FAQs about Bubble Trouble and Aquarium Systems
4
Related Articles: Plumbing Marine Systems, Plumbing Return
Manifolds, Refugiums,
Related FAQs: Bubble Troubles 1, Bubble Troubles 2, Bubble Troubles 3, Bubble Troubles 5, Bubble Concerns, & FAQs on
Causes/Fixes: Diagnosing Sources,
Intake/Overflow Issues, Plumbing Issues, Pump/ing Issues, Discharge Issues, Biological Issues, & Solved Cases, & Marine Plumbing 1, Marine Plumbing 2, Marine Plumbing 3, Marine Plumbing 4, Marine Plumbing 5, Marine Plumbing 6, Plumbing 7, Plumbing
8, Plumbing 9, Plumbing 10, Plumbing 11, Plumbing 12, Plumbing 13, Plumbing 14, Plumbing 15, Plumbing 16, Plumbing 17, Plumbing 18, Holes &
Drilling, Durso Standpipes, Overflow Boxes, Plumbing Noise, Make Up Water Systems,
Pumps, Plumbing, Circulation, Sumps, Refugiums, Marine
Circulation 2, Gear
Selection for Circulation, Pump Problems, Fish-Only Marine
Set-ups, Fish-Only Marine Systems 2, FOWLR/Fish and Invertebrate Systems,
Reef Systems, Coldwater Systems, Small Systems, Large
Systems, Water Changes,
Surge
Devices,
|
|
Tiny little bubbles on everything.
3/6/19
Hi Bob Fenner,
<Sass>
I've looked and looked on your site, but all I see are articles about
bubbles from skimmers or leaks in plumbing, but that's not what I have.
<Mmm; scattered about, did you try the search tool (on every page):
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/bubtroubfaq2.htm
and the other FAQs files linked above>
I have tiny little clear bubbles on my macro algae and on my peppermint
shrimp, on the glass and the back wall. Now it's not like these are
covered with tiny bubble, but there are enough that it's noticeable.
Even on my pulsing Xenias! It's very strange.
<Mmm; as in "unusual"? Not really>
I thought, OMG! I'm boiling the tank, the heater must have
malfunctioned, but no, the temp says 76.8 degrees. I have one of those
hang in the tank thermometers in both my tanks. A little bit lower than
it will be by noon.
Usually runs about 78-80 degrees depending on the amount of sunshine.
This is a 13 gallon peninsula tank,....and it looks fine. Has been up
for a couple years,...and now and then I do see bubbles, but not on the
peppermint shrimp! Nothing in the tank seems upset or anything,....it's
just weird.
The only thing that has changed is I took a small live rock from my 25
gallon reef tank and moved it to the 13 gallon to try to get some macro
algae in that tank. It's makes it looks so much better to have some
green!
Someone mentioned Nitrogen bubbles?
<?... I'll offer suggestions re what these bubbles may be below>
And I do have a deep sand bed for the anaerobic bacteria, and now and
then a bubble or a few will come out and percolate up to the top,.... So
I suppose it could be that. But why all of a sudden are they on my
peppermint shrimps? Certainly I can see the bubbles in the deep sand bed
if I look at the glass sides.
<... could be gaseous anaerobic product... H2S, not N2... but not
likely; as hydrogen sulfide would likely kill your livestock>
They look more like tiny O2 bubbles, but I don't have that much macro
algae in there!
<Ah yes; MUCH more likely... from "over" productive photosynthesis... Do
you have/notice this bubble presence more as the (day) light
progresses?>
Just a little bit on 1 live rock. The other rock is covered in sponge
and xenias.
<Nice>
This isn't an emergency I don't think,...but I'd like to know if it is
normal? Or should I be concerned?
<I would not be concerned; might turn my lights, lighting down a bit
time and/or intensity wise... Will pass on its own in time; out-gas to
the surface w/ no dire consequences otherwise>
Thanks again,
Mandy in NJ, USA
<Cheers, Bob Fenner out in Kona currently>
re: Tiny little bubbles on everything.
3/7/19
Hi Bob,
<Mandio>
No, as a matter of fact, the bubbles were bad first thing in the morning
and have disappeared over the daylight hours. Very strange.
<Indeed. BobF>
Mandy
re: Tiny little bubbles on everything.
3/7/19
I copied this from the Faq page link you sent me,......Eric R. Wrote
this.
Perhaps this nitrate cycle is more active at night? Turning Nitrate to
Nitrogen bubbles?
<Mmm; maybe... never encountered personally. B>
Mandy
<<Hmm, I wonder if we have a different situation here? Bubbles rising
from your substrate is a natural and desirable function of the nitrogen
cycle which is always ongoing in your tank. As nitrate is converted to
nitrogen gas in your substrate, the gas is liberated and rises as
bubbles to the surface of the tank. If your "problem" is these bubbles
you see when water movement is stopped in the tank, then you have no
problem at all my friend>>
Closed loop... pb issue; cavitation from
too large pump, too small pb
8/11/14
I have a closed loop on a drilled tank, bottom has 5 inch bulk heads, I
drain
<Wish there were two>
and 4 returns, I have a Iwaki rated at 1900 gph , 1inch in/out. Out is
plumbed to pvc manifold that has flex to the 4 returns. I also have
union valves on inlet and outlet.
<Good>
When I try and run wide open it cavitates and produces lots of bubbles,
if I back down it is fine. Question , would increasing the pipe size on
the inlet to 1.5 inches help?
<On the intake side; yes>
It would still have a 1inch bulkhead and pump inlet ( just between a
larger pipe)
<... need to re-drill the tank... Enlarge the bulkhead as well. Bob
Fenner>
Thanks
Mike
re: Closed loop
8/12/14
<What I'd really do is to change the pump on your current arrangement to
something smaller flow-wise (like by half), and instead provide
circulation within the system... via pumps, even powerheads... See WWM.
Closed loops are for the most part passé nowayears... for a few good
reasons. BobF>
Re: Closed loop 8/13/14
If I back it off I do not get bubbles , I do have some streams in side
tank Thx
<No sense spending the money on electricity to throttle-back, nor the
added waste heat of a too-large pump. B>
Micro bubbles from return line 8/8/12
I have recently set up my new 25 gallon tank and have been battling micro
bubbles from the return since almost the beginning. I know that there are no
bubbles in the final chamber with my return pump but once the water gets to
the display tank small bursts of bubbles are released periodically into the
tank. I am running a Mag 5 pump that has been plumbed to a 1/2 union
and 1/2" barbed fitting. The barbed fitting is connected to 5/8" i.d. clear
tubing with a plastic hose clamp. All of these connections are submerged in
the final chamber with the water line being at least 4" above the last
connection.
<No place for air entraining there>
This the leads to a barbed T fitting that allows me to throttle the output
of the pump which I have closed. After this connection it continues up
to another barbed T fitting that splits my return into two. These two
lines continue up with 5/8" i.d. clear hose until it is connected to another
barbed fitting attached to a 1/2" ball valve to control the flow from each
return separately. From here the line is plumbed with 1/2" rigid pvc
up to my slip-threaded 1/2" bulkhead into my coast to coast overflow. Once
inside the overflow box it turn into a 10" run of 1/2" Loc Line up and over
the overflow wall into the display tank.
I have looked through the clear tubing for bubbles forming but have yet to
see any and have no idea where the air is being introduced. I have
checked
over all the unions and they seem sealed with no small leaks or weeping, but
just to be sure I applied a ring of plasticine
<Mmm, I'd remove this... and remove the plastic clamps, place some silicone
lubricant (as for camera o-rings) on the barbs and replace the clamps... and
do the same (silicone) over the thread to thread connections on the FIP/MIP
fittings on the pump volute, AND the volute/pump connection/face as well>
over the joints to try and see if this would stop the bubbles due to and
unseen micro leak. I then replaced some of the Loc Line with rigid glued PVC
in case the exposed Loc Line was introducing air
<Shouldn't... low pressure at this point>
and so far it has not eliminated the bubbles.
There are still three links of Loc Line that have the top portion exposed to
air.
<Again... this isn't the source. Has to be some place of higher differential
pressure. Likely the fittings on/of the Mag pump>
I have yet to replace all of this Loc Line with two ridged pvc 90's up and
over the weir into the tank. I will try this next but was wondering if
my problem may be that the pump is either plumbed with too many
valves/unions or inadequate diameter plumbing. I hope this is not the case
because the overflow was only drilled to except 1/2" bulkheads for the
returns. Do you think the size of pipe could be causing my issues?
<No; not likely>
and if so could I just run larger plumbing up to the bulkhead and adapt it
down leaving only the last 10" or so in 1/2" plumbing? Or do you think it is
the exposed Loc Line that could be introducing the air.
<Not likely at all>
I really would like to solve this problem but as of yet have no solution.
I have attached a few images to show the plumbing. If there is anything that
needs to be clarified let me know.
Thanks,
Dave
<Thread out the intake and discharge threaded fittings on the pump, take off
the Teflon tape, plumber's putty... whatever is on there now, and just use
100% silicone to re-nestle their connections, and the other barb to flexible
connections as mentioned above. Likely you would not hear (with a length of
tubing to your ear, the other end applied near the possible leak source) or
see (with water applied to the junctions) the source of this air
entrainment... but you will likely be able to solve it w/ the silicone
connection applications. Bob Fenner>
Re: Micro bubbles from return line, now flow rates... tank, sump
8/8/12
I forgot one more thing. I have read a lot about the best gph to run through
a sump and it seams that this is about 4-6 times.
<Sumps can be higher... refugiums, these biological areas are not high
volume though>
I have a 20 gallon sump on my 25 gallon tank and run about 170-180 gph after
head height unions etc. on the Mag 5. Is this enough flow though for my
system.
<Mmm, better by far to have most of the flow inside the tank itself... use
of powerhead/s, water moving pump/s there>
My coast to coast overflow runs the entire length of my 24" wide display and
has a toothed 1/8" toothed weir. The flow seams fairly slow over the
weir but I am getting about 4 times my entire system volume per hour. Do I
need to increase this?
<Depends on the type/s of life you're keeping, what you intend... but yes,
in most cases you'd want more water movement>
I ask now because this may affect what I need to do in remedying my bubble
problem if I need to up size the return pump.
Thanks again,
Dave
<Please read here:
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/circrate.htm
and the linked files above. Bob Fenner>
|
|
Re: Micro bubbles from return line
8/13/12
Hi Bob Fenner,
<Dave n' Jenn>
I listened to your advise on resealing the clear tube to barb fitting
connections with silicon grease and c clamps
<Mmm, not C's... I would just double up on panduits, zip-ties per
connection/barb>
and also replaced and sealed the threaded barb and 1/2" slip to threaded
connections on my 1/2" ball valves. I unfortunately still have air
bubbles entering my display tank.
I have not yet sealed the Mag 5 pump with the silicon grease
<I would definitely do this... and the MIP/FIP fittings in the volute.
This is THE most common source of air-entraining>
but it is continuously submerged under 4-6" of water so I can see no way
for air to enter the line here.
<Ahh, I agree>
Maybe I am wrong but there appears to be no vortexes forming in the
return chamber down to the pump or the 1/2" union and threaded barb
connections which are all also submerged.
I replaced some of the clear hose tubing and can now see into the line a
lot better and have seen no bubbles forming before the 1/2" ball valves.
I did notice that when I open and close the ball valves a short stream
of larger and micro bubbles is forced out of the Loc Line of my returns.
Maybe the air is entering here and these should be removed. You had said
before that it is not possible for air to enter into the exposed Loc
Line sections so it seams that the ball valve may be the problem.
<Perhaps>
Although I have not seen bubbles forming in the clear lines I did at one
point see a few clouds of bubbles being shot from the pump but have not
been able to witness this again. Could the 1/2" lines of the output for
my Mag 5 be causing cavitation.
<Not likely, no... unless there is some substantial restriction on the
intake side... as with all small centrifugal pumps, there should only be
dialing down on the discharge side>
I don't think so because the input is completely unrestricted and it is my
understanding that this is only caused by restricting the input side of
a pump.
<Yes>
I am at a loss of what to do know. I could remove the ball valves
entirely or use all hard plumbing to my dt but this may not solve the
problem.
<It should>
If you have any further insight it would be greatly appreciated.
<I wish I did... perhaps having another, some other advanced aquarists
come out, look at the set up...>
Thanks for you time.
Cheers,
Dave
<And you, BobF>
|
Microbubbles 12/27/11
WWM Crew,
I emailed a couple weeks ago about a Royal Gramma that appeared to be
ill. Well this morning I noticed what appears to be PopEye. I'm
assuming it's from trauma as it is in one eye and seemed to develop
overnight;
<And only one-sided... unilateral?>
he also has been rubbing against plants and rocks. I added some Epsom
salt today in hopes that it might relieve him. My 2 tank- bred
Ocellaris clowns also seem to be acting strange. They were hiding and
both the clowns and the Gramma were not eating as usual, while my
Yellow Wrasse and 2 PJ Cardinals are acting normal<ly>. I am
concerned that microbubbles could be a problem. My tank is nothing
fancy, a 36 gallon bow front with an Aqueon Quiet 30 filter
that came with the tank.
<Not likely a source of bubbles of trouble>
The bubbles are very small and are not very noticeable but still
concern me. Would I benefit from upgrading my filter and a protein
skimmer, I plan on adding live rock sometime soon so I feel like an
upgrade would be beneficial. Hope you can help.
<Yes, yes, and yes>
Thanks!
<This clone hang on filter doesn't produce sufficient pressure
to cause such troubles. I would not be concerned w/ it as a source. Bob
Fenner>
One pump or two... standpipe noise, bubbles
NRR... Not Reef Ready plumbing -- 10/07/11
Hello All,
Thanks for all of the terrific information! Have spent many hours
looking through a good number of the sections. Just a quick question. I
have an All Glasss <Snake tank?> 120gal dual overflow tank
currently being setup for a marine tank. Plan to start as a FOWLR and
then possibly convert to a reef tank. I built my sump out of a 38gal
tank with both overflows coming into a chamber on the left, then
flowing into a skimmer chamber with a Bubble Magus NAC 6, then flowing
through a bubble trap to a return chamber. There is also a final right
side chamber for a refugium that will overflow back into the return
chamber. I have two Eheim 1260s (recs from you guys)for my return
pumps. When both are running (each returning through one of the
overflow compartments) the return is terrific.
The problem is it's so good it's extremely loud.
<Mmm, what, where is the source of noise?>
I plumbed the returns to the sump so they come in under the sump water
level, which helped, but still extremely loud.
<Are these "vented"? Please read here re: http://wetwebmedia.com/dursopipefaqs.htm>
Also this still gives me quite a bit of micro-bubbles in the main
tank.
<And the end/s here... do they terminate in a/ filter bag/s? See
here for example: http://www.cpraquatic.com/pdf/sockitcombo.pdf>
I then tried using one Eheim as the single return pump, with the
returns coming off a T connector from the pump. This is much quieter,
with significantly less turbulent water flow in the sump, but much less
forceful water movement in the main tank. So, my actual question. Is
the single pump enough, or should I just use both and deal with the
noise.
<I'd use both, fix the noise issue>
(BTW, the pump is pumping against ~4ft vertical head and returns are
3/4" with the overflows each 1")
<I know... disappointing. Bob Fenner>
Thanks
Chris S.
Microbubbles Problem
7/14/11
Hi WWM:
<Hello Lynne>
I'm perplexed as I cannot find the source for microbubbles in
my 55 gallon tank. I only have 1 IWAKI 30 RLT pump that
circulates water up from underneath the tank and through 3 output
pipes.
I also have an Aqua C EV120 protein skimmer running and it is not
a new skimmer.
I have also done the soap bubble test on all of my plumbing
connections underneath the tank with no air escaping those
spots.
<Air bubbles are generally caused by air getting into the
intake of the pump.>
So, do you think my IWAKI is too strong a pump for my size tank
or could it be my skimmer?
<Not too strong, it puts out 510 gph at 0 head and I'll
guess your actual flow into the tank is no more than
400gph.>
There is just a constant supply of microbubbles spewing into my
tank that I cannot figure out the source?
Any clues?
<Lets start by shutting down your skimmer and see if that
clears it up. If not, ensure you have no whirlpool effect at the
pumps intake and make sure all your hose clamps are tight.
Might want to scan through our FAQs on bubble trouble here.
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/bubtroubfaqs.htm
James (Salty Dog)>
Lynne
Re Microbubbles Problem 7/14/11
Thank you James for your response and taking the time. I try
doing what you suggest.
<Sounds good Lynne, and do let me know your results.
James (Salty Dog)>
Lynne
Re Microbubbles Problem 7/14/11/7/15/11
Hi James,
<Hello Lynne>
I tried shutting off my EV 120 skimmer and the large bubbles on
the front of my aquarium stopped BUT the microbubbles are still
coming into my tank.
The water coming from the Iwaki pump is exclusively supplying
these outputs into the main tank. The Iwaki is a sealed pump with
no intake in water so I guess that means there is air getting in
the lines somewhere else right?
Your thoughts? And if I cannot or do not do anything, are these
teeny bubbles really harmful to my 3 fish? I've had my tank
running a good 4 years now and they have not harmed my fish yet
so is it really worth worrying about?
<Lynne, can you take a couple of pics of your sump showing the
Iwaki and the EV-120, resize the photo to a couple of hundred KB
and send to me? I believe I
can help you much better if I can actually see your sump and
plumbing.
James (Salty Dog)>
Lynne
Re Microbubbles Problem 7/14/11
7/15/11
Hi James,
<Hello Lynne>
I have attached some photos of the underside of my tank. In my 10
gallon sump I have two Mag 5 pumps, one pumps water into the
skimmer and one pumps water out of the sump up into the tank. The
outlet in the tank from that one Mag pump does not spew out tiny
bubbles.
However, as best I can tell, the two outputs in my tank powered
by the IWAKI green pump are spewing out the tiny bubbles.
<I see the Iwaki set up and it appears to me that this pump is
used for circulation only, likely a closed loop system.
If this is the case, I would ensure that the bulkhead fittings
feeding the Iwaki are snug. With the length of the hose going
into the inlet of the Iwaki, it wouldn't take much of an air
gap in the intake line to create micro bubbles and I believe this
is what is causing the problem.>
The large bubbles in the picture on the inside of the glass are
from my skimmer and I'm not sure how to stop those.
<Your Mag 5 is likely taking in the bubbles coming out of the
skimmer drain. Your sump is really too small to have all this
action going on in such a small area. One experiment to try is to
put the foam sleeve on the intake of the Mag 5. These pumps are
furnished with foam sleeves and a plastic strainer which keeps
the foam from collapsing.
It should act as a bubble trap although will not be a permanent
fix due to the close proximity of the skimmer drain to the pumps
intake. If this helps, you may want to separate the skimmer's
drain from the return pump by placing a large piece of coarse
foam between the two which will act as a bubble trap.
Since you have little room in the sump to accomplish this,
another alternative would be to mount your EV-120 outside the
sump.
As long as the highest water level in the sump is below the top
of the skimmer box itself, there will be no flood problem.
In that regard you can plumb a 90 off the skimmer drain so the
return water enters the sump near the opposite end of the tank
return pump.
This would allow plenty of room for a foam bubble trap placed
between the skimmer drain and the other pumps. I run an EV-180
outside the pump very similar to this. See attached
photo.>
I hope the pictures help! I could not reduce my photos with my
Comcast email so I hope they still come through!
<Came through fine.>
Thanks for all of your time, I sure appreciate it!
<You're welcome. James (Salty Dog)>
Lynne
|
|
Re Microbubbles Problem 7/14/11 7/15/11
7/16/11
James,
<Lynne>
Thank you so much for your time and great information.
<You're welcome.>
I will be sure to try these things. I never thought of putting my
EV 120 outside of the sump.
I appreciate your thorough answers and not just relaying me to a
link on your site!
<There are many times where a link can have much more
information than I have the time to say/write. James (Salty
Dog)>
Lynne
|
Microbubbles 1/3/11
Hello WWM Crew! I finally finished my fish system at my new facility.
It consists of 6 sections of 3 tier tanks all 33gallon Long. Anyhow, I
just started working on lighting these tanks and I noticed a pretty big
issue here. With the plumbing I decided to return the freshly skimmed
water at the very top row and have them drain/return into the next row
of tanks and again into the last row(hope that makes sense) which
drains into the sump.
<Mmm, it does, but I wouldn't do this... not controllable
"enough"... not able to shut off a section... for various
reasons>
The middle row and bottom row of tanks have a huge micro bubble issue.
The reason I went with this style of plumbing is because the size of
the facility, no basement and I wanted to stick with one pump and one
large sump. I cant figure out how I can reduce the amount of
microbubbles being produce from the drain. Any ideas?
<All sorts>
The return/drains are 1" and the bottom row drains into a large
diameter pipe that runs across from one side to the other which drains
into the sump.
_ ____ _ ____ _ ____
|_|____|_|____|_|____|
|_|____|_|____|_|____| ____
|_|____|_|____|_|____| |SUMP|
| | | | | | | |____|
Hope the diagram helps! :)
<It does indeed. I would attach "dissipaters" of some sort
to the discharges... bags, sections of tubing attached with elbows,
drilled holes in the pipe... Bob Fenner>
Bubbles, noise, and flow that won't flow
12/7/10
Hey WetWebMedia crew!
<Hello James.>
Thank you for your impeccable knowledge of the trade and consistent
information to all of us amateurs and novices alike! My system is a 135
Clear For Life acrylic with a corner overflow with half of the
teeth
removed, 1 1/2" bulkhead, 8" of 1 1/2" PVC up from the
bulkhead with numerous 1/4" holes drilled and a 90 at the end
incase of a fish or snail getting sucked in, and bio-balls filled up to
the 90. Under the tank is 1 1/2" PVC running straight down with a
45 just below water level, this flows into a filter sock. My sump is a
20 gallon Eshopps reef modified into a refugium with an extra baffle,
and a ASM G1x doing the skimming. There is a Rio 2500 running my JBJ
Arctica 1/10th chiller with 3/4" I/D tube to a 3/4" bulkhead
in the back of the tank 1/3 of the way from the overflow to the other
side of the tank. There is also a Little Giant 4-MDQX-SC plumbed with
1" I/D tube (for vibration) from a 1" bulkhead in the side of
the sump, out of the pump is also 1" I/D tube to a ball valve and
flap style check valve, to a 1" bulkhead on the other 1/3 of the
tank. Inside the tank is a 1" Tee and 2 45's for flow
direction. Sorry for the long detail but with all of the information I
know it will be easier to diagnose my problem.
<This is good, all the info is here!>
My problem is the noise from the over flow box, micro bubbles, and if I
open the ball valve all the way my tank fills before it can drain into
the overflow but the water level in the over flow does not rise at
all.
<This is too much flow for this line. Opening the pump all the way
is making this line siphon, a dangerous situation.>
I have purchased an ABS wye and all of the other pieces for a modified
Durso standpipe because I cannot find Flex PVC or a PVC wye at any of
my local plumbing or hardware stores that are the right size. Is it ok
to use ABS in place of PVC for the standpipe?
<Sure.>
Is a Durso the best unit for my application?
<It is, just fabricate one yourself as you are doing. Make it
taller, just a few inches below the top of the overflow. With an
8" tall line in your current setup I suspect much of the noise you
are hearing is water falling down into the overflow.>
What can I do in regards to the bubbles and flow rate?
<You simply need to lower your flow rate. See:
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/BulkheadFloRateArt.htm.
Lowering the flow rate will decrease noise and bubbles and put the rate
at a much more reasonable level for your sump to handle. With a 20
gallon sump it does not give bubbles much chance to dissipate at such a
high flow. I would simply just use the Rio as your return pump and
either feed the Little Giant out of the tank for a closed loop or use
powerheads for in tank flow. There is no need or advantage to running
all of this flow through the sump.>
Thanks for all your answers and hard work
James in sunny California
<Welcome, Scott V. in the same area!>
Micro Bubbles 9/15/10
<Hi Gene>
I just disassembled both of my pumps (return and skimmer) for a
thorough cleaning. It hadn't been done in 2.5 years (my bad).
Frankly, they didn't look too bad, just a bunch of gunk. They
cleaned up nicely and are running well (Blueline pumps are
excellent).
<Yes, they are. Were designed and built by an ex Iwaki
engineer.>
I've noticed in the past - when I do a really good job of cleaning
my equipment - I tend to get micro bubbles in the display tank. Is this
common? If so, how long can fish and corals handle the excess O2 in the
tank.
<No such thing as excess O2 in saltwater, it does have a saturation
limit.>
It's been about 2 days now with some decline in amount - but, if
needed I'll take whatever corrective action needed.
<Is not uncommon and is likely the result of an "O" ring
not sealing tightly. It's a good idea to apply Lifegard Silicone
"O" Ring Lubricant to the "O" ring after cleaning
it, will help to ensure a good seal.>
Thanks for your feedback,
<You're welcome. James (Salty Dog)>
-gene
Micro bubbles 4/20/10
I have looked thru your website and can't find an issue like mine.
I have a 55 gallon reef tank with a 15 gallon sump. I have a mixture of
live rock and bio ball in the sump. I have a protein skimmer and a
phosphate refractor <contactor?> in the sump, neither one has an
air leak. I have an external Iwaki pump returning the water all of the
fittings are air tight.
I can see the micro bubbles being generated in the bottom of the intake
section of the sump with a flashlight.
<Likely a leak on the discharge side of the pump, at a fitting in
the plumbing there from... Read here: http://wetwebmedia.com/BubblesDiagF.htm>
I had this pump system in a 92 corner tank I had, I down sized to this
55 for economic reasons 2 months ago. Everything was working perfectly
until this started about 10 days ago. I placed a filter sponge in the
bottom of the return tube with no effect at all. Do you have any
suggestions or recommend a product I can use to stop this madness?
Thank-You in advance........Tony
<The reading referenced, and as much of the linked files above as
you deem sufficient. Bob Fenner>
Re: New pump, tiny bubbles...
reading 4/26/10
I read the section you directed me to and tried the Vaseline for air
leaks, nothing. I took apart the pump and found the front rubber cap
and shaft jammed into or glued into the front cover. I could not get it
out. Would this affect the pump?
<Possibly, but not to a great extent>
I put a new o-ring and put it back on the sump. Still micro bubbles.
Could it be to powerful for my tank?
<Mmm, yes... you are experiencing air-entrainment... Do you know how
to use WWM? The search tool? Indices? Read here:
http://wetwebmedia.com/BubTroubF4.htm
and the linked files above>
Then I spoke to the person whom I got it from and they informed me,
they had the same problem with it on a 180 gallon with sump.
Would/Could it be a Bad pump?.
<Perhaps a bad/leaky gasket (volute)... but not likely...>
Would I be better putting the 950 back on? I would like to add a
powerhead. Could you tell me, would a 3200 gph be too big? Or should I
go with 2 1500 gph?
Thank you Again.
P.S. I have a ball valve on the end of the pump with a 3/4-1" barb
on the end of that. Is the 1800 gph too powerful for this reduction
that quick?
Thus creating the bubbles?
<Have just skipped down. Enjoy the reading, learning. B>
Micro Bubbles Mystery -- 11/18/09
Hi,
<<Hello>>
I am experiencing high volume of micro bubbles being ejected into the
tank causing a fuzzy/hazy appearance in the tank. I can confirm that
the skimmer, calcium reactor, chiller returns, anything else in the
sump are not causing the problem because I turned them all off for a
few minutes...ran only the return (GenX pump 1500gph) and still seeing
bubbles, no micro bubbles are entering the intake bulkhead to the pump,
only coming out the returns in the tank.
<<Ah'¦>>
How is this possible?
<<It would seem that air is being drawn-in somewhere along the
pump return line>>
Have things grown on the impeller of the pump to act as a needle
wheel?
<<Not likely to such an extent 'and would still need
some type of air infusion>>
Is that a possibility?
<<An unlikely one 'though cleaning the pump's
impeller and volute can't hurt, and will likely improve its
performance/efficiency>>
Somewhere along the lines of the return lines is the problem,
<<Yes>>
I'm using a 1" SCWD too, maybe that is chopping up
bubbles...not sure...
<<No'¦ The mechanism 'within' the SCWD is not
the problem, although the line connections may well be. Try removing
the SCWD and see what happens>>
at this point I'm thinking of exchanging the pump for a brand new
Pan World instead in hopes of eliminating the problem which has been
going on for maybe a month now.
<<This would be a better pump in my opinion, but just exchanging
pumps is not likely going to resolve your issue here. You need to check
'every' joint/fitting along the return line for a possible air
leak (and it probably won't be visible re any leaking water).
Utilizing something like a silicon grease to smear-on and seal the
joints will help. Do this, one joint at a time, until you find the
culprit 'and then make your repair. Or simply rebuild/replace
the entire pump return line if not to extensive a project>>
Thanks for your input,
Matthew
<Happy to share'¦ EricR>>
Re: Micro Bubbles 11/18/09
Yeah I think we're on the same page here. The air must be coming in
somewhere along the return line connections. I was looking for any
signs of salt creep that might indicate a bad connection. but these
bubbles are soo small that they are being "sucked" in along
the lines from a tiny tiny hole somewhere, probably wouldn't be any
salt creep because the inside pressure would not allow it to leak out
but only draw in small air instead I'm thinking. Guess I have some
tinkering around to do. Will try the replacement pump first since I
need a backup anyway and this GenX is pretty noisy, then mess around
with connections.
Thanks for your response.
Matthew
<Mmm. Do read re others adventures with these sorts of issues:
http://wetwebmedia.com/bubtroubfaq2.htm
and the first linked file in the series above. Someone here placed your
resp./query in my in-folder, but am going to send to EricR for his
input as well. Bob Fenner>
Re: Micro Bubbles Mystery -- 11/21/09 (Eric's
go)
Yeah I think we're on the same page here. The air must be coming in
somewhere along the return line connections.
<<Is often the case (see WWM re)>>
I was looking for any signs of salt creep that might indicate a bad
connection but these bubbles are so small that they are being
"sucked" in along the lines from a tiny tiny hole somewhere,
probably wouldn't be any salt creep because the inside pressure
would not allow it to leak out but only draw in small air instead
I'm thinking.
<<Yes 'such small leaks are very often visually
undetectable>>
Guess I have some tinkering around to do. Will try the replacement pump
first since I need a backup anyway and this Gen-X is pretty noisy,
<<A good place to start>>
and then mess around with connections.
Thanks for your response.
Matthew
<<Happy to share'¦ EricR>>
<Mmm. Do read re others adventures with these sorts of issues:
http://wetwebmedia.com/bubtroubfaq2.htm
and the first linked file in the series above. Someone here placed your
resp./query in my in-folder, but am going to send to EricR for his
input as well. Bob Fenner>
<<Thanks Bob 'and my apologies to you and Martin for the
delay in my response. A family emergency has resulted in a hectic
couple of days>>
<No worries Eric. First things first. I hope/trust all is well now.
BobF>
R2: Micro Bubbles Mystery --
11/21/09
Hey Eric,
<<Hey Mathew 'and sorry mate, I just realized I referred
to you as 'Martin' in my last response>>
The problem was the pump. I switched it out with an older spare pump
GenX 1140gph. Surprisingly the older pump was quieter and moved
practically the same amount of water.
<<Ahh'¦is likely 'cleaner' too!>>
Apparently the GenX 1500gph pump had accumulated so much dust buildup
on the fan cover and pump itself that it basically became so hot you
couldn't even touch it without burning yourself.
<<Indeed'¦ These pumps are not 'install and
forget' pieces of equipment. Twice annual cleaning 'inside
and out 'is always recommended, regardless of how the pump is
performing>>
That had to have been related to the micro bubble problem somehow
because after the switch, no more micro's.
<<So it would seem, yes>>
Always a good thing to keep your main pump clean and in good condition
or heat problems can occur and oddly enough, micro bubbles.
<<Indeed>>
Guess this proves that there were no problems with the return line
anywhere or SCWD.
<<Always good>>
-Matthew
<<I'm glad you were able to resolve the issue so quickly and
easily. Cheers, Eric Russell>>
Microbubbles -- 10/28/2009
Hi Crew,
<Jill>
I'm emailing from my home address so I'll try to refresh on my
system.
I have a 125 gallon FOWLR, wet/dry with 2 BioWheels, 20gal sump,
protein skimmer. Sorry, it all came from my LFS through Marineland so I
am not sure the makes/models. This is what I have below:
I have 80 lbs of live rock along with about 3" of live sand.
I'm having trouble with tons of microbubbles. <Mmm, how long has
this system been set-up, running?>
From what I have read on the FAQs, Anthony Calfo suggested using
Vaseline to try to locate where the bubbles are coming from and once
that is narrowed down, sealing it. He also mentioned in another
person's query that a person can put bioballs in the overflows to
help decrease the flow.
<Or a filter bag on the discharge/s to help coalesce bubbles, reduce
splashing>
I have to shut off my pumps during feeding as the majority of the food
gets sucked into the overflow too quick.
<This/these can likely be easily modified... directed downward...
with plumbing... to prevent such>
One overflow keeps gurgling and it trickles too fast and runs over the
back of the mechanical filtration unit
<Ugggghh! No fun... this too can be fixed. Please read here:
http://wetwebmedia.com/pbnoisef5.htm>
down into my sump. Is there a way I can slow that down on one side and
will this help with the gurgling
noise?
<Yes... but likely better to aspirate this/these... see the
link>
Sorry, I don't know technical terms. Wish I had a quick class in
plumbing before I started this.
<Heeeee!>
My porcupine puffer got popeye last weekend ending in his demise. It
came on quick and by the time my LFS started antibiotic treatment in
one of their spare tanks (I didn't have a hospital tank set up at
home), it was two late.
Could the microbubbles have caused this?
<Could be a contributing cause>
All my other fish are well. Ammonia 0, Nitrite 0, Nitrate 10 ppm.
Another thing I noticed is the clamps that clamp the hose onto the
pumps in my sump are metal and rusting.
<Mmm, I would replace these with plastic>
I imagine this can't be good so when I shut my pumps off, I take
them out of the water so the metal isn't touching it. Do they make
plastic clamps?
<Yes. See the larger etailers (Fosters & Smith, Custom
Aquatic...)>
Maybe a dumb question but hey....What do I know? Thanks so much guys
and gals!!
Regards, Jill
<Please do write back if this isn't clear, complete to you Jill.
Bob Fenner>
Re: Microbubbles 10/29/09
Hi again Bob and Crew ,
<Evening Jill>
Bob, thank you so much for your always timely and quick response. I
found that it is my skimmer that is causing all the microbubbles. I
currently have it shut off tonight and will remove it tomorrow for a
thorough cleaning. My LFS guy suggested attaching a piece of sponge or
filter material to the intake and trying that out. Any thoughts?
<Yes... on the discharge side... not the intake>
I haven't addressed the gurgling noise yet but I see that it is
coming from below in the sump area. Still lots more reading for me to
do yet.
<Mmm, yes... again "Emperor Aquatics" bag/s may be your
salvation here... and cutting/terminating the discharge/s slightly
above water if you can't aspirate the line/s properly>
Seems air is getting in there or something. Like everyone else....I
wish I had read this site thoroughly before starting on this mission.
Anyway, everything that I've read about wet/dry filters seems to be
true. My nitrate's went up from a normal (for my tank) 10ppm to
80ppm. I did a 40 gallon water change 1 1/2 weeks ago. I brought my
water in to have it double checked and it's still showing high
nitrates. Phosphate is almost undetectable. Being as my system runs
with two BioWheels, would it be possible to remove one of them and just
keep the filter material there instead?
<Yes>
I am slowly increasing my live sand bed with CaribSea live sand.
<Good>
When I get my 180 gallon, I would like to eventually convert my 125 to
a reef tank. I can definitely see why a newbie should start off with
just a FO or FOWLR.
<Agreed>
My freshwater aquarium is loaded with plants and I never have an algae
issue or anything. Could I just grow some macroalgae down in the sump
to help with nitrate reduction?
<Ah yes... one of a few approaches>
My heater is currently housed there but I'm sure I could find
someplace else to put that. I have a spare 10 gallon...would that even
be worth converting into a refugium for a 125 or is it way to
small?
<Even this helps. Just make sure to rig it where it won't
overflow>
By the way...last month my LFS suggested I use de-nitrate from Seachem
for my nitrate issue. You
see, 10 was even too much for me. Even though I don't have a reef
system yet, I still want the best
for these critters. Anyway, I put this in and now today, approximately
a month later, my nitrates shot
up to 80. Could this be a case of too much of a good thing??
<Is about "par for the course">
My system is still relatively new....4 months old and I'm wishing
like heck that I put it together myself
instead of letting my LFS do it. At least then, I would know how
everything works!!
Stay safe and happy diving to all of you!!
<And you. BobF>
Re: Micro Bubbles -- 10/31/09
I've attached pics of my sump/refuge set up. I can't put a
sock on the overflow since the two PVC tubes are connected to the
side of the sump. I do, however, use a filter pad -- and as
you'll see, I added one more to minimize the splash (I've
never needed it in the past).
<I do think this polyurethane pad is working to prevent the
bubbles>
It appears to me (and the pic of the refuge macro algae seems to
confirm) that the bubbles could be coming from this source.
<I concur... rapid photosynthesis is occurring there>
However, as the water spills into the baffles before being
returned to the display tank, the bubbles don't appear to be
present. The bubbles in the refuge were my initial concern -- but
since they seem to dissipate before getting into the return lines
-- I concluded they were not a problem.
<Not likely so if not too numerous>
The pics don't show it well but the there are 2 PVC inside
the sump; one for the skimmer (shown in the front) and the other
just like it toward the back that feeds the return lines, the
chiller, and the refuge.
<I see these>
Thanks so much for your time to coach me along with this
issue.
-gene
<Welcome Gene. There are other approaches to reducing
bubbly-ness... Do you utilize chemical filtration media? Have you
investigated ORP/RedOx? The use of Ozone here will likely be of
great benefit all the way around. BobF>
|
|
Re: Micro Bubbles
Thank you, Bob.
<Welcome Gene>
I don't know what ORP/RedOx is actually. I'll do some
research on the topic.
<Is a very useful "window" to water quality, and
it's supplementation, manipulation a sure means of reducing
organics... likely the source of "bubbles" here>
What I have in the sump at this moment is a bag of something
designed to reduce phosphates (mine are at about 0.5). I also
have one other small bag of carbon only.
<Worthwhile>
I have ordered from BRS their GFO kit and media. It should arrive
in a day or 2.
<Also worth trying>
What do you mean by "rapid photosynthesis is occurring
there"? I have been running the lights on the refuge 24/7 to
prevent the macro algae from going "asexual"
<Actually sexual>
-- as I've read this could be dangerous and constant lighting
and thinning help prevent this. Should I change the lighting
scheme to reduce the rapid photosynthesis?
-gene
<I would likely overlap some (an hour or two) of the main
displays lighting regimen... and have the lights on the refugium
algae otherwise when the main tank is dark. B>
Re: Micro Bubbles -- 11/1/09
Thanks again!
Can I safely assume that these micro bubbles are NOT causing any
harm at this time to my fish or corals?
<Mmm, no>
I will continue to work at removing the bubbles but don't
want to become overly concerned unless necessary.
Regards,
-gene
<... no way to tell from where I am. B>
Re: Micro Bubbles 11/10/09
Update.
Discovered that the micro bubbles were coming from the overflow
area of the sump. The drop from 10 feet was creating too much
turbulence for the baffle design I had. Thus, I have added new
baffles and eliminated the problem.
Just an FYI.
-gene
<Ahh! Congratulations and thank you for this update.
BobF>
|
Tiny Bubbles (Not in the Wine)
4/24/09
Hi Folks
<Brian.>
I got "Thee a Fuge"
<Great!>
I have a 130 gal reef tank which has been running 1 year, I took out
all the bio balls slowly over a period of 3 months and filled that
compartment with live rock, so in total I have about 260 Lbs of rock
between the tank, sump & Fuge.
<Wow!>
I recently set up a 30 gal tank beside my main tank which I had drilled
for inlet & outlet to act as my fuge. I ran a small pump from the
sump to the fuge & a siphon hose back into the fuge which runs at a
small water flow back into the sump, tried pumping from the main tank
but because of the height of the fuge, even when I turn off the pump
the water still siphons (obviously not high enough) so I was worried
about power outage & you got it major flood, so ran the siphon back
into the sump.
<Uh oh.>
The siphon hose just goes into the sump was not plumbed into existing
lines. So I am getting tiny bubbles coming out of the sump pump into my
tank, will plumbing the hose into the return line to the sump help?
<I do hope we have just a difference in terms here. The drain from
your refugium is not a actual siphon line is it? If so you will be in
for another flood soon, the siphon will fail sooner or later. You could
indeed tie this into your tank drain line to the sump, but the extra
water in the line will reduce the capacity to drain the tank. Run the
line over to the same chamber in your sump, get filter foam or creative
with baffles if you need to. Just make the bubbles' path to your
return pump as long and difficult as possible.>
Thanks
Brian Macdonald
<Welcome, Scott V.>
P.S.
I have lots of Chaeto in the fuge & pods are going wild, I had to
put a Blue Spiny Lobster into the fuge as he has grown quite large
since I got him he is about 5" long, I hand feed him frozen krill
& squid.
What other critters can I put in the fuge as a clean up crew?
<See: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/marscavart.htm and the linked files
above.
All the answers are there.>
Would really love to get a couple mango's
Thanks Everybody You guys are awesome!!!
Re: Tiny Bubbles (Not in the Wine)
4/26/09
Thanks Scott
<Welcome Brian.>
Actually my fuge is not siphon fed it is gravity fed so no chance of
flood as soon as I turn power off the fuge pump it drains to the level
of the fuge outlet.
<Ah, good, I just wanted to be sure.>
Also thanks for the info on my bubbles used some filter media and it
stopped the bubbles.
<Great!>
Thank you so much Scott.
Brian Macdonald
<Welcome, have fun!>
Micro Bubble Problem 3/17/09
<Hi Jayne>
I have a newly set up marine tank. It is freshly plumbed but I have
tons of micro bubbles. I've checked (1) water level in the sump (2)
water level in the overflow (3) blockage of the intake port in the
submerged
pump (4) my vision. I can't find a source for all of the air and
wonder if pumps can have a problem on their own and maybe I need to
replace the pump? It is not new and I've used it for about 5 years
but not for the
past 2 years. It previously had been attached to a protein skimmer so I
had no reason to notice any previous issues.
<A few things to check; is the pump completely submerged, the return
line from tank is not near the pump intake, no bubbles in the sump,
and, no vortex present near the pump intake.
Check your overflow, generally many bubbles are produced here and will
find their way back into the sump and will be inhaled by the pump.
These are the most common causes of micro bubbles. Let's see if one
of the above may be the problem.>
Thanks for your help,
<You're welcome. James (Salty Dog)>
Jayne
Tucson, AZ
Re Micro Bubble Problem 3/17/09
James,
<Jayne>
Thanks for your reply.
<Welcome.>
The pump is completely submerged, the return line is not near the pump
intake and there are no bubbles in the built-in overflow. I guess I
have bubbles in the sump because I have a refugium system and the
"waterfall" into the final portion of the sump where the pump
is located is pretty vigorous but not to the
point of a vortex.
<What I meant by vortex is a whirlpool effect near the pump intake
created by the suction of the pump.>
I tried to move the pump further from the waterfall and the plumbing
came apart and I got an early shower.
<Sweet.>
I've turned everything off while waiting for some help from a local
enthusiast. Since the system is only days old I have only live rock,
some algae and copepods in the water. I assume all of that will be fine
until this problem is resolved.
<If you have circulation in the tank by means of a powerhead, you
should be fine. Is it possible for you to take a pic of the sump and
send to me?
May lead to an idea or two.>
Thanks again,
<You're welcome, Jayne. James (Salty Dog)>
Jayne
Definitive Cause of Microbubbles....?
3/12/09 Hello to the WWM crew, <Hello Steve> We have
been designing and installing large aquariums throughout the Northern
California Bay Area for a number of years (even with the current
economy we are managing to stay busy.... fingers always crossed!), As
we serve largely upscale clients, one of the most common requests is
that the system be QUIET (and I mean QUIET!). We have adopted Red
Dragon pumps as they are extremely energy-efficient, move a LOT of
water, and are almost 100% silent. Amazing beasts these; A problem that
comes up seemingly randomly are microbubbles. I have done a TON of
research on your site (and just about everywhere else) and find a whole
slew of testimonials about fixes but no definitive information about
what REALLY causes them. As they are not buoyant, any baffle system is
useless (I have observed this personally over many painful hours). I
have heard about the possibility of a pinhole leak but in my
experience, when one observes a very fine, barely visible stream of
whitish "stuff" coming from all the returns, a pinhole leak
seems very unlikely. I have used filter socks (which help) and leads me
to believe they are formed somehow and somewhere between the overflow
into the sump. It also seems that if they are coming into the sump, any
mechanical attempt to get rid of them is futile. It seems it would be
far smarter to stop them before they form but I cannot understand how
this happens. I have a friend who is a civil engineer and very
experienced with water flow and is convinced the problem is due to
"super-critical" flow, where the water, as it flows
vertically via gravity, mixes with air and the chaos of vertical flow
(as opposed to a "sloped" flow) creates the problem. We have
used Durso's, Gurgle-busters, and it's really quiet but still
microbubbles.......AIIIYYYYEEEE!!!! If I had any hair left, I would
pull it out! <You are balding:)> Any input? <My thoughts would
be...are the Red Dragon pumps submerged in your systems? If not, you
may want to remove the end cap and apply silicone lube to the entire
"O" ring and also ensure no debris is present on the inner
side of the end cap which could cause a pin hole leak in the intake. If
they are installed submerged, then this possible fix could be
eliminated. I have had a problem such as yours with a new Little Giant
pump and lubing the "O" ring cured the problem. More than
likely, the problem is coming from the intake somewhere. If a protein
skimmer's outlet is near the pump's intake, the pump may be
drawing bubbles exiting from the skimmer's return. Are the
tank's returns to the sump a good distance away from the pump's
intake? Low water level in the sump can create a vortex near the
pump's intake causing micro bubble problems, but I'm sure you
are well aware of this. Other than what you have read on our site, I
can't offer any more suggestions. Hopefully this may be of some
help to you. James (Salty Dog)> Steve Steve Bicker, Designer &
Owner Nemo Marine Systems, LLC: "Exquisite Aquarium
Design"
Another Noise Issue In 90 gallon, and bubbles,
addended 2/9/09 Good morning! <Hello Heidi> I have been
reading all last night and this morning trying to find the answers for
my problem. Same issue as many others in that the water coming into my
sump sounds like Niagara Falls. The water is so turbulent that it's
causing millions of micro bubbles. I bought the tank used. It's a
90 AGA RR with 3/4" return bulkhead and 1" overflow.
Yep....the dreaded 1 inch overflow. I have an acrylic sump/fuge that I
believe is 30 gallons with baffles and bubble trap. I have read all the
tips to quiet this baby down and nothing has worked. I am wondering if
my issue is that my tank is being powered by a Mag 12 pump. And since I
only have a 1 inch drain it's being overwhelmed. I use flex tubing
on both return and overflow so I have no way of restricting the pump at
this time. So IS it that my pump is too strong? <Yes, a 1 inch drain
cannot keep up with the Mag 12 pump.> And if that is the case I
could either buy a new pump or somehow rework the plumbing so I can add
a gate valve into the return line. <Cheaper to add a valve.
Regardless of what pump you use, the valve allows you to set the
optimum flow rate for your drain size.><<... Umm, on the
discharge side of the pump... NOT the return from the tank... The much
better advice here IS to add more drains, drainage. RMF>> I know
more flow is better but how do I calculate adequate gph for my tank?
<Is generally recommended to provide a 10X tank volume flow rate. In
your case, about 900gph. This can be accumulative and can be
supplemented with the use of power heads. It's not necessary to
provide the entire 900gph through your sump.> Right now the Mag 12
provides 1130 gph at 4 feet. Or am I completely going down the wrong
path here and should be looking at ways to disperse the water going
into the sump? Overflow is draining into 1" PVC that is 2-3 inches
below water surface. I was also contemplating bringing the PVC farther
down (almost to the bottom of sump) and using an elbow. Any help you
could provide would be greatly appreciated. I have to admit if it stays
like this I think I would end up taking it down. That is how loud it
is! <You need to control the flow from the pump. Do install a gate
or ball valve. Right now, I'm sure your pump is cavitating, and
that is what is causing the noise.><<Lowering, submerging the
discharge is a good idea. RMF>> Thank you! <You're
welcome. James (Salty Dog)> Heidi
Strange Microbubbles...11/20/08 Hello, a
friend of mine is having a problem with his tank producing micro
bubbles. It only happens during the daylight hours... <Likely only
noticed during daylight hours.> The tank is located in a dark room
with NO natural light. The problem began when he moved his supply pipe
from behind the tank to over the tank "under the lights", he
is running about 1100-1200 watts MH and T5... First I am a plumber I
checked all of the fittings and they are good. <Great, big concern
solved!> He said that the pipe is lined with sponge, so my thought
is that during the night hours the sponge picks up the
"normal" every day micro bubbles and collects them, they get
stuck in pockets and what not. <I have never seen nor heard of
piping lined with sponge. A prefilter?> Then when the lights come on
and heat up the pipes it causes them to release the bubbles. <Would
be released at night too with buildup in the pipe, if this were the
case.> That is all I can think of, it is none of the normal
problems, we are very experienced keepers, so if you can think of
anything off the wall that might be causing this please explain. <Do
inspect the sump very closely, with a flashlight. There is a good
possibility the bubbles are not dissipated completely as the water
travels through. The baffles/sponges may need a bit of tweaking to
prevent this. Otherwise, do make sure there is no restriction on the
pump intake, can be a factor.> Thank you very much, Luke Hines
"FishworksAK" <Welcome, good luck, Scott V.>
New tank plumbing questions 9/19/08 To
WWM, First off, thank you for all of the information you provide.
<Great to hear, thank you Ed.> It has been a big help. Now some
details, I have just finished an upgrade from a 60 gal. reef tank to a
125 gal. reef tank. The new tank has two 1.5 inch drains and four 3/4
inch returns. I am using a Sequence Dart for the return pump with about
18 feet of head pressure when you account for all of the tees and
elbows. Both returns are fitted with Durso standpipes. Now for my
problems, when I tested the system there were no issues with micro
bubbles. Then salt water was introduced, the bubbles appeared. <This
happens, you can never tell about bubbles until the salt is added! You
can experiment with different baffle configurations, make the path of
the water to the return pump as long as possible. This can be tough
with a Dart return, this is quite a bit of water to have to manage
through a sump. Even filter socks on the overflow drain lines can make
a huge difference here.> I am currently adding u-shaped pipe to the
bottom of each return to try to diminish the bubbles. Secondly, and
more of a concern at this point, I am still getting a bit of gurgling
noise from the air hole at the top of the Durso. When I throttle down
the pump, the noise diminishes as well as the bubbles. Obviously I want
to maximize flow to the tank so throttling down the pump would not be
my first option. The air inlet on the Durso is 3/16 in. If I increase
the size of the air intake, will that decrease the gurgling sound?
<If it is 3/16' inner diameter this should be enough. If the
outer diameter is 3/16, I would increase the size. Two 1.5'
bulkheads will struggle to keep up with the flow from a Dart, even with
all the plumbing. Do increase the size of the airline, but the amount
of flow is likely the culprit here. Even if the airline does solve the
issue, realize that these drains will be running at their absolute
maximum with no margin for safety. 750 gph is about the safe maximum
for a 1.5' bulkhead without siphoning (the source of the noise). If
you are just now setting up this tank, I strongly encourage you to take
it down now and drill for another drain or even two.> If so, to what
diameter? <1/4' inner diameter or so.> Thank you for your
help. I look forward to your response. Ed <Welcome, congratulations
on the upsize! Scott V.>
Bubbles and Silicone Grease 9/15/08
Hello, <Cheri> Thanks for taking your time to answer my
questions. <Not a problem.> I read through the questions
regarding micro bubbles in the aquarium and got a bit confused
regarding the use of Silicone Grease and Aquarium O-Ring sealant (are
they the same thing?). <Yes, there are other specialized silicone
greases/lubricants out there, but the types used for plumbing, diving,
cameras, o rings in general are fine to use.> In my case the bubbles
are not a constant stream, they pump out a very short , light burst
every 10 seconds or so. The pump is a Mag 7. I am so paranoid about
using any type of chemical around my tanks....so here goes. To start,
there are no bubbles in the return area of the sump. So, I want to try
and see if the bubbles are coming from air getting in around the unions
and/or the pump face, so would it be OK to use the silicon grease on
the O-Ring in each, or is there a specific type of product I should
use? <Any silicone o ring grease will work for this, the variety
found in the plumbing sections in hardware stores is generally the
cheapest.> Also, I plan on putting some of the grease around each
joint in my return system to see if one of them may be the problem. Is
there anything else you might suggest I try? <Hmmm, I would use
plumber's putty, clay, or even just regular old silicone for this.
Using the grease to diagnose a leaky joint is going to get messy and
the stuff is virtually impossible to clean off.> Again, thank you
for all of the information you provide. You are a great help. Cheri
<Welcome Cheri, thank you. Scott V.>
Microbubbles in Sump 7/24/08 Greetings and salutations WWM
crew, <Hello.> It's an honor to speak with such
experience. I am having a serious problem with micro bubbles in
my sump flowing to my display. I know this is covered many times
in the FAQs, but I think I have tried most if not all solutions
to no avail. <Microbubbles can be very frustrating at
times.> I have a 90 AGA RR mixed reef with a 29 gallon DIY
sump that has been running for over a year. I have redesigned the
sump a few times by changing the gap of the bubble traps to
adding more, adding LR, trying different media, even running the
sump w/o the skimmer (Urchin Pro). The micro bubbles all come
from the inlet/skimmer section. It seems that with the water/air
flowing into the sump from the display creates most of the
bubbles, then the skimmer adds to that. Closing the valve on the
return is only effective if I turn it to a point where it is
barely pumping. I installed an elbow on the return pump pointing
down, but that was ineffective and has been removed. I have
attached a crude drawing of my current setup, the flow to the
sump is ½'-1' below the sump water line. <I
would start by lowering these lines into the water a bit more. At
such a shallow depth the incoming water may suck down some air
from the surface at times.> All the lines between the display
and sump are PVC hard plumbed with valves and unions everywhere
for easy maintenance. I have had this problem since the tank was
setup, but have found no leaks. I know some would say a Mag 9 is
too much for the current overflows, but I know of others who run
Mag 12's w/o issues, I have followed their sump designs, but
still no favorable results. <It is not so much that the
overflows won't handle the pump as a return (once plumbing
and head pressure is accounted for), it is that you will be
pushing the limits of these overflows with no redundancy/safety
factor with this.> The Mag 9 return is split off and feeds my
display refugium as well, there are bubbles in there too. I know
for fact that the bubbles are coming from the sump as I can see
them passing through the bubble traps. Any help would be greatly
appreciated. Thank you in advance for your valuable time. <If
you have tried everything in the FAQ's, then you experimented
with the most tried and true solutions. I would move your
refugium overflow line as far away from the Mag 9 as you can. I
understand wanting to keep it away from the skimmer pump, but a
drain line next to the return baffles will be an issue re
microbubbles. Filter socks on your drain lines can make all the
difference weeding these bubbles out. You can also fabricate
baffles of a sort for either the overflow lines, the return pump,
or both. For the overflow lines you will want something as simple
as a cup. Have the overflow pour into the cup with the top of the
cup 3/4' or so below the water level in the sump. This will
force the bubbles to the surface, eliminating many of them before
the water even transits the sump. With a pump baffle, it is the
same basic principle, just in reverse. You will want something
the pump can fit into such as a cheapy Gladware or something
similar (I used a plastic tea pitcher with a Mag 7). You will
want the top of the container to be out of the water with the
bottom sitting on the bottom of the sump. Then, you will need to
drill several 1' or so holes in one side of this container
near the bottom. You do not a high water flow through any one
hole. Now you can place the pump in the container and rotate the
container until the holes are in a position that takes in the
fewest bubbles possible. These both seem like hokey solutions,
but they do work and work well! If either of these
'baffles' work out, by all means, find something nicer if
you wish to use. Acrylic is easy enough to fabricate and make
your own manufactured looking baffles. The name of the game here
is to make the bubble work hard to get to your pump. Just get
creative! Welcome, I hope this helps out, Scott V.>
Re: Microbubbles in Sump 7/26/08 Thanks for the quick
reply, hope this follow-up finds you bright eyed. <2:30 a.m.,
can't sleep, so sure!> You are correct in that a sock
helped reduce the amount of bubbles, but elsewhere on WWM I read
not to filter the water before the skimmer, as it effects the
skimmers efficiency and also adds to the PO4 and nitrates.
<Really of no consequence if you clean the socks frequently. I
recommend buying a dozen or so (relatively cheap compared to
other equipment). This way you can change them out every day or
two and then just wash the whole lot at once. If the socks do the
trick or even just help, by all means use them! They will keep
your sump a bit more tidy also.> I adjusted the drain
everywhere from about 1" from the bottom of the sump to
about 1/2 way to the surface, not much change. I added a pitcher
to the drain in the sump, this had a limited effect. <Every
little move you do adds up/has a cumulative affect. If you have
such a big bubble issue with the baffles you already have, no one
thing will likely solve it, it will take a combination.> I am
working on finding a suitable container for the pump. I also
moved the refugium drain to just after the skimmer pump. I am
seeing about 1/2 the amount of bubbles now. <Half way
there!> Do you think a different sump design with taller/lower
baffles would be more helpful? <Your design is sound, but you
could perhaps add another baffle or two to make a longer path for
the bubbles if you have the room.> I have looked at the
designs of the off-the-shelf sumps, and they seem inferior to
what I have now, by having smaller and less baffles, so why am I
having this issue? <The X factor! I just helped an LFS setup a
40 gallon sump with 2000 gph+ flow through. There are no baffles
in the sump, a large (10' diameter, 26' tall) skimmer and
no bubble issues. Some have high flows through small volumes with
no bubbles, whilst others have low flow through large sumps with
major issues.> What could possibly be different in my system
that causes me to have these bubbles while others can basically
run w/o baffles and not see a single bubble? <For good measure
do check your return line for any small leaks. These can
introduce air into the line rather than leaking out water. Also,
do realize that certain additives, foods and/or vitamins can
increase the suspension of microbubbles much in the same way they
make a skimmer go crazy.> Water quality is great, and 10%
water changes are done every 10-12 days using RO. Could a certain
coral be causing this? <No.> I dare not list what I have
for there are 50+ pieces, none seem affected by this, but for
esthetics I would like clear water. Thank you in advance <I
understand my friend. Short of finding anything that may actually
cause the bubble issue, back to the creativity part of it. Make
as long and brutal path you can for the bubbles to reach your
return pump. It is a challenge and will be rewarding once you
accomplish your goal here. Do let us know how it all comes out,
very welcome, Scott V.>
|
|
Gas Bubble Disease? Exophthalmia f' also --
6/17/08 Hi crew, I recently purchased a flame angel and placed him
my 20 gallon quarantine tank. I was using two Whisper 10 filters. The
next morning i discovered what i initially thought to be popeye.
However after reading your site i found that if it occurred only in one
eye it was likely the result of trauma. <Actually... can be
bilateral... one-sided is often mechanical/damage in origin, both-sides
from environmental, pathogenic causes> Therefore i added some Epsom
salt and hoped for the swelling to go down. However, the next day, i
found the flame angel to have a clear (air bubble) right above his eye
(not on the eye, but more like the eyelid), It seems to be gas bubble
disease. However, I'm not sure what may have caused this and what I
need to do as far as treatment. <Very likely this bubble is derived
from collecting damage... being brought to the surface too
quickly...> I replaced my two whisper 10 filters with a Emperor 280
hoping that the GBD was a result of lack of aeration. (Please note my
emperor is a 280 gph and adds lots of surface agitation-not sure if its
too much because i am getting air bubbles-is this also harmful? <Not
likely at all> I read about microbubbles causing bends in the
fish-but not sure if this can be caused by a hang on the back filter)
<Again... not the cause here> Please let me know what i can do to
help the little guy? <Really, just time going by, good care. The
area around fishes (and our) eyes is highly-vascularized... The
"trapped air" will be re-solubilized in time.> Also please
let me know if the Emperor 280 microbubbles will cause problems?
<Have... Not a problem. Microbubbles are much smaller, produced by
mixing air and water tog. at high/er pressures> not sure if surface
agitation bubbles from a hang on the back filter are dangerous or that
that microbubbles only apply to canister and return pumps? <No>
Thank you. <Welcome. Bob Fenner>
Noise Level and
"Micro" Bubbles 4/29/08 Thanks for your
guidance in the past in setup. <You're welcome.> I have
two questions about my still lifeless tank. I have a used Dutch
AS 75 G flat back hex tank which I restained and varnished,
drilled for two 1.5 bulkheads in the top corners. 90 pounds of
very cured Live Fiji rock. I have installed it with two overflow
PVC 1.5 pipes running from L's at the bulkhead. Each L has a
1/4 inch John Guest Air valve to allow air suction into the 90s
and prevent "burping". <Is the airline run down into
the drain line?> The pipes run down to a 30 gallon 30X18X12
sump/refugium, which is turning out to be too tall. One pipe goes
directly to the 12 inch ASM G2 skimmer chamber (right side of
sump); one passes the 9 inch refugium (left side of sump) with a
teed 3/4 inch ball valve dropping a few gph into the fuge, and
then continues to the skimmer chamber. Middle chamber is a 6 inch
pump chamber housing an OR6500 pump. Bubble trap baffles between
the skimmer and the pump chamber, although I made these too
narrow and may be promoting too rapid flow. <This can be a
problem with not enough dwell time through the baffles to allow
the bubbles to escape. Foam between two of the baffles can make a
huge difference.> Exhaust enters the sump below the waterline
from the 2 1.5 drain lines but is dropping a lot of bubbles.
<They will, this needs to be managed.> Some appear to be
making it past the trap and back into the tank. I did not build a
bubble chamber for the skimmer section, and I have not employed
socks, because the sump is so tall I would have a hard time
accessing/changing them, and would turn them into nitrate
sources. <This too can be a big help for you. You will need
either a filter sock (even if it is a pain to change) or to
fabricate something your drains can dump into forcing the water
and air to come back up before transiting the rest of the sump. I
used to have my overflow dump into a 1 liter bottle with the top
cut off for this purpose!> OR6500 pumps 1.25 line out through
6 inches of flex, threaded connection, union, ball valve, 2 45s,
3 foot rise, tees at the top of the tank into two 1s and drops
water into the tank about an inch below the surface. Both sides
are blasting microbubbles. <Frustrating.> In order to
reduce bubbles I have tried vaselining pressure-side joints to
check for any venturi above the sump waterline and found none. I
have damped flow down from the refugium and seen minimal impact.
I suspect the problem is with the volume speed through the
baffles. <It is sounding that way.> So much for background:
1) Short of reengineering my sump, which may be inevitable, what
other suggestions can you offer to reduce bubbles ?2) I have not
seen much foam or skimmate in my ASM. I only have a few hermits
and snails aside from the LR so there is not much to skim. Is it
true that fresh salt water takes some time to "ripen"
and reduce surface tension and that the skimmer and bubbles will
improve over time? <Yes, more of the components in the tank
being new with manufacturing residues floating about.> 3) I
don't have overflow boxes, just two 90s acting as drains
which are currently level with the waterline. They are loud. Is
there any trick to minimize their noise level? <First, be sure
the open end of the elbow is pointing down into the water. This
will keep the inside of the line from being exposed to the
atmosphere and your ears. Next you may need to experiment a bit
with the air inlets on the elbows. John Guest fittings are nice,
but you will need to be able to run the airline down into the
elbow a bit. How far down for your case it the experimental part,
you will need to play with this distance until the overflow is
quiet. Generally 4' down in from the top of the elbow will
get you fairly close for this amount of flow. Your drains are
sized well for this pump, you can get these quiet.> Thanks, as
always, John. <Welcome John. You have a bit of playing to do,
but this flow can be managed through a sump this size. It is just
all about directing it, making the bubbles work around obstacles
to get into the return pump. Keep with it, good luck, Scott
V.>
Re: Noise Level and "Micro" Bubbles
5/6/08 Thanks for your guidance in the past in setup.
<You're welcome.> I have two questions about my still
lifeless tank. I have a used Dutch AS 75 G flat back hex tank
which I restained and varnished, drilled for two 1.5 bulkheads in
the top corners. 90 pounds of very cured Live Fiji rock. I have
installed it with two overflow PVC 1.5 pipes running from L's
at the bulkhead. Each L has a 1/4 inch John Guest Air valve to
allow air suction into the 90s and prevent "burping".
<Is the airline run down into the drain line?> {no, just a
gate valve on the ell. I will extend the line down into the pipe
4 inches} <<This will make a big difference.>> The
pipes run down to a 30 gallon 30X18X12 sump/refugium, which is
turning out to be too tall. One pipe goes directly to the 12 inch
ASM G2 skimmer chamber (right side of sump); one passes the 9
inch refugium (left side of sump) with a teed 3/4 inch ball valve
dropping a few gph into the fuge, and then continues to the
skimmer chamber. Middle chamber is a 6 inch pump chamber housing
an OR6500 pump. Bubble trap baffles between the skimmer and the
pump chamber, although I made these too narrow and may be
promoting too rapid flow. <This can be a problem with not
enough dwell time through the baffles to allow the bubbles to
escape. Foam between two of the baffles can make a
difference.> {Wouldn't foam slow flow further? }
<<No, it will just serve the purpose to trap bubbles. Use
the coarser filter type foams.>> Exhaust enters the sump
below the waterline from the 2 1.5 drain lines but is dropping a
lot of bubbles. <They will, this needs to be managed.>
{OK..........} Some appear to be making it past the trap and back
into the tank. I did not build a bubble chamber for the skimmer
section, and I have not employed socks, because the sump is so
tall I would have a hard time accessing/changing them, and would
turn them into nitrate sources. <This too can be a big help
for you. You will need either a filter sock (even if it is a pain
to change) or to fabricate something your drains can dump into
forcing the water and air to come back up before transiting the
rest of the sump. I used to have my overflow dump into a 1 liter
bottle with the top cut off for this purpose!> {My space is
cramped with a gate valve modded G2 but I will see if I can
squeeze something in. } <<Even a small cup that forces the
air back up before the water is allowed to flow through the sump
can have an impact.>> OR6500 pumps 1.25 line out through 6
inches of flex, threaded connection, union, ball valve, 2 45s, 3
foot rise, tees at the top of the tank into two 1s and drops
water into the tank about an inch below the surface. Both sides
are blasting microbubbles. <Frustrating.> {Yup} In order to
reduce bubbles I have tried vaselining pressure-side joints to
check for any venturi above the sump waterline and found none. I
have damped flow down from the refugium and seen minimal impact.
I suspect the problem is with the volume speed through the
baffles. <It is sounding that way.> {Yup.} So much for
background: 1) Short of reengineering my sump, which may be
inevitable, what other suggestions can you offer to reduce
bubbles ?2) I have not seen much foam or skimmate in my ASM. I
only have a few hermits and snails aside from the LR so there is
not much to skim. Is it true that fresh salt water takes some
time to "ripen" and reduce surface tension and that the
skimmer and bubbles will improve over time? <Yes, more of the
components in the tank being new with manufacturing residues
floating about.> {Actually only the Sedra is new. Everything
else including the g2 body is used.} <<Even that can impact
skimmer performance, or you just don't have much to skim as
you mentioned. You're water tests will tell you
which.>> 3) I don't have overflow boxes, just two 90s
acting as drains which are currently level with the waterline.
They are loud. Is there any trick to minimize their noise level?
<First, be sure the open end of the elbow is pointing down
into the water. This will keep the inside of the line from being
exposed to the atmosphere and your ears. > {Are you saying
facing the tank bottom? Thant would place my overflows 8 inches
below the waterline? Or are you simply saying 45 degrees from
vertical like 10:30 and 1:30? } <<However far you need to
rotate them so the open end is underwater. Without boxes you may
have to construct a little standpipe to get the desired water
level. Be creative!>> <Next you may need to experiment a
bit with the air inlets on the elbows. John Guest fittings are
nice, but you will need to be able to run the airline down into
the elbow a bit. How far down for your case it the experimental
part, you will need to play with this distance until the overflow
is quiet. Generally 4" down in from the top of the elbow
will get you fairly close for this amount of flow. Your drains
are sized well for this pump, you can get these quiet.>
Thanks, as always, John. <Welcome John. You have a bit of
playing to do, but this flow can be managed through a sump this
size. It is just all about directing it, making the bubbles work
around obstacles to get into the return pump. Keep with it, good
luck, Scott V.> Thanks for your help. {Thanks. I will try
these suggestions.} <<Welcome, good luck, Scott
V.>>
|
Plumbing/Battling Micro Bubbles 4/10/08
Hello to the crew, <And good day to you, Jeff> I was hoping
someone could help me with a closed loop issue. I am using the
design from Melve's reef site where the water is drawn out of
the overflow chamber in the tank. I have a 72 gal bow front with
the standard overflow kit probably about 2 to 3 gallons (the tank
is drilled for overflow 2 holes on bottom of tank, but not for
closed loop). I have a Durso in the over flow so the chamber
stays pretty full. I have a 20 gallon long sump with 3 chambers.
I am using a Gen x mak-4 external (3/4" in/output) pump
located under the tank. The loop is plumbed with
¾" PVC and the outputs are ½". I
currently have 3 outputs set up for the closed loop. I can get
the pump primed and it works well aside micro bubbles. My issue
is with micro bubbles. There are so many it is hard to see the
back of the tank. I had 4 outputs, I went to three and I still
have micro bubbles. I went back and made sure I had all the
plumbing sealed that is not underwater. I used airline tubing to
listen for leaks and could not find any. I wrapped filter media
around the intake pipe on the system and placed filter media on
the inside of the overflow so the water entering the overflow is
not splashing but I am still getting tons of micro bubbles. They
seemed to get worse when I resealed the plumbing. I am out of
ideas and can not figure out where the bubbles are coming from. I
was wondering if you had any other suggestions to get rid of the
bubbles. If not I guess I will have to settle for power heads and
sue the pump as a fancy door stop. Thanks for all your help and
again great site!!! <Your sump is more than likely full of
bubbles from the overflow. I would isolate the section where the
pump intake is located with a piece of foam whereby all water
must pass through the foam to get to the pump intake. See if that
doesn't help the matter. Also ensure the sump water level is
high enough so a vortex isn't created above the pump
intake.> Kind Regards <Thank you, James (Salty Dog)>
Jeff
Re: Plumbing/Battling Micro Bubbles 4/11/08
Hello again, <Hi Jeff> I think there was some miss
understanding on my set up. The intake for the closed loop is
located in the overflow chamber in the main tank. The intake is a
6 inch section of PVC with many holes drilled in it. It pulls
water out of the overflow box in the tank, down to the pump and
back into the main tank. The sump is not involved. <Will be
difficult here to completely eliminate the micro bubbles. Are any
of the holes in the 6 inch section exposed to air? All holes need
to be completely submerged.> As I mentioned I have wrapped the
loop intake with filter media, it is blue on one side and white
on the other, so all water entering the loop has to pass through
the filter media. I have also placed some filter media along the
inside of the overflow box so there is no splashing as the water
enters the overflow. You mentioned using foam, would this be any
different then using the filter media? Would the foam be denser
and stop more bubbles? Any special foam or will home depot have
the right stuff? <There are round foam sleeves available that
slide directly over the intake tube will should reduce the micro
bubbles a great deal. The availability will depend on the
diameter/size of your intake tube. Example here.
http://www.premiumaquatics.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=PM-F46B&Category_Code=GFI
In your particular set up, I believe it will be difficult to
completely eliminate the micro bubbles. You may also want to try
throttling down the return from the pump. You may be trying to
pump out more water than is available to the pump. This will
cause pump cavitation which will cause this problem. Try the foam
sleeve for sure, will help.> Thanks again for all your help.
<You're welcome. James (Salty Dog)> Jeff Amato
|
Bubbles, Bubbles, Bubbles. 2/28/08 Good Morning
WWM Crew! <Hello Mike.> I have a filtration issue I was hoping to
get some input on. <OK> In my 125g FOWLR tank I am currently
using two Aquaclear 110 filters along with two Hydor Koralia 4
powerheads for circulation. The issue is with the Aquaclear 110s. The
water return, being the "waterfall" type of return, is
creating massive amounts of bubbles from both filters upon return into
the tank, which are then sent shooting all over the tank by the two
powerheads. <Not a good thing to have.> It's really just an
aesthetic issue really (I hope), and the tank just doesn't
"look right" to me. Also, is there any issues for the fish
and/or my inverts (hermits, peppermint shrimp, starfish) with these
bubbles? <It can be, see http://www.wetwebmedia.com/bubtroubfaqs.htm
and the other related FAQ's for more info on this.> I have
raised the water level to the limit (just slightly under the return
flow), and it has helped a little, but it is still a big issue. <Can
you raise it up to the return flow to prevent the drop/splashing?> I
was wondering if there was any way to modify the filters to change the
return water flow and cut down (or in a perfect world eliminate) the
bubbles? I was hoping to not have to go to a new filter, and be able to
make the existing filters work somehow (with less bubbles). <Some
hang on the back skimmers use boxes inside the tank to prevent these
bubbles and they are fairly effective. You just find a small plastic
container that will capture the water coming out of the filter and cut
the bottom out. Then replace the bottom of the container with some
filter foam. This will drastically help your bubble issues. Do be sure
the top of this box is lower than the top of your tank, giving the
water somewhere to go should the box overflow.> I would appreciate
any help and suggestions you could provide. As always, thank you for
the help and your time. Mike P. <Welcome, do try raising the water
level a bit more first, this should really do the trick. Good luck,
Scott V.>
AquaC EV240 Producing Microbubbles 2/16/08 Hello
Gents - and thanks again for the fantastic resource. If only we all
followed all the advice you give us! <Heee'¦and if gas were
back to $1 a gallon!> Here's my dilemma - I have a 150XH fish
only tank with a large wet dry and a Living Color coral insert. I run
an Aqua C EV 240 on my reef and have one for this tank as well. I
installed a new wet dry this week. Problem is that the skimmer is
putting a tone of micro bubbles back into the display. <Was it doing
this before the new wet/dry? The same manufacturing residues/oils that
can cause a new skimmer to spit out microbubbles are present in the new
sump. You may just need some time.> The sump is as follows -
40" long. From right to left, the tank drains into a 26" area
of bio balls. I don't have enough room in the cabinet, so I use a
submersible Mag9 as the return pump. Due to the fact that the last area
of the sump is the only 'open' area, it's crowded. I have
the Mag 9 tank return pump, the Ev240 and the Mag 18 that feeds the
240. <According to the AquaC website this pump overdrives this
skimmer and may need to be throttled down a bit. This could be playing
a factor in bubble return.> The skimmer water returns right to the
area where the tank return pump is. <Tough situation, even the
slightest amount of bubbles will be returned to the tank.>
Unfortunately, I have VERY little space in that open area so I'm
hoping to solve this problem. Any ideas? I can call Jason Kim on Monday
as well. Thanks J <I would definitely contact Jason Kim for his
input. In the meantime, you may want to try either some filter foam or
filter sock types of materials between the skimmer output and the
return pump to help catch the bubbles. Welcome and good luck, Scott
V.>
Micro-bubbles/gas-bubble disease 2/15/08
Hi, <Hello Ryan> I've been breeding marines for a while
and I recently set-up a 10 x 55g system to house the majority of
my common broodstock (clowns, Dottybacks etc.) and I have been
having a bit of a problem with micro-bubbles. I have tried many
things to try and rectify this problem and am starting to suspect
that I purely have too much flow going through the system. I have
30,000 LPH at 2m head height, coming from a large Onga (Aussie
brand pool pump) magnetic drive pump. <Mmm... I would use
something else... you don't need the pressure this device
produces, nor to pay for it> I am going to order another
smaller (23,000 LPH) <Again, I'd look into something with
a different flow/pressure profile... see an outfit that sells
pumps for other purposes than pools> to see if this fixes the
problem but in the meantime I am concerned about the broodstock I
have already added to this system. How serious is gas-bubble
disease for marine fish <Very> and what kind of exposure to
micro-bubbles over what kind of period of time causes this?
<Just a small exposure in a period of minutes can be
deadly> Are can't seem to find a definitive answer. Even
on your 'bubble trouble' FAQ's one person is told
that micro-bubbles really are anything to be concerned about
where another is told that they could kill your fish. <Have
seen the latter on a few occasions... There are papers written on
the topic, gear devised to out-gas water...> I can't see
any obvious physical problems with my fish. The micro-bubbles
seem to come out different returns depending on what I fiddle
with and while it doesn't seem to bother some fish in others
it seems to really disturb the fish, decreasing their appetite
and causing them to withdraw into their tanks/decor. Thanks in
advance, Ryan. <Do look for "college level" general
texts on aquaculture... both the issues of gas embolism/disease
and aeration/gas saturation. Bob Fenner>
Re: Micro-bubbles/gas-bubble disease, ScottV,
your input as well please re Pump sel., pb 2/17/08 Hello Bob,
Thanks for your time, it's much appreciated. I have turned
this system off for the moment and just added a few hang-ons
filters/skimmers to the occupied tanks to keep them running and
added smaller pumps to keep the systems filters alive. I know it
wasn't an great idea to put fish in before I had all the
kinks worked out but as some of my original tanks were originally
in the area where the new system is now located I had to play
'musical tanks', setting the system up around the old
tanks etc, moving broodstock into the new systems tanks while I
plumbed and completed the system around it. So far only one fish
(of course a wild-caught spawning black ocellaris female :() is
still 'sulking' from this bubble problem, I'm hoping
she improves, any advise on this front? <Really, only time
going by... unfortunately. Stable, optimized conditions...
hope> To be honest picking a pump for this system was the
hardest thing I have had to do in that set-up. It's not
something I have had personal experience with and was not
something I had any luck researching in the usual places. The
Onga pump I did purchase is one recommended by one of the biggest
aquaculture companies in Aus and seemed comparable to a pump used
in a similar system in a LFS I frequent. <Mmm... much to state
here. Perhaps the gist of what I'd like to made known is
posted here: http://wetwebmedia.com/PondSubWebIndex/pdpumps.htm
and the Related FAQs link re above> I am having a hard time
understanding the difference between some of the flow rates of
these large pumps, one persons 30,000 LPH at 2m head height seems
very different to someone else's, is the best way to compare
them purely by the power consumption of a particular style of
pump? <Mmm, no my friend... Am wondering where we should start
in this discussion. "Power curves" are available for
most all pumps... But generally just knowing the approximate
volume of flow at a given/stated total dynamic head suffices...
My concerns are that you get good value in terms of what pressure
you really need (likely little, and are paying a premium for much
higher pressure) along with the usual need for chemical
inactivity, long-life/service... The higher pressure coefficient
too often figures into induced air-entraining issues (e.g.
microbubbles) as well... Do read the above citation... and
we'll chat further> Would something like a ReeFlo
Hammerhead pump of 335w rated at 22,040 LPH at 0 head height be
more what I am looking for, that brand is the only one I found
reasonable info on but I thought they size was too small.
<Mmm, for what application/s?> The system is set-up on two
levels with the top level being around 7ft off the ground and the
bottom about 3ft. I am using 40mm pipe for the incoming lines and
25mm-50mm for the of the outgoing. Other pumps available to me
are the Lifeguard Seahorse's, RK2's, <Ahhh! These I am
very familiar with... re-packaged Baldor's... from some
friends/associates from many years back... I do strongly
encourage your looking into this line. VERY reliable, quiet,
energy-efficient (this last is extremely important)> and
LINK's, none of which I was able to find much info on, if
any. I had hope to put a reasonable amount of flow through this
system, I plumbed it to take it <Mmm, actually, some of the
returns/drains, at 25mm, are not all that large> but even in a
system like this is it better to follow the general rule of reef
tanks and have the majority of the flow in the tank coming from
internal pumps and the like? <Mmm, no... definitely not.
Commercial concerns almost never rely on these secondary
systems> Thanks again for the help, I was so tempted to ask a
few of these questions while I was doing this but they seemed
like things I should have known. <An excellent idea to check
ones assumptions/understandings with others of similar
background, interest... who can/will help. I do hope our Scott
Vallembois will chime in here, as he and Eric Russell are most up
to date in terms of these issues> On another note, I'm not
sure if you remember but a while ago I sent some pics of my
Mccullochi Clownfish to include in the clownfish section, <Ah,
yes> I think you replied at the time. Since then I have had
some small success and raised some offspring, if pictures of the
first tank-bred Mccullochi's are of any interest I would be
happy to send a few over. <Thank you for this kind offer.
Unfortunately, due to so much travel, I only keep freshwater
nowadays> I could also replace the original pic with a nicer
one with a nice anemone backdrop:), I sent a couple of examples,
maybe not the best ID shots but a couple of my personal
favourites. Kind Regards, Ryan Dwyer. <Am going to run this as
our pic of the day. Cheers, Bob Fenner>
Re: Micro-bubbles/gas-bubble disease, ScottV, your input as
well please re Pump sel., pb 2/17/08 Hello Bob, Thanks for
your time, it's much appreciated. I have turned this system
off for the moment and just added a few hang-ons filters/skimmers
to the occupied tanks to keep them running and added smaller
pumps to keep the systems filters alive. I know it wasn't an
great idea to put fish in before I had all the kinks worked out
but as some of my original tanks were originally in the area
where the new system is now located I had to play 'musical
tanks', setting the system up around the old tanks etc,
moving broodstock into the new systems tanks while I plumbed and
completed the system around it. So far only one fish (of course a
wild-caught spawning black ocellaris female :() is still
'sulking' from this bubble problem, I'm hoping she
improves, any advise on this front? <Really, only time going
by... unfortunately. Stable, optimized conditions... hope> To
be honest picking a pump for this system was the hardest thing I
have had to do in that set-up. It's not something I have had
personal experience with and was not something I had any luck
researching in the usual places. The Onga pump I did purchase is
one recommended by one of the biggest aquaculture companies in
Aus and seemed comparable to a pump used in a similar system in a
LFS I frequent. <Mmm... much to state here. Perhaps the gist
of what I'd like to made known is posted here:
http://wetwebmedia.com/PondSubWebIndex/pdpumps.htm and the
Related FAQs link re above> <<This pump can work, but is
unnecessarily expensive to run. I have walked into many the LFS
that could save upwards of $400+ per month in my estimation
solely by choosing different pump than the use.>> I am
having a hard time understanding the difference between some of
the flow rates of these large pumps, one persons 30,000 LPH at 2m
head height seems very different to someone else's, is the
best way to compare them purely by the power consumption of a
particular style of pump? <Mmm, no my friend... Am wondering
where we should start in this discussion. "Power
curves" are available for most all pumps... But generally
just knowing the approximate volume of flow at a given/stated
total dynamic head suffices... My concerns are that you get good
value in terms of what pressure you really need (likely little,
and are paying a premium for much higher pressure) along with the
usual need for chemical inactivity, long-life/service... The
higher pressure coefficient too often figures into induced
air-entraining issues (e.g. microbubbles) as well... Do read the
above citation... and we'll chat further> <<I have
added a few links with examples of the flow charts mentioned at
the end of this correspondence.>> Would something like a
ReeFlo Hammerhead pump of 335w rated at 22,040 LPH at 0 head
height be more what I am looking for, that brand is the only one
I found reasonable info on but I thought they size was too small.
<Mmm, for what application/s?> <<I would encourage
you to invest in two smaller pumps for redundancy's sake. If
one goes out you will still have one up and running while it is
repaired. You will also likely manage to get more flow for less
power consumed this way.>> The system is set-up on two
levels with the top level being around 7ft off the ground and the
bottom about 3ft. I am using 40mm pipe for the incoming lines and
25mm-50mm for the of the outgoing. Other pumps available to me
are the Lifeguard Seahorse's, RK2's, <Ahhh! These I am
very familiar with... re-packaged Baldor's... from some
friends/associates from many years back... I do strongly
encourage your looking into this line. VERY reliable, quiet,
energy-efficient (this last is extremely important)>
<<The Baldor based pumps are hands down my favorite for
high flow vs. power input (very quiet and reliable to boot). Also
consider looking at the Dolphin line of pumps, they do offer a
great variety of flow biased pumps. Keep in mind what you have
going on is not what would be considered a high pressure
application from a pump's point of view. You will want to
look toward the more flow biased offerings rather than pressure
biased. As Bob stated, you will just waste power and money using
the pressure rated versions here.>> and LINK's, none of
which I was able to find much info on, if any. I had hope to put
a reasonable amount of flow through this system, I plumbed it to
take it <Mmm, actually, some of the returns/drains, at 25mm,
are not all that large> <<A 25mm (inner diameter) drain
will only accommodate around 1150 LPH safely. The larger 50mm up
to about 4600 LPH, there is a huge difference. You will want to
cut your cumulative flow down to about 12000 LPH or drill
more/larger drains.>> but even in a system like this is it
better to follow the general rule of reef tanks and have the
majority of the flow in the tank coming from internal pumps and
the like? <Mmm, no... definitely not. Commercial concerns
almost never rely on these secondary systems> <<This
brings my attention back to where all this flow is being
processed. How large is your sump/filtration tank? Regardless of
how much flow you run through it you should be able to set it up
to not return micro bubbles to your tanks. If it is simply too
small to disperse the bubbles, cutting the flow back roughly 25%
will likely not do the trick. You may need a larger sump area or
need to rework whatever you have to keep bubbles out of your
return. Something as simple as a filter sock over the drain lines
can work wonders in getting these bubbles out. Also be sure that
the end of each line is submerged, if it is draining into the
sump above the water level it is just adding to the problem. Also
be sure that all your plumbing connections are actually
watertight. A return can appear watertight (not leaking) because
it is actually introducing air into the line rather than leaking
water out of it. The closer to the pump, the more likely this
scenario is to be playing out, at the pvc/pump joint in
particular. Do also be sure that any pump's intake is
unrestricted. If you need to control flow from the pump, do so
from the output end.>> Thanks again for the help, I was so
tempted to ask a few of these questions while I was doing this
but they seemed like things I should have known. <An excellent
idea to check ones assumptions/understandings with others of
similar background, interest... who can/will help. I do hope our
Scott Vallembois will chime in here, as he and Eric Russell are
most up to date in terms of these issues> On another note,
I'm not sure if you remember but a while ago I sent some pics
of my Mccullochi Clownfish to include in the clownfish section,
<Ah, yes> I think you replied at the time. Since then I
have had some small success and raised some offspring, if
pictures of the first tank-bred Mccullochi's are of any
interest I would be happy to send a few over. <Thank you for
this kind offer. Unfortunately, due to so much travel, I only
keep freshwater nowadays> I could also replace the original
pic with a nicer one with a nice anemone backdrop:), I sent a
couple of examples, maybe not the best ID shots but a couple of
my personal favourites. Kind Regards, Ryan Dwyer. <Am going to
run this as our pic of the day. Cheers, Bob Fenner> <<I
hope this helps out, the links below should help also, there is
much good information regarding pump flow and how to choose/apply
on the Reeflo site in particular. The RK2 offerings are very
similar to these. Good luck, Scott V.>><Thank you Scott.
RMF< http://www.reeflopumps.com/flowbiasedpumps.html
http://www.azponds.com/new%20sequence.htm#Dolphin http://www.reefaquarium.com.au/index.php?p=productMore&iProduct=112
Re: Micro-bubbles/gas-bubble disease/Pumps and Plumbing
2/18/08 Hello Bob, Scott, <Scott with you again.> Thank
you both for your help, and your quick response, it's not
every day you get two experts helping you out. <Very welcome
Ryan.> My black ocellaris female I mentioned seems to becoming
more outgoing but still hasn't got her appetite back, I'm
just hoping an unrelated problem isn't the cause of this
behavior and that I should be treating her with something. <It
does sound as though she is improving, give it time.> Out of
my options for pumps it seems as though the RK2 range seems the
best one, it's just trying to work out which one is the best
for this situation. <OK, these are good pumps.> I should
have been more detailed in my description on my system but felt
like my reply was too long as it was. When I said my outgoing
plumbing is 25-50mm I meant that it came out of 25mm bulkheads
into 50mm pipes, as seen in pic 1. <I see, in this case it
appears you will be limited by the cumulative flow in the
50mm.> This pic shows one side of the system, the 6 other 55g
tanks run along the wall to the left. One thing I am going to
change to the plumbing in that pic is to add a 'breather'
to each side which can apparently help with my issues. <It
will prevent the drain lines from siphoning. I would also drill
put a siphon break on each individual drain. Looking at your
setup it would be easy enough to drill through the top of each
screen just tight enough for a small piece of tubing. Run that
3-4' down (you may need to slide it up and down to find just
the right spot) into the drain line and it will break the siphon
in the line. This is not necessary at low flows through the
drains, your setup will aspirate itself to some extent since the
drains are exposed to the atmosphere.> The incoming pipes run
in a similar way, through 40mm then to 25mm with a ball valve on
each tank to regulate the flow. I had also plumbed a couple of
lines to supply a couple of bio-ball chambers in the sump, a DSB
and an extra output to bleed any extra flow back to the sump if
the flow was too much. <OK> My sump was originally 6ft by
3ft in size; its main draw-back was it was only 14 inches high. I
had a real hard time tracking down anything in the dimensions I
was looking for. I had a spare 6ft by 2ft tank and I kind of wish
I had used that now, but it was a little too tall for my liking.
I am going to be setting up a number of systems like this one
(once I get this one working well) and for them I think I'll
have to get something custom made, just wish I had been patient
enough to do that for this system. When I started to suspect the
size of the sump was the cause of my bubble problems I plumbed
another 3ft by 2ft by 20inches tall tub into the 6ft one and ran
my outgoing plumbing through this first, to hopefully baffle the
problem. Each line running into the sump is submerged. I do have
a lot of pre-filter baffling the flow but if I still see bubbles
after downsizing the pump I'll try and attach filter socks. I
originally was a little concerned about trying to block so much
force directly. With both of the tubs joined together is this
still considered on the small size for the amount of flow?
<No, we are dealing with a fair amount of flow, but the
bubbles should be able to be dispersed over this run through the
sump. I would skip the filter socks, bad communication on my
part. I threw that out there as a fix for most home aquarists. In
your case I would consider something mechanical such as foam on
the return end of your sump to catch any bubbles that make it
through the run of the sump. Of course a thorough bubble trap
towards the return end helps too!> One of the first things I
tried to do to solve the problem was to find a possible air holes
drawing water into the incoming lines, concentrating around the
pump. I very carefully plumbed the incoming lines with high
pressure pvc glue so I couldn't see how any air could get
sucked in around such a seal so I suspected the pump itself, or
the bulkhead from the sump where this glue wasn't used. From
what I could tell this wasn't the problem, I even sealed
these fittings with silicone and saw no difference. <All are
possible causes and were worth mentioning, it sounds like we are
on the same page.> With all this in mind would you think a RK2
2120 (23,100 LPH) would be too powerful? <No, not when head
pressure/plumbing runs are accounted for. These pumps also do
well with throttling back if need be (on the output side); they
will even use a little less power this way.> Is the RK2 214C
(13,500) a better option? Any other major problems with my
design? <Do drill the siphon breaks/install the
'breathers'' . This will help your situation. You may
also consider replumbing the drains. The way the four tanks
appear to be configured in the picture you are going to be
limited to 4600lph through them, the flow capacity of the 50mm
line gravity fed, likely less with the run and fittings. You will
want either a larger line to combine the drains coming off the
tanks into or limit each 50mm line to input from four 25mm
drains. This will double the flow capacity in these four tanks,
follow the same principles in the other six.> Thanks again for
your help. Kind Regards Ryan Dwyer. <Welcome, do keep us
posted on how things go, Scott V.>
Re: Micro-bubbles/gas-bubble disease/Pumps and
Plumbing 2/20/08 Hi Scott, <Hello again Ryan.> Things
seem to be improving here. My female black ocellaris is now
eating hungrily again, which I am very happy about. I got
extremely lucky getting a wild-caught black ocellaris pair in the
first place and I certainly can't replace them. This has
seemed to have put this pair off spawning, but at least they are
alive. <Great to hear the situation has improved.> Thanks
for your input on my system design, I was concerned I may have
made some major stuff ups but it seems I didn't do too badly.
Makes it much easier to plan for my future set-ups with your
advice on board. I have added one 'breather' to each
arm/stand of the system, should I have added one to each side of
each arm/stand? <You will want to aspirate the line in some
way anywhere the gravity fed lines travel down any significant
amount to keep the system draining consistently.> This has
improved things considerably, I started the system back-up just
to see what difference it made and for the first day I got
minimal bubbles, like what you would see if you added a new
hang-on skimmer to a tank. Today after running for a day the
amount of bubbles are increasing, I think it must be an
accumulative affect. I have ordered the RK2 23,100 so I am
figuring with this drop in flow I should see the last of these
nasty bubbles. <Can you throttle your current pump back to
test this first?> Thanks for the advice on the siphon breaks,
I saw it mentioned in the FAQs and tried to just cable tie the
hose to the side of the screen, you way works a lot better. I
think I might have to re-plumb the drains, I am getting a bit of
water bubbling up through the bottom standpipes if the total flow
through that line is too great. I'm not sure if I should wait
to see how the new pump goes, or just re-plumb it while I swap
the pumps over. <Either way, replumbing is not the most fun
thing in the world, but at least it is not too difficult.>
Thanks again for your input. Kind Regards, Ryan Dwyer.
<Welcome, do let us know how it all sorts out, Scott
V.>
|
|
|