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Upstairs or downstairs?
Reef/sump set-up, maint. -- 06/28/07 Good afternoon all! I
am in the midst of oodles of research regarding adding a sump with
refugium to my setup. I have a 55 gallon FOWLR at the moment, and would
like to move up to a reef. The tank is about a year old now. I've
been researching the proper plumbing, and am toying with the idea of
putting the sump/refugium in my basement directly below the display
tank. I have much research to do, and I'm sure I'll have
questions coming regarding the specifics once I get to that point. My
question at the moment relates to maintenance and water changes. It
seems to me that many people with sumps perform their water changes
directly from their sump. Is that correct? <It depends on the person
and their set up. But I can try to explain to you the logic of doing a
water change from a sump/refugium rather than the display. Many systems
are set up such that water pumps from the sump/refugium to the display
while water flows via gravity back to the sump (through a
'drain(s),' a hole(s) drilled in the display tank). If you do a
water change from the display, you'd likely be bringing the water
level down below the drain(s). But the water in the sump would keep
pumping water back up. Since most sumps/refugiums are only a fraction
of the volume of the display, your sump could pump itself dry during
the water change. This is bad for the sump and for the pump in the
sump. You could turn off the pump in the sump, but you'd have to do
this after you lowered the water level in the display (or else the sump
will overflow). Having a sump in the basement could make this tricky.
You might find yourself running up and down the stairs, racing against
the pump or gravity or both. If you do the water change from the
sump/refugium, assuming the water volume of your display is much
larger, the vertical water level in the display tank should not drop
nearly as far as it would in the sump. Also, doing the water change
from the sump could allow you to more easily pace your water change. Of
course, the situation changes if you don't use a gravity-pulled
output to the sump. Some aquarists use two pumps instead of a pump and
a drain. And some use a combination of pumps and drains that can get
quite complicated. But in your case, and for most beginners, I strongly
suggest the use of a gravity pulled drain from the display to the sump,
with a pump from the sump to the display. You can have more than one
drain though. That just depends on how much flow you want from the two
tanks and how many holes you're willing to drill in your tank.>
In my current tank, when I perform water changes, I take that
opportunity to siphon off the liverock, clean the sand, etc. I'm
wondering when the "sump people" do that? <They likely do
it as they feel they need to. To prevent either one tank from going dry
or another overflowing, you will need to take out just enough water so
that the water level is below the drain(s). Then, before the pump in
the sump/refugium brings the water level back up, you'll have to
turn off that pump. Again, this is where having the sump in the
basement is a bit of a disadvantage. Some aquarists use float valves
which automatically turn pumps off if water gets to a certain
level.> Do water changes turn into a two step process......one being
cleaning the display, and one being water exchange? Could you shed some
light here? <It doesn't have to be a two part process. I have a
65g display with a 29g refugium and I do all my water changes from the
display. Even if you get confused in trying to figure out when to turn
off the pump or where to lower a water level to, usually you learn
after your first overflow or dry out. Something about seeing it happen
often helps people better understand what's going on.> I'm
ultimately trying to find out where will be the best place to make all
my water... ...upstairs with the display, or downstairs with the sump?
Will I be doing equal amounts of work upstairs as well as downstairs?
Am I better off to just put a sump underneath the tank in the stand? (I
do love the idea of having ample room in the basement though). <I
can understand why having the sump in the basement is tempting. Many
aquarists do this and wouldn't have it any other way. However, if
you plan on having a reef tank, there's another thing you will have
to consider; build up in the pipes. The longer your pipes are, the
harder they're going to be to clean and/or replace.> I should
have prefaced this by letting you know that I am currently battling
hair algae. In response, I have upped my water changes to weekly (from
every other week), and considering twice weekly. <Have you tried
getting more herbivores?> Every water change is a major ordeal, as I
am removing and cleaning all the powerheads, heaters and canister
filter intakes/returns during each water change. Believe me, I'm up
to my eyeballs in frustration! I have finally figured out that there is
phosphate in my tap water, <Ah, there's your problem! You should
invest in a RO/DI water filtering unit. You will especially need this
if you plan to keep reef invertebrates.> and thus have ordered and
received a Kold-Steril unit along with their alumina media. (I just
cannot stomach the thought of the wasted water of RO units).
<Hmm'¦ it might be difficult for you to keep a reef tank
without RO/DI filtered (or distilled) water.> I have added
Chemi-pure as well. And until I get the Kold-Steril running, I am
purchasing RO water for all change and top off. I hope that my battle
plan pays off, as the tank is nowhere near a max bioload, <What are
you considering the 'max bioload?' I ask because people usually
overestimate their 'max bioload.' You can't go by the
inches of fish per gallon rules, especially not for reef tanks.> I
feed sparingly, and have four powerheads along with an Eheim 2026
filter that is cleaned out weekly. I guess I'm wondering if when a
reef tank is running "optimally", whether the hobbyist is
spending very little time invading the display to keep it clean?
(making the downstairs setup more desirable). I should note that I
believe I am very understocked as far as clean up crew. I have 3 crabs
(which I could certainly do without......I'm not thrilled with
having them at all) and 3 snails. I believe I need to add a significant
amount more snails. <3 snails is probably not enough. While
there's no certain rule for how many snails you can or should have,
you definitely want more than one kind of snail. Different snails eat
different kinds of algae.> I've been researching, and as always,
everyone has a different opinion. Would 20 snails in a 55 gallon be a
safe middle ground? <It would be two many if they were all of the
same type. It's best to get 3 to 5 snails each of 5 different
types. Also makes sure that whatever type you get, they are species
that live at reef temperatures. Unfortunately, some of the snails sold
for reef aquariums are species from much colder waters and so are not
suitable for tanks at reef temperatures> Lastly, my plan for all
this is to purchase a 75 or 90 gallon for the display, and use the
current 55 for the sump. Is the 55 gallon too big? <Absolutely not,
big sumps/refugiums are good things.> And my apologies for one more
question.........when you add a sump, do you calculate the amount of
water to change based on the total new volume? Say you've got a 90
gallon display, and 30 gallons in the sump, would the 10% for the water
change be of the 90 gallons, or the combined 120 gallons? <This is
something of a trick question. Theoretically, yes, you'd consider
the total new volume of water when calculating for a water change.
However, the more water your system has, the lower your effective
'bioload' (assuming you don't start putting animals in your
sump) and so it's likely that, with the increased water volume, you
can do fewer or smaller water changes.> As always, thank you for
your time and willingness to share your knowledge. All the newbies are
eternally grateful! <Happy to help :-) Sara M> Best regards,
Kim
29 gallon sump, new SW, another MegaFlow
re-do 6/16/07Hello Crew- In July, if
everything goes well, my new home purchase will go through. This of
course means now is the perfect time to upgrade my system. <Lots
of changes!> The current setup consists of a 29 gallon marine.
All of the beginner mistakes were made and the project has cost me
far more than it should have had I done more thorough research on
WWM. SeaClone, Berlin Airlift, and a myriad of other devices
drained my wallet before learning the better way to accomplish my
goals. <Ah, yes> My plan is to setup the system approximately
one month before the fish and I pack our fins, and the accoutrement
of keeping house. This will promote proper cycling with the
addition of BIO-Spira and allow the live rock curing time. The tank
will be either an All-Glass or Oceanic, leaning to the Oceanic if
the budget supports such luxury. Naturally this will be a drilled
tank with an overflow to a 29 gallon sump/refugium. I do realize
the MegaFlow moniker is a bit of a misnomer and expect roughly
300GPH flow rate. <We are in agreement> The sump will be a
DIY based on the pressure locking baffles article on the website. I
have calculated/researched the pump volume and with about 5 feet of
head on a 3/4" return am thinking about the Eheim 1262.
Although this may be overkill, the gate valve with the return T to
the sump should mitigate flow rate concerns without taxing the
pump. <Good design... but might I ask re the function of the
check valve pictured? Likely the overflow/s will be at the same
level... I would likely leave this off...> Additional turnover
of 10-20 times will be handled by diametrically opposed Tunze
Stream 6000's placed in the display in lieu of a closed loop
system. Skimming will be accomplished with either an AquaC Remora
Pro or AquaC Urchin Pro. <Okay> An RO unit will be the
principal purchase and installation. I have not decided which unit
yet, but something in the range of 30 gallons per day for both
human and fish consumption is a must. The use of Tropic Marin
PRO-REEF has made dramatic improvements in my existing FOWLR and
now it will be purchased by the bucket. <A savings there>
Lighting is still in the early days and the current agenda calls
for a T5 retrofit to be placed in the custom hood of my building.
No corals or other heavily phototropic will be placed. 4-5 watts
per gallon should suffice in my estimation, and is on the current
setup. The sump will have a reverse light cycle to the display
aiding in pH stability. <Okay> Automatic top off is indicated
in my diagram and is high on the wish list. I am not certain how
this will integrate into the sump, or if it will function properly
where it is located. <Could be made to work in the tank or
sump/refugium> I would appreciate your thoughts and input on my
plans and "design" which I have attached as a small JPEG.
My apologies for the long email, but wanted to be certain you have
a complete picture. This venture, dubbed 'Fish II' looks
like it will be in the neighborhood of $3,000 but will be worth
every cent. Kind regards, Jake in NC <Sounds like you're
cogitating furiously... and are good at making plans,
contingencies... Moving into new digs, esp. ones that are purchased
tests one's mettle... Do consider the value of flexibility...
and please read here re the possibility of having the new tank
p/re/drilled for more through-puts of size:
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/pbholessizeplace.htm and the linked
files above. Bob Fenner> |
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Ecosystem 3612 sump help. 6/13/07
Hi WetWeb Crew, <Hi there> My Name is Mitch, I'm From
Australia. <Hello Mitch> I have recently had the ecosystem
3612 installed in my 120g tank. There was allot of hassles
importing the kit here so my local aquarium guy had the sump made
here. <I see> This system is very new here so there is not
much information around about it. <Mmm, am friends with Leng
Sy... We had long discussions re this line... skimming... Some
while down diving off Cairns... know this products history quite
well...> I Don't think the internal measurements are totally
accurate so I am hoping somebody who has the 3612 can give me the
internal measurements. <Will cc Leng here re> I have attached
a diagram of my system. Any help will be greatly appreciated!
Thanks,
Mitch
<Bob Fenner> |
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Sump/'Fuge design and layout 5/10/07
Hello crew and thanks for all the great reading and advise that you
have provided people with. <Hello back at ya! You are welcome to
our great store of info!> My question is that I know now for my
90 gal tank that nitrates are up around 10 to 12 and no amount of
water changes get it lower than that so a sump is needed now.
<Have you considered the cause of the nitrate levels? While that
is an acceptable number, and I also applaud your trying to maintain
zero tolerance, I wonder how much livestock is in here and how much
you feed?> I talked to my LFS and bought a sump and the
hardware. I already had a remero <Remora?> pro hang on back
skimmer with a mag5 pump so for now I wanted to use it to save
expense. I have drawn a pic of the setup. Does everything look
right to you? Meaning where the lower cut in the glass is, and the
upper level into the last chamber. <The only thing I question
about this setup and layout, is that the last chamber will be the
only variable in the sump. When there is excess or surplus water in
the system, it will only have the first and last chambers to
occupy, as the middle chamber will not hold more that the baffle
holds back. Make sure that you leave sufficient volume in the
variable zones for time between top off, or you may end up feeling
the need to add another remote sump for the surplus. Also, the foam
block on the input to the sump is a poor choice IMO since you may
need to clean it daily to avoid it backing up. I think a sock would
be a better choice in this case. Finally, the long plunge the water
takes to the last chamber and then to the pump would almost
certainly make for bubbles being constantly blown into your
display. Consider adding a small series of baffles to give the
bubble a chance to settle out.> I will also place a 250w heater
in the middle section. <I would keep the heater away from the
"plants" if possible. It does seem as though the sump is
rather small, if that drawing is anywhere near scale. You may have
to put the heater there, but if you can manage to put it anywhere
else, I think it would be better.> Does everything look ok to
you guys before I begin to plumb it all in this way or do I need to
make a change now? <I think the layout is good, as long as you
are aware of a few things: 1. The smaller you make chambers one and
three, the less reserve you will have and the more frequently you
will be adding water to avoid blowing bubbles into the display
because of low water levels. 2. Once you create this sump and have
it running, it will be harder to make any changes, so the proper
research and digging through the archives is going to profit you
greatly in this case. > Thanks again for your help. See
attachment. <Attachment seen. -GrahamT> Randy H.
Randy, I forgot to mention that the location of your skimmer would
not work as shown in the picture. the water level in the first
chamber would be well below the pump. -GrahamT |
Re: Sump/'Fuge design and layout pt.2
5/10/07 5/11/07 <Morning Randy!>
Thank you for your comments. <My pleasure, of course.> So you
would recommend putting the skimmer in the middle or the last
chamber of the sump? <I only saw an issue with the skimmer
location as drawn, because the pump seemed well-above the proposed
water line. If you submerge the pump, the location would not be an
issue. You are actually best-served to place a skimmer in the first
chamber of your sump to ensure that the scummiest water gets to it
from the skimmer box.> I will also take your advise and add a
baffle to give the bubbles time to clear so that they don't
make it into the main tank. <Nicely done. I would recommend
experimentation before permanent placement of the baffles to make
sure they do what you need them to in the space you have to work
with. One good method (and sometimes as far as you need go) is to
wedge the baffles in their place with foam rubber on the ends to
practice their placement. When you find what you like, you can
cement them later with 100% silicone.> Again, thanks
for your help, Randy
<Again, it is my pleasure, Randy.
-GrahamT> |
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Which Sump Design? - 05/05/07 Greetings!
<<Hello!>> Bob, I need your help! <<Tis Eric here
this evening>> Since I greatly value your opinion, could you
please tell me which of these two sump designs in the attached photos
you would go with? <<Happy to, but only the first photo is
visible>> I am in the process of building my own sump from an
All-glass 20H tank and 1/4 inch acrylic for the baffles.
<<Smart...the manufactured sumps are overrated and
overpriced...in my opinion>> This is the only size sump that will
fit under my stand. <<Understood>> I want to keep it simple
yet effective. <<Agreed...and easy to do>> In case you need
additional info, the overflow on my 55 gal. reef tank is a CPR CS102
(two drains), the return pump is a Mag 12. <<Mmm, aside from this
much flow through this small sump being problematic, unless you will
have a lot of head restriction on this pump I doubt the overflow will
be able to handle the volume. Do be sure to plumb a
gate-valve on the output side of the pump to temper the flow if
necessary. Or better yet, downsize the pump to a Mag 5 or
Mag 7. Either of these pumps should provide plenty of flow
through the sump (depending on head restriction/backpressure), and they
will definitely make dealing with plumbing hassles (noise/bubbles/etc.)
much easier>> My Euro-Reef RS100 skimmer will be in the first
chamber, along with a filter sock. <<Sounds fine>> The
first baffle is an over baffle at 11 inches high. <<Eight or nine
inches will be plenty/just about ideal for the ER skimmer and give you
a bit more capacity for transient water volume when the return pump is
off>> I want to add an eggcrate media holder so I can place
carbon, Poly-Filter pad, and/or foam (bubble-removing) sponge.
<<Ok>> But I am not exactly sure of the best location for
this media holder for maximum efficiency, and of course bubble-free
water. <<Anywhere between the skimmer and return-pump chambers is
fine Once again, I value your opinion, so I would love to know which
you think would be best. <<As stated, only the first image is
visible...and it looks as if the first baffle is an "under"
flow design with little/no room in the first chamber for your
skimmer. Actually, I think the design you
"describe" will work just fine>> Should the water run
down through the media, or through it sideways? <<Either method
will work>> Thanks so much! I love this site and the
awesome job you guys do on it! Laura <<Thank you for the kind
words...and do write back for further clarification if
necessary. Regards, EricR>> What do you think about
this sump for a 180 - 210 gal FOWLR? *** 4/25/07
http://futurepet.com/cgi-bin/FULLPRES.exe?PARTNUM=ACA794096*<
http://futurepet.com/cgi-bin/FULLPRES.exe?PARTNUM=ACA794096>
<Looks like a nice, practical unit... I do like the first chambers
filter sock (needs to be cleaned at least once a week... I'd have
two... one to take out, clean, have drying... while the other's in
service)... and use the sump area for placing a skimmer... Bob
Fenner>
Tank Set-Up, sump... 4/4/07 Hello. <Hello
Pam.> I have spent COUNTLESS hours in your site over the past
couple of months doing research for my first tank. Thank
you all at WetWebMedia for spending your time helping us all.
<You're very welcome.> Counting down the days before I
can fill up my first tank! Have everything I need except for the
lights. As soon as I'm back from vacation on the
1st, the RO/DI is going into the tank! :) <RO/DI
going into the tank??? Do not understand, this is used
for purifying make-up water.> The wait is TORTURE!! <Oh yes,
but do have patience...is very important to success.> Below is a
picture of my Sump (tank is 53g 31.5" x 19" x
19"). There are two compartments built into
the front of the sump (about 1/2" to 1" at the bottom, is
open between the two chambers). I know that these
compartments can be used for media, or as a
refugium. I'm not sure, but I think the divider
between the two compartments may also be removable. What
would you do with this setup? <Mmm, looks too nice to be a DIY
project. Who makes this product?> I don't plan on
adding a refugium to the system...so I'd either use one or both
of these compartments for a refugium, or have none. If
using them as a refugium, would you use both sides, or just one and
save the other side in case I need to use media of some type down
the road? (or would I just add media into the filter sock?)
<<No. RMF>> <Would like to see a top photo of this
sump with the top cover removed, and a photo from each side.> I
wouldn't mind having a spot to breed some type of Mysid shrimps
or pods to feed my fish. If I go that
route....would I put some small scrap pieces of live rock at the
bottom of one or both of these chambers, or live sand or what, and
if so, how deep in inches? Would I want any macro algae
in there as well, or just the live rock rubble and pods/shrimp?
<Yes to both, but I'd wait at least a month before adding
any macro algae.> Below are a couple of fish I'll be adding
down the road. With these fish in mind, what would be
the best type of pods and/or shrimp to breed in a refugium for
food? <I would not worry about breeding shrimp right now until
you learn more about this hobby. Pods can be bought from
etailers and used to stock your tank with a breeding
culture. I would do this first before adding fish so as
there is plenty of time to develop a healthy
population.> Pair of Percula or Ocellaris Clowns
Possum Wrasse Some other type of wrasse Some type of Goby Some type
of Blenny Thanks so much!! Pam <Do send
requested photos and I can give you more assistance, and thank you
for writing. James (Salty Dog)> |
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Re: Tank Set-Up. James - Here are the
pictures you asked for of my Sump with built in Refugium
4/5/07 Thanks for the quick response James.
<You're welcome.> Sorry...wrong choice of words for
adding the RO/DI. I at least know enough I have to mix
it with salt first. :) Do I need to add
a buffer first before adding the salt though? <Would not add
buffer until mix is completed. May not be
necessary. Do aerate your make-up water 24 hours before
mixing the salt to insure no CO2 is present. CO2 will quickly
exhaust the alkalinity level.> I attached the pictures that you
asked for of my Sump with built in chambers that can be used as a
refugium or to hold media. It also has a built in
reservoir for Top-Off Water (you'll see the blue top-off pump
in there), and the top-off controller attached on the left wall of
the inside of my stand. The Display, Sump, Skimmer, Top-Off
Controller are all made by Elos and sold as a system (Eheim 1260
Return pump, and Eheim 1250 skimmer pump also included in
setup). Awesome setup! I attached a picture
of my display too. <Appears to be a well designed unit with
quality components. No much room for a refugium, I'd
rather use that space for Chemi-Pure, heater placement,
etc. Did not see the pic of your display.> I was
wrong about the divider between the two chambers (without sock)
being removable, it's not, BUT, the black plastic divider on
the left of the chamber with the sock, IS removable. <Do clean
the sock on a weekly basis along with the reaction chamber of the
skimmer. A bottle brush works well in cleaning this area
without the need for removal of the skimmer. In looking
at the pics, I sense you are a very neat, well organized
person.> Thanks!
<You're welcome. James (Salty Dog)>
Pam |
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