Crypt non cures 2

FAQs on Marine Ich, White Spot, Cryptocaryoniasis Phony/Non-Cures 2

icky ich! 5-nitroimadazoles unreliability in the real world 9/1/2013
Good afternoon! My husband and I are new to the hobby and we have been learning some hard lessons as we go. like Kick Ich is @@@@ and quarantine everything!!!
<Heeeee! Well put!>
So, after reading some information on wwm, we have decided we are goin to fallow our main 90 gallon tank. the question is, what water would we need to use to set up our two 29 gallon quarantine tanks?
<... Near Seawater (NSW) is best; perhaps with reduced spg/salinity>
One will be housing a dognose puffer and an snowflake eel while the other tank will have a medium yellow tang, coral beauty, and a harlequin bass. Everyone sadly is showing signs of ich so the tang, beauty and bass will be in treatment in one of these tanks using cuprimene. The dogface puffer is alsmost done with treatment with cuprimene in a 10 gallon hospital tank.
<Wow; small volume... Cupramine is quite toxic to puffers... am sure you're monitoring water quality closely>
My concern is the snowflake eel. I have read that they are NOT to be treated with copper treatments. What is the best way to ensure that he can be rid of ich that may be attached to him?
<Mmm, better at this point to "shoot for" a "balance"... Please read here:
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/parasittkfaq2.htm
Would freshwater dip be effective for this?
<Might help; though morays/muraenids are "very slimy", advanced/entrenched protozoan infestations aren't much "treated" via such>
We eventually want to hopefully house the puffer and the eel together while the tank is going fallow for a few months. but we don't want to have the eel carry the evil ich in the water with the puffer.
<Ah yes; understood... Well; like "real life" such "evils" aren't really 100% here, not here, but more becoming, unbecoming... best to strike the aforementioned balance... Keep the system optimized, stable, enhance the health of the livestock through good nutrition, maintenance... Use your own lives, practices as a model>
Also, once we are done with the copper treatments, can these tanks be used by using CupriSorb to remove the copper for the additional months while the main tank is fallowing (no fish being removed after copper treatment completed) ?
<Ah yes>
Thanks!
Kristina and David
<Welcome! Bob Fenner>
Re: icky ich! 9/2/2013
Thank you so much for this information!! I do have one last question (couldn't find an answer online), how long does the kick ich
<Ruby Reef?... this product is unreliable ... as are all "reef safe" med.s. Stays for indeterminate lengths of time depending on the make up of the water, filtration; other aspects... akin to Metronidazole (related compound). See WWM re. BobF>
stay in the tank system? yesterday morning i realized that it may not be good for the fish so we immediately turned on the protein skimmer and did a good water change to try to get most of it out. How long would we need to wait to use that water to start a copper treatment in a different tank?
Thanks again for your help!

Treating Ick in display tank with Fish Vet No-Ich, 9/22/11
Hello Crew,
<Hi>
I appreciate your valuable site. It is my main resource. Usually I can find the answers, but I couldn't find the answer to the question I have. I was ignorant and did not use a quarantine tank when I brought my last fish, a Powder Brown Tang, into my system. I had been lucky up to that point. I know Tangs are highly susceptible to Ick, and I should have known better.
This is where I'm at. He came down with Ick about a week later. I've decided I will be setting up a 20 gallon QT tank and a separate 20 gallon hospital tank to be used from here on out as I should have done this to begin with. Lesson learned.
<Yep>
For this instance, I chose to try Fish Vet No-Ich in my display tank. It claims to be reef safe and effective. My fish are healthy, active and eating so I thought it might work. I've been dosing for about 2 weeks now.
I also use garlic for every feeding. I know it's not proven, but I like the idea of it and all my fish eat well.
<There is some recent thought that garlic can have a negative effect on a fish's kidneys, and 5-Nitroimidazole (No-Ich) can as well.>
All fish still seem healthy and are eating, and the only one that has shown any sign of Ick is the tang. It appears to be almost gone. I've been corresponding with Paul at Fish Vet, and plan to keep dosing daily until all signs of Ick are gone for a few days, then I'll cut back to every other day for a few more doses. The instructions state to remove carbon and shut off the skimmer, which I did, but I didn't like having my skimmer off for so long, even with water changes therefore I turned the skimmer back on and upped the doses as per the instructions. My question is, if the Fish Vet No-Ich works and there is no longer evidence of any parasites on my tang, how long should I wait once there is no evidence of parasites on any of my fish to be assured they are no longer present in my system?
<It's doubtful you will ever eliminate all the ich, especially if you don't run the tank fallow for 6+ weeks. Hopefully you will knock it down to a point where a fish's immune system will keep it healthy.>
I wasn't sure if this was the same situation as going fallow since the fish are still in the display.
<Is not.>
If the parasites do not attach to a host(due to great water parameters and strong healthy fish), they will die off even if there are fish in the tank, won't they?
<An aquarium is paradise to Cryptocaryon, the almost perfect environment, so some will probably always remain unless the tank is run fallow and all fish are treated elsewhere, and even that is not guarantee.>
All future introductions, once I am sure my tank is clear, will be dipped and put in QT for three weeks.
<4-6 weeks is better, covers the life-cycle of Cryptocaryon more completely.>
Thanks
Jenny
<5-Nitroimidazole is not one of my preferred treatments, I don't find it to be all that effective nor reef-safe, especially with deep sand beds as it is quite effective at killing anaerobic bacteria. Next time I would go with something from the quinine family of drugs, more effective and less collateral damage as long as you remove all snails, crabs, and shrimp.>
<Chris>
Re: Treating Ick in display tank with Fish Vet No-Ich 9/22/11
Thank you Chris,
I think I knew the answers before I asked. I'm just going to set up the hospital tank and let my tank go fallow. Thanks
Jenny
<Fallow is not a sure thing, but gives you the best chance to run an ich free system.>
<Chris>
Re: Treating Ick in display tank with Fish Vet No-Ich 9/22/11
Chris,
I found a product called Vertronex. It states it is more effective if used with half doses of malachite green and that it's reef safe as long as you remove clams. Have you heard of this treatment?
Jenny
<I have never heard of this product, nor could I find anything on the internet about it. Does it state what it's active ingredients are? If not I would not even think about using it. Malachite green is pretty toxic stuff, not something I would use. It had is day but there are now better and safer (for you as well as the fish) alternatives. With tangs I am a big fan of Chloroquine Phosphate, with Quinine Sulfate a second choice.
They are not cheap unfortunately, but they do work and are safer than most other treatments.>
<Chris>
Re: Treating Ick in display tank with Fish Vet No-Ich 9/23/11
Chris,
As long as it works, money's no object. It was my fault for not quarantining. Lesson well learned. Thanks again.
Jenny
<Sounds good.>
<Chris>

White spot outbreak 7/19/11
Hi guys, everything in my tank has been great for a good while now, until recently when my chevron tang started to get white spot. I thought it was just a bit of itch, so let it to go of its own accord, as I don't like to treat in the tank as its a reef tank and I don't want to mess with things too much.
<We ( you and I ) are of the same/similar philosophy>
However the white spot has now spread to my clowns and above all my Royal Gramma and my female Suntail Goby. I'm really worried about losing them and reluctant to try and remove them as it will be really hard, what with all the live rock and the stress that will ensue from this. Will Exodin work in this situation?
<Exodin... see the MSDS... Not effective... as in all other "reef safe" med.s for Protozoans.>
I've read a lot of threads and the consensus is quite conflicting, cheers guys
<You need to read, and act ASAP here. Start: http://wetwebmedia.com/QuinSciUseF.htm
Bob Fenner>
Regards Neil

Whitespot control/removal 2/7/11
Hi All
<Jim>
I have recently put a UV steriliser on my tank to control Whitespot
<Mmm, won't do this. Helps...>
from an outbreak I had after running the tank fallow for 5 weeks with the addition of my regal tang (I know they are Ich magnets).
I also run ozone with the tank also. I know the gold standard is to remove all fish and allow to go fallow again (this time for longer). However my quarantine tank is full with fish and I have some surgery coming up that won't allow me to lift heavy things for a week at least.
Sadly some of my stock show a few spots (but not a massive amount) and within a few days they are gone . What would your plan be here? Remove all stock and allow to go fallow? IS waiting for immunity a plan here too?
There are Lysmata shrimp in the tank.
<Mmm, read here: http://wetwebmedia.com/parasittkfaq2.htm and the linked files...>
UV and ozone does do a good job of stopping the infestation getting out of control.
<Agreed... can be of use>
Thanks Jim
<Welcome Bob>
Re: Whitespot control/removal 2/7/11
Thanks for the links Bob
<Welcome>
I will endeavour to slow the flow more through the UV and see if that helps.
<All a matter of degree...>
Fish seem healthy and do not seem to be adversely affected by a few white spots. I think quarantining will just be counter productive so I will up the ozone addition and slow the flow even further through the UV..
Sound like a plan?
Regards Jim
<Is one. B>

Re: re: Hey again and Happy New Year! Ich, temp...? 1/3/11
Ok thanks Bob. One other thing I am in question about is higher temperature speeding up the life cycle of Ich. My temp is around 76 normally and when I increase it to 80 Ich becomes rampant in the tank and
on my fish. From the research I've done on wwm.com I was lead to believe higher temps are better for Ich infested tanks, why is it getting worse and not better?
<... Umm... please include previous correspondence when writing us. Am so forgetful now-a-years that I can scant recall where my keys are (I try to put them in the same place)... 80 degrees is not "hot enough" to do much good... for either marine or freshwater Ich... See WWM re. BobF>
Re: Hey again and Happy New Year! Crypt trials 1/24/11
Hey Bob, I am so worried right now. I have a display tank infested in what looks like Ich. I have the space nor money to supply a QT tank for the 9 fish I have in my 90gal FOWLR so I had no choice but to treat my main display.
<A very poor idea. Impossible to "adjust" for local co-factors, chemical/physical interactions w/ treatment medications>
I have 0 inverts and 0 corals, live rock only. So I went ahead and dosed my tank with QS (as per your recommendation) . The directions to the label say : "tanks 50gal or larger dose 1/4 teaspoon per ten gallons for 5 days then a 25% water change before a second application for another 5 days totaling a full ten day treatment ". I followed the directions exactly and now what was a minor Ich outbreak turned into a major infestation.
<Likely the Quinine "never made it" here... was absorbed... by... "gunk">
Three fish in my tank have not a single spot but 5 have cloudy fins and what looks like a white substance flowing off of their bodies in the current of the water. Is this from too much QS exposure?
<Possibly>
The Ich was gone for most of the time during the treatment and now it has come back like this. Something is telling me its something else other than a parasite.
My hippo tang's eyes are protruding also and after seeing it was both eyes I am assuming it's not from scratching. I know the QS gets absorbed by the live rock but in a previous email you told me to a "minor extent", soil figured it would be effective enough to decrease the virulence of the parasite.
What does this sound like to you?
<Can't say exactly... but, highly probable just a re-cycling of Crypt>
The Ich was never this bad before the start of treatment. Now, all of a sudden after QS treatment....its worse.
Shouldn't it be better if anything? What do you suggest I do?
<... Read, quickly... on WWM re your options:
http://wetwebmedia.com/ichartmar.htm
and the linked files above... treat... in another system sans substrate, LR... BobF>
Thanks for being here for assistance.....Jay
Re: re: Hey again and Happy New Year! 1/24/11
Ok, so you think it will be ok to put 9 fish in a 20 gallon long?
<... no. Please search, read ahead of writing>
That's all I have and don't have the funds to afford anything else.
<Perhaps another aquarist, shop will help you... B>
Re: re: Hey again and Happy New Year! 1/24/11
Ok.....I had explained in the first email that I have the space nor the money to get a bigger QT. Maybe you misread parts of my first email.
<... saw this... hence my suggestion to seek help/others locally>
Re: re: Hey again and Happy New Year! 1/24/11
Ok, thank you.
<Welcome>
Re: re: Hey again and Happy New Year! QS use, value of quarantine et al SOPs 1/24/11
And Bob, just one more thing.....I'd like to comment on the whole "quarantine procedure ". The only way to avoid this catastrophe is to medicate all new arrivals regardless of signs of parasites being shown.
<Oh, I do agree... along w/ dips/baths... and vaccines>
This time around (since I messed up the first time with no QT), I was extremely cautious and careful as to not put a fish in my display (upon purchase) for a good 3 weeks of QT. I wanted to be sure there were no visible parasites and/or symptoms. Well, I failed......again! So this is telling me it is "luck of the draw " as far as whether or not a parasite will destroy your display. It is only a matter of time. This means that one of these fish was a carrier of velvet or Ich and showed no signs of the disease. So, if QS is as gentle and harmless as you say, why not recommend that every new fish gets a full treatment before hitting the display?
<Two considerations principally; the expense and fact that many (likely more) organisms/fishes would die from the protocol>
QT isn't a preventative practice, it is only a "temporary fix" of a disaster sure to come. Thank you for your time though.
<Do read this: http://wetwebmedia.com/AqBizSubWebIndex/ltrquartrdbiz.htm
Yes... a draft, campaign from more than 30 years ago. IF I could get the trade, in particular collectors and livestock wholesalers to just execute simple pH adjusted freshwater baths, we would eliminate some 95-98% of such external parasite issues. Our retail stores used this prophylaxis, and every collecting station, distribution I've been involved w/ has adopted this practice to its tremendous benefit. Convincing others? I'm still trying, not dead yet. BobF>
Re: re: Hey again and Happy New Year! Crypt... 1/25/11
Ok Bob.....I removed all fish and left tank with LR only and increased the temp to 90. Do you think a small flame angel, a 3" hippo tang, a 1.5" batfish, and a 2.5" Heniochus will be ok in a 20gal long with daily 25% water changes for 2.5 months?
<Not likely; try it and see>
None of the pet stores around me will take them and I don't have space for a bigger and/or additional tank.
<Rats! Maybe try Craigslist for help from fellow aquarists?>
Thanks
<Por nada. R>

Copper, Stocking, Marine... over and mis-stocked, Crypt self-induced issues 11/23/10
Hi Folks.
<Hi>
I read you article about searching WWM for answers first but to be honest I'm too scared to move on with my situation without getting a response from an expert.
<Ok>
My story is this. My 55 gallon tank had in it a Dogface Puffer, Porcupine Puffer, Japanese Surgeon Fish, Kole Tang and a Cleaner Wrasse, I know the Tangs needed a bigger tank but I am going to upgrade to a 90 or 110 UK gallon at the start of the New Year,
<This will not be large enough for your current livestock, the puffers need a larger tank than the tangs, and please don't buy another cleaner wrasse, http://www.wetwebmedia.com/labroide.htm >
I have about 40 pounds of Live rock which has a few finger corals on it but not many, and a CUC which sits at 16 Snails (13 Turbo Snails, 3 Bumble Bee Snails), 1 Emerald Crab and about 8 Red Legged Hermit Crabs, I have a TMC Protein Skimmer and an Aqua One Canister Filter and a sand bed about 2-3 inches deep.
<The puffers are going to take care of your snails and probably the crabs soon enough.>
My problem started a few weeks ago when I had an Ammonia spike and my Dogface got Ich, the next day I got to my LFS and was advised to try eSHa Wide Range Marine Treatment since it was reef safe,

by the next day I could see the Ich on the other fish, I treated the tank with the eSHa and the fish seemed to pick up a little for a day, I was also advised to use Amquel Plus to deal with the Ammonia which it did very good, I was told to dose the tank with the eSHa and re-dose a week later to pick up anything the first week missed, needless to say the eSHa didn't work in the long run as the fish picked up 1 day but went down the next with more Ich spots on them.
<Not unexpected.>
I quickly set up a hospital tank after both the Tangs died, I used a spare 15 gallon tank I had, I know it was too small but all my fish were small and I was at a last resort, I started hyper salinity
<Do you mean hyposalinity, as in less salt, hypersalinity would be more salt than normal and bad for the fish.>
and got some Waterlife Cuprazin from a LFS, I know both can't be used at the same time but by this time my fish were really at death's door so I was hoping the copper treatment would help
them a little till the hyper salinity could be started properly,
<Both tangs and puffers do not respond well to copper, http://www.wetwebmedia.com/crypttangs.htm , http://www.wetwebmedia.com/cryptpuffs.htm .>
I dropped my salt from 1.025 to 1.020 and was planning on dropping it more but by this time all the fish had died, I was gutted,
<This is not enough to be effective, which is what can make hyposalinity tricky, 1.009 is where you need to be to effectively combat the parasite.>
I only treated the tank 2 times with the copper, I added about 1.5ml twice, I used the Canister filter from my Display Tank as this was the only filtration I could get my hands on, my question is, how do I clean the Canister Filter and Thermometer properly so I don't have copper going back into my main tank, I know the filter Media will go in the bin, I have a Poly Filter in the canister at the moment and I have added some Carbon also, I'm unsure on the correct procedure to get the copper off the plastic Canister Filter so it will be safe to put back on my display tank,
<It should be fine after a good rinse.>
or is the amount of Copper I added so little I shouldn't have a problem. the Thermometer I have is a new 1 I bought for the Hospital Tank but I would like to use it so I can heat up my water for water changes and air the water for 24 hours.
<It should be fine.>
As I said at the start you have probably answered this question a few times but I'm scared I add my Canister Filter back to the Display Tank and kill everything I have in there including my Live Rock.
<This should not be a problem.>
Yours Sincerely
William Wilson.
eSHa Wide Range Treatment: http://www.eshalabs.com/oodinex.htm
Waterlife Cuprazin: http://www.waterlife.co.uk/waterlife/cuprazin.htm
<One of the quinine drugs is what I would use for treating puffers and tangs for Cryptocaryoniasis, it is tolerated much better than copper.>
<Chris>

Ich outbreak after trigger addition, vis a vis O3 use for Crypt prev. 10/7/10
Hi All
<Hiya Jim - Darrel here>
<->
Your thoughts as ever very welcome and well received.
<Ok, well, you're going to get some. I'm copying the Boss who may have a thought or two to add><<>>
Jim your UK aquarist here. I recently wrote about using ozone to assist in the defense against ICH. Well sadly after I added my Assasi trigger to my main display tank the two red sea clowns have a dusting of white spots again, as well as the trigger himself. There are territorial disputes (mainly at lights out when finding a place to sleep) which are evident by the large female shrouding the(half her size may I add) the trigger and dominating him. The male sort of joins in and the trigger semi puffs up but generally seems unfazed.
<The territorial disputes are normal and to be expected. The Cryptocaryon - not so much>
The fish feed well and don't appear to be breathing heavy or in any stress,
<But then, every infestation starts out with a few spots, don't they? Then they build from there>
'¦ the Ich is not what I'd call a major infection.
<But then again, another term for major infection can easily be the death of some fish><<It will be>>
The small male clown flicks occasionally but the Ich infestations do seem to die off after a few days when these disputes are resolved and regular feeding continued.
<Well, one theory that many aquarists share is that crypt, like the common cold, never goes away completely - but that healthy fish in a healthy system simply tolerate the few parasites, essentially shrugging them off, until or unless that fish gets debilitated in some way that allows the infection to take hold. If that is the case, the fish may show increased susceptibility during times of disputes. That said, the general experience in the hobby is that once they get a foothold, they don't ever just "go away" like you're describing>
I don't quarantine (yes I know it makes me a pariah). In the past as I've stated I have overcome every Ich infestation with strict water changes and vitamin/garlic soaked foods.
<Water changes are a well established technique for dealing with the free-swimming Tomites before they find a host. To me, the logistics of changing enough water with enough frequency to remove enough Tomites to actually affect the course of the infestation is daunting. Running the water through a higher wattage UV sterilizer and/or exposing a large flow of water to Ozone would seem to be less of an effort on your part and less stress on the fish, as well.>
<I also use Garlic to treat my fish and it {quote}SEEMS{quote} to work, especially with surgeonfishes '¦ but I'm unaware of any scientific basis for that belief. For all I know it could be something that just keeps me occupied while nature runs it's course, but like any religion or superstition of any primitive culture, we aquarists learn what we think we learn and stick with our beliefs for decades>
The ozone is backing up this theory I feel and while it doesn't let me off the hook with quarantine I know, I have to feel that more stress is caused by netting/hospitalizing/copper treatments than allowing a dispute to resolve and provide optimum environmental conditions to the treatment of this annoying parasite.
Your thoughts as ever very welcome and well received.
<Really? Well here are my thoughts:>
<It seems to me like an awfully mean thing to have done to an established tank with healthy fish.>
<It seems like bringing a person with H1N1 Influenza into your house and telling your family that after everyone adjusts to the new family member and at the same time recovers from the flu - then we'll all be happy. Unless one of us dies. Then not all of us will be happy.>
<Whether the stress of the disputes is causational in the Crypt outbreak or incidental, you're asking the fish to fight for their place in a disrupted natural order at the same time they're fighting a life threatening disease.>
<And you're doing this because it is too much trouble to place the Trigger in a separate tank for 6 weeks to let him get accustomed to your water and climate and to identify any potential diseases that he may have? And this is ON TOP of perhaps 4 or 5 dozen diseases, contagious and otherwise, many of which science has not yet identified that can be fatal to the new fish and others to which he has been exposed?>
<Jim, you say that not quarantining makes you a pariah. To be perfectly honest, Jim that is NOT the word that comes to my mind, but this is a family site>
<You asked for thoughts and those are mine. I do not, however, speak for Bob Fenner or Wet Web Media -- both of which, I'm sure, are grateful that I do not>
<Bob? Please correct me?>
<<I don't find anything factual to correct or profitably add Darrel. I do consider that Ozone might play some indirect roles in limiting diseases of various sorts, but I don't think its use, by and of itself will prevent infestations from spreading, nor cure extant ones. I would add a general link to our/WWM's Cryptocaryon archives: http://wetwebmedia.com/mardisindex.htm
scroll down... BobF>>

Ick, UV and QT, 7/6/10
Hi Team,
<Hello>
We have a Valentini puffer in a quarantine tank at present, who is showing signs of Ick. She is currently sharing the qt with two Chromis (no signs at present).
<But probably still infected.>
I've read a lot of discussion on Ick which says "a bare bottom tank for qt is only half the solution", and others which say "UV in a display tank is only half the solution".
Could they work well together as a whole solution - i.e.. a bare bottomed tank with good circulation, which passes its water through a UV to kill the cysts when they drop?
<A UV will not effect a cure, and a bare bottom tank alone does nothing but provide a suitable tank for chemotherapy.>
What are your thoughts? Do you think the UV will kill the cysts, as opposed to just the free-swimming parasites?
<Will not kill either reliably.>
(pH, ammonia, nitrite, nitrate all good in qt. Salinity is normal; I am hesitant to drop the salinity as I have read conflicting information on how this does/doesn't stress the fish over extended periods.)

Best regards,
Matt
<Chris>

In Need of Logical Advice for Regal Tang with Ich: Paracanthurus hepatus with crypt 6/22/2010
Hi All,
<Hi John.>
First of all, thank you for this site. I have never utilized the ask feature before, but I have read and found lots of excellent advice here that I have put into practice. Today, I basically need advice on what to do with my Regal and Yellow Tangs.
<Sure.>
About six weeks ago, I lost the last of my fish to a rather harsh strain of ich. From the first white-spot sighting until the death of the last fish was just over a week. Although I'm certain the chasing/catching was a stressful ordeal for them, I moved all the fish, with exception of the diamond goby and cleaner wrasse (neither of which were showing any symptoms), into quarantine and treated them with API Super Ich Cure (not my first choice, but it was the only thing I could find at the local shop).
<I'm not a fan.>
This treatment did not help, all the fish quarantined were dead within four days. I tried using a Kordon "reef-safe" treatment in the display tank; however, I'm fairly certain that it was a complete waste of money.

The diamond goby turned up missing two days later (found him under some rocks being eaten by the crabs. The cleaner wrasse lasted two days after that (I came home from work and found him being eaten as well).
Not wanting to treat the display with copper, I let the tank go fallow for 5+ weeks (allowing at least 28 days for the tomont stage, and several more days for the theront stage). In the meantime I acquired a Regal Tang and a Yellow Tang which I kept in quarantine for about three weeks. I would have kept them in longer, but the Regal Tang seemed to be a bit stressed from the tank-size (30 gallon).
<Not uncommon.>
Both were eating very well and showed no signs of disease or parasites....so, I did what I considered to be the "humane" thing, and moved them into the larger display tank (135 gallon). That was three days ago.
This morning when I saw the Regal Tang (under the blue LEDs), he had what appeared to be about 20-25 white-spots all over him. I will get a better look this afternoon when I get home, but if it is ich, I face a rather difficult decision. Should I try to catch them, put them back in quarantine and treat with copper? I'm afraid this might be very stressful (especially the catching part), or should I leave them, continue to feed well and hope for the best (I find this advice all over the internet in regards to Regals with ich)? If I do the latter, and the Tangs can fight off the ich, does that mean the ich will die without any other fish to host?....or is that just wishful/delusional thinking on my part?
<A bit of wishful thinking. Ich never truly goes away in any system, it just gets knocked down to an insignificant level.>
As of this morning, there were no white-spots that I could see on the Yellow Tang, but I might be in for a surprise when I get back home.
<Regal Tangs do tend to be more susceptible than others.>
I would really prefer not to lose these fish (if the ich is as bad as last time....I only have a few days). What is my best coarse of action at this point?
<If he still has the spots this afternoon, and it is on fact ich, I would get the fish out and treat with copper.>
Tank Specs: 135 gallon; running approximately 5 months; Ammonia: 0; Nitrites: 0; Nitrates: approx 10-15; PH: 8.3.
Tank inhabitants: Regal Tang (approx 2.5in); Yellow Tang (approx 2.5in); green star polyps (approx 2x3.5in); 130lbs live rock; 2 inches of crush coral; 10 Mexican Turbo Snails; 1 Zebra Turbo; 50 Nassarius Snails; 50 blue
leg hermits; 20 red leg hermits; 2 peppermint shrimp; 1 sand-sifting starfish (approx 2.5 in); 2 large bristle worms that I am not sure if I should keep or not (approx 6 in each).
Thanks,
<My Pleasure.>
John
<MikeV>

Ich Attack in Reef Tank?: Just say no.....It doesn't work... 4/29/2010
Hi Crew,
<Hi>
Our Powder Brown Tang broke out in ich today.
<Ouch.>
This is our first go-round with saltwater ich.
<It is, unfortunately, a bit more daunting than FW ich..>
We've used the product Ich Attack from Kordon AquaHerbals in our freshwater aquarium for ich with good results. The bottle says it's OK for a reef tank but I'd like some real world verification. Have you heard of the product and/or have any experience with it in a reef tank?
<Yes, I have heard of it, and unfortunately, it doesn't work. Any 'medication' that advises you to double the dose if necessary, and then advises you to use it as a preventative and then states that it is reef safe either isn't truly reef safe or it just isn't going to work. Do read here:
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/homeopathfaqs.htm
There are a few proven remedies for ich: have a read here:
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ichartmar.htm
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ichart2mar.htm >
Thanks,
<My pleasure>
Pegine and William
<MikeV>

Re: Ich Attack in Reef Tank? 4/30/2010
Thanks. A follow up question.
<Sure.>
I found this treatment course on WetWeb and would like to use it with my fish. They are: Powder Brown Tang, two pajama cardinals and two Firefish.
The QT will be a bare bottom 30 gallon cube tank. Will this regimen be OK for all the fish? Or can some
not tolerate the freshwater and Methylene Blue? Is the temp and salinity change OK for all?
Planned treatment regimen
- Dip the fish in FW with Methylene Blue for 5 min.
- Then moved them to a hospital tank.
- Raise tank temperature 1 degree/day until 82 degrees
- Lower the Spg 0.001/day until (what concentration?)
<About 1.009. What you propose if fine, but it is still best if you use some sort of copper in conjunction with the above to outright kill the parasite on the fish. You'll have much better results overall.>
Thanks again. WetWeb is a fantastic resource.
<My pleasure as always.>
Pegine and William
<MikeV>

Treating saltwater tank for ich: Reading\Shotgun approach to medication... 4/27/2010
Hello,
<Hi.>
I have 2 fish in my saltwater tank that consistently flash - Royal gramma and Sixline wrasse. It's a 46 gal. fish only - Inhabitants (royal gramma, Sixline wrasse, maroon clown, scooter blenny, pajama cardinal, blue/green Chromis, coral beauty, skunk cleaner, zebra turbo snail, 2 unknown snails -I think turbo, about 10 dwarf hermits).
<Too many fish for such a small tank.
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/StkgSmSWsysArt.htm >
It's been running about 8 months. Parameters are good.
<What does 'good' mean exactly? Numbers, actual test results are helpful, broad generalizations are not.>
The gramma has been in about 6-7 months, and the wrasse about 3 weeks. I have noticed he gramma flash since I've had it, about once a day or every other day - now every half hour it seems since I introduced the wrasse. The
wrasse also flashes once in a while, a lot less than the gramma.
<Do you see anything on the fish? evidence of parasites, any other odd behavior - such as scratching, etc? All Fishes do flash from time to time even if they are healthy.>
I quarantined the wrasse 3 weeks and treated for ich - I treat for ich and other fungus whether I see spots/fungus or not.
<An abysmally bad idea....>
I see no spots/fungus on the gramma and wrasse and none of the other fish flash - all eat well and are very active.
Everyone gets along.
<OK>
I don't want to try and remove those fish - stress for me and them.
<If there is some sort of disease present, removing them and treating is about the only way to effectively treat them.>
If there is something there it's probably in the tank.
<Obviously.....>
I was thinking of treating the entire tank with Kordon ich attack to try an eliminate ich or other fungus/parasite.
<Ich has very distinct symptoms that are very noticeable. Read here:
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ichartmar.htm and here
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ichart2mar.htm >
<Fungus is uncommon in a marine tank as well.>
It worked in my freshwater tank. I'm a little nervous about it's affect in the saltwater tank. Saltwater fish can be more sensitive and I don't want to degrade the water quality or kill all the natural filtration from the live rock. What are your thoughts?
<Read the linked pages I provided. Keep an eye on things and see if you actually notice any symptoms.>
Thanks,
Curtis
<MikeV>

Peppermint Shrimp & Hermit issues with Ich Attack.. 'Reef safe'... NOT 4/14/10
Hi-
<Hola!>
I have a 12g Nano reef tank that has a few LPS, live rock and some other corals. There was also a peppermint shrimp and a few hermits of different varieties (blue & red).
<Ok>
I decided to purchase two Percula clowns for the tank. Upon getting them home and acclimating, they did well, but the larger one came down with something the next day that I'm not quite sure what.
<Wot no Quarantine? Mistake no.1>
I researched and figured it to be Brooklynella due to the rapid breathing and lethargy.
<Mmmm>
The larger one died and I ran out to get something to fix the situation.
<A knee-jerk reaction. Had you read.. http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ca/volume_6/volume_6_1/brooklynella.htm>
I chose Kordon's Ich Attack as it is reported to be reef safe
<No such thing>
And treats a wide spectrum of things organically.
<Read here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/homeopathfaqs.htm?h=ich+attack>
I dosed the tank with 200% strength as it appeared to be an advanced case as the smaller one also had similar symptoms (The bottle said I could).
<It also say's it's reef safe'¦ which it isn't>
Within hours, the little guy perked up and began to eat. I continued this treatment for two days and noticed that my hermits all began to stop moving. They were alive but extremely lethargic. Additionally, my Pep shrimp who was normally highly active, began to exhibit the same behaviour. The next morning, I noticed the shrimp was in the light and having a hard time standing and moving.
Additionally, his antenna appeared to be brittle. The day prior he had what appeared to be some white fuzz on his antenna and legs when he was under his rock. He stopped moving and we flushed him with a salute.
<There's your proof'¦ if it can kill animals that you can see, such as shrimp, then think what it is doing to all of the lovely little microscopic animals that are so important to your system'¦ it is killing them'¦ this is the opposite to 'reef safe'>
I immediately stopped dosing (3 days total), changed the water (major, about 40%) and euthanized my hermits to prevent them from having the same fate.
<These could have survived with improved water quality.. I would have left these>
I ran Carbon and a Poly-filter for two days to suck up any other stuff floating in the water.
<Good moves, all>
I also picked up new hermits and a new shrimp. Everything was acclimated and doing what they do in the tank. Well, the clown began to exhibit the same signs of sickness again two days after adding the new guys.
<Because not only is this med. not reef safe, it is also not effective at the job you are using it for>
I dosed the Ich Attack again at 90 % this time and within a few hours, he was great.
<? This is the opposite to learning from experience.. you have experience that this course of action does not work, so'¦ you do the same thing again?>
Well, the same thing is happening again three days later with the shrimp and the hermits are just sitting there.
<of course>
The new shrimp has lost a good portion of both antenna and he's currently out in the light in the same spot the other one decided to die.
<No, he did not 'decide' to die.. you killed him>
He's having issues standing and is currently on his side but still moving. I'm going to finish the treatment for the fish this time to insure that whatever he had is eradicated (7 days, on day 4 currently)
<This won't eradicate the parasite'¦ A separate system is what you need.. hospital/ treatment/ quarantine tank.. and all new additions should be quarantined as well prior to introduction. Read here:
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-10/sp/feature/index.php
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/brooklynellosisart.htm
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/parasiti.htm
Your system is infested and will remain so for quite some time>
before adding new shrimp and hermits. What's odd is that my coral and snails are doing fantastic with no adversity to the Kick Ich or whatever else is in the tank.
<they are just not as susceptible>
I'm stumped as to what is going on with the hermits and shrimp.
<You're killing them by adding chemicals to the system>
The water parameters are fine as well with everything where it should be in regards to ammonia, nitrites, nitrates, calcium and so on.
<Really? There are no numbers here>
Any ideas as to what was/is going on or suggestions?
<Posted. You need to read/ learn about parasitized systems, and not believe the corporate baloney that companies use to separate you from your wallet>
-Alex
<Simon>

Re: Goldrim Tang 4/9/10
Thanks again Bob....
Tang now full of white spots again....no ifs or buts...nothing else infected.
<Symptomatically>
Oodinex is useless....
<Yes, we are in agreement>
will cease usage today and all their people do is send a big list of questions. Basically I've followed the instructions, repeated it and it doesn`t work...but no ill effects either.
<Might as well add water... cheaper and as effective, perhaps more>
So will carry on letting fish fight it himself, monitor till Monday then think of buying a QT tank.
<Not quarantine, but treatment... all the fishes... You've been reading re the use of Quinine cpd.s...>
Thanks again for the sensible help.
Regards
Gary
<30-40k folks served every day... Since the mid-90's... BobF>

serious ich or velvet problem... Reading 4/4/10
I have a major problem and need some help. I have a 125 gallon reef tank with corals, inverts, LR and a fixed aquascape. Removal of my fish is not possible without destroying the permanent aquascape. I made an oops and added a powder brown tang w/o quarantine
<A giant error>
because he came from a friends tank and had never shown any signs of disease for a few months. After a few days thousands of white spots appeared on his body and his fins started to look ragged. I treated the tank with kick-ich
<...>
and a product called Sano
<See our site re...>
and also began feeding garlic extreme and he died within a few days anyways and I couldn't find him. Well about a week later the rest of my fish (harbor goby, yellow tang, maroon clown and 3 damsels) developed these white spots and ragged fins, I continued the Sano, kick-ich and garlic but they are showing no improvement.
<Not surprising... had you read...>
I already knew that these treatment methods were probably useless
<Oh, this is the first sensible statement>
but it's all I could think to do. I can remove all of my corals and inverts to a separate tank but I cannot move the fish
<Yes you can...>
so I was thinking of hypo in the display
<...>
but I think that is probably a bad idea that will kill all of my coralline and the biological filter. I also considered low levels of malachite green.
Another option would be just to let them fight it off by themselves but I am afraid they will die.
<Possible>
The real problem is I am not sure if it is ich, brook or velvet. If it is ich it's the first time I have ever seen it almost completely cover the fish including the eyes. I thought that I had read somewhere that gobies and tangs couldn't get brook and that it only affects damsels and clowns for the most part. Velvet I have no experience with but the fish don't have heavy amounts of slime on them. I am leaning towards a severe outbreak of ich but it doesn't make sense to me that the fish weren't under any additional stress and I had all of these fish for 2 years with no problems.
All of my water parameters are
in check except for my phosphates which are around 1.0 ppm. The tank has only been up for about 2 months and has been seeded by multiple different and healthy reef tanks. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks, Chris
<... to read: http://wetwebmedia.com/ichartmar.htm
and the linked files above, particularly "Cures that work", and onto Quinine compounds... and soon. Bob Fenner>

Goldrim Tang... induced troubles, Crypt 4/4/10
Hi,
I bought a Goldrim Tang last week , picked him up Monday.
<To quarantine?>
I know they`re prone to white spot so started to run a uv sterilizer the same day.
He seemed to have a few white spots by Tuesday which had gone Wednesday morning.
Then Thursday he was covered in spots and rubbing against rock etc...
Actually thought he was rubbing against objects in LFS but thought he was ok as there was no sign of spots.
I am still running the uv, feeding garlic soaked foods and treating system with ESHa Oodinex.
<The system? Not a "bare" treatment tank? This is a grave error>
No other fish seem to be infected (only have 1damsel 1 clown and a goby).
<The operative word here: "seem">
Just wondering if this treatment sounds ok.
<Likely has cycled off... will be back... read here:
http://wetwebmedia.com/ichartmar.htm
and the linked files above>
I have turned off the external canister filter as it contains carbon and am just running 2 internal filters for the 3 day treatment.
Nitrates still at 0 and only 1 day left.
The Tang is still eating but has lost most of his colour and spends all day in front of a powerhead (maybe it gives him some relief).
He has a slight round scar(?) on each side of his body behind the pelvic fins.
Wondering if I have used the ESHa at the right time as I know the parasite can only be killed when free swimming and as the treatment lasts 3 days I don`t want to strip it out of the water before this stage.
<Your system is infested>
Also heard it exits its host at night so by timescale was hoping that would be any time now.
Shall I run the external filter for a couple of days then treat again or just repeat medication immediately.
Hope this is clear. Have tried to give as much info as possible. Thanks
Gary
PS Temperature about 27C.
<Keep reading. Bob Fenner>
Goldrim Tang additional info
Sorry forgot to say its in a reef tank and also no white spots visible anymore but not sure if there just not visible cos so pale.
<...>

Re Ick update, SW, infested sys. f' 3/23/10
Hi Crew,
This is just an update to an Ick problem. I added a Neon Goby, Blue Chromis and a Rusty Goby to my 24 gallon Aquapod at the end of January. No qt.
After about 10 days the Neon had Ick. My decision was to wait and see rather than remove and treat. The tank also has a Firefish and a Green Clown goby.
None of the other fish had any visible Ick. The Neon went through a number of cycles of Ick and some were pretty bad as far as how it looked. But he always ate and was very active. It is over a week that I have not seen any
Ick on him but it did take its toll. When I got him he was a very solid looking fish and now he looks emaciated and his skin is blotched. He does eat and he is very active so I am hoping that he will fully recover. (
Had I used one of the Ick products, that the Crew says does no good, I would have attributed the success to that product.)
<Ah yes...>
In any case my tank is infected. So at some point some of some fish will die and I will want to replenish them. Will I be able to add fish without them getting (s)Ick.
<Only time/experience here can/will tell. It's best (like doing what one can to preserve the health of AIDS patients let's say) to be extra careful in adding fishes to systems that have established, known Crypt infestations. BobF>
Thanks,
Sam

White Spot, Marine... "Reef safe" baloney 3/9/10
Hi WWM,
<Hello>
Recently I've setup a fish only system in that it won't house any corals, but will house things like hermit crabs, shrimps and maybe a sea urchin or two along with some small fish.
<Ok>
Wanting to beat the system I decided to seed the filter in the new system with filter material from an established reef tank. However the snag is that prior to my knowledge the reef tank contained white spot introduced by a new coral purchase. The question is how long will it take the white spot to die in the newly setup system which currently doesn't contain any fish - therefore no hosts for the white spot.

Would you recommend treating the tank with a reef friendly medication such as Myaxzin prior to introducing fish or should I wait for the white spot to die naturally without a host?
<No such thing as reef safe medication for crypt so I would not waste my time.>
If I choose the waiting option - how long should I wait? Will using a reef friendly medication have any detrimental affect on the system?
<As above, 8 weeks minimum, and yes it is possible a "reef safe" medication could either be detrimental to the system or ineffective and a waste of money.>
Thank you.
Best Regards,
Mark
<Welcome>
<Chris>

Still Have Ich 3/5/10
Hey, how's it goin?
<Okay...>
Well, I have the white plague again. My tank has been ripped apart for 2-3 months. All my rock was removed and the tank treated with Cupramine
<But in the presence of substrate... won't work>
for a month or so. With no effect. I took Mike V's advice and treated with the Quinine.
<Also in the main/display tank?>
I treated with this twice as the ich was still present after one treatment. After the second treatment it appeared to be gone. I pulled all the quinine out of the tank and proceeded to put all of my rock back in.
The rock had been in a Rubbermaid with water, heater, and powerhead. Sure enough 4-5 days later my fish have spots. I don't get it? What am I doing wrong?
<The "resting stages" of the disease were present...>
Water temp is stable. Ph is right at 8.3 or so. No ammonia or nitrite.
Nitrate on the high side 80-100 ppm.
<Perhaps a factor>
I only have two fish and they leave each other alone. Do I retreat with Quinine again? Does all of my rock have to come out again?
<Really need to treat in a "bare tank"...>
Is it possible my fish fight it off on their own?
<Yes>
Honestly if I have to remove everything again, I might just say the heck with it. Treat the fish and say see ya to saltwater all together once treated. This is not fun anymore. It's more of a job. I don't know what else to do. Please help. Thanks Everyone. Aaron.
<Please read here: http://wetwebmedia.com/quinmedfaqs.htm
Carefully. Bob Fenner>
Re: Still Have Ich 3/5/10
Yes, I treated in the main tank. I still had substrate at the bottom.
<... and yes, this can't be practically done>
I have two fish. A Dogface Puffer and a Stars and Stripes. They do compete for food but other than that are pretty peaceful towards each other. The tank is a 120 gallon.
<Will need more room in time>
My Stars and Stripes is pretty big. I would say 8-10 inches. The Dog is around 5 or so. Do you think it could be a stressor of some sort between the two?
<Not likely a large factor here>
And would my high nitrates be caused by having two messy fish?
<Oh yes>
Would I be better off keeping only one?
<Mmm... I do think the fishes of the order Tetraodontiformes (e.g. puffers, triggers) are "more intelligent", do better in social company. I do think you may well need more filtration, perhaps "stepped up" maintenance (e.g. larger water changes, more frequent...)>
I would keep the Stars and Stripes.
Is there anything I can do to prevent a major outbreak?
<Oh yes... see WWM re: http://wetwebmedia.com/cryptprevfaqs.htm
and the linked files above...>
I was concerned about treating again. I don't want to expose them again to another treatment.
<... they really weren't exposed previously. Read where you were initially referred to... the medicine was absorbed, changed...>
I thought it would be too much for them. What would you say the best course of action would be? Thanks again for all of your help. Aaron
<For you to read. BobF>

Re: Still Have Ich -- 03/05/10
So you think they really didn't receive a treatment because everything was absorbed by the substrate? I didn't think it would absorb quinine.
<... stop writing, start reading. B>
Was this just the life cycle taking place where the ich had just fallen off the fish to start the cycle over again? Can you tell me the smallest quarantine I could get by with? And would an internal filter work for filtration?
Quarantine and leaving the main fallow is the only way I guess. Is it your belief that a system can become completely rid of this parasite? <Yes>

Now an angel... QT method, Crypt non-trtmt f's 2/20/2010
So I have done some things right and obviously done some things wrong. I have a 29g QT, with an Aquaclear rated for a 70g tank. I put media in it from an Eheim that had been operating for several months, I drew water from my existing system. First to go in was a male Bellus angel for observational QT and he was fine for 2 days and then developed a white cotton ball looking spot on his tail. He was eating and looking just fine, so I decided to try herbtana
<Mmm>
to treat as he was doing so well. At day 7 of the treatment (and this is one of the things I did wrong) I added a small female Bellus angel.
<Too small a volume psychologically here>
He chased her a bit but then stopped. I was doing bi-weekly water changes of about 30%. They were eating great. Then on day 13 due to things like a family friend dying and another friend's house burning down I forgot to put in the herbtana but it wasn't working on the spot anyway. Day 15 both fish were breathing very hard and were covered in ich. I added a neon goby to help with the ich. I started the herbtana again and started doing huge water changes as I discovered that nitrates were over 50. Rinsed media, changed the sponge and got the nitrates down. I also started reducing the salinity to do hypo for the ich. I had a pH monitor on that I calibrate monthly and decided to calibrate early and it turned out it was low. I am now buffering daily and the pH goes between 8.1 and 8.3. All the water changes helped the male and the goby but the female was very lethargic. She also had red streaks on her gills and both fish were shaking their heads. I gave them a 3 minute freshwater dip matching temp and pH. I also decided to stop the herbtana and treat with PraziPro but had to take 48 hours to clear out the herbtana before I treated. So I added carbon, put on UV and did 3 water changes in that 48 hours. The female died the next morning after I removed the carbon, did a 50% water change, use Stability, turned off the UV and added the PraziPro. I am now worried about the male. He has been in with the PraziPro for 2.5 days now, his breathing looks fine but he is lethargic and is only eating a little bit. I could see if I was too late for the female and she was the one who brought in the flukes but shouldn't the male be responding by now if it was flukes?
<Can't tell from what is presented here, but...>
The ich has largely disappeared and he is allowing the goby to clean him. Oh, the spot on his tail is finally gone -- I am guessing the goby got it. What should I do?
Sherri
<Treat the Crypt appropriately... NOT use "herbtana", NOT place incompatible specimens in quarantine together. Bob Fenner>

Re: Now an angel, Crypt extravaganza 2/20/10
And how do I now treat the "crypt" appropriately?
<... read...>
I am doing hypo and PraziPro,
<... The last is a vermifuge... Neither will cure Cryptocaryoniasis>
the female is gone so the only tank mate is a goby. I know I blew it- I just want to pull the male through now. At first he ate Mysis and brine -- now he won't. He got excited with Cyclop-eeze but it is too small. He ignores Nori and sea lettuce. What else can I try? Please help me with a little more information. For the fish ...
Sherri
<Start here: http://wetwebmedia.com/ichartmar.htm
then here: http://wetwebmedia.com/cryptcures2.htm
Please: Learn to/use the search tool/indices on WWM. There are just "too many of you" (tens of thousands of users per day) to respond to timely. B>
Re: Now an angel
Sorry -- didn't know ich was called crypt, tried a search that didn't work, went to a funeral .... just needed help. Thanks.
Sherri
<No worries. Living is learning; and we're glad to help. BobF>

Re: Now an angel, Crypt ID 2/21/10
So I have been reading -- I really thought it was something other than ich
--
<? I am perhaps confused here...>
anyway, I am confused and have been searching for hours and see two different options. There's your recommendation to use Cryptopro which I have ordered and is on the way.
<Ah good.>
From the reading I found one reference that I need to raise the salinity back up to treat with is which I will start today. I also read in your article ( I knew a lot of this but was confused by the symptoms and lack of results from hypo)-- which I am guessing is older where you say:
Metronidazole (aka Flagyl), Quinacrine Hydrochloride, Quinine Sulfate. Not effective consistently.
<This is so... clinically. I would go with the Quinine product you have ordered, restored specific gravity, and a close eye on water quality here. BobF>

Treatment Resistant Cryptocaryon irritans... & Formalin use admonition 2/10/10
Greetings to Bob and Crew at WWM!
I hope that all is well with each and every one at WWM.
I recently shared my experience with you regarding a nasty bout of C. irritans and Quinine Sulfate and received much helpful advice - thank you!
Sadly though, my battle continues due to my own stupidity. Now looking back at things, I could only shake my head and ask myself "what in the world were you thinking?"
<Oh?>
In order to recap a little and to remind Bob which sorry soul I am, I will quickly give a synopsis of events.
I have a 225 gallon reef tank with Powder blue tang, Kole tang, Atlantic blue tang, Flame angel, three wrasses (Clown Fairy, Exquisite, and Cleaner).
Everyone got ich (all the fishes were 'new' with established live rocks and sand), after several days of "treatment" with garlic, Kick-ich, No-ich and many a witch's brew, I finally took the advice given by Mr. Fenner, caught
all my fish and started quinine sulfate treatment in a 55 gallon hospital tank. I was without C. irritans for two weeks after the 10 day treatment and decided that this would be a wonderful opportunity to try to introduce an Achilles tang which was at the LFS for five weeks and looking absolutely stunning. I introduced him to my fishes while they were all in "quarantine"
<A huge error>
as I was waiting for my reef tank to go fallow for a total of six weeks.
Well, several days later, I noticed ich on the Achilles. I thought - No problem - I still have plenty of quinine sulfate on hand, so I started dosing again just as I had before. This time, it did not work. After seven days of treatment, my Achilles continued to be covered with bumps and white spots and so luckily, I was able to take him back to the LFS for a full refund of store credit. I'm glad to say that was a good move because the Achilles is still alive and well at the LFS today. I continued treatment of my hospital tank and its inhabitants with quinine sulphate for a total of
10 days before introducing them back to the DT which was fallow for FIVE weeks.
I did it one week early because all fishes were starting to show signs of stress from being in a less than adequate environment. Four days later, I noticed bumps on the Powder blue tang. I called my LFS and spoke with my buddy and owner of the LFS who recommended me to do something slightly on the drastic side and this is where I like to share my experience and ask some questions.
I was guessing that the strain of C. irritans I have now is resistant to quinine sulfate as I wrote to National Fish Pharmacy and Dr. Brian Aukes suggested it be so. I was leaving to the Maldives in SIX days when all this was occurring and my pet sitter is limited in her ability to handle copper treatment. So my buddy, John, offered his experience of being in the fish trade and help - Formaldehyde.
I took all my corals, macro algae, most of my snails and hermits out and distributed them in the multitude of tanks I have at the house. He took my corals to the LFS for safe keeping. Now, I have, essentially a FOWLR tank.
We figured with the sump and refugium, there are 250 gallons of water. So we dosed 25 ml of 37% Formaldehyde solution directly into the DT. I thought my heart was going to stop but it didn't. I dosed another 25 ml on day three.
The fishes were actually doing better, showing more color and feeding better. I did a third dose of 30 ml Formalin solution 36 hours before I left and a 40 gallon water change 24 hours after it. At that time, there were still spots of ich on the all the tangs. Three days later, a fourth dose of 25 ml was given, which was followed by TWO 30 ml treatments four days apart.
During that time, according to John, my parameters stayed "acceptable".
When I came home two and a half weeks later, some of the Zoanthids and leather corals were still alive and open! But here is the frightening thing - everyone was still alive and well, and so is the ich on the tangs! I spoke with John some more, and we thought we needed to increase the formalin, so I treated with a 40 ml dose three days ago on Saturday (2/6). The next morning one can see that I've probably killed off a majority of my good bacteria with the water a yellowish tint and the sand littered with dead bristle worms. I've since done 40 gallon water changes each day times two, and am planning another one today before my next 40 ml of formalin treatment tomorrow as the PBT got into some sparring with the KT and got a scratch near the base of his tail (I want to make sure that it heals a bit better before the next treatment). I know from my readings on WWM that this
- Formalin in DT - is something that is not done nor recommended, but at this time, it appears as the only thing I can do to keep the ich in check.
Some interesting points and questions are:
1. At 40 ml to 250 gallons, the concentration greatly exceeds the 1 drop per gallon or 1 ml per 25 gallon recommended by WWM for continuous bath.
I know I'm probably doing damage to my fishes' internal organs like their liver... What can I do to reverse that damage or things I should be watching out for?
<Outright mortality>
2. What type of ich is so resistant to treatment?

These guys have been through so much - fresh water dips of 7 minutes, hypo saline conditions, quinine sulfate, and now continuous formalin! How much formalin can ich stand?
<Not much>
3. I've learned from WWM about the life cycle of C. irritans. Ich on fish is protected against treatment, they drop off of fish in 3-7 days during which they are resistant also?
<Yes; more so in the resting stage>
They divide while attached to my substrate and only when they hatch is when they are susceptible to treatment. I feel like I should be dosing formalin DAILY for 28 days but KNOW THAT I CANNOT DO THIS, so I'm thinking I should be able to catch into the cycle with 5 treatments every third or fourth day? I also know to dose at night as the C. irritans hatch at night and hunt while the fishes are sleeping.
4. I am surprised to see all my fishes alive and active. I just don't know how long they can withstand this.
I'm sure you have many thoughts going through your mind as you read this.
Please share!
<You need to either treat the fishes in the absence of CaCO3 material, or dip them and move them to a clean setting/system enroute>
As always, I really appreciate the help and advise that is given!
Thank you!
Jamie Barclay
<Welcome Jamie. BobF>

Re: Treatment Resistant Cryptocaryon irritans, formalin use -- 02/12/10
Dear Bob,
Thank you so much for your reply!
It took me two days to ponder what you wrote while staring at my fishes to "comprehend" what you recommend! You are recommending that I move my fishes out of my infected system because as long as one tomont exists and encysts in my tank, I've got 200+ theronts looking for my tangs to attach.
<Yes... much easier to control these infestations, treat and vacuum out intermediaries in bare-bottomed settings>
My system is established by C. irritans that I most likely have fresh theronts everyday, so even treating with formalin every three days will not kill them fast enough.
<Correct>
I see now that this is why formalin works so well in a retail setting where there are minimal things for the tomonts to attach and not work well for the home aquarium where the tank is set up with rocks and sand.
<Ahh!>
This really has been a learning experience!
Thank you, thank you, thank you,
Best wishes!
Jamie Barclay
<And you Jamie. Keep on "fighting the good fight"... You will ultimately prevail. BobF>

Ick and Tangs, & worthless med.s/ f' 2/9/10
I have a 100 gal saltwater tank and recently was wiped out by a combination of Ick and Velvet. I tried a combination of Kick Ick and Rally and, as advertised, they did not kill the coral. The problem is they killed the fish.
<Or at least allowed the parasites to do so.>
Anyway, I am making several water changes and want to introduce new Tangs.
I have read that the combination of an intermittent Diatom Filter and a UV filter might go a long way in preventing and eliminating unwanted parasites. However, these articles are dated. Do you recommend this combination of filters or is my time and money better spent concentrating on proper quarantine procedures and water quality? Thanks.
<QT and water quality by far are more effective.>
<Chris>

Ich: Dosing main tank again. 2/3/2010
Hey Crew,
<Hi again Aaron.>
Well I'm back with more questions. Again, I have ich in my system.

I am treating in my display with Cupramine.
<We've been over this before. Treating the main tank is a very bad idea unless you are treating with quinine. Copper is only going to kill the free swimming stages of the parasite.>
I know, not the best idea. I just don't have the ability to set up a big enough quarantine. I have taken all my rock out but I do still have substrate in the tank. I have been treating for about three weeks now and this darn ich is not going away. My substrate at first had absorbed some of the copper so it was a battle to keep the levels where they should be.
<Typical, which is why it is recommended to treat in a bare bottomed tank.>
For the last week to week and a half they measure within range. Could this be a resistant strain? Have my levels not been therapeutic long enough?
<If you are treating the main tank with copper, yes, it can take weeks http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ichartmar.htm >
All of my fish are eating good and for the most part acting normal. Every other time I have used Cupramine it has cleared it up in no time.
<It cleared up on the fish, the parasite is still in your tank.>
Just don't get it? I was thinking possibly another parasite of some sort.
But wouldn't the Cupramine eradicate it as well? I have a few copper sensitive fish in the tank and don't want to expose them any more than I have to. Without the possibility of quarantine what would you guys say is my best attack method?
<Again, quinine....http://www.wetwebmedia.com/quinmedfaqs.htm >
Thank you again for your expert advice on this. Without a lfs in the area with a knowledgeable staff I have nowhere else to turn.
<MikeV>

Re: Ich: Dosing main tank again. 2/4/2010
Thanks. Much appreciated. I will try the quinine.
<Good.>
Just so I understand. If I treat with quinine and never add anymore fish my ich dilemma should never come back?
<With good care of the tank, yes. To be clear, I said for all intents and purposes. NO tank is ich free. My tank has it, as does everyone else that has a SW tank. The trick is to keep the parasite levels down to a level
where it isn't an issue. With good water quality and good health, the fish do not get weakened\compromised immune systems, and thus do not catch ich>
I would be happy with that at this point. As my fish grow my tank will become way undersized anyways.
<So you will have nice happy, and unstressed fish.>
So I will order the quinine and in the meantime start pulling the copper out of my tank? Can I then start the quinine treatment as soon as the copper is removed?
<In your case, I would order the quinine, and stop dosing with copper. I would then do a large water change before dosing the quinine. After you have completed the quinine treatment, and done the large water changes
needed for that, I would run both carbon and Polyfilters in your tank for a few months to soak up the copper that will leech out of the substrate.>
<MikeV>
Re: re: Ich: Dosing main tank again. 2/4/2010
<Hi Aaron.>
I guess that is the biggest debate among saltwater hobbyists. Some say it is possible to rid tank completely and others say it is not.
<I'm on the side of it isn't possible.>
I was thinking of only keeping my Stars and Stripes Puffer. He is getting quite large. With only him in the tank it should be pretty stress free and easier to keep parameters in check. Will a good uv sterilizer help the matter at all?
<I'm personally not a fan of them>
I know it only kills free swimming stage but that is better than nothing.
One last question. Have you heard of the Reaction four stage canister with 7 watt uv? If so, would this in your opinion be a waste of money?
<Never seen one, but found it on Google. Those look a lot like the Via-Aqua filters. I had one - for about 2 hours. I never actually ran water through it, it was that unimpressive.>
I was thinking of getting one but I would assume a uv and canister combo would not go well together as the flow rate would be too much for the uv to work
properly.
<Yes.>
Thanks.
<MikeV>

28/01/2010 Urgent Question - Crypt/ Q.T./ C.P. 1/29/10
Well, my aquarium has ICK and I can't find proper advice about how to handle this particular and urgent situation.
<Ok, let's see if we can help>
The problem is, as I understand all the fish must be placed in quarantine for 8 weeks until the main tank becomes 99% ICK free.
<Yes, dependant on severity and situation>
I have an assortment of 10 fish. Copperband Butterfly, 2 black and white clowns, 2 Anthias (I think Bartlett's), 1 Royal Grammas, 1 Lawnmower Blenny, 1 Bluestreak Wrasse, 1 Diamond Goby, 1 Randall's Goby.
<Hmmmm, some of these fishes may not fare well with a prolonged QT period>
I am not sure whether to go with copper or hypo, but am currently leaning towards hypo.

I tried garlic, both in the tank and soaked in food.
<Won't work>
Also tried No-Ick.
<In-tank medication? No good IMO>
Those attempts haven't solved the problem, although they did take up valuable time. Now I am running out of time.
The Gramma is the worst. Still eating, but appears to be losing scales and I can see the discomfort and scratching. The butterfly is the next most adversely affected. I can't see Ick on the others, but the Anthias and Wrasse are scratching.
<They are all infested, mostly in their gills where you can't see the skin reaction to the parasite>
I understand from WWM that Gobies and Blennies cannot take long periods in quarantine. Especially sand sifters.
<This is a difficult and trying time. These decisions and actions can easily result in the death of fishes, especially sensitive ones>
But I still need to keep them out of the main display for 8 weeks.
<Yes you do, in fact Noga suggests 3 months is necessary, but this is too long a QT period for most fishes by far>
I am hoping for advice on how to quarantine all for 8 weeks, with no substrate,
<Very carefully, in as large a QT tank as possible. Ammonia is the killer here, as long as you can keep the fishes feeding well, and keep TOTAL ammonia to zero (or at least as low as 0.25 temporarily at first) this CAN be done. However, this requires extreme effort on your part and is a very stressful time, trust me I know>.
or do I take the chance and quarantine the Gobies and Blenny for 2-4 weeks, or for as long as they can take it, and then put them back in the main tank?
<No, you will put back all of your hard work if you do this. I would use Chloroquine Phosphate in your QT tank, with some sponges (inert) in a canister or other large filter. I would purchase some of this fancy 'instant-nitrifying bacteria-in--a-bottle' stuff -- Hagen's 'cycle' is the one I have used successfully (Check the expiry dates) -- and keep pouring this stuff in over the first two weeks of treatment to help build up a biological filter. Feed sparingly and test ammonia twice daily for the first two weeks, when you are happy with the ammonia long term, increase feeding, and test ammonia once a day after. Use water changes where you have to. DO NOT cease feeding, as some fishes will refuse to eat afterwards if you do this. This is why this is difficult to manage>.
How can the Diamond Goby survive even a few days in the no substrate hospital tank without satisfying its nature to constantly sift sand?
<hmmm, you could add some new dry sand to the QT after two weeks of CP treatment if you like. There has also been some success with using this med in the presence of a substrate but doing this is a bit 'hit-and-miss' as far as I understand. Maybe other crew members might know more about this, am copying into the main 'in-box' here>.
The other problem is my currently available hospital tank is only 29 gallons and I am pretty sure this is too small?
<Yes, by far - there is a good chance that some of your fishes will die. The danger is that when your fishes go into QT they will refuse to feed, or bully and stress each other in the confined space. Another danger is that the feeding itself plus the excretion from the gills will produce ammonia that will kill them. Doing massive water changes in such a small setting will stress the fish further, especially if they are daily. My advice is to purchase a larger QT tank>.
I certainly am amazed and appreciative of all that you do for the world of aquarium enthusiasts. I have learned a tremendous amount from WWM.
<Well, that's great Peter and so have I! A plug for the use of quarantine BEFORE introduction for all livestock is appropriate here, and although my opinion differs from that of other crew members on this, I believe that all fishes should be quarantined with the prophylactic use of C.P.>.
Thanks,
<No problem Peter. If you go this road then diligence is required here, beware of complacency as this will kill your fish as surely as anything else. Please write back for more help with this if you need it, I fully sympathise with what you are going through and am more than willing to help further>.
-Peter
<Simon><<Well-done Simon. BobF>>

Quinine Sulphate Treatment for Ich 12/3/09
Greetings to my FAVORITE people at WWM!
I cannot tell you how much I appreciate Bob and the whole crew.

Well, I should have taken Bob's advice on November 10th and removed all my fishes from my 225 gallon reef and treated them with hyposalinity and ordered Quinine Sulphate. Not listening to wisdom caused me the lives of my favorite Kole Tang, two little Neon Gobies, and I think my Filament Wrasse
(his MIA since Thanksgiving night when I DID FINALLY TOOK ALL THE FISHES OUT).
The reason for me to write is not only to pay respect for the knowledge at WWM but also to share some information that I've learned about Quinine Sulphate and some "other" treatments.
<Ahh, please do>
I wasted time by attempting to treat with "REEF SAFE" products: Ich Attack, Herbtana, Kick Ich. They were all indeed REEF SAFE, my hermits, shrimps, urchin, worms were all alive and well after two weeks of using those products concurrently. I can't say they killed ich because my fish still had them, but I cannot say that they might not help them some as they did not decline in health until after two weeks. But this delay caused the lives that I will feel guilty about for much time to come.
So, on Thanksgiving night I enjoyed moving 260 pounds of live rock and corals out of my tank to catch the fishes. PBTang, Atlantic Blue Tang, Flame Angel, Cleaner Wrasse (I know not to ever get these again from what I've learned here at WWM), Lubbock's Wrasse, Clown Fairy Wrasse are currently doing much better in a 55 gallon hospital tank. PBT and ABT were treated with a pH and temperature matched fresh water dip prior to entering the hospital tank since they were showing the worst infection.
I then treated with hyposalinity that was dropped over 3 days to 1.009 and then raised over 3 days to 1.020. (Yeah - they did not stay at 1.009 for more than 36 hours as I decided to treat with the Quinine and I needed to bring salinity back up.)
Tonight is day 1 of Quinine Phosphate treatment.
I dosed at 1/4 teaspoon per 10 gallons. I recommend that people mix this medication in some tank water prior to putting it in the tank - it sort of clumped up when put directly in the tank but it is slowly dissolving.
I contacted National Fish Pharmacy due to conflicting information regarding dosing schedule. Dr. Aukes there recommended to do ONE treatment and let the medication sit in there without a water change for seven days.

Then a 50 percent water change at the end of seven days. Make sure that UV, protein skimmer are turned OFF. Remove all carbon, Purigen, etc.
<Yes, all chemical and physical filtration needs to be off, removed>
Since giving medications, all fishes are looking fine without any signs of additional stress. Interestingly they are showing areas where they've been scratching on their skin.
<Yes... pits>
They are actively eating (by the way - Nat'l Fish Pharm recommends that you DO NOT FEED during treatment to keep water parameters in acceptable range.)
<Mmm, I'd be feeding sparingly>
I will be feeding some because I think it is good that they eat but will be monitoring parameters closely and will use water that I'm made up especially with the purpose of changing water if needed. (20 gallon tank with SG 1.023 and 1/2 teaspoon of Quinine pre-made on the same date - this way, I believe that the medications will have the same effectiveness with it's half life.)
I had read at WWM.com that light should be turned off. Dr. Aukes explained that only UV light would affect the medication. Lights can stay on with Quinine treatment.

Well, I do apologize for this long winded recap of the events but just in case if Chris is not the receiver of this e-mail.

Again, I cannot thank all of you enough to educate me about the lives that we take from the ocean. I will always listen to the advice of the wise, and Bob - you are very wise!
<Heeee! Perhaps a wise-n-heimer at times>
Thank YOU!
Jamie Barclay
<And you for sharing your experience, learning here Jamie. You have thus saved MANY folks trouble and MANY fish livestock their health. Cheers, Bob Fenner>

Re: Hey everyone..... Crypt, hypo... UV use 11/28/09
Oh hey Bob, I was hoping you would reply lol. While your here I have another question. I had a mild outbreak of ich in my tank so at this point in time I am doing the hyposalinity technique to help suppress or eradicate it from my tank.
<Might suppress somewhat, won't eradicate>
process.
<Ditto>
The UV sterilizer has been running for about a week now and I have no clue why I just recently came down with another bout of ich on my fish.
<Read on Bartholomew>
I haven't seen ich on them in about a two weeks now and all of a sudden...more comes.
<... same as it ever was>
I know there is a life cycle with the ich but won't the UV work to prevent or kill it before it starts or at least help a little?
<The latter>
And I know there are mixed opinions about UV's as I have read in your forums but IF the UV does work at all, would it start being at least somewhat effective after a week of running or does it take a couple or several weeks of
running to help kill/prevent ich?
Thanks Bob
<Keep reading... on WWM at least; re UVs, Cryptocaryon, its cures. BobF>

Kordon's Ich Attack medication, 10/30/09
Attn: Chris
I don't know if you remember but I responded to a question regarding an Ich infestation a lady was having. I recommended Kordon's Ich Attack and you kind of blew it off as just voodoo medicine.
<I do remember, and I didn't mean to make it sound like I was just blowing you off, but it is just voodoo medicine in my opinion. There is just no basis to believe that "herbal" remedies do anything besides separate you from your money.>
The reason I'm writing again is that my Sail fin Tang recently came down with Ich. I added Ich Attack and within two days the spots were beginning to disappear. This would make the third fish I have treated successfully with this product.
<Honestly what you're are seeing is the result of Cryptocaryon irritans life cycle. Not to sound condescending but if the treatment is effective why would your fish continue to get infected?>
Perhaps someone from WWM could test this product and if they have results as good as I have had it may be passed along as an alternate treatment to copper.
<The costs, time, and equipment requirements to do this sort of testing are beyond my means, and I suspect most other volunteers here. I encourage you to do such testing if interested and write an article on your findings. Many hobby magazines would probably be interested in publishing.>
In all fairness to you, you did say that perhaps it was due to my dedicated husbandry, which was greatly appreciated.

Keep an open mind.
<Always>
Respectfully,
Shawn
<Thanks>
<Chris>

Re: Kordon's Ich Attack medication, 10/30/09
I have four different tanks and I only have had an outbreak sometime after I started up the tank. After the treatment I never had another outbreak.
Just my opinion but its worth a try before more lethal treatment is administered.
<Perhaps, however I cannot recommend adding anything to a tank that does not have a list of ingredients on it, another issue I have with this product.>
Shawn
<Chris>

Re: Treating for Ich vs. Ammonia Spike Question 10/21/09
Thank you for getting back to me Chris, I really appreciate the assistance.
Lynne
<Welcome>
<Chris>

Re: Lynn's Ich vs. Ammonia spike question dated 10-21, 10/22/09
Good morning crew,
<Hello>
This is not a question but a response to Lynn's ich problem.
I have had to battle an ich problem with my powder blue tang and have found that Kordon's Ich Attack has worked very well. It is an herbal medication and along with curing my tang of ich it had no adverse effects on any of the other inhabitants in my reef tank. The only thing that I had to do was stop skimming for the treatment period. And although the smell of the medication is not the best it did work very well. My tang was rid of the visible white spots within a week and has had no more outbreaks since.
Hope this helps,
Shawn
<Thanks for the input Shawn, however I am going to have to disagree with you here. I don't put much if any faith in the herbal treatments for ich, there is just no data to suggest it does much of anything. There is a
surprisingly large amount of research done on Cryptocaryon irritans and Ichthyophthirius multifilius done by the food industry as these parasites costs them millions, and nothing that supports these herbal remedies. I
fear that most likely you are just seeing a combination of your fish developing a certain degree of immunity along with the Ich's normal lifecycle. I would guess gill scraping of your fish would still show a low level of infection. But the fact that your fish were able to resist the ich indicates good husbandry techniques are being used and will serve your
fish well.>
<Chris>

I Can't Keep a Fish Alive SW Systems Fish health and Likely Toxic Water
Possible Ich\Crypt\Inappropriate stocking Reading, lots of reading.9/2/2009
Dear WWM
<Hi Jenaraye>
6 months ago I decided to buy my 6 yr old daughter her first fish and that's when I became "hooked".
<welcome to the hobby.>
I ended up with my first fish tank and my first saltwater experience.
A 55 gallon tank, a BakPak2R+ skimmer, Emperor 400, 2 power heads, Live Rock 80lbs & my test kits show my Nitrates 0, nitrites 0,(or)0.25 ammonia, 0,
<Big problem right there. Nitrites need to be zero and remain zero.
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/toxictk.htm >
High PH 8.0
<pH is a bit low. 8.2 - 8.4 is preferred.>
Phosphate 0.0 (or) 0.25 Salt Gravity 1.022. I feed mysis Shrimp, blood worms, awexotics flakes (a food made locally here in town where I live) it has kelp-Spirulina-color with garlic...made from fresh kelp direct from Alaska high in added Spirulina high in omega 3 and omega 6 fatty acids garlic added for parasite control industry leading color enhancer, zero nitrates and extremely low ash and phosphorous.
<Other than the nitrite and pH, that sounds fine.>
I'm afraid however, I've just about given up already. Fish die in my care and some within a day or two.
<Not good..>
I haven't been able to keep one fish going for longer than 2 or 3 weeks.
<Something is seriously amiss.>
I'm afraid to go back to my fish stores for fear that they won't sell me another fish I'm so embarrassed.
They're probably keeping track of how many I've bought so as to make sure I'm not over stocking my tank.
<Not likely.>
I don't have the courage to tell them that the ones before have all died. I have to drive out of my area just to find other new fish. I feel so bad.
Right before a fish would die I'd notice white spots looking like sand that showed up after it was being harassed by another fish.
<Ahh, Marine Ich Have a read here:
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ichartmar.htm and here:
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ichart2mar.htm >
After it stressed from all of the chasing the white spots would show. I was told that these
spots were signs of stress and fish die from stress and exhaustion.
<Not even close. You have been given incorrect information.>
A local shop sold me live rock that had just come in from Fiji. I think they might have been in too much of a hurry to sell it however because it wasn't cured all of the way before they sold it. I didn't realize that.
<uh oh.>
My fish started to die and I just thought it was bad luck or bad choice of combination on my ignorant part (again) so I kept reading up on things until the wee hours of the night researching information and selecting what I thought were the right fish but they all died too. Finally another fish store owner, after hearing my sad pathetic story about my tank said that it was the live rock wiping out my tank and killing off my fish.
<If the live rock was still cycling, yes it was - it was giving off ammonia and nitrite.>
A store sold me two maroon clowns and bagged them together and when I got them home one of the clown fish had fins that were chewed up and shredded!
<Not at all surprising. Maroon Clowns are very aggressive.>
They must have fought the whole 5 minuets it took me to get
home!
<Likely so.>
They didn't last in my tank either. I put a cardinal in my tank and one survived and the other died the second it hit the water.
<You need to read about Quarantine and Dipping procedures. It keeps diseases like ich out of your tank Read here:
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/QuarMarFishes.htm and here:
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/dips_baths.htm >
I don't understand that.
Seems I either buy fish that don't mesh with each other and they fight to the death or fish that just don't make it.
<You need to stop adding fish.>
I would like more than just 4 fish in this tank. Perhaps freshwater fish that are small would be a better choice to give me a tank filled with beautiful fish to watch rather than 4 or 5 fish. I haven't met any beautiful freshwater fish though.
<There are several, but that is for another letter. :) >
I had a coral beauty and I bought a Bicolor Pygmy Angel and they both died with in 24 hours. The coral beauty lived 2 days but when I put the angel in the next day they were both lying dead next to each other.
<A very bad idea to put two dwarf angels together in the same tank. Read here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/marine/fishes/angels/centropyge/ >
Now I've been reading about quarantine tanks and Dips and although I don't know why these fish died I do think that I would have been able to prevent some possibilities by understanding the importance of both of these.
<yes.>
The store I bought my present fish from checked a few fish books behind the counter while I stood there and told me I'd be "just fine" with my 55 gallon tank when they sold me the following: 1-Panther Grouper, 1- Lunar Wrasse, 1-Porcupine Puffer and 3 Blue Green Chromis.
<Nyet, Nein, Non, No, no, a thousand times no.>
Well I can now tell you that I won't be "just fine" and neither will these fish.
<Exactly.>
I'm going to have to donate these fish to another store or a zoo!. The Wrasse probably won't live longer than 3 months in captivity and the Panther will out grow my tank faster than my 6 year old daughter outgrows her shoes. The Chromis fish look okay and the Puffer, well his face is about as pathetic looking as mine.
Cute but a sad and sorry face. :-)
<The puffer will not do well in a 55 either. will get too big and obnoxious.>
It's odd, at first I was embarrassed to go back to the stores because so many of the fish had died in my care.
I didn't want to show my face I felt so sad and ashamed.
But now, I'm not so sure that the stores are all that "concerned" about the "fish" after all?
<Some do, many do not.>
I had a goby but I couldn't find it. I lost it, can you believe that. I am so bad I actually lost a fish in my own
tank! In a rock somewhere I think. I took out the live rock to move it around and the goby was gone. It finally showed up dead lying in the sand. I'm pathetic I tell you.
<You are learning - the hard and expensive way, but yo are learning.>
I've been up to 3:00 am night after night reading your website and trying to learn everything. Saltwater fish might be to delicate and expensive for a rookie like me.
<No, you just need to learn.>
Maybe I'll do better with freshwater fish. Maybe it doesn't matter what kind of fish I pick.
My question for you at this point is, I'm wondering if perhaps it's not about the kind of fish but more about something else that makes this a successful experience.
Is that possibly true?
<Rule #1 NOTHING good ever happens quickly in a saltwater tank.>
All this work on my tank and testing equipment and filters and such makes me want to ask, is having a successful aquarium a constant ongoing delicate balance between water conditions, food types, species and knowledge or is having a successful aquarium a delicate balance no matter what, simply because we're trying to keep this species in captivity?
<It is a delicate balance always. When properly set up, it isn't difficult. Do have a read here:
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/marine/setup/marsetupindex1.htm >
For me, I haven't gotten off to a very successful start.
<But we can always learn and correct our mistakes.>
Best Regards,
<My pleasure, do write back if you have other questions.>
Jenaraye
<MikeV>

Re: I Can't Keep a Fish Alive QT, Ich Attack use. 9\5\2009
Thank you for your response and information, links and time.
<My pleasure.>
I read the information you offered and more. In the meantime the Chromis died and at first it looked like they might have been crushed by rock but I thought it was too odd and coincidental to happen to both.
<yes.>
Then the 3rd one showed signs of injury or fungus on his back. Suddenly my nitrites went from 0 to .25 and I noticed the puffer had the white spots looking like sand all over the eyes and fins.
<It seems as if your tank is going through a series of mini cycles.>
I took a photo of both the puffer and the panther. (attached) You can't see anything on the panther because he's so white himself, but he takes a nice photo nonetheless) As for the wrasse well, he's hard to photograph but he does like to lie beside the Panther for some odd reason so I might get my chance.
I bought the "Ich Attack"
<Not the best choice for medicine. I would go so far as to say it is useless . Copper or Quinine are the only methods that really work.>
and took out the filters that you normally use when you run the Emperor 400. (These have carbon in them I assume tucked in behind the blue filter material so I'm assuming the filter must be run without these and with water only) and I left the skimmer on and put the Ich Attack in the tank.
<Oops...>
But then I realized that I had read that this would not do any good because of my live rock. Not only would my live rock render it useless but my live rock might no longer be any good either after doing this. I went back to my reading and went out to the store and purchased a 10 gallon tank as it was late at night. I set up the tank and placed the Wrasse the Panther and the Puffer in the tank after I had checked the water levels and salt levels and made sure all was at the 0 level and salt was at 1.022 and High PH 8.4.
<Very good recovery on the mistake.>
The Puffer didn't make it however as of today.
<Sorry to hear this.>
The Wrasse and Panther are still in the QT. Meanwhile in my 55 gallon I took the opportunity to vacuumed the sand (another thing I'm not quite sure the best way to do).
<Not so different from doing it in a FW tank.>
When you say leave the tank "fallow" do you mean leave everything turned off for days and let the water sit until it is time to return the fish back to the tank and this will help kill the ich in the tank as well?
<Leave the filtration system running, but with no fish for 4 weeks.>
When should I change the water in the main tank to flush out the Ich Attack that I put into the main tank that got all over my live rock?
<Since you used Ich Attack, I would not worry too much. It will filter out - just do your normal water changes.>
I'm on my way now back to read up on how long to leave them in the QT and levels for acclimating them back into the main tank.
<Very good.>
Currently in the QT tank the levels are Nitrates 0, Nitrites 0, Ammonia 0 High PH 8.5 and Salinity 1.019 and the temp is 81 degrees F.
<All good.>
If these two fish don't make it I might not keep this tank as a saltwater tank but turn it into a freshwater tank and start again from the beginning.
<It is easy to get frustrated. Just go a bit slower.>
I'm having success with my 10 gallon and 29 gallon freshwater tanks here at home for some reason and haven't replaced any fish and I tend to them weekly. I must have stocked them right. Either way, I enjoy taking care of the tanks and their water and find it therapeutic to test and change the water once a week and sometimes more just for the fun of it, I admit :-)
<Enjoy the hobby .>
Thanks again.
<MikeV>

Ich Questions: SW Crypt 8/11/2009
Hi Mike,
<Hello Junaid.>
Hope you are doing well. It has been a long time since my last question.
<Doing well thanks, been traveling quite a bit lately, I was in your part of the world last month in fact (Montreal)>
Everything in my tank is going well and coming along really good with additions of new corals, etc. However, I recently had my first case of ich disease break out. I just started using Proto Marin Coral made by Aquarium Munster.
<I've heard of this product. Unfortunately, I would not classify it as reef safe.
<1 ml Aquarium Munster Proto Marin Coral contains: 1.25 mg of tetramethyl-4,4-diamino-triphenyl-carbinol, <Carbinol form of Malachite Green)0.10 mg of ethacridine lactate <An antiseptic>, 0.10 mg
tetramethylthionine chloride<Methylene Blue>, 0.05 mg hexamethyl-pararosaniline chloride<Gentian Violet>>
In the instructions, it says to switch off protein skimmer and UVLamps. I understand the need to turn off the protein skimmer. I am running T5s on my tank. Do I need to turn these off until the treatment is done as
well? <No, the lighting will be fine. UV Lamps operate is a specific spectrum.>
The instructions say to turn them off on Days 1, 2, 4 and 5 and turn them on for only Days 3 and 6 along with the protein skimmer. Please let me know if it will be okay to turn the lights off. I have a descent amount of corals and worried that turning the lights off will negatively affect the corals.
<The Corals will survive not having the lights for a few days. However, I am concerned that the medication may harm the corals. If moving the fish is not an option, is it possible to move the corals?>
Thanks!
<Here are a few articles on marine ich:
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ichart2mar.htm and
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ichartmar.htm >
<Do let me know hot is works out.>
<MikeV>

Aquarium Munster Protomarin Coral Active Ingredients: 8/11/2009
Hi Bob,
<Mike>
Had a query today from a long time reader. He is using Aquarium Munster Protomarin Coral I've seen a few queries on this product in the past, with the key problem being nobody know the active ingredients.
So after a bit of digging, I noticed they used the proper chemical rather than the common names.
1 ml Aquarium Munster Protomarin Coral contains:
1.25 mg of tetramethyl-4,4-diamino-triphenyl-carbinol, (Carbinol form of Malachite Green)
0.10 mg of ethacridine lactate, (A mild antiseptic trade name Acrinol or Rivianol)
0.10 mg tetramethylthionine chloride, (Methylene Blue)
0.05 mg hexamethyl-pararosaniline chloride (A blast from the past.... Gentian Violet)
<Ah yes>
It is definitely more "reef safe" than copper, but I still would not consider it safe for use in a tank with corals, For that matter, not likely to be very effective against Crypt.
Mike
<We are in close agreement. None of these compounds used independently or together are of much use in reef systems. Bob Fenner>

Sick long horn cowfish, Crypt treatment... NOT reading WWM before writing, using sham "trtmt.s" 6/17/09
I purchased about 2 months ago and he's about 5-6" long in a 36 gallon tank
- 2 clowns, 2 shrimp right now.
<Much too small of a tank for this fish, needs a larger tank now. See here and related FAQs for more http://www.wetwebmedia.com/boxfishes.htm .>
He got what appeared to be ich about 4-5weeks ago. Treated with Kick Ich
<5- nitroimidazoles, not an effective treatment.>
without any filters, seemed to get better so put the filters back in, he got it again, so treated for 3 days with
Rally, which seemed to make him really lethargic.
<Are you treating in the main tank? This is rarely a good idea, impossible to maintain therapeutic levels and can wreak havoc on your biofilter.
Rally is Acriflavine, aminoacridine and formalin, which are antiseptics and formaldehyde, not something I would add to my main tank, and with the exception of the formalin of questionable use here.>
He was head down floating in the bubbles for almost 24 hours and then just laying on the bubbles after
that. I immediately changed out 25% of the water, put filters back in and he seemed to get back to normal as far as moving around within 24 hours.
All during this time he had no problems with his appetite or breathing.
Now the ich (or whatever) is back all over him, including his eyes, which also look a little cloudy.
<Not surprising, what are your current water parameter. Test and make you are not seeing a ammonia/nitrite spike which is compounding your issues.>
My fish expert that I buy from is on a cruise and cannot get in touch with her. I don't want to lose this fish. She suggested stopping all treatment until this weekend to see how he does.
<Is better that over treating.>
I give him immo?? Vitamins, and medication and algae in his food.
<Ok>
Do you have any suggestions as to why these treatments have not worked?
Thank you,
Dawn
<To be blunt you are not using effective treatments in my opinion. For a scaleless fish like this I would be treating with either formalin, which is very toxic to both humans and fish but better than copper in this
particular case, or ideally with a Quinine based drug, which while expensive is effective. In either case I would be treating outside the main tank in a dedicated hospital tank. However long term this fish cannot
stay in this sized tank, its just too small. See here for more, and check out the links at the bottom for more excellent articles
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ichartmar.htm .>
<Chris>

Marine Ich: Hyposalinity/Ich Attack 4/14/2009
<Hi Wes>
I have a 55 gallon with an ich outbreak.
<Ouch>
1 clown, striped damsel, blenny and a couple of crabs and snails left.
I've been dosing it with Kordon's Ich Attack.
<While I like most of Kordon's products, Ich Attack is pretty much useless.
Any medication that tells you to use it when there are no symptoms as a disease preventative, and to double the dose if the infection is "severe", will not list the ingredients, and states that the best results are achieved when infections are "anticipated" isn't really a medicine.>
The spots on my clown keeps coming back. Its almost a week now since the treatment. I'm considering hypo on the whole tank.
<Hyposalinity is not effective by itself.>
Will hyposalinity kill the beneficial bacteria from my LR and LS? <<It might. RMF>>
<No, but it will harm any invertebrates on your LR and LS. Please read here:
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ichartmar.htm
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ichart2mar.htm
The best way to treat ich is to get the infected fish into a hospital\quarantine tank and because you have clownfish, treat with quinine sulfate. You can purchase quinine sulfate at:
http://www.nationalfishpharm.com
You can read more about treatment treating with quinine here:
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/quinmedfaqs.htm
As an absolute last resort, you can treat your display tank with quinine, but it will kill all snails in your tank and can be toxic to other invertebrates.>
Thanks!
<You're welcome>
Wes
<Mike>

ICH, SW, diag., novel trtmt.s, reading... 3/19/09
HI,
<Hello>
I have a 75 gal saltwater tank that I set up approx. 4wks ago. I have a problem with Aiptasia and have gotten a red legged "Hairy" crab and have gotten 4 peppermint shrimp (which have absolutely no interest in these pest).
<Not uncommon.>
I have 2 clown (Nemo) fish and one sweet lip (juvenile),
<The Sweet Lips will outgrow this tank.>
<<Much more likely to perish, "mysteriously"... RMF>>
I noticed 2 nights ago after a 50% w/c due to high NO2 and NH3 levels. my fish developed what
looks like white sand granules on them. After reading up on this, it sounds like ICH.
<Could be.>
My Sweet Lips has developed this spasm like motion which I assume is to try and rid itself of these parasites. My clowns developed the white spots the next day. My question is, I went to my local saltwater store and they sold me something called Sano Broad Spectrum Organic Reef tank Remedies. I was
told to treat the whole tank with this (leaving all fish in tank).
<Ich should always be treated for in a hospital tank, all effective treatments will cause problems with your biofilter and invertebrate life.>
According to the instruction sheet, this is a 2 days treatment.
<There is no treatment that I have ever heard that is effective that quickly.>
This Sano comes in 2 small bottle ( maybe 10ml each), using 1 drop/5 gal.
This stuff is very expensive
$47. Have you ever heard of this stuff?
<Have not, but checked out their website, I don't put much faith in this treatment.>
I went to local Pet Supplies and they had several ICH remedies for much cheaper $5. Please help. my Sweet Lips was $50 and I'd hate to lose her or my clowns to this.
<Stick with what is proven to work, see here for more
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ichartmar.htm ,
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ichart2mar.htm .>
Thanks
Mitzi
<Welcome>
<Chris>

Question about treatment for crypt, won't work f' -- 02/28/09 Hi Bob, Eric, Sara, Scott, and everyone else I have spoken to or met! <Kerstin> Long time no talk...I seem to finally be recovering under the weight of all my volunteer duties (school, scouts, etc.), and so... It has been a while since I have written, but of late I have been perusing, trying to find an answer...and would love to have an input on what my friend and I seem to be doing wrong (honest - it's her tank...I am even providing her name this time!). Here's the history: Jo Ann and I moved her tank on Feb. 7. It is a 29-gallon set up with an AquaC skimmer and an AquaClear 110 converted to a refugium. The entire move - removing the then sole fish (a centropyge acanthops), the rocks and corals, and then moving the tank, adding a little bit more sand, and returning the corals, rocks, and fish, took just over 3 hours. At the same time, since she had just rearranged the tank (removed his territory) and effectively done a 30% water change, she added the yellow tang she had been keeping in QT. <... this volume is too small for a Zebrasoma> All seemed fine, and everyone was getting along great...until Valentine's Day. On this day Jo Ann came home from a trade show to discover that the centropyge had crypt. Because she didn't call me until 9 that evening, we waited until the next morning; however, by the early afternoon on the next day, she had a 20-gallon quarantine tank set up with both fish in it. Only the centropyge had the white spots, but to be safe, she put both fish in the QT (along with 2 plastic rocks that could provide hiding places for them). By Monday we had gotten a hold of our usual LFS; after much searching, the only medicine we could get a hold of was Rid Ich, and she proceeded to do that treatment. The centropyge responded (or the crypt simply decided, as is its wont) to drop off, and all seemed to be progressing...regular water changes to the QT, and all seemed fine. Skip forward a week to this past Monday... To make sure her fish were doing alright, Jo Ann asked me to come by. When we looked at her fish and ran a bunch of tests, we determined that: - a. her centropyge looked slimy (primarily on the blue portion of his body), - b. her tang had some fin problems (a few pinholes in his fins, and a slight split in the top and bottom fins - <Could be the move, being new, the RidIch...> he had this problem in his previous QT, and had healed up during the short week in the display tank), and - c. while the QT's ammonia was 0, the nitrites and nitrates weren't (still on the chart for the API test kit, but not by much). pH is 8.2, Specific Gravity 1.025; temp had been raised to 80 to help (hopefully) speed up the crypt's lifecycle. At this point, we did several things: - 1. I loaned her my HOT filter - we did a lopsided water change (removed 3 gallons, added 7 to truly top off the tank), and then we first ran charcoal to get rid of any remaining RidIch before she put the micron-filter cartridge in the HOT - 2. we also had called the LFS, and his suggestion was the LifeGard treatment for the Centropyge's fungus, which we started. Admittedly, somewhere in there, she misunderstood the directions, and the first night she ran the Lifegard while also having the filter cartridge in the filter...so the treatment may not have done any good. <Agreed> The problem is that the next morning, after starting the treatment with the Lifegard, the nitrates and nitrites were both off the chart...despite the small water change and running the filter. Also, the slime seemed to be worse. Today the slime seems to still be there, the centropyge is opening his mouth more as if to breather better, the tang doesn't seem to be any better or worse, and the white crypt spots seem to be back. So my questions are: 1. Are we following the right route? <Right? I would have not used the AS product... I would have removed the chemical filtrant> I finally found a source of the quinine sulfate - Crypt Pro, at NationalFishPharm.com - and it sounds like it would cure everything the centropyge is suffering from. 2. Would it help to move the skimmer to the QT tank; then simply run it with a bleach solution once the QT period is over? <Is one approach> It is my understanding, along with some bigger water changes, that this would help reduce the nitrites and nitrates. <The water changes, change out is what I'd do at this point> 3. Would huge (I am thinking 50%) water changes on a daily basis to the QT be the best option? <Likely so> 4. Do you have any other ideas - either of what else we can do, or what we possibly did wrong? <All posted on WWM> I greatly appreciate all of your help - Jo Ann has done lots of reading on articles I sent here, we thought we followed all the various instructions we had read, with the exception of having the hardest time finding the Quinine - and our LFS didn't have any copper, which is not great for angels anyway. <Agreed... but there are other techniques... an intermittent/intermediate bath (FW, pH-adjusted... likely with formalin) might have effected a cure at such an early juncture> Thanks in advance for your advice, and I apologize for the lengthy email - somehow I just thought this all started with the move, and so I thought I would include the whole history. BTW, I enjoyed rereading Scott's article about what a wonder small water changes done often will do - it seems to be helping with my recurring Bryopsis <Look into small Cowries... Cypraea moneta, C. caputserpentis...> and other hair algae problem... Hope you're having a great day, Kerstin:-)

Addendum to "Question about treatment for crypt"-- 02/28/09 Before you ask - I just wanted to mention (I always seem to think of more stuff later...no matter how long I take to compose the email): - Both the tang and angel are eating well. They get not only a mix of the Ocean Nutrition flakes, but also the Spectrum pellets and, every other day, some Nori on a clip. - We have contemplated also the possible donation to the QT of a live rock - that would afterwards of course become a base rock from being boiled and dried. <Don't do this... will absorb any chemical treatment> - While Jo Ann would like to do a 6-8 week quarantine separate from the DT (make sure the ich cycle is truly broken), would it be better from a stress point of view to return the two fish to the DT to help them recover better (ie. is the angelfish suffering more from the stress than the crypt itself, hence the film on him and the fin damage to the tang?). <Is another route to go... Please read here: http://wetwebmedia.com/parasittkfaq2.htm and the linked files above... till you understand the gist> Didn't know if that information helps or not...again, Jo Ann and I thank you in advance for all your help. Kerstin:-) <Welcome. BobF>

Ich., Treatments 2/25/09 Hi, <Hello> Do you guys have any views on a product http://www.seachem.com/Products/product_pages/NeoPlex.html for the treatment of Ich? Regards, Adam. <NeoPlex is an antibiotic, neomycin sulfate, as stated on that page, and not an effective treatment for Ich.> <Chris>

Ich Day 22 1/4/09 Hello, <Good morrow> I recently acquired a pink tail trigger, and he was infested with Cryptocaryon, aka ich. I have him in hypo in a qt tank and am now at day 22 of being at or below 1.009 SG. There is no visible sign of reduced white spots. I Googled the chloramine <Mmm, no... Chloroquine... not chloramine...> phosphate and looks like I can't get it locally. Should I wait another week with this hypo, <...> or just resign to treating with chloramine phosphate? I put my clownfish in the qt as well, because he was exposed to the trigger. The clown had no signs of ich until the 16th day, and now has visible spots as well. <So it goes too often with hyposalinity. Read here: http://wetwebmedia.com/ca/volume_4/V4I4/hyposalinity/OST.htm and the linked FAQs files at the bottom> The temperature is now at 80F but was 78F for the first two and a half weeks. I've attached a picture of the trigger at Day 22 in hypo. <See the mucus markings on this fish? I do hope its kidneys have not been permanently damaged> Not quite sure I understood what one of the links was talking about when it mentioned swapping between tanks daily. <Mmm, likely someone is referring to attempts at Crypt eradication by vacuuming or dumping out system water daily... to remove the tomites... "off host" stage of this Protozoan> Does that mean buy two heaters, two filters, two tanks or was it implied that the heater, light and filter would rotate daily as well? <Could mean this... or as I state, simply vacuuming the bottom of the one...> 30 gals a day of RODI water is a lot! I thought a 30 gal tank was already small for the trigger; would two 10 gal tanks work or is that just asking for more trouble? <How big is this specimen? Actually... let us "cut to the chase"... and I'll state that I would not go the hypo route period... It's not working here (rarely does)... See the Crypt section: http://wetwebmedia.com/ichartmar.htm and peruse the MANY linked files above... and get on with a copper treatment here before your fishes are dead from stress> I guess I am just looking for some more guidance on which path to take. Thanks in advance, Alison
<Read on my friend, read on. Bob Fenner>

ick attach... Kordon product 11/25/08 Hi, a fellow reefer has a RBTA and used ick attach in their tank. They have a RBTA in the tank that is not doing very well. I know what your going to say treat fish in separate tank. Question is just how harmful is this ick attack to the BTA? <... see WWM re... I am not a fan of this product period, nor its exposure/use in display systems, particularly ones with invertebrates. We've recently had someone write in accounting for a bad reaction with an anemone and this product> Active ingredients: 5% active ingredients (multiple natural herbals containing Napthoquinone) They emailed you but have not received an answer. They are very worried about the RBTA, any advice would be helpful, I will pass it on. Thank you, Linda

Kordon Ich Attack and Effects 11/23/08 Hi WWM, A fellow RC'er directed me to you to ask a question regarding some problems I am having. . A friend of mine dosed Kordon's Ich Attack in her 45gallon a year ago, in order to save a fish that was covered in ich. (She knows now not to mess with medication after I warned her) The product worked and it save the fish. But she did notice every time that she dosed, her RBTA would shrink, and turn all black. But would eventually return to its normal form. The treatment went on for 2 weeks. After that she did a large water change and ran carbon. This medication says that its organic so she assumes it safe. <...? A common mis/understanding... being "organic" implies only that the compound/molecules involved contain the element carbon... or to a lesser understanding, that the material originates from life somehow... There are MANY such chemicals that are deadly toxic> How ever as time passed the bubble tip anemone bleached a bit, and shrunk in size. Its been about 8 month since the treatment, and the anemone still looks the same. It has not take back its original color or grown in size, but it still eats. Its mouth is also slightly open, I don't know what's going on and the last time I tested her water her nitrates were a bit high. So I don't know if its the medication that's messing with it or just poor water quality. I would like to also know if you have any experience with this so called Ich Attack Active ingredients: 5% active ingredients (multiple natural herbals containing Naphthoqu http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=12100 <I do have some background with this material (and the company, Kordon/Novalek, and the previous owner/originator, Bob Rofen). The gist of what I am able and comfortable in relating is that this material is not always safe nor effective. I do not endorse its use, particularly in an established "mixed" fish and invertebrate setting. I do want to state that I am a "fan" of most of Kordon's products and Dr. Rofen's efforts in our interest however. Bob Fenner>

Naso Tang 007, hlth. 10/14/08 Dear Crew, First off, thank you for a wonderful web-site. I just happen upon it a few weeks ago and thoroughly enjoying reading all the vast amount of information. It's very commendable of you to offer such a tremendous service. I do own a copy of CMA. Great book Dr. Fenner! <Mmm, no doctorate, just Bob, please> I'm somewhat of a newbie in that I left the hobby several years ago as time constraints (i.e. 3 children) along with moving to new residence kept me from re-establishing my tank. Anyhow, my reason for writing today is that I am starting up my 300 gal. FOWLR and have made my first fish purchase. One of the fish being a 6" Blonde Naso Tang. This fish was offered at discount through the retailer (F&S) you mention on your web-site frequently. (I wonder if it had been in their tank for long period of time, thus the reason for the discounted price?) <Possibly> I received the fish on Weds. afternoon and by Sat. morning he developed what appears to me to be Lateral Line Disease. I am attaching a picture for your review. The Naso was placed in quarantine tank 30 gal.(4' x 1' x 1' ) upon receipt on Weds. 10/08. The water in the quarantine tank is being treated each day with Kordon's Prevent Ich per their instructions. <Mmm, won't "treat" HLLE... in fact the ingredients here, the further stress... will drive all the other direction> Water parameters are as follows: spg 1.023, <Mmm, low, but likely better here for gas exchange purposes> ammonia 0, nitrites 0, nitrates <5, temp. 76, ph 8.2. He is currently not accepting food i.e. mysis shrimp, krill dip in vita-chem, red algae w/garlic sheets, flakes, etc. <Stop! I would move this fish (back) into the 300 gallon setting... The etiology/causative mechanism of the syndrome shown won't "spread" as a consequence to other livestock... and otherwise the chance of this fish resolving is very small> He is not actively swimming around tank, occasional stroll and then sits on bottom. <More bad behavior> Today, Monday, he has started gilling. I have been using a power head position right at the water-line to agitate the surface so that there's plenty of air mixing with the water. <Mmm, not for this species... Move it> Could you please confirm my diagnoses and provide any other information on treatment as well as suggestions on what else can be done to save him. I read all that I could find own your web-site with respect HIHLL and seems to me that the general consensus for its cause is related to nutrition and water quality. <Yes, this is so> With that being the case, what could have caused this condition in such a short period of time (3 1/2 days) given the water parameters? <Stress period... as you speculate, just how long has this fish been kept, moved about in sub-par conditions?> Your response most appreciated.
<Welcome. Bob Fenner>

Re: Emailing: Naso Tag 007... reading... Crypt 10/14/08 Thank you Bob for your response. <Welcome Scott> Sorry about calling you Dr. but, a man of with your wealth of knowledge and experience certainly qualifies you to be one. Just wanted to clarify a few things. First off, the Tang did perish yesterday afternoon ( I wish I had received your reply sooner as I would have acted on your advise to move him). Secondly, I was following the personal recommendation of one Kordon's scientist/marine biologist who said I should quarantine all tangs for about six weeks <Mmm, please see at least WWM re my opinions here and rationale for same... we differ> and treat the quarantine tank initially with Kordon's organic Prevent Ich product <... and my input re this product. NOT reliable> for seven days and stop if no Ich presents. He stated that Tangs were notorious for carrying Ich <This is so> and by using this product it would likely eradicate any internal/external parasites( I assumed he wasn't giving me a sales pitch!). <Mostly> The HIHLL problem did not present until after nearly two days of quarantining. <Likely the Kordon product was more cause here...> I did not realize that the product in question would create additional stress as there is no information to contrary on Kordon's Prevent Ich label/ web-site. Thirdly, I did not do a freshwater dip as your web-site seemed to indicate that this method should not be utilized for Tangs unless parasites were observed on the fish prior to placing it in the quarantine tank. Would this have made a difference for this fish? <Perhaps... but... only can guess> So should I be employing a different strategy for my quarantining fish? <... you should... read> This Kordon product is somewhat new and does not require water changes during treatment (tremendous benefit). <... again, take a look on the BBs... others input... Kordon is a good co., with many fine products... this is not one of them> All other fish, yellow tang, blue hippo, and one spot fox face seem to be doing fine during this treatment. Thank you again for your time. Scott <BobF>

Ich, copper and DT 7/24/08 Hello, <Hi there> I was wondering if you could offer some advice in regards to my ich problem. I have a 150gal FOWLR display tank and a 40gal QT. Unfortunately the fish I have are too many and too large to be able to treat in my QT. So after doing some research I came to the conclusion that the best course of action is to remove the LR from the DT, put it in a large container with salt water, heater and powerhead, remove all my inverts and place them in my separate fuge, then treat the DT and fish with copper. <... a very poor idea> What do you think? Would you advise this? <No and no> The DT would have only the fish and 1" live sand. <... the copper won't stay in solution, and you'll be killing most all in the LS> There would be no inverts or LR at all. <So?> I plan to treat using Cupramine. <A good product I'll warrant, but won't work here> How long should I treat the tank? Would 3 weeks get rid of the ich on the fish and the DT? The live rock, I would leave in the separate container for 6 weeks and I would leave the fuge disconnected from the main sump also for 6 weeks. Thank you for any help you can provide. -Peter <Happy to banter with you... If you're set on trying a cure in the main set-up, I'd look into (and quickly) the use of Chloroquine phosphate... the search tool, on WWM, the Net... Bob Fenner>

Re: Ich, copper and DT 7/24/08 Hello, <Peter> Thank you for the quick reply. <Deemed necessary... as is this resp. here> So the copper treatment would be ineffective because the copper would be absorbed by the live sand and keeping the correct concentration would be difficult? <Adsorbed> Would I be able to keep the correct concentration if I test the copper level daily and add as necessary? <No... have tried this... with many gallons of Cupramine... in commercial settings... over decades of time... You don't have to repeat my lack of success. Won't work> Would hyposalinity work better in this case? Maybe keep the display tank and fish in hypo for 4 weeks. <... sorry to state, I don't have time to re-write all of this... IS posted on WWM, in books, articles penned by me...> I understand the live sand would die in both cases. But with hyposalinity, it would re-populate once the live rock is added back to the tank. Plus I would be able to return the inverts once the treatment is over. Something I can't do if using copper. Thank you for the suggestion of using Chloroquine phosphate. I will research it on the net and WWM. -Peter

Alternative treatment for a common marine parasite... Commercial Crypt remedies, prevention - 07/19/08 Hello, I was wondering if anyone on the team has had any good experience with giving a marine fish with crypt a freshwater bath in place of a more 'solid' technique, such as copper treatment or hyposalinity (not that hypo is Bob's favorite)? <Some folks report success with such... perhaps their trials involve fishes with only superficial infestations... maybe these are principally only symptomatic...> I'm more of a Cupramine guy myself (in a separate treatment tank), but it seems my employer would like me to use freshwater baths exclusively in the main display / selling tanks which also house invertebrate life. <Mmm... I strongly suggest that they, you do a bit of further considering here... I would do FW baths on arrival (pH adjusted, with formalin if a commercial setting)... and even better to best, keep all incoming fish livestock quarantined for a few weeks before showing, offering it to the public... I would NOT mix fish and invertebrate livestock in a wholesale or retail setting... period> No option for separate treatment in a different tank. So while not my favorite option it will probably still give results and just wanted to fine tune it with some input. If you could tell me your frequency of the bath, duration of the bath you find effective. <Won't be... like the idea of invading countries, murdering their citizens to "make people free", this idea is contrary to reality. How to put this another way... it won't work> And if you combo it with gravel vacuuming - water change, the frequency and percentage of water changed. If you use any other methods with it such as melafix <... API should be sued back to the stone ages for this and other faux products and their promotion. Really. Have stated this often and loudly enough. This product is garbage> for bacterial infections of crypt wounds or cleaner gobies / shrimp to lending a helping hand, or anything else which might contribute to a recovery. <All this is gone over and over on WWM> I was considering fw bath repeated daily for 14 days, <... no... too much time, trouble, and stress on the fish livestock. Ridiculous> 7 min duration, gravel vacuuming bottom of tank 5 gallons out of 60 every fourth day or so, melafix dosed daily, <Please...> few cleaning shrimp there for luck. <Don't rely on luck...> Considering use of a U.V. sterilizer instead of melafix, but not likely. Trading out treatment of secondary infections for a unknown increased destruction of the parasites free swimming stage. experience and suggestions appreciated, and thank you for your time, Jonathan <Thank you for sharing Jonathan. A note to browsers through time... this is actually an indicative case, window into the thinking, operation of the trade... A reminder that many folks, though honest, of good intent, don't really know much re the science of actual husbandry of ornamental aquatics. Bob Fenner>

Re: Alternative treatment for a common marine parasite, Crypt 07/20/2008 Again my hand is forced by my employer's policy, ie p*tco. <Mmm, do know that I worked at corp... as a consultant/buyer for this co. 91-94... to bring in/make sense of aquatic livestock... Quite an ordeal> I don't agree with the policy and have been close to walking out of door, and have been saddened by the loss of life that could have been prevented through dedicated quarantine / treatment systems. <I... empathize> Either you quit / walk out or try to make the broken toy work for spoiled child. Have had results on using melafix to clear up bad eyes and slight bacterial damage, not as a treatment for crypt as some people desire it to be. There was one post by someone who was using the daily freshwater bath method from your crew, the individual who received this suggestion responded by saying something to the effect of "wow, everyday? That's harsh", to which the crew replied <so is copper> <Yes> The fish has to be returned to the same tank it came from, ie the infested tank. One could give the fish a freshwater bath and put it into a different tank with healthy fish, but its likely that bath won't sterilize the animal of it and it will get the others sick. The freshwater bath / gravel vacuum technique is used by others I have read, usually as a hell-bent way of "I'm definitely not using a separate treatment tank", "I don't want to treat the main display with any medication or altering of the salinity", "I can't afford a sterilizer which may or may not anything", and agreed the cleaner shrimp are manly pretty placebos. <... I encourage you to make a presentation... ask for some time to meet with the store, then Regional (Op.s) Manager... to in turn present your input, ideas to corporate/San Diego... to change whatever policy. Particularly "On Arrival" acclimation/baths to largely prevent the introduction of these parasites, their establishment in your systems> The variables I can control are how often I give the bath and its duration. How frequent I gravel vacuum the bottom of the tank and how much water I take out. I do remember another member of WWM crew claiming to have effected a cure of a flame angel by daily vacuuming of a 10 gallon bare bottom tank 50% premade saltwater. <It/this can be done... but does take dedication, time... You seem to understand the underlying principles> I can't do that volume with a 60, but I can do its frequency if there is results. In this limited situation Would freshwater bath every 3rd or 4th or 5th day with daily vacuuming be more appropriate? <Yes> As for freshwater baths upon arrival, I have done those, <Ah, good... with formalin and aeration I hope/trust> and continue to do so for tangs and fish that frequently have this problem. But even in a tank that contains only fish delivered that week, and has had no previous problem for months, to which all were given proper freshwater baths crypt still does break out, so while doing proper fresh water baths on arrival probably reduces the frequency of its occurrence its probably not stone cold guarantee you won't get it. The last paragraph in your reply is understandable considering the items I suggested. Its not that I want to do them its that I'm handcuffed to poor equipment and policy. Have risked my job and changed things and gotten good results using a 'communal copper treatment tank' for those who developed problems (ie crypt). And even that is not an answer to all the various and different problems that can present itself. I just don't have enough dedicated treatment tanks, allowances to recovery all that can be recovered. Not that I lack the knowledge to do so. Sorry to go on, No one on the crew has any recommendations for this compromised procedure? Frequency/duration of bath, frequency, percentage of gravel vacuum water change? <Five-seven minutes... daily, all the gravel vacuumed> I think 'ridiculous' was what I first thought about doing this as an alternative to a more proven technique. <Just... not something I want to encourage carte blanche (on the Net)... as a likely procedure that will be successful for all... too much work, too stressful, too likely to not work> cheers, hand cuffed employee <Perhaps a move/stint in an independent shop... Bob Fenner>

Marine Ich... cures? 7/18/08 Hi guys & girls I just wanted to say that this web site is awesome & has helped me with so much valuable information. I am fairly new to saltwater aquariums, I currently have a 50 gal freshwater which I have had for years. This Jan I bought a 40 gallon tank which I was going to go fresh water but decided to go salt, now I am hooked! I have now purchased a 120 gallon oceanic tank which is in it's 3rd week of cycle, 200 Lbs LR, 4" Live sand bed, upgraded protein skimmer, & lighting. Sorry I'll get to the point I bought a blue tang 2 months ago, I know tank to <too> small but knew I was getting the big tank, after the 3rd week he got marine ich & I was told that using Garlic extract, 2 drops at each feeding would work, I don't have a quarantine tank so had no choice. <...> After 2 days along with the help of my 2 cleaner shrimp it worked! No more ich & none of my other fish got it! <Uhhh> Have a Coral Beauty, Flame Angel & Yellow Tang with 2 Sand sifter gobies. I do believe this treatment works cause it did for me, more research should be done cause it is a lot less work, not that I mind, but less stress on our fish friends. Can't say enough about your web site, it is awesome, keep up the good work! Brian Macdonald Toronto, Ontario <Thank you for this account. I assure you, your system is still infested... Let us (esp. you) hope that it is not triggered into anything more than a latent, debilitation. Bob Fenner>

Re: Marine Ich... cures? -07/18/08 Thanks Bob for the reply <Welcome> If (when my big tank is ready) I put my fish in the new tank can it become infected? <Mmm, always going to be a possibility... With any challenge, introduction...> My fish are very active in the small tank (Thanks for the 5% twice a week water change what a difference WOW!) and don't rub against the rock or show signs of ich. I am not sure what to do as I don't want to infect my big tank. Can you help? <Mmm, please read here: http://wetwebmedia.com/parasittkfaq2.htm and the linked files above> Sorry about the spelling of my first e-mail. Brian Macdonald <Be chatting, reading. BobF>

Garlic, Cryptocaryon -07/18/08 <Mmm, am given to suggest... with your many and excellent responses... to change the acronym of the site to WWN... WetWebNeale! Heeeeeee!>> Hi Bob, Kind of you to say so. But it's honestly a pleasure. Anyway, how/why would garlic kill whitespot parasites? <Mmm, don't know. Perhaps if you throw the cloves very accurately...?> Does your correspondent on today's FAQ usage of garlic stem from some discussion in the "marine world" I'm not familiar with? <Allium sativum does have some "proven" benefits... even medicinally...> I don't spend that much time on Reef Central! Is this another pseudo-cure after the fashion of Melafix? <About the same... a nostrum of limited value/use... maybe properly regarded as an ameliorative to other real remedies> Cheers, Neale <And you, BobF>

Re: Marine Ich... cures? 7/19/08 Hi Bob <Brian> Thank you for the quick response I do appreciate it. <Certainly welcome> As you can tell I am a beginner (8 months) of marine tanks, and thanks to your website have learned so much valuable information which has helped me keep my 40 gallon tank healthy (except for the ich) & haven't lost a fish yet, so thanks again & I will be making a donation to your website as a thank you! Brian Macdonald <Thank you my friend. BobF>

Ich problem resurfacing... reading re Crypt - 7/1/08 Hi Crew ! <Abhi> First of all thanks a zillion for such a marvelous site. Have a 145 gallon tank , can't say its a fowler / reef , as it has three anemones , three starfish, two Featherdusters but no corals at all. Had a problem with ich in Jan this year, so i had run the display tank fallow for 2 months with hyposalinity at 1.19 SG. The tank has a sand bed of variable thickness at different places ranging from 3-6 inches, also approx 300 lbs of live rock. I had also treated the tank with copper <Err... an error> (Cuprazin from Waterlife) During that period, also the fishes in the quarantine period, still had lost my Emperor and Blue ring angels, an 8 inch Mata tang. The tank had been running fine since then from March till mid of this month, when the ich resurfaced. <Is resident... won't go here> Had done a mistake last month of buying a fish without checking the details first, was told its a red reef wrasse , but when i searched later on the site it turned to be Lyretail Grouper. This one did produce some aggression in tank which was not there earlier due to which i lost my majestic angel and a Clarkii clown. Have returned the grouper now. Current tank mates : 1. Lavender Tang 5-6 inch 2. Fox Face 5-6 inch 3. Bird Wrasse 5-6 inch 4. Clarkii clown 2-3 inch 5. Lion fish ( Volitans) 4 inch 6. Webbed Lion fish 4 inch 7. Thick lipped wrasse 3-4 inch ( will be removed soon) 8. Moorish Idol 3-4 inch ( 3 days old in the tank ) 9. Orange tail File fish 3 inch 10. Odonus Trigger 3 inch ( 1 day old in tank, got as a replacement for the grouper ) 11. Powder Brown Sturgeon 3.5 inch I feed the fishes a mixture of Hikari marine megabite red and green , NLS Thera +A , Sera granumarin, O.S.I shrimp pellets, HBH veggie flakes, Tetra Doro Marin granules, bloodworms, pearl shrimps. this mixture is fed twice a day. Supplemented with Spinach, coriander , lettuce. <I'd delete the terrestrial greens... Do nothing for the livestock nutritionally... Look into marine algae...> Twice a week frozen prawns and Julian Sprung's sea weed is fed. Since last two weeks i see itch on the Lavender Tang in the mornings and a little bit on the Powder brown. <Most typical> No other fish shows the signs as of yet and there is no scratching from any of the fishes. SG is at 1.02 as of now. Should i wait and see the itch grow or diminish, or should i medicate the tank? <... no sense adding "medicine" to the display tank... the calcareous material will preclude there being a continuous/physiological dose present... by absorption> Catching the fish now would mean removing the whole live rock , which stress the other fishes also. <This is what needs to be done> I know a few of these fishes will outgrow this tank, but i have a plan of upgrading to something like a 500 Gallon in a year or two. Will garlic do any good , coz on the site and other places there are various views about that. <Not enough> Should there be any change in the food coz the Tang, Fox Face and the Powder Brown , all three do not pick on any sort of algae in the tank. which does surface from time to time in the tank and i specially also grow that for them only. Tank has a nice red coralline algae with a bit or purple shades coming in now. Should i Alter the fish combination or could this setup run like this for a year + ? Thanks a lot in advance, you guys are the best ! Abhi. -- Adios Amigos <... read here: http://wetwebmedia.com/mardisindex.htm Scroll down to Crypt... Bob Fenner>

Para Guard Contamination 6/23/08 Hi crew, <Hello Rick! Benjamin here today.> Presently running a 90 gallon system with 110 lbs of live rock, ocellaris clown, Scopas tang, royal Gramma, green chromis, dragon goby and Foxface. Refugium/sump with healthy Chaetomorpha. Present parameters as follows: PH 8.4, SG 1.024, Nitrate 5, Ammonia and nitrite non-detectible. <Good> RedOx hovers between 295 and 310. Aqua C skimmer with ozone injection through a the John Guest fitting. For 10 months after set-up, the system was thriving (RedOx closer to 360) ... elegance coral, pulsing xenia, devil's hand and finger coral all thriving. 6 hermits, turbo snails, feather dusters, worms, shrimp, etc., etc. But then ... For some absolutely unknown reason, I treated my main tank with Para Guard (synergistic blend of aldehydes, malachite green and fish protective polymers - as advertised as basically reef-safe) <definitely not the case> for early signs of ick - if you can believe it just a couple "dots" on the Scopas which a couple new neon gobies and "Selcon" soaked food seemed to help take care of - no "scratching, dots, etc." in last couple months (I know, this has been an expensive lesson - I'm still shaking my head?). <Ouch. I would never recommend 'proactive' medication, as the repercussions/stress of the meds may actually stress the fish enough to cause an infection. Although if you suspected the tang of possessing WMDs, I guess that's good enough reason for Congress to take the preemptive route...> Invertebrates are now gone, live rock looks dead - small amounts of diatoms on live rock now present but not infested. <Malachite green, formalin will do that.> I've never missed a 5 gallon weekly water change. Fish continue to do very well - eat well and appear happy. <Well, glad they didn't suffer for it. Sometimes these formaldehyde and malachite medications can really mess them up too- keep in mind that malachite green is a heavy carcinogen and vertebrate poison, as well as the fact that formaldehyde at relatively low concentrations will embalm a specimen almost indefinitely (when Twinkies, etc are unavailable)> I added a 2 hermits and a turbo snail 5 days ago, but they slowly deteriorated from the get-go. <Bad sign.> Finally my questions - assuming the medication (poison) has regrettably gotten me to this point, I've been using activated carbon (weekly changes) over the past month in an attempt to "pull the medication" out of the system, but the recent snail/crab incident tells me I've still got problems. 1) How/what can I "test" to determine if my system is invertebrate "safe" <The bad news is, you can't really. Your rock and sand will be slowly leaching the poison back into the water (mostly the malachite, a dye) for a very, very long time. I'm the sort who would probably wait decades, or just never try, but if you feel okay about a canary in the mine shaft a few snails or crabs in another month or two would be a decent check. Bear in mind you will be able to keep hardy inverts (arthropods, etc) long before cnidarians.> 2) Assuming I get to a point where my system is invertebrate safe, by adding some additional "live rock", will this "reseed" the deserted rock I presently have. <With time, yes. The eventual purchase of some top-grade rock from a LR specialist would help restore macrofauna, but even standard LFS stuff ought restore your bacteria and crustacean populations, diversity.> Greatly appreciate the help ... and fell free to give me a good boot in the but for my knee-jerk stupidity. <I suspect you've booted yourself enough- this is a mistake a lot of us have made, don't feel too rough on yourself. Tolstoy wrote that "What matters is life, life alone, the continuous and infinite process of discovering it, not the discovery itself." Continue discovering, learning, enjoying.> Rick in Edmonton. <Benjamin>

Please visit our Sponsors