LabroidesFAQs

FAQs on Cleaner Wrasses, Genus Labroides 1

Labroides dimidiatus in the Maldives

Cleaner fish/inverts? Mr. Fenner, <Steven Pro, part of the WWM crew, in this evening.> I have two questions for you. One is regarding a cleaner fish/invert for my tank and it's inhabitants. I have a 5" adult emperor angel, 6" Naso tang, 3" threadfin b/f, 3" raccoon b/f, and 2.5" purple tang in my 125g tank. I plan on adding a few more fish, but would like to have something in my tank to clean any parasites from the fish if they have any. I just added the 2 b/f's and the purple tang and so far so good. But I know at anytime in the future, especially when I add more fish, that an outbreak of ich or other parasites could take out some fish or wipe out the whole tank. <Your best bet at preventing the situation you describe is a quarantine tank. Anything else is playing Russian roulette.> I have heard from most people that cleaner wrasse are by far the best at cleaning fish, but due to the fact that they don't readily eat food, they usually don't survive more than a few weeks. <Yes, a terrible, unethical choice.> I also saw on wetwebmedia that cleaner gobies are another option, mainly the neon (Gobiosoma oceanops) goby and that they are easy to take care of. <A better choice, but the use of fish to clean fish parasites in the confines of an aquarium is really a bad idea. If you have an outbreak, guess what, the cleaner FISH gets the fish parasites, too. The cleaner shrimp are a far better choice because they are immune to Ich/Cryptocaryon.> Also cleaner shrimp are supposed to perform parasite cleaning duties on fish as well. <See above.> But the people I have talked to say that cleaner wrasse do a MUCH better job of cleaning the fish than the shrimp do. <They cannot clean very well when they are dead.> Is this true? Does it really matter? Will the cleaner shrimp do a good enough job to keep the fish noticeably healthier than if it were not present in the tank? <I would not rely on cleaner fish or shrimp. The QT is your best bet.> How many cleaner shrimp should I (can I) keep in my 125g tank? <Two would be nice because they would develop into a breeding pair and provide live food.> Can I have 2 cleaners and a fire shrimp, will they get along and not kill each other? <Yes, possible in this size tank. Neither have a reputation for being aggressive to other invertebrates.> How good of a job do neon gobies do at cleaning the fish? <Comparable to the shrimp, but again there are other problems with using a fish to battle fish parasites.> Of the 3 in order which ones work the best at keeping the fish parasite free? <The shrimp then the goby and I would never recommend a cleaner wrasse.> And then my other question is in regard to compatibility of the fish I am planning on adding soon. I would like to add a gold rim tang (japonicus, not powder brown) and a sohal tang as the last two fish and would like your opinion on how it might work out, and what sizes of each would possibly work better. I definitely would add 3-4" specimens and add the sohal last as they can supposedly get really mean. I know they are both Acanthurus tangs, but they are of different shapes and coloration. What do you think the chances of the two getting along and living together if my 125g has enough LR for them? <Pretty slim actually, I would recommend picking just one.> Thank you once again for your time and expertise, it's always a pleasure to get a response from you. Ryan <You are welcome. -Steven Pro>

Cleaners Dear Steven, Thank you for your quick response. I have read Bob's article with much interest, but was hoping you may have more information to expand on the issues he raised. In particular, references indicating the increasing trend in promoting cleaners as biological helpers in marine aquaria, or other articles extolling the use of cleaner wrasse from a very biased view point e.g. Michael Livadas's article in Aquaworld Magazine < http://www.aquaworldnet.com/awmag/> which is copied in many sites on the web. If you can assist me in this I would be very grateful. Yours sincerely, Steve <Sorry, but I do not have any information like you are describing. I would only offer this, look up the few references at the end of Bob's article and try searching through the trade magazines (Tropical Fish Hobbyist, Freshwater And Marine Aquarium Magazine, Aquarium Fish, Practical Fishkeeping are all popular) and some of the other on-line sources like www.reefs.org and www.reefcentral.com. I have never heard of Michael Livada or Aquaworld Magazine. -Steven Pro>

Cleaner Wrasse/Ick Hi, Can cleaner wrasse get, carry and/or transmit ick ? <My opinion and experience point that all fish carry Cryptocaryon and Oodinium at all times and something triggers the parasites to multiply out of control and endanger the fish.> I decided to let my 180 gallon fish tank go fallow for 1 month to rid it of ick. I removed all the fish except a cleaner wrasse that hid in the live rock or sand. Do I need to remove the wrasse? <At this point probably not a problem if your cleaner wrasse has been symptom free for one month. I do have to mention that cleaner wrasses are a truly difficult fish and I would prefer if no one purchased them. They have a awful record of captive care. Cleaner Shrimp are a far better choice. -Steven Pro> Thanks, Chris PS great website !!

Wrasses? Have 2 wrasse-related questions..... picked up a cleaner wrasse about a month ago; after purchasing, have since learned about the choice being a poor one and will not support their sale in the future....in any case, mine has been well, busy, darting about, picking away at everyone, eating brine shrimp, etc.. <resist the brine shrimp.. a very nutritively poor food. Fish can starve to death eating a lot of it (mostly water). Try Pacifica plankton, Mysid shrimp, etc> I noticed, however, that it retreats to a hole in a honeycomb rock every night and doesn't emerge for 10-12 hours at a time. I read that wrasses create some sort of sleeping cocoon and haven't been too worried about it until recently; the past 3 days the little dude hasn't emerged from his hole (though I can see his tail sticking out) and when I tried to shake the rock a bit yesterday to see if he was ok, he slid out, swam around for about 30 seconds, then flopped over a rock and looked drunk, <hmmm... sounds bad> draped over the rock, until about a minute later returning to his sleeping hole. wondering if I should leave him alone in there, (it has been 3 days) or take some action. <if there are no signs of disease... do leave it in peace. Unlikely an acclimating period (more likely it is on its way to becoming a statistic)... but we should not educate or treat without knowing what to treat for> 2nd question in regards to a 6-line wrasse that joined the aquarium about a week ago; has been great, beautiful, busy....however, I notice it swims with it's tail up, almost vertically much of the time...not swimming laboriously, however, just looks weird. (is that even a word..."laboriously?")....anyway, he seems healthy, strong, eating regularly, not sure if it's just the way he is or if it's an indication of upcoming trouble... <strange yes.. but a quirky fish by nature. Keep observing and relax after continued good feeding and behavior otherwise> thanks for all of the Yoda-like fish wisdom. <quite welcome... but I don't have as much hair growing from my ears as Yoda...yet. Anthony>

Cleaner Wrasse Questions/Issues Hi Bob, <<JasonC filling while Bob is away diving.>> I'm a newbie to the hobby (about 3months), having become addicted by way of purchasing a saltwater setup as a present for my fianc? I now find I spend most of my waking hours outside of work reading and planning my existing and future setups. <<welcome to the addiction.>> Up until last week all was going well until I had an outbreak of ich on the Blue Regal Tang. I had no quarantine tank (discovering the importance of this the hard way) so figured damage minimization was the only possibility (lowering salinity & increasing temp). <<ok>> Out of fear of losing all the stock who we have become very attached to (Picasso Trigger 2 inch, Humbug, 2 false peculiar clowns + the Tang), <<ahh, this gave me a chuckle - it's actually "Percula" clown, but peculiar is ok because they are peculiar. ;-) >> I began looking for a Neon Goby or a cleaner shrimp only to discover that none of the shops in Sydney had heard of either, but some recommended using a cleaner wrasse. <<uh oh...>> In desperation I went against your advice and purchased one....... After some initial harassment by the Humbug & Trigger the wrasse went straight to work and cleaned up the Tang in no time. It is now feeding on brine shrimp. I have been told many different stories by many different people. Some say that the wrasse only goes through the motions but doesn't clean ich, some say it only eats ich and then will die of starvation and others that it will eat other food, but die anyway. Questions: Are neon gobies only available in the US? <<hard to imagine this is the case but perhaps. They are supposed to be easy to breed. Perhaps you can procure some and introduce them down under...>> Is there any chance of the wrasse surviving past 6 months? <<I doubt it. The real issue with these is that they "were" servicing a wide chunk of reef and saw - who knows - perhaps several hundred fish in a day to be cleaned. So... good thing that it eats brine, but it's going to need more than that to stay healthy. Odds are against it. But back to the reef - cleaner wrasses are few and far between - think of the hole that is left by the individual now in your tank. The only way to stop collectors from taking them from the reef is to refuse to buy them. Some day the dealers and stores will learn. Perhaps take the following web links to your fish store - maybe they know the neon goby by a different name: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/neongobies.htm >> Regards, Michael. <<Cheers, J -- >>

Disturbing Thread on RC about Cleaner Wrasses Hi Bob, <<Bob is away diving, he'll return 12/7. JasonC here answering the WetWebMedia mail. Bob will be reviewing all this mail I'm sure so he'll get back to you. For the benefit of the WWM readers, I'm going to post the pith of this message on the daily's so that they can post at will. Bob can chime in upon his return.>> I was wondering if you could jump in and comment on a post on Reef Central. I posted that removing cleaner wrasses from the wild has a detrimental effect on the fish that are left behind on the reef. <<Funny, I just answered a question regarding this very issue yesterday. Only alternative to purchase in Sydney, AU.>> Well, the direction the post is taking is that there are no studies or proof that this is destructive, that it is just a myth or hearsay. In fact, one of the posters has linked an article that says it isn't destructive (unfortunately, the link isn't working for me right now). <<I'm sure this opinion is boosted by non-divers - people who've never seen them in person.>> Anyway, I hate to see all these people reading this thread and coming to the conclusion that it is ok to buy cleaner wrasses. <<erk... not good.>> Here is the link Reef Central Post Could you maybe jump in with your expert opinion?? I think it would change the direction of the post and maybe dissuade some reefers from purchasing these animals that are best left on the reef. <<And hopefully Bob will when he returns - hope this it still timely. In the meanwhile, faithful readers... if you frequent RC, please chime in on this.>> Thanks for your effort. Joyce <<You are quite welcome. Will make sure Bob sees this. Cheers, J -- >>

The Post that Started the RC Thread Sorry, I meant to send the link. Here it is: Cleaner Wrasse Controversy <<Thanks a lot, will post this along with your original message for all to see, respond. Cheers, J -- >>

Wrasses Dear Bob Fenner, <Steven Pro this morning. I am part of the WWM crew and filling in for Bob as he is off in Australia.> I am researching the use of cleaner wrasse in marine aquaria and the possible effects that their collection from coral reefs may have on the reef fish ecology. I am currently writing a peer review paper on this subject and am interested in anecdotal evidence of their cleaning and parasite removal behaviour in captivity in addition to their survival rate and any problems associated with keeping them. I would be very grateful if you could send me any information you have on the cleaner wrasse Labroides dimidiatus or any links to aquarium dealers who promote their use so that I can incorporate this into my research. Thank you in advance for your assistance, and I look forward to hearing from you soon. <You can read Bob's piece on these fish at this link http://www.wetwebmedia.com/labroide.htm > Kind regards, Steve Box <Good luck! Send us a copy of your paper when it is finished. -Steven Pro>

Labroides in Hawai'i, our tanks Lastly, I would like to inform you of an interchange that was inspired by your book. <Okay> At 2:25 PM -0800 2/11/02, R.B. Jones wrote: >I am writing to inform you that although your business has been >highly recommended on the rec.aquaria.marine.reefs newsgroup, I >cannot bring myself to do business with you in light of your >offering of the Golden Cleaner Wrasse, Hawaii - Labroides >phthirophagus also known as: Cleaner Royal, Hawaiian Cleaner Wrasse. >The removal of any of the Labroides has far too great an impact on >their natural environments. >Last time I checked, the collection of Labroides phthirophagus >specifically has been banned since 1996. >Until your practice of offering these fish to unknowing hobbyists >ceases, I will do my best to discourage fellow conscientious >aquarists to support your enterprise. At 1:56 PM -0800 2/11/02, MarineDepotLive wrote: >We are sorry to hear about that. May you send us some literature on >this please? We do not support any removal of species that may be >hazardous to >the environment. >Currently, as far I know, we have not sent out any of these. At 6:58 PM -0800 2/11/02, R.B. Jones wrote: >http://www.wetwebmedia.com/labroide.htm >please note the bibliography at the bottom of the link (I never could find any specific reference to the collection ban that is mentioned on page 282.) I haven't heard back from them since, but the fish is still offered on their site (http://store.yahoo.com/marinedepotlive/793894.html). I can't remember if it carried their proprietary "restricted species" classification when I first ran across it there. I thought it might be helpful to bring this to your attention. <Thank you. Turns out the DNR of Hawai'i doesn't currently ban the collection of this labrid. My opinion stands however; that it should not be removed from the wild. L. dimidiatus is in much greater abundance, and worth "experimenting" on for those so inclined. Will send your note off to: Ken Wong at Marine Depot, the WWM Crew to get cracking on devising the separate Pond Index/Site, publisher James Lawrence of now Microcosm/TFH, myself to make copious notes... Thank you again. Bob Fenner>

Re: link permission (but wait, there's more!) Sankyu. ><Note: ... make "policy stmt" re use of materials for homepage...> "EGG-cellent...Bob. Can I call you 'Bob?'" <Certainly... after all, it is my name> And a very quick response, I might add! >don't know if/that Jules or Mike have such sites. Will send along >your query and add theirs as links if so> Arigato. <Don't touch my mustache, dotashi mashiite> >That, and a photo of a six-line wrasse would have been nice too. : > ) ><Please see here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/pseudocheilinus.htm> Domo arigato. <You're welcome> >>offering of the Golden Cleaner Wrasse, Hawaii - Labroides > Will send your note off to: Ken Wong at Marine Depot, the WWM Crew >to get cracking on devising the separate Pond Index/Site, publisher >James Lawrence of now Microcosm/TFH, myself to make copious >notes...> Arigato gozaimasu - for forwarding my concerns on to more folks who are in positions of greater influence than I. Knowing that the little "stink" that I raised has just been magnified and given new momentum, is a rare exception in a field that usually leaves one feeling like little more has been accomplished than shouting at the wind. <Indeed> You know, I wrote "*my* concerns" above, but I wouldn't have had a clue about the importance of Marine Depot's offering if it hadn't been for your book. <Ah, the pleasure> On an unrelated point, does the WWM site have any representation of what the pages in *your* aquarium log books look like? I've finally started keeping logs, but they're still an inconsistent mess. <Do you mean a sort of site map? The public view is sort of like what we call "Indices" (tables of contents, ordered lists by category: marine, ponds...). The Navigation View within the system is much larger, involved... an ongoing work in progress, effort to keep, build all orderly, aid in helping the WWM crew get around there> Domo arigato gozaimasu. -rb <Thank you my friend. Bob Fenner> P.S. If necessary, please forgive the possibly inappropriate use or unintended mangling of the Japanese "thank you's. <Wakarimas>

CLEANER WRASSE Dear Bob, Just would like to share my experience with the common cleaner wrasse. It has been for many years that I have heeded many articles claiming that these cleaners should be left in the sea and a better choice would be the cleaner shrimps. These are also included in the near impossible list of fish alive in captivity like the regal angel, pinnatus and ribbon eel. <By and large factual... most Labroides do die within a week of capture... but certainly not all> It started after my success with having a regal for about 2 years and I decided to take the plunge on a cleaner wrasse, after I felt that the skunk cleaners, being about 5 times more expensive, are not really efficient in their duties. Now, 1 year later, I have four of these doctors, one each in 4 different tanks and they eat anything from frozen brine shrimp to flakes. I cannot be 4 times lucky and I strongly believe the secret is in selection of a healthy specimen and I hope this would encourage aquarist to try this fish. <Agree with the above... techniques, flight times have greatly improved the aquatic livestock business the last decade and more> I cannot but feel that many articles are written against this fish so that more shrimps can be purchased. <Nah. I don't think this is the case...> For your info, in this part of the world, cleaner wrasse are about US$1.50/each whereas skunk shrimps are US$7.50/pc. <Labroides dimidiatus are quite common and easy to catch comparatively (with Lysmata shrimps, other Labroides species)> So much for now and my fingers are itching to try either the pinnatus or the ribbon eel. <Good luck my friend. Let me know of your efforts, results. Thank you for this input. Will post on WetWebMedia.com Bob Fenner>

Disturbing Post About Cleaner Wrasses Hi Bob, How are you doing??? I'm looking forward to seeing you at the LA club X-mas party in a few weeks. <Me too> I was wondering if you could jump in and comment on a post on Reef Central. I posted that removing cleaner wrasses from the wild has a detrimental effect on the fish that are left behind on the reef. <Am largely of this same opinion... though the last couple of years have heard from a field investigator (a young woman in Australia if memory serves) that Labroides removal had no discernible negative effects...> Well, the direction the post is taking is that there are no studies or proof that this is destructive, that it is just a myth or hearsay. In fact, one of the posters has linked an article that says it isn't destructive (unfortunately, the link isn't working for me right now). <Mmm, will look... there actually have been removal studies in the wild...> Anyway, I hate to see all these people reading this thread and coming to the conclusion that it is ok to buy cleaner wrasses. Here is the link http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=933326056f174b39edaffda

7bcc3a15a&postid=328982#post328982 Could you maybe jump in with your expert opinion?? I think it would change the direction of the post and maybe dissuade some reefers from purchasing these animals that are best left on the reef. Thanks for your effort. Joyce <Thank you for bringing this to my attention. My general opinions re the genus are posted here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/labroide.htm Be seeing you, Bob Fenner>

Re: Disturbing Post About Cleaner Wrasses Lucky Bob!!! Thanks for the reply Jason. Hope to see you all soon. Here's the text of the of the article that was published that stated that removing the cleaner wrasses is not harmful: Oecologia ISSN: 0029-8549 (printed version) ISSN: 1432-1939 (electronic version) Table of Contents Abstract Volume 111 Issue 1 (1997) pp 137-143 Effect of the removal of cleaner fish on the abundance and species composition of reef fish Alexandra S. Grutter Department of Marine Biology, James Cook University of North Queensland, Townsville, Qld., 4811, Australia Received: 28 October 1996 / Accepted: 7 February 1997 Abstract The ecological significance of cleaner fish on coral reefs was investigated. I removed all cleaner fish, Labroides dimidiatus, from eight small reefs, measured the subsequent effect on the abundance and species composition of all reef fish after 3 and 6 months, and compared it with eight control reefs with cleaner fish. The removal of cleaner fish had no detectable effect on the total abundance of fish on reefs and the total number of fish species at both times. Multivariate analysis by non-metric multidimensional scaling and ANOSIM pair wise tests based on 191 fish species revealed no effect of cleaners on the community structure of fish. Similar results were obtained using principal components analysis on subsets of the data using the 33 most common fish species and the 15 most abundant species (\geq5 individuals per reef ) with both log10 (x + 1) transformed data and with fish numbers standardized for abundance. This study demonstrates that the removal of cleaner fish for 6 months did not result in fish suffering increased mortality nor in fish leaving reefs to seek cleaning elsewhere. Re: Disturbing Post About Cleaner Wrasses Hi Bob, <<Bob is away diving, he'll return 12/7. JasonC here answering the > WetWebMedia mail. Bob will be reviewing all this mail I'm sure so he'll get > back to you. For the benefit of the WWM readers, I'm going to post the pith > of this message on the daily's so that they can post at will. Bob can chime > in upon his return.>> > How are you doing??? I'm looking forward to seeing you at the LA club X-mas > party in a few weeks. > I was wondering if you could jump in and comment on a post on Reef Central. > I posted that removing cleaner wrasses from the wild has a detrimental > effect on the fish that are left behind on the reef. > <<Funny, I just answered a question regarding this very issue yesterday. > Only alternative to purchase in Sydney, AU.>> > Well, the direction the post is taking is that there are no studies or proof > that this is destructive, that it is just a myth or hearsay. In fact, one of > the posters has linked an article that says it isn't destructive > (unfortunately, the link isn't working for me right now). > <<I'm sure this opinion is boosted by non-divers - people who've never seen > them in person.>> > Anyway, I hate to see all these people reading this thread and coming to the > conclusion that it is ok to buy cleaner wrasses. > <<erk... not good.>> > Here is the link http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=933326056f174b39edaffd a7bcc3a15a&postid=328982#post328982 > Could you maybe jump in with your expert opinion?? I think it would change > the direction of the post and maybe dissuade some reefers from purchasing > these animals that are best left on the reef. > <<And hopefully Bob will when he returns - hope this it still timely. In the > meanwhile, faithful readers... if you frequent RC, please chime in on > this.>> > Thanks for your effort. Joyce > <<You are quite welcome. Will make sure Bob see's this. Cheers, J -- <Thanks for this timely input Jas... this is the person I e-chatted w/ re the topic. Bob Fenner>

Re: Disturbing Post About Cleaner Wrasses Sorry, I meant to send the link. Here it is: http://link.springer-ny.com/link/se...01/71110137.htm <Got it. Again, thank you. Bob Fenner>

Cleaner wrasse (Maybe not...) Bob, Two weeks ago I bought a common cleaner wrasse. He's thriving in my 240 F.O system. It also has some live rock. Anyhow he eats everything frozen formula, romaine lettuce. He also loves to clean all of my fishes. My problem is when he's cleaning my fish. It seems like sometimes the wrasse is hurting the fish. Because When he cleans , some of the fish turn around and chase after him. My wrasse is very active. And now some of the fish seem to keep away from him. And the wrasse sometimes chases after the fish, wanting to clean them. When they really don't want to be cleaned. Any reason why this is happening?? <Could be that the wrasse is simply over-eager (this happens with "too few customers", but could be that you don't have a cleaner wrasse at all, but a Saber Tooth Blenny (Aspidontus taeniatus)... Put this name in FishBase.org: http://www.fishbase.org/ and look at the image, description... the mouth in this mimic is subterminal (underslung) compare/d with Labroides dimidiatus (the Cleaner...). Check out the coverage on our site: http://wetwebmedia.com/labroide.htm and associated FAQs pages... My buddy has a cleaner wrasse, and seems to be experiencing the same prob. Thanks. <You may both want/need to trade these specimens in... and use other cleaner species. See the www.WetWebMedia.com site here re your possibilities. Bob Fenner> Lee

Re: cleaner wrasse Hi Bob, I just looked at your wetweb media sight. In your marine fish section. I was looking at the pics of the saber tooth blennies. I don't think my common blue cleaner wrasse is a saber tooth. I can clearly distinguish the diff. In patterns. <In... patterns? Of what? Their markings are almost identical... See Nick Dakin's Tetra Marine Book... they even have them misidentified. The mouth is the salient character difference. Bob Fenner>

Cleaner Wrasse contradiction Hi Bob, I'm not trying to "catch you up" or anything but I know you want the info on your articles and FAQs to be accurate. <Yes> You don't have to put this on your daily FAQ or anything as I am not trying to embarrass you. <Only I could do that my friend>> But I was reading up on the clownfish pages, but on the section on diseases you recommend Labroides Wrasses. www.wetwebmedia.com/clownfis.htm (Look towards bottom of the page.) Gosh I know you don't anymore, looks like an older page perhaps? I thought you might like to know this was still there?? <Very... very likely... do see the reference you mention... Labroides who have "made it" used to be used to clean up mainly Brooklynella (hostilis) infestations in wild-caught Amphiprionines... Perhaps clarification (and definitely whatever is the cause of the all-emboldened part of the file, sheesh, can be offered.> BTW, had a good time with our now mutual friend Zo this weekend at the Shedd Aquarium in Chicago. I didn't need him to move any couches. :-) <Ah yes, and no... a missed opportunity. Will add an addendum with your suggestion tomorrow. Thank you. Bob Fenner> --des aka Jane

Common blue cleaner wrasse Bob, My friend Carlos, you prob. know him. You met him at the marine conf. At Embassy Suites Monterey CA. Anyhow he's had this common blue cleaner wrasse for months! He's in a 240 gal. with all sorts of fish. Angels, Tangs etc.. I'm sure Carlos has told you about his tank. Anyhow the wrasse is flourishing, eating frozen formula cubes, and also doing what he's suppose to do, clean fish. Is this luck, or did he get a good decent condition blue cleaner wrasse?? Whets your input regarding this? Carlos's example is influencing me to go and find a good specimen. <As the years go by there seem to be more success stories in keeping Labroides wrasses, particularly L. dimidiatus. More are certainly living for longer than let's say ten or twenty years back... But most (a majority) still die within a week. Try them and you'll see. An exception or two does not make a/the rule. Good luck. Bob Fenner> Thanks Lee

Would like to invite you to a message board discussion about cleaner wrasses Hi Mr. Fenner. :) Sorry to bug you directly but I'm involved in a discussion on cleaner wrasses at Reefland's message board. I'm dead set against anyone keeping these fish in home aquaria, but others are advocating that they're ok to keep. <Mmm, most of the time, not OK, as you and I know> I wanted to invite you as an expert to chime in. I was reading an article you wrote on the subject (http://www.wetwebmedia.com/labroide.htm) and thought people might listen more to you than to me. As it is, the person making the inquiry thinks now that they are ok to keep. He's going with my suggestion neon gobies) really only because they're cheaper and smaller..... :( Here's a link to the thread: http://www.reefland.com/cgi-bin/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=27117#post27117 Thanks for your time sir! -Mike Harris <And thank you for your interest, involvement in the hobby and planet. Will have to get to Monday... enroute back from MACNA... Bob Fenner>

Re: Would like to invite you to a message board discussion about cleaner wrasses Thanks for trying! I actually received your post as a "private message" on Reefland..... Not sure how that happened. <What? Me neither... very likely my ignorance of their posting protocol... please do cut/paste and make viewable to all Mike if you deem worthwhile.> Worst comes to worst I guess I could always just cut and paste it into a reply. Sorry you're having a hard time getting in. <Ah! No worries my friend. Bob Fenner> -Mike

Re: Would like to invite you to a message board discussion about cleaner wrasses Hi again, Mr. Fenner. :) Wow, this has sparked a HUGE debate. One of the debaters started a separate thread for it. You might want to take a look, as your name seems to be getting bandied about quite a bit. :) <Ah, glad to be of some service in "stirring the pot" as it were, if it leads to some enlightenment. Think I have managed to send along a real posted reply/input this time: Ninong, thank you for your input. You are correct re the sources of information, field experimentation in "the land down under" refuting early speculation on the role of Oxyjulis californica (the Senorita Wrasse, a for-sure non-obligate cleaner off of the Californias)... and the intergradation of L. dimidiatus betwixt obligate-facultative cleaner is one I would argue. Also, thanks to Ravenmore/Mike for his ongoing help (along with Scott Zachow at Reefland) for bringing me up to speed and making known this discussion. As much as I like "artful forms of persuasive argument", i.e. rhetorical strings, this matter of issues, particularly the incidental mortality of the genus Labroides, is approachable as "science"... Contact folks in the marine import, wholesale business, or an honest retailer... and ask them how many of these fish/es they lose. Some few folks have been "lucky", and indeed, survivability may well have improved over the years... Much more likely, the isolated incidences of success with this species (specimens persisting more than three months let's say), are due to a limited source to shipping phenomenon (a "good" collector, fortuitous shipping arrangements, decent wholesaler/distributor getting not-too traumatized specimens that aren't too-starved to the end-user in initially good health)... I stand by my impression, cataloging of the overall suitability of these species in captivity. The vast majority die quite soon, mostly from starvation. Do concur that there is enormous difference of opinion on the "importance" of cleaners as ectoparasite, and necrotic tissue removers on the world's reefs... but have seen even HUGE pelagics come in to shallows, obviously for a "cleaning". Are there "other" cleaners? Certainly? Are there local epidemics )e.g. crypt, Amyloodinium) that result in significant fish population losses in the wild? Again, of a certainty, yes. If Labroides are/were collected extensively in these areas does this have a significant impact on the outcome of such infestations? I don't know, but suspect there is some (perhaps not biostatistically "significant") negative impact. Again, there is no "reason" to arguing numbers here. Labroides dimidiatus "pay" to divers is about a nickel over its range, 30-50 cents a "piece" (term used in the industry) FOB to mainland whlse/distr.s and what retail? Ask your suppliers why the big mark-ups... If they will, have them supply you with their suppliers contact info. Or look for the same on our Links Page (www.WetWebMedia.com). The members of this genus don't live at all well in captivity HISTORICALLY. Their importance in the wild? Where's the endemic Hawaiian L. phthirophagus? ("the disease eater") in the trade? Think about this and investigate my friends. Bob Fenner Here's the new thread: http://www.reefland.com/cgi-bin/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=27608#post276 08 Thanks again, sir. -Mike <Be chatting my friend. Bob Fenner>

Re: Sick Red Sea Sailfin Mr. Fenner, I do not have any cleaner organisms & was wondering if it would be smart or stupid to add 2 cleaner wrasses to the main tank without quarantining them- <No to the cleaner wrasses> Are cleaner wrasses immune to crypto? <Definitely not immune> I saw a few @ the LFS & they were actually being "pests" to the fishes in the tank. Would a cleaner shrimp be a better choice? <Ah yes. Some choices there... and: http://wetwebmedia.com/clnrfaqs.htm Bob Fenner> Thanx & thanks again Craig

Why not a cleaner wrasse Thanks for the quick answer about my 37 gal. tank. <No problem.> You mentioned that you didn't like the idea of getting a cleaner common (blue streak) wrasse for parasites. I looked on the web site and couldn't find the information about them. [ http://www.wetwebmedia.com/labroide.htm ] Are they too aggressive or don't they survive long , in an aquarium? <Bob's article at the above URL will explain all... best regards, Lorenzo>

Labroides Wrasse Keeping Success Bob, I will try to explain my success with the L. Cleaner Wrasse, within my ability to do so. I am by no means an expert in this area, <What is an expert? You have been successful here and are relating valuable experiences> but here is the info. When I first purchased this specimen, I had a small outbreak of Ich. He immediately went to work cleaning the hosts...i.e.. Powder Blue Tang, Emperor Angel, etc. When the symptoms seemed to clear, he immediately started to eat the frozen food to which I feed my community. The food he loves the most is Krill. When I bought him, he was about 1 inch long <Ahh, I think this is a major element of your success... the fish started small (they eat other foods then, and like all wild life, are more flexible/adaptable to captive conditions as young...> and now he is close to 2 inches in length. He feeds on the various foods I give him until his stomach is quite bloated. When I clean my Tank, about every 3-4 weeks, My Angel and Powder Blue get quite stressed. Maybe the stress is triggering parasites to the hosts which might give the added nutrition necessary for his survival. Since I have had him, I have had yet to see a parasitic breakout. I mix the food on a daily basis, I keep at least 7 varieties, and he seems to know what to go for. I think the key with my success, to include all of my fish, is that I mix such a great variety of food. I know now that I've talked about this, I'll probably go home and see him floating, but really, that's all I can figure. It costs a little more to do it my way, but I've taken my responsibility for these fish very seriously. I hope this helps. Doug <Assuredly it has my friend... will post to the general FAQs section on WWM and move off in a couple of days to the Labroides (genus, wrasses) section for others edification. I thank you. Bob Fenner>

Trigger/Wrasse Bob, I just picked up a 3-4 inch Rhinecanthus rectangulus, quite a beautiful specimen I might add, I also have a Cleaner Wrasse. I purchased the Wrasse before I knew that it was the wrong thing to do, and I know they usually don't survive in captivity, but my question is, will the L. Cleaner Wrasse survive with this Trigger? <Only this individual experience will show... very often Triggerfishes leave Labroides alone, recognizing them as allies rather than meals...> By the way, for some reason, my wrasse is one of the few, I have had him for about 14 months now, but when he does go...I will heed your advise and try another species of cleaner to help the natural reef eco systems. Thank you, Doug <Please relate what you consider your success with this specimen is due to. Did it eat from the beginning? Did you have it in with many host fishes? Bob Fenner>

Cleaner Wrasses Mr. Fenner, I have just read your article on Cleaner Wrasses in WetWebMedia (http://www.wetwebmedia.com/labroide.htm) and I'm interested in specific and scientific references on the obligate cleaner status of Labroides dimidiatus and the effect to the reef on the removal of L. dimidiatus pairs from cleaning stations. <Mmm, well, took a look at the vers. of this piece on the WWM site, and do only have pet-fish references posted there under "bibliography/further information". The hobby magazine FAMA (Freshwater and Marine Aquarium) here in the U.S. ran the full-length copy in 7,8/90 issues, offering to send the entire "bibliography upon request"... don't know if they keyed, stored it, have it or not.... I do have some mimeograph copies of the original work (done for a college aquatic animal behavior course in 1976... and will gladly send you a copy of this, or if enough people request, key the four pages or so onto the WWM HTML piece...> I have been keeping L. dimidiatus (collected as juveniles locally around Sydney) for over 25 years and have never had difficulties in getting these fish feeding on standard prepared marine fish foods. In fact, a 10mm juvenile I caught yesterday was eating live brine shrimp nauplii within moments after leaving the bag. I currently have two individuals that were caught in February, 1999 that are now over 8cm long. When caught they were 1.5 and 3cm each. When I look over my records, I can say without hesitation that any deaths I have had with L. dimidiatus was not due to either starvation or poor nutrition. The most common cause of loss I can only put down to predation by stomatopods or snapping shrimp as all were fat and healthy and before disappearing. <Thank you for this report... as stated many places in my writings... the values offered for mortality/survivability are based on historical experience... I assure you that your results are due to careful collection, of juveniles, of careful handling on your part... The vast (more than 99% or Labroides of all species (though L. dimidiatus makes up 95-98% easily of all) are dead within a month of capture from the wild... and yes, mainly due to "stress", physical traumas...> I would contend that at least as juveniles, L. dimidiatus must be able to eat food other than parasites removed from other fish for them to survive to adulthood. <Agreed... this fish is at most a facultative cleaner when young/small> I would also think that adult cleaner wrasses must also be facultative or all adults that do not set up cleaning stations would starve. If the latter is true, and they do starve, removal of adults may in fact increase the chances of survival of others. <Not to the experience of folks who have collected many, examined their stomach contents. At least for trials, locations reported these are "more" obligate cleaners> I would forward a different suggestion as to their poor survivability and that is one of shipment. A great number of species or marine fish do not ship well, and I believe cleaner wrasse may be in this category. If the time from ocean to dealer is particularly long, these fish may be already starved before they are even offered for sale and this may be the reason they are difficult to get feeding. This appears to be the case with mandarin fish, some angelfish and number of other species. For example, in Australia, the flame angelfish Centropyge loricula , does not do as well as those offered for sale in the US. I believe this is largely due to the extended shipping times for those imported to Australia versus those caught in Hawai'i and shipped to mainland US. Conversely, Blue Tangs Paracanthurus hepatus have a better survival rate in Australia than reported for the US. <I do strongly agree, concur on all these points, contentions> I'm not sure if you have read the article by Grutter, 1997 (http://link.springer-ny.com/link/service/journals/00442/bib s/7111001/71110137.htm) where in that study it was shown that the complete removal of L. dimidiatus from a number of small reefs for 6 months "had no detectable effect on the total abundance of fish on reefs and the total number of fish species at both times". This contradicts the proposal you put forward in your article, which is why I am interested in the references for the studies you quote. <Hmm, can't get this link to come up cutting and pasting... A query: were there other cleaner species identified in this same area?> At this point I cannot say that US aquarists should continue to purchase L. dimidiatus, but I think is important to get a better understanding of their reported poor survival. Perhaps a survey is in order. Andrew. <Do agree with you, have bags packed, camera gear in-ready... And thank you again for input (will post to general FAQs and to genus, and to Cleaners sections of the WWM site) and mental stimulation... In particular, always glad to receive reports of success, explanations/suggestions for improvement. Do let me know about your desires for the old bibliog.., send an address, and I'll forward a copy. Be seeing you, Bob Fenner>

Re: Cleaner Wrasses Bob, ><Hmm, can't get this link to come up cutting and pasting... A query: were >there other cleaner species identified in this same area?> It must have got truncated by my mailer program. Here it is again. http://link.springer-ny.com/link/service/journals/00442/bibs /7111001/71110137.htm Unfortunately, this is only the abstract so I don't have the full article, yet. There is no discussion in the abstract of the absence or presence of other cleaner species (wrasse or other). <See the work was done off of Townsville (have a friend from there who now lives in San Diego, and was just in Queensland (Heron Island) a couple months back... And do note the absence of mention of other cleaners (curious there were not Stenopid or Hippolytid Shrimps mentioned, even in the abstract... and don't have ready access to the pdf whole article... could add to list of to-dos at the UC library... Can recall from memory, work done on/with the labrid, Oxyjulis californica, ANOVA testing of data in the sixties on this (one of three Californian) species of wrasse. As you'll see through the bibliog..> >In particular, always >glad to receive reports of success, explanations/suggestions for >improvement. Do let me know about your desires for the old bibliog.., send an >address, and I'll forward a copy. I am hoping to get some more information from the Oz aquarists on Reefing The Australian Way UBB. This should include both successes and failures. I will forward you a summary if you are interested. <I do appreciate this, yes> I would like a copy of the list of references. Please send to PO Box 173 GLENBROOK, NSW, 2773 AUSTRALIA. Many thanks, Andrew. <On its way. Cheers. Bob Fenner>

4 line red sea cleaner wrasse Hi Bob, I just thought I'd let you know, I have just bought one of these little guys. He is about 2@ long, and appears to be settling in fine. <Ah, good> I had some discussion with you about these little guys some time back ..... and now I have taken your advice and got one. I'll let you know how I get on, and how he fares, and if all is well I will start the "campaign" along with you against the importation of the true pacific cleaner wrasses (obligates). So far I am delighted with my new introduction. Thanks, Regards, Matt <Sounds good... If there is a god that is a Labroides, you and I may make into a piscatorial "heaven" yet! Bob Fenner>

More on 4 line red sea cleaner wrasse Hi Bob, Can you please expand on this question from yesterday (Feb 6?) I've been following your advice not to buy cleaner wrasses (Labroides,) but I'd like to get a/some cleaner fish. I've been having trouble finding Gobiosoma oceanops. <Look on the Net, better LFS... they're tank bred in good numbers, available all year long if folks in the trade will order them> I've seen a 4 line wrasse from Hawaii for sale. Are these the same as the Red Sea version? <Think we're talking about Larabicus... not a Pseudocheilinus... that Four line's found in the central W. Pac...> Are they good/recommended cleaners? It sounds from your answer like you endorse these, any more information you could provide would be appreciated. Thanks, Brian Battles <Sorry for the confusion, and please do read over the brief introduction to these species listed on the site: www.WetWebMedia.com Bob Fenner>

Missing fish :( Hi Bob, Thanks so much for your time and help again. I have had a cleaner wrasse for over a month and this past week, it seems to have "disappeared". I don't see it swimming anywhere even at feeding time. I even tried directing a powerhead into the "caves" and holes in the live rocks. Everything else is fine. I am just concerned if it might be still alive. Do you have any suggestions as to how I might be able to find it? I have a 60G tank with 45lbs LR, 1 tang and 2 angels. Ammonia=0, Nitrate=0, ph=8.1, salinity=1.023, temp=78F. Thanks. Brian <Hmm, the genus Labroides wrasses don't hide this/that much... either the animal has perished and dissolved/been consumed (happens, completely and quick), or has made the big leap and become floor jerky or a cat happy meal (look around the back or for kitty's smile) Bob Fenner>

Better Labroides selection Sorry to ask again, I've read a lot of your articles at wetwebmedia. They are very useful. I have a question, probably you have heard a lot about. Its about the cleaner wrasse. Which one do you think is ok, the Hawaiian One or the pacific blue one. I've read about their stories of not doing well in captive. and some that do ok. Please advise on this. Also will a larger cleaner wrasse be a trouble to fish smaller than it. My angel is 2 inches, and if the cleaner wrasse is 3-4 inches do you think its ok. If it was the case do you think my setup is ok: 1-Cleaner Wrasse 1-Koran Angel 1-Yellow Tang 2-percs all in 55 w/ cleanup crew. thanks again. >> >> None of the genus Labroides wrasses do well in captivity. Less than one percent live more than a month in my estimation. Read over the article and FAQs on "Labroides" on the site: Home Page ... and other cleaners pieces there. Instead for function's sake look into Gobiosoma gobies, Lysmata shrimp species... Bob Fenner

Good morning healthy cleaner wrasse! Bob, thanks for the instant response. this morning the "cocooned" is out of the slime swimming pecking for parasites on his tankmates. Can we conclude that this Labroides dimidiatus secreted the mucus "cocoon"? <I believe so> If some predator had captured the wrasse in its mucus trap, could the wrasse emerge behaving so normally this morning? <Not likely> finally, why do you suggest that I probably have a mystery culprit in my tank? (to account for the "cocoon"?) <In part, and from your account of mystery losses, including a lack of bodies> I have one small (<1"), very slow bright yellow cucumber and have never seen any large worms. I appreciate your insights. Gemstoner >> <And I your input, Bob Fenner>

Cleaner wrasse in nocturnal "cocoon" Bob, thanks for answering and publishing the daily Q&A. Hundreds of us can learn from your response to one Aquarist. tonight I came home and inspected my 54g reef/fish tank by illuminating a dimmed room light. To my alarm, a basic "pacific" cleaner wrasse was on its side, a bit twisted, at the rear bottom of the tank enclosed in a transparent sort of slime "cocoon". The slime substance appears not unlike what I have observed being shed from certain corals such as a scroll pagoda I keep. A Yellow Tang was exhibiting some behavior perhaps related to the enclosed Wrasse. He was hovering and backing into the "cocoon". Do you have any idea what I am observing? Does the wrasse exude some protective slime in which to sleep? Could some other predator critter excrete the slime to paralyze and later consume lethargic sleeping fish? I should tell you that I have lost several fish to "mysterious causes" whose carcasses are never found. I devour so much aquarist material - both on line and hard copy - but have never run into a description of what I am observing tonight in my tank! Perplexed, Richard Buonomo >> Interesting... don't know that I've ever heard of a Cleaner Wrasse (likely a Labroides) exuding a sleeping cocoon, though many wrasses and Parrotfishes do... And there are a bunch of organisms that might use such feeding techniques that might render your observation... And it does sound like there is a "mystery" culprit in your tank... but who? A sea cucumber? Large polychaete worm? Bob Fenner

Cleaner Wrasse & Gobies Hey Bob, I am wondering if it is necessary to put a new cleaner wrasse or neon cleaner goby (not yet purchased) into my quarantine tank before going into the show tank as I would with any other new arrival? What protects these cleaners from the ick and other parasites? Thanks for the help. Eric Blanton >> Am not a big fan of Cleaner Wrasses of the genus Labroides (they by and large don't live period), but there are other labrid cleaner species... And Cleaner Gobies... both are small animals that are easily starved in the acclimation, quarantine process (let alone shipping and handling to get to you)... so be aware of this and take extra care to make sure they are fed/nutrified. Good question re their susceptibility to external parasites. Turns out, they can "catch" them as well... but do have their own cleaners in turn... If it were me, I'd still freshwater dip/bath these species and quarantine them... to be sure. Bob Fenner

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