitoring Copper levels with the Fast
Test, test kit. I have elevated the hospital tank
temperature to 83º F and have maintained a specific gravity of
1.0235. <Glad that you took fast action to treat him!> It appears
to the eye that all signs of the disease are gone. However, I would
like to get your recommendation on the duration of treatment and/or
isolation. As I mentioned this is a rather small hospital
tank and I would prefer to get him into the main tank as soon as it is
safe to do so. So far the main tank has not shown signs of
an outbreak. <Please note that the ich parasite enters a free
swimming stage and will seem to disappear after just a few days, often
before re-appearing on your fish again. I believe that you should run a
full 3 week treatment on the fish. If you are concerned about keeping
him in copper for that period of time, regular water changes will
reduce the level gradually. However, I'd follow the
manufacturer's instructions for the brand of medication that
you're using. Be diligent about water changes and maintaining the
proper therapeutic copper level during the treatment period. With
patience and time, he should be just fine. That's the good news.
The bad news is that the ich is probably in your main tank. If it were
me, I'd remove all of the fishes to a quarantine tank (with or
without copper, depending upon whether or not they're showing signs
of the infection. Let the main tank run "fallow" (without
fishes) for a month or so. Continue normal maintenance routines (water
changes, etc.) during this time. This fallow period will deprive the
parasite population of hosts, which will result in the death of most of
them and a huge decrease in the parasite population in your system. Not
a fun process, but truly a necessary one, IMO, if you're going to
achieve a disease-free tank in the future. It's not 100% effective,
but it does increase your odds tremendously. Avoiding having to do
something like this is the #1 reason while we drum into everyone's
heads that quarantine of new fishes before they are placed in the main
tank is so Important.> Thanks in advance for your assistance and I
too would like to add my thanks for the great content you authored in
The Conscientious Marine Aquarist. Best regards, Jeff
Detweiler <I'll certainly pass the "props' on to Bob,
Jeff! And I know that you'll be successful at beating the ich! Keep
reading, learning, and showing patience! You're doing fine, so hang
in there, okay?>
Ich/Fresh water Dips Hi
Bob/Steven, Thanks for your valued advise, it's very much
appreciated. I have another question for you. I have been reading your
Diseases section at WWM concerning Ich and F/W dips. The situation: I
have a 30gal quarantine tank that is currently housing a Bi-color Angel
and Regal Tang. The Regal Tang is showing signs of what looks like ICH
(salt like grains on both sides of it's body). I bought both fish
just a day ago. When I bought him he looked fine. I followed the
acclimation procedures as outlined by FFExpress. This morning I noticed
the Ich on the Tang. Is using Kordon Rid - Ich + okay for the Bicolor
Angel? <The active ingredient in that product is Malachite Green and
Formalin. I am pretty sure the Malachite Green is bad for
Centropyges.> He doesn't show any sign of Ich, but, as he is new
and in the same q-tank as the regal tang I'm thinking he needs Rid
- Ich as a precautionary step. What do you think? <I would begin
with daily water changes first. A 25% daily water change on a QT tank
can effect a cure for Cryptocaryon if done everyday for two weeks.>
I plan on performing the usual other steps as well; water change, raise
the temp slightly, lower salinity to upper teens and a 5 min f/w dip.
<I like the dips, too, but try the daily changes first and then
escalate the treatments if no response is seen.> But please let me
know if you think the Rid Ich + is okay for the Dwarf Angel? Thanks,
Steve Segura of San Jose, CA <Good luck! -Steven Pro>
Emperor Angel and FW dips for
crypt 9/8/05 Dear Bob,
Thanks so much for all of your wonderful
advice over the past couple of months. I have a 180g FO tank
that had crypt introduced into it after I added an emperor angel, yes I
used a QT 4 weeks but unfortunately still had the problem.
I have had a problem ping ponging with
crypt since. I have had no fish die. <A testament to your
active, good care...> I have 3 ich magnet tangs in a 55g QT ( large
Naso, powder blue, purple tang ) they are doing surprisingly well
though they are being treated with copper. Cupramine used to the letter
of instructions. Powder blue initially got HLLE which is now
much better since feeding with Gracilaria for a week. These
guys will eventually be cured. <I admire your resolve>
As for the other guys in the display (
Emperor 6", Majestic 5" , Foxface 5" 2 clown fish
aggression amongst angels has not been a problem) they are
all eating and doing fine. I initially treated the display
with hyposalinity to a SG of 1.009 for 6 weeks which predictably failed
to achieve a cure. Aggressive water changes, good diet etc
have kept the fish alive but tank is infested. I now see the
Emperor is getting some white discoloration at the distal end of his
right pectoral fin. Probably crypt, <... or the result of
hyposalinity, treatment, stress...> but I have seen this type of
thing go away never to return on other fish many times. I am
in the process of preparing a QT's of 55 gallons as well as 29
gallons. Yes That makes 3 QT's in all. Two 55gallon and
one 29 gallon. QT 55 g 1 Cupramine Treated 1 Naso, 1 powder blue, 1
purple tolerating well Aggression amongst the tangs has not been a
problem <Crowding has its benefits at times> Planned QT 2 55 G
Plan to add Majestic, Foxface, damsel 3 clowns ( these guys
appear disease free ) Plan on using
copper added SLOWLY, testing twice daily Planned QT 3 29 g plan on
treating emperor alone I have well cycled large BioWheel filters that I
am planning to use on the new QT's ( used in curing live rock ) I
have read at wet web media that FW dips and daily water changes for and
FW dips for 8 days can effect a cure for crypt. <Some, sometimes>
Is it likely that treating the emperor in the 29 G in this
fashion will achieve a cure ? <Not the route I would take> The
180 gallon will lie fallow for 6-8 weeks. I will introduce and
aquascape 150 lbs of beautifully cured LR as well as cleaner shrimp to
make a new home for the fish that survive. <Good> I will most
likely reintroduce 3-5 large fish and 3-4 small fish ( hopefully the
angels, the Naso, clowns ) Do you think that this is a reasonable plan
of action ? Thanks Jimmy <I would "risk" the use of copper
(likely chelated... maybe the Cupramine product) on the Angel/s... Bob
Fenner>
Re: Emperor Angel and FW dips for
crypt 9/9/05 Bob, Thanks for the
feedback. I am going to QT the angels and start Cupramine at
a very low dose and move up to the recommended level. This
AM both of these fish look great in the Display no visible signs of
disease ( but that is why they call it crypt which is Greek for hidden
) but I know there is still crypt in the tank. <Yes and
yes> I will fatten them up a bit until things are right
for the QT. As an aside. What a difference
a two foot wide tank makes on reducing stress !!! <Ahhh! Perhaps
asking folks to consider how hard it is on them to make a turn in their
car in a too-narrow street...> I think that when I put
fish in QT their biggest stress seems to be the decreased tank width
( front to back ) of the tank until they re-adjust their
swimming pattern when they turn in the water.
My experience with my hobby this summer
has taught me that there are times to act and there are times to
wait. <My friend~! You are gaining/unfolding to
enlightenment> Taking action, though important, at the right time
can be detrimental when it is time to sit fast. Aggressive
tank maintenance and excellent water conditions go a long way to allow
for the fish's immune system to work. Constantly
assessing if treatment is worse than disease is
imperative. Treating in a timely manner when the disease is
worse than the treatment can save fish. Treatment when the
treatment is worse that the disease kills fish. Excellent
fish husbandry oftentimes buys us some time to make this critical
decision. <Ahhhh> Thanks Jimmy <Thank you... for the "Tao
of fish keeping" insights. BobF>
|
Butterflyfishes for Marine
Aquariums
Diversity, Selection & Care
New eBook on Amazon: Available
here
New Print Book on Create Space: Available
here
by Robert (Bob) Fenner |
Angelfishes for Marine Aquariums
Diversity, Selection & Care
New eBook on Amazon: Available
here
New Print Book on Create Space: Available
here
by Robert (Bob) Fenner |
|