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cycling; FW 4/29/19 First pre-owned tank - what to do with filter media - tank drained 2
days ago - 02/04/19 First pre-owned tank - what to do with filter media - tank drained 2 days ago /Neale 2/5/19 Hi WWM Crew, We have decided to upgrade our tank again so that we can have lots more fishes :) <Understood!> Hubby suggested we swap the TV and tank so we get a 7' wall to play with. After reading conflicting reports about the rounded corner larger Boyu aquariums (liable to crack, hood filter is underpowered and hard to clean) we decided to go with a 72"x24"x30" custom-built tank, starting cost of £1000 + 200 mile delivery costs + heater, filter, lights as extras. <Yikes! Quite an investment.> Yesterday just before purchasing one of these I stumbled across a private advert posted yesterday, for the same tank dimensions complete with filter, heater and lights, only 2 miles away. We responded, went to see it, and it seems in good condition (although unknown age - seller is not first owner). It stands on a metal frame rather than a cabinet (easily solved with IKEA doors?) but at only £300 for everything it seemed a steal. <Agreed.> Current owners are moving house next month and have moved the inhabitants (a shoal of red-tailed catfish) into a pond in the office. The tank was drained 2 days ago, but the substrate and 2 external filters were left covered with tank water (probably thought this would keep bacteria alive). <Might; but probably not in a working, active state. Assume the media will mature relatively quickly, thanks to the encysted bacteria, but probably not "live" as such.> After not being able to muster enough hands to move the tank today we cannot move the tank until next at least next weekend, maybe 2 weeks, but have brought all the accessories home (some of the water was emptied from the filters at this point to help lift into car). <Good.> So I am assuming the bacteria in the filters are already dead as they were starved of oxygen 2 days ago. <Bacteria don't necessarily die under these conditions, but go dormant. They will come back to life, somewhat, in a few days. As I say above, it'll likely cycle faster than it would from scratch, but won't be instant, so do allow some time to gently build up the bacteria population.> The media ( 2 sponges, ceramic rings, and plastic spheres in each) look in good condition so I don't really want to throw them. <Indeed not.> My main question is - is my best option to take everything out of the water, rinse until clear in tap water and then dry until ready to be used again, or should I soak them in a light bleach solution to get rid of any nasty anaerobic bacteria/mould spores/pathogens that may have been in the previous setup before rinsing with tap water? <Thorough rinsing under the tap would remove any organic muck. No need for sterilising though.> Before starting the pre-owned tank I would want to put the pre-owned filter material in my Juwel to encourage some bacteria to grow on it, but don't want to risk the health of my fish and bacteria colony. <Very unlikely pathogens will survive being neglected this long and without fish hosts to live upon.> I would put as much of the pre-owned media as possible inside my internal filter, and place the rest inside a mesh bag in the tank. <A good option.> Of course at the time of a pwc I could let the pre-owned filter material sit in the dechlorinating water to ensure it is free of chlorine residue before putting it into my Juwel. <Indeed.> When we get the tank my plans are to clean the tank and the accessories thoroughly with dilute bleach, rinse, dry off, then wipe away any residue when completely dry. Next day setup the substrate ready for planting, add the new tank accessories, add some water then plant the new plants, add the old plants from current tank (after a short leaf-dipping in bleach solution (+rinse) to try and kill some of the algae), then fill with water from the garden hose to keep the plants alive and allow whatever to leach out of the substrate. I would get the heaters on asap (ground water currently close to freezing), maybe add a few kettles of hot to help along, and the dechlorinator. <I think using bleach at all is overkill; would dump irredeemable plants, prune back ones with the odd bad leaf; install plenty of new fast-growing plants (floating Indian Fern ideal, but Hygrophila, Vallisneria, etc do the job well) to minimise algae growth while the specimen plants get established.> When the tank is up to temperature I would set up one of the filters using the media that has been in the Juwel tank's filter, and maybe a large sponge from the Juwel, then refill the Juwel's filter with more of the pre-owned media that was in the mesh bag. Every couple of days I would take the move the pre-owned filter media out of the Juwel and add it to the external filter and refill the Juwel internal filter with the stuff in the mesh bag, until the new external filter is full, then I will put my sponges back in the Juwel. <All sounds fine.> In the new tank I would let the water settle and become less cloudy and would then move the substrate from my original tank across to the new tank. The current top layer would get put in some water with algae killer for an hour or so, then get rinsed with dechlorinated-water before being added to the new tank. I would start testing the water in the new tank for ammonia being leached from the new substrate. If levels are low I would 'feed' the new tank with the left-over food I was given to help with cycling and keeping the bacteria alive. <A good approach. In honesty, a tank this side would handle a school of small fish, like Danios or Limia, without any real problems even from scratch. The sheer volume of water will dilute ammonia, and alongside regular water changes, such hardy species should sail through.> I know I should drain the old tank to help with fishing out my babies, but I am thinking it would be less of a bioload shock to move them a few at a time over a couple of days. <Agree 100%, but remember truly schooling species, such as Neons or Corydoras, won't be happy moved across in ones and twos, so move them as groups.> So, I perhaps start with the peaceful platies, maybe the babies, then a few days later a few more, then move onto the guppies, then the Danios...? <Sure.> The remaining decorations in the Juwel could stay until I drain the tank to give the fish hiding spots. I would move the Juwel filter and media into the new tank, then drain the water, catch the remaining fish, then add algae killer into the tank to clean the remaining decorations before moving them across to the new tank (again after rinsing in dechlorinated water). <All sounds good too.> This is my first pre-owned tank. I'm thinking slow and steady wins the race as 1. I don't know the history of the tank I am purchasing, so want to be careful to ensure it is clean; 2. my Juwel is plagued with hair algae - I am not sure if it comes from the water supply, or came in with a plant or bogwood years ago. <If at all possible, test the tank for leaks immediately after you get it home. Ideally, outdoors or in the garage, so that if it does leak, you don't ruin the carpet. Glass tanks are pretty robust, but twisting is the big killer, pulling the silicone away from the glass, and it's that which'll cause a sneaky leak, rather than obvious cracks or bumps, which most folk manage to avoid.> I now know better, hence why I want to bleach-dip the plants before moving across, and kill the algae on all the décor. <If you want to. Hot water and a good scrub probably just as good, since the algae can/will return if conditions suit: their spores are in the air and water, and they get into the tank no matter what.> This is also why I don't want to move the tank water across. If it comes back I'll know it's in the water supply and there's nothing I can do to eradicate it, only control it. Sorry this is so long. Do you think all of the above is sensible - is there anything that is unnecessary or something important I have missed? Thanks for your help, you guys are awesome! Nicki <Good luck, and hope this helps! Neale.> Re: First pre-owned tank - what to do with filter media - tank 2/5/19 drained 2 days ago Thanks for all the suggestions Neale, much appreciated! <Most welcome.> Don't know why I've never thought of using fast growing plants to out compete algae, maybe this is why we didn't have problems with the Fluval Edge 23 l... The elodea went rampant and other plants were happy, but most other plants died off when put into the Juwel 180 l. <Quite so; the badness of the algae is usually proportional to the unhappiness of the plants. When plants grow fast, algae generally doesn't. There are some biology reasons for that we don't need to worry about here.> Do you think that planting the back 6" wall with elodea will be helpful in combating the hair algae? I don't care about the short algae it's a snack for the platys but they don't touch the hair algae and it traps fish. <Indeed. Hair Algae tends to be a pest in tanks with sluggish plant growth and indifferent lighting levels. Rather than writing out my thoughts, I'm going to direct you to an earlier scribbling on the topic: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ca/volume_6/volume_6_3/fwalgae.html Should cover the basics!> On another note... Any idea why female fish get aggressive in their old age? Currently my 6 year old female Danio choprai is a menace. <My Danio choprae were as well, to the degree I ended up with just a single male from a group of six. My feeling here is that Danios (or schooling fish generally) become aggressive as the size of the group declines, rather than it being an age thing. So if you have just a few Danios left, aggression will become more noticeable than when you had lots of them. Remember, schooling fish *are* aggressive, and within the group there's background level of bullying that maintains the social hierarchy. In a big group, no one fish deals out, or receives, too much aggro, so the fish are all, broadly, happy. But as the fish age, and some of them die, you end up concentrating this bad behaviour on smaller numbers of fish, and the result can be unpleasant. Some schooling fish become frustrated, too. These will attack dissimilar fish for want of anything else.> The 6 year old male is fine. Until a few months ago both Danios were peaceful, swam around the base of objects and occasionally spawned. She now seems to set up large territories at the surface and charges at anything that swims into it (seeing fin damage on the light coloured platys who she seems to chase off more than the dark colours). Last time i saw this was 6 years ago when an elderly female Variatus play started beating up the other 3 platys (maculatus). I got her more tank mates (more platys and mixed school of Danio) and she calmed down until her death. Likewise I got more Danio choprae a few months ago. The male schools with them often, she only occasionally joins in, but they've all been schooling a lot all weekend (along with one guppy). Yesterday she allowed a small male to court her.... Then tonight she has claimed half the surface (cleaned the tank Saturday and removed a lot of algae at the surface). <More than likely adding substantially more Danio choprae should fix the problem. Cheers, Neale.> I need to understand Biofilm
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with live substrate 2/10/12 Hi Crew. FW, cycling,
rdg. 2/20/12 Tank set-up and fish advice.
2/7/12 <G'day!> Found your site shortly after I got my fish set up on their tank and thought I might seek advice on a couple of matters. I have a 36L tank (about 9.5gal) <Small...> with a beta, Bristlenose Pleco (2.5cm), black balloon molly, golden swordtail and red wagtail platy. <'¦ and much overstocked, mis-stocked. http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ca/volume_5/volume_5_3/stocking.htm http://www.wetwebmedia.com/FWSubWebIndex/fwlivestk.htm > I 'think' they're all male, I stupidly forgot to keep track of what genders I was buying. Using fake plants; one leafy plant provides a low dark hiding area and a couple of others. Gravel substrate. 100W lamp set to 25 degrees Celsius and a filter that pumps a max of 350L/hour. I have a pH testing kit and it's hovering around 7.5 with daily testing and adjustment at the moment. I'm feeding them fish flakes and algae wafers. Flakes twice a day and algae wafer once a day. I've had this setup since Wednesday and my fish 'seem' to be doing mostly fine. <For now. How did you cycle the filter beforehand? http://www.wetwebmedia.com/fwsubwebindex/fwset-up.htm For the first few days ammonia levels won't be much above zero and the fish will look fine. But a week in and ammonia will rocket, and a week later nitrite; both of these are lethal to your fish.> My bristle nose appeared to lose a bit of colour, and a nearby fish shop suggested I do a partial water change every 3 days for a while. <And the rest! If the filter wasn't matured for 4-6 weeks before adding the fish, you will need to do 25% water changes every 1-2 days. Trust me on this. Things may look fine, but that means nothing. If you don't do this, your fish will sooner or later start gasping and looking lethargic, and not long after you'll find your first sick or dead fish.> My platy is currently spending most of his time hiding under the leafy plant and chasing away the swordtail when it comes near. Ignores the other fish. From reading some of the FAQ's I'm running under the assumption that these could be stress and environmental issues. I don't have an ammonia testing kit (cost is rapidly becoming an issue). <Get a nitrite (with an "i", not nitrate with an "a") test kit. It's the one kit you MUST have. All the others are optional extras, provided you know your water chemistry -- i.e., if you have soft water or hard water.> I ran the filter in the tank for a few days before getting the fish, but didn't really understand why so probably didn't do anything and I'm assuming I don't have a good bacterial colony to break down the ammonia, so I'm trying to feed them less and performing the water changes. Using a gravel-vac for the water change. I don't think there's any specific illness as there haven't been any other symptoms I've noticed. So is this a reasonable diagnosis? <Yes.> Anything else you would suggest I do to make my fish more comfortable? <See above; read.> Also, I'm wondering if it's a good idea to get any more fish. Under the "2cm of fish for 1L", <No!!!! Far too many fish. The old "inch per gallon rule" works out at about 2.5 cm per 4 litres. But this rule assumes [a] you're keeping small fish and [b] your aquarium is big enough for them in other ways too. Let's take an extreme example of a Great White Shark measuring 4 m, or 400 cm. If you allowed 2 cm for every 1 litre, that's be 200 litres for that fish. Obviously stupid. So, any of these rules is only as useful as the thought the fishkeeper applies when using them. For a 10 gallon tank, your fish are almost all the wrong size and temperament, needing more space -- Swordtails are fast-moving fish that need a tank more than 80 cm long, and Mollies are so aggressive and can get so big that anything less than 100 litres makes no sense at all. Even Platies, though somewhat smaller and less active, need more than 36 litres.> if all these fish get to full size, then I'll fill half my quota. I'm thinking a small school of some kind of tetra, or one or two larger blue fish (blue to bring a little more colour to the tank). Or I may get some of the same species for company if my fish need it. So any advice on that subject would be welcome. <For 36 litres, a school of 8-10 Neons and 6 "pygmy" Corydoras (such as Corydoras hastatus) would be about right, perhaps with a few Red Cherry Shrimp for colour.> Cheers Olias <And likewise, cheers, Neale.> Re: Tank set-up and fish advice. 2/9/12 G'day again. Thanks for your comments. It can always be hard to hear how bad your doing even if you already know it. But I appreciate because it's not my own comfort I'm looking out for here. <Real good.> The water had previously been cycled for 5 days with everything but the fish in place. <It'll take at least 3, 4 weeks for the biological filter to mature -- assuming you're adding a source of ammonia. If all you're doing is running the filter with no ammonia source, then nothing will happen. It's just getting wet! The easiest way to cycle the tank is to add a small pinch of flake food daily. It'll rot and produce ammonia. Use your ammonia test kit; the ammonia level should rise to 1, 2 mg/l, maybe a little higher. But it'll eventually drop down to zero, at which point the filter is halfway to be mature. Keep doing the daily flake feedings another 2 weeks, and the second half of the process (nitrite to nitrate) should be done.> I've already done a couple of water changes already but I'll bump up how often I do it. I also notice it's difficult to get around the plants and decor with the gravel-vac. Would it be a bad idea to remove the decor before starting a water change and replace them afterward? <Makes no real difference. Keep the tank clean and remove uneaten food (once fish are installed) and any other organic crud but don't worry too much about cleaning the tank completely every week.> As to the mis-stocking, ignoring for a moment the tank size, would it have been better if only one of the swordtail, balloon molly, and platy were male and the other 2 female? (I'm beating myself over the head for not checking what genders I was picking up.) Or is it generally bad to keep all those live bearers in the same tank? I see now the molly was a poor beginner choice. <None of these species belongs in a 30-40 litre tank. Do read the articles linked last time.> I may have gotten the numbers mixed up and it should've been 1cm/2L which is closed to the inch/gal. I'll see about getting a nitrite testing kit as soon as I can. In the longer term I'll also see about acquiring a larger tank. Thanks again for clarification. Olias <Glad to help, Neale.> Re: Tank cycling, FW 10/3/11 Seeding a canister
filter. 9/29/11 ammonia, nitrates aren't rising - FW
cycling 9/11/11 troubles with my new tank... Learning
to read, use WWM, the world 6/28/11 Some clarification advice needed on fishless tank
cycling, please and thank you. 1/2/11 Procedure to Replace Filter - Preserve Bacteria
5/8/10 Re: Sick Dwarf Gourami - 03/28/10 Re: African clawed frogs... Nitrogen Cycle & Carbon Filter clarification
1/6/2010 FAST! Cycling, umm, of what? FW and cleaning
tk.s -- 12/09/09 Re: Neolamprologus splendens breeding ? (Now: cloning
filters) 11/13/09 Re: Neolamprologus splendens breeding ? (Now: cloning
filters) 11/13/09 Fixing an error... Env. dis.... cycling with fishes,
FW. Betta 9/1/2009 Re: fixing an error 9/1/2009 My two tanks... FW... cycling...
8/13/09 Fishless Cycling Question 6/18/09 Establishing an optimum bacterial population --
4/17/09 Re: Establishing an optimum bacterial
population 4/18/09 Great website! I wish I had found it earlier. <Thanks!> I made the mistake of buying a goldfish for a fancy bowl I found. After 3 days of torture, I rushed out and bought an eclipse hex 5 gal. tank. I now know, I should have purchased a larger tank but honestly this is the largest I have room for. He lasted 8 days. <Par for the course, I'm afraid. Goldfish need big tanks; they are, after all, pond fish that easily reach 20 cm/8 inches in length and commonly 50% more than that. So unless you have a 20 gallon tank to start with, and are prepared to get at 30 gallon tank at some point, I'd skip Goldfish.> After extensive reading on your site and others, I am starting over. I want to do fishless cycling using fish food flakes. <Fine. A bit messy, but this works! Add a tiny pinch of flake every day, just as if there was a fish there. The food will rot, and thereby release ammonia. After about three weeks, your aquarium should be good to go; use a nitrite test kit to check: for the first couple days you'll detect zero nitrite, and then nitrite will go up, then a week or so later come down, and eventually settle at zero again. Since nitrite is deadly to fish, we don't add them until you're detecting zero nitrite again.> I added stress coat water conditioner per directions and now I'm thinking I should not have, since it removes ammonia. <It removes ammonia *from the tap water*. It does nothing at all against ammonia *produced* in the aquarium by fish, bacteria or whatever.> Should I dump this and use tap water? <No. You should indeed add dechlorinator any time you add water to the aquarium. Period.> Also, I was thinking of getting a beta, but since the tank is taller then wide and betas are top dwellers <It's a Betta by the way. (I think Americans call them Betas because of the way they pronounce Betta, which is actually Bettah in Malay or whatever, and sounds like "Better".) Anyway, a Betta is a good choice for this tank.> I was thinking I could get 5 White Cloud Mountain minnows? <Nope. This tank will be too small for them. Do see here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ca/volume_5/volume_5_3/stocking.htm There's also the risk they'll nip the Betta.> Any comments would be appreciated. Thanks, Cindy <Cheers, Neale.> Re: organically cycled aquarium Re: organically cycled aquarium
4-16-09 Re: Organically cycled aquarium Re: organically cycled aquarium
04/23/09 Re: organically cycled
aquarium 5/15/09 Re: Organically cycled aquarium 05/27/09 Re: organically cycled aquarium
06/04/09 Setting Up a New Tank with Old Filter Media 1/25/09 Hi, I'm new to this site and I really do love it. < Thanks for the kind words.> It is so addicting to explore it. However, I do have a question that I hope was not answered before. 1) I just set up a new tank and it is being cycled. How long will it take for the tank to start fogging up? < The fogging you are asking about is the ammonia developing in the tank. This depends on how many fish are in the tank, how much food, water temp etc....I would recommend getting some water quality test kits for ammonia, nitrite and nitrate to get a handle on what is going on and rely less on the "fogging" factor. The ammonia and nitrites should be zero. If you see any readings then you may need a bacterial additive like Dr. Tim's One and Only. The nitrates can go up to 20 ppm or higher depending on the fish you have selected. You may already be ok with the old filter media and the tank may not fog up.> I bought a 45 gallon square tank at a reasonable price. I also added filter media from another established tank to help speed up the process. It has been set up for about 3 days now. 2) What do you recommend I put in there? My tap water is soft and very acidic. I believe it is 6.2-6.5. I have kept fishes before and I decided to give it another try. Thanks. < You have pretty good water for just about anything. Try South American or West African fish that naturally come from waters similar to yours. Rift lake cichlids require hard alkaline water. The addition of buffers and salts can bring the water up to levels required by these fish. I would caution you on testing the alkalinity of your water. Very soft water may not have any buffering capacity and can become very acidic and "crash". Start out by researching fish you like for environmental compatibility, adult size and temperament.-Chuck> Re: cycle and fish Setting Up a New tank With Old Filter Media II 1/25/09 Thanks so much for your advice(Chuck and Neale) I accidentally sent the message twice and got two replies. When cycling the tank, does the tank need an ammonia fog and does an ammonia fog always occur when cycling the tank? <The bacteria from the established tank filter media may already have the bacteria needed to transform the ammonia to nitrite and then to nitrate. Get the nitrate test kit to find out.> This is because I have not experienced one yet. Also, will live plants speed up the nitrogen cycle, slow down the nitrogen cycle, or not have any affect? Thanks so much. < Live plants utilize nitrogenous wastes in all forms. The will use ammonia, nitrite and nitrate under sufficient lighting. This leaves less nitrogenous wastes available for the bacteria to develop. It probably slows it down but not by much.-Chuck Second tank- cycle and stocking questions, 10 gal. FW 12/26/08 Hi, crew! Happy Holidays! <And a festive hello to you, too.> I'm working on plans to set my 10 gallon freshwater aquarium back up and I'm looking for a few quick answers or thoughts. First, my other tank is slightly brackish (for livebearers). What is the best way to acclimate used filter media from that tank for the new tank? <Invariably, the best approach is to "clone" the filter. All filters can lose up to 50% of their biological media without water quality drops. Indeed, many filter manufacturers suggest you replace this much biological filter media every few months to compensate for the fact biological media becomes clogged with silt over time, and however well you rinse it, it never really gets clean, and so doesn't work as well as it did when fresh. So, if you transplant 50% of the biological media from a mature filter to a new filter, you can instantly mature the new filter, assuming the water chemistry and temperature differences are minimal.> Also, I'm struggling to actually choose what I want for livestock. So many choices! <Actually, not that many choices for a 10 gallon system. Things like male Guppies for example shouldn't be kept in tanks this small because of their tendency to be bullying towards one another and aggressive towards the females (being a female Guppy in a 10 gallon tank alongside some male Guppies has got to be a form of torture!). Platies and Swordtails, medium to large Corydoras, most Barbs, most tetras and virtually all cichlids and gouramis would be far too large for a 10 gallon tank. Danios are far too hyperactive for a 10 gallon system. Yes, you could "fit" them in, but no, they wouldn't be happy, and sometimes frustrated Danios become nippy and bullying. When it comes to stocking 10 gallon tanks, the key things are that the fish are small (ideally sub-5 cm in length) and relatively inactive. Good choices including Kuhli loaches, Neons, Cardinals, small gobies such as Peacock Gudgeon, and the "dwarf" Corydoras such as Corydoras hastatus. Do see here for some thoughts: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ca/volume_5/volume_5_3/stocking.htm I also have a "freshwater reef tank" in a 30 litre system that might be interesting to you: http://homepage.mac.com/nmonks/Projects/freshwaterreef.html The idea is that invertebrates, rather than fish, become the focus.> The only solid plans are low tech, pretty heavily planted with some slate caves. I think I'd like cherry shrimp but only if I can have a few fish too. <Choose the fish carefully; things like Neons, Whiptail cats, Aspidoras catfish, and small gobies and halfbeaks appear to be fine with my Cherry Shrimps.> I'm okay with fish eating the baby shrimp as the local stores don't like to take extras of stock they don't normally carry. I'll have to order the shrimp via internet if I want them. I just want the adults to be safe. Could I have cherry or gold barbs with the shrimp? <Cherry barbs would be fine in a 10 gallon system and shouldn't do any harm to Cherry Shrimps. "Gold Barb" seems to be a name used for at least three different species. Puntius sachsii and Puntius semifasciolatus would be too large, though Puntius gelius would be okay, with the proviso it (like the Cherry Shrimps) actually prefers subtropical not tropical conditions. Puntius gelius is highly attractive though, and works great in quiet tanks, even though it is a bit delicate.> Or what about a honey Gourami, Betta, or flag fish? <Bettas mix fine with Cherry shrimps, but shouldn't be mixed with anything else except perhaps dwarf Corydoras species and Kuhli loaches. Certainly not with anything barb- or tetra-like for fear of nipping or bullying. Likewise, mixing with other labyrinth fish or dwarf cichlids is usually a disaster. Colisa chuna is a difficult species in some ways, but if you can get quality stock and are able to provide excellent water quality, it is viable in 10 gallons. Florida Flagfish would also be good in a 10 gallon tank, but they're subtropical fish, and need lots and lots of algae to colour up properly. They're often kept poorly, hence few people have seen their naturally stunning colours. In a coolish system with Cherry Shrimps and perhaps White Cloud Mountain minnows, they'd be great.> If these aren't good choices, could you give me some ideas? I have to drive an hour to get to a store with decent plants anyway, I can check what that better store has available and do research before a return trip for the fish. My tap water is pH 7.5 and somewhat hard. No livebearers please, I have plenty. :) <Most tropical fish will be fine in moderately hard, basic water. Do always remember: in freshwater fishkeeping, the precise pH doesn't matter, pH stability does; so focus on understanding your local water hardness.> Also, what should I add first, shrimp or fish? Should I get the shrimp first so they can find all the hiding places? <Makes no odds really, but I prefer to add the shrimps and let them settle in for a few weeks. They keep the filter healthy without disturbing the plants, and also help to control initial algae blooms. Once I'm comfortable the filter is working 100% and the shrimps have adjusted to the tank, then I'd start adding any new fish.> Thanks for any advice! Angela <Cheers, Neale.> New 55-gallon tank. Fish nipping at rocks/plants after eating. 12/5/08 Greetings, <Hello,> I started my freshwater tank with a live cycle exactly 1 week ago. I bought the tank setup from a friend of mine who'd upgraded. When I bought the tank it had been running for about 2 months. However, when I brought it home, we drained all but about 1 inch of water from the tank. The substrate and piece of driftwood were left in the tank from the previous setup. The tank sat idle for about 3 days in this state at my house without the filter running, thereby killing all beneficial bacteria, if I understand correctly. I filled the tank and ran the filter and the heater for nearly 2 weeks before I had the time to add my first fish. <The bacteria may well be fine. So long as they're wet, and there's some oxygen in that water, at least some bacteria will survive.> It is a 55-gallon tank with a Whisper EX-70 filtration system. My substrate consists of rocks about the diameter of a U.S. Quarter. <Your substrate is rather coarse, so don't keep anything that lives on the bottom, especially not species with whiskers that forage for food, such as Corydoras.> I am currently in the process of doing a live cycle on the tank. I have 4 small Red Wag Platys, 3 small Serpae Tetras, and 6 small Green Tiger Barbs. Everyone seems to get along with each other pretty well, as the barbs have plenty of friends to play around with. <Tiger barbs and Serpae tetras are both INFAMOUS fin-nippers, and I wouldn't let them anywhere near something as placid as Platies. Moreover, Serpae tetras have a "gang" mentality, and in groups of less than six specimens will bully one another as well as other fish.> However, I have two issues. First, the largest of the Red Wag Platys seems to spend a lot of time at the surface (gasping for air, it seems), but only after eating. It seems like high ammonia levels to me based off of research. I am planning on taking my water in to get tested on Saturday, so hopefully conditions don't degrade to an unsafe level before then. I am thinking about cutting back on the feedings for a day. <Not sure how you "research" high ammonia levels -- use an ammonia or nitrite test kit, and then you'll know for certain!> Second, it seems as though ALL of the fish like to spend about 5-10 minutes nipping or pecking at the rocks and fake plants in the tank after eating. What are they doing? Is this a problem? <No idea; if the water quality is good, and the fish otherwise healthy, wouldn't worry.> Thanks for your help. I tried to search but couldn't find what I was looking for regarding the second issue. Peter <Cheers, Neale.> Re: Follow up question... wood use, FW...
cycling... 9/29/08 I'm baaaack.. with more questions about cycling my
tank... 9/18/09 Re: I'm baaaack.. with more questions about
cycling my tank... 9/18/09 Re: I'm baaaack.. with more questions about
cycling my tank... 9/18/09 Re: I'm baaaack.. with more questions about
cycling my tank... 9/18/09 Goldfish in Distress, Cycling - 6/9/08 Help! <You called?> I have researched for hours, weeks. I LOVE my goldfish. I understand the nitrogen cycle. I know what needs to happen. <Okay! Sounds good!> I was at the point where my nitrites were starting to go up (and My nitrates were finally on the rise.) <Hmm...so you have an uncycled aquarium with fish in it? This is very, very hard on the fish...though I'm sure you know that from your research> It was time to change my filter cartridge in my Top Fin aquarium and I was concerned that it would disrupt my biological filter since I would be replacing all the filter media at once. <You were rightly concerned...this is the case. I would advise, however, that you ignore manufacturer's time schedules for replacing a filter. Removing the old carbon, rinsing out any severe guck in the floss filter in a cup of old tank water, and replacing the same floss will extend the life of these filters (and your nitrifying bacteria!) by many months. This is especially crucial if you are cycling- by throwing out that filter you undo everything that has been accomplished so far.> So I called the "Top Fin help line" <Uh-oh> with my concerns and they said it would be "fine" to just throw out my old filter and replace it with one of their new filter cartridges. <not fine...not fine.> Within hours, my ammonia levels went to 1.0 and I cannot bring it down with partial water changes. I'll go to 50 to 70 percent next. I'll stay up all night if I have to. <I would recommend that you find your fish another home until your aquarium is cycled. Throwing out the old filter has completely re-started your cycle, and the aquarium is a glass cube of poison right now. Furthermore, cycling will never really occur as long as water changes are removing the ammonia from the water. Please read http://www.wetwebmedia.com/estbiofiltmar.htm re fishless cycling, more useful articles and queries are linked at the top of the page.> Please, how can we stop these people from telling us that it will be OK. <We can't. Ignorance is the fundamental human right...the tyranny of the uninformed, and all> PetSmart is where I bought my fish and they told me it would be OK to put 3 or 4 goldfish in my ten gallon tank! And they said I could add a Pleco! <Not uncommon...again, old industry selling standards. If everyone did aquariums right, unfortunately, many mass retailers would go out of business. I would advise you join some online forums, such as ours here at bb.wetwebmedia.com, buy a few books, and use tools on the web like wetwebmedia.com to do your learning and question-asking, rather than the advise of store clerks who may or may not be aquarists themselves.> Fortunately for my fish, I have researched and found out that they each need 20 to thirty gallons. (And that a Pleco is not a good idea) <Bravo!> I am asking for a new tank for my birthday in July but I need help with my current situation. <Find your fish a temporary home in a safe system, or an additional tank in which you can perform massive water changes, and allow your aquarium to fully cycle before reintroducing your goldfish.> Thank you. <No problem! I hope all goes well for you and your scaled friend! Benjamin> Sincerely, Laurie Dupuis Tank Cycling Question (Guppies) 4/22/08 Hi I've spent a week reading up on keeping guppies before setting up my tank and I just found your site yesterday. I've been reading up on cycling, and I think I understand it all now (or maybe you'll prove me wrong). <OK.> I've got a 40 gallon tank which has been running with the sand, heater/filter/light for a few days and I'm off to the LFS today to buy a large mixture of plants (partly to hide the hideous looking filter!). If I then add a pair of male guppies will the cycle be more 'gentle' than most? <Guppies are an appalling species for cycling tanks; Fancy Guppies at least are flimsy at the extreme. Feeder Guppies are arguably better, but in any case, you should cycle the tank with a fish-less method anyway. Set up the tank, and either use ammonia dosed sufficient to maintain around 0.25-1 mg/l or else just add a portion of flake food every day or two and let it rot. After 3-4 weeks, the tank should have cycled adequately well you can add the first hardy fish.> I'm hoping that 2 small fish in a relatively large, well planted tank won't cause huge levels of ammonia/nitrites. <If you have two tiny fish in a giant tank, the amount of ammonia they produce will only develop filter bacteria adequate for two tiny fish. As soon as you add a big fish, like a Plec or Cichlid, there will suddenly be a new ammonia crisis as the bacteria are totally overwhelmed. So you may as well cycle the tank using ammonia/food at a level where it mimics the foreseen loading in terms of fish.> Thanks for any help, I really appreciate the time you guys put into answering all our questions. Jef <Thanks for the kind words. Cheers, Neale.> Nitrogen Cycling Process and Timing -- 04/1/08 Crew, Thank you for offering such a fantastic service. I believe I have spent a couple dozen hours searching your pages for help and general tips. But I haven't found anything that answers this question regarding timing. With that I would like to raise my concern. As a fairly new hobbyist, I've probably made some mistakes. My current setup is a 10 gallon freshwater tank. The *current* parameters and stock are as listed: Average Temp: Heated to 74-75 (I have 2 therms in there to check) Ammonia: Safe (an indicator, not a test) Hardness: ~200 (GH) ppm Alkalinity: ~200 (KH) ppm pH: 8 (I add TopFin pH Decrease about everyday, but it never goes down according to my test strips) Chlorine and related chemicals: 0 Nitrite: 7 ppm (mg/L) Nitrate: 17 ppm (mg/L) Stock: 2 African Dwarf Frogs (gender unknown), 1 Male Guppy, and 3 Female Guppies Plant life: 1 Anubias (don't know exactly what kind) and 2 Anacharis Substrate: Medium sized gravel (definitely not big enough to be swallowed by any critters I'll keep) Tank Lighting: None (room and natural light) Filter: A generic TopFin 10 gallon hanging filter <Without actual aquarium lights, it's unlikely the plants will grow. Certainly not the Anacharis, so you may as well remove that before it rots. Anubias isn't fussy about lighting, and will do well even with a mere 1-1.5 Watts per gallon.> Here is where I made a couple of mistakes. This setup is only about 3 weeks old (I know, too many too fast). It was up and running for 24 hours after being treated with Prime and Cycle before I added any critters. The first critter was one frog. I keep the lone frog for one week, doing about 3 water tests (with those multi-test strips). The parameters seemed fine. So I bought the 1 male guppy and 2 female guppies (I anticipate them getting pregnant, but don't plan on actually raising the fry. If they become food for their parents, I won't complain. I plan on raising later broods). I also added more Cycle, per instructions, and do 25% water changes once to twice a week. The water tests revealed that everything was still OK. Since everything seemed ok, I bought another African Dwarf Frog another female guppy (also too quickly as I found out). I fed the frogs a mix of frozen bloodworms and frozen brine shrimp (primarily bloodworms) twice a day. And the guppies 2-3 times a day with flake food. I hand feed the frogs and if I notice that the guppies eat some of the frog's food, I will count that as a meal for the guppies and accordingly feed them less that day. Within a couple days of having purchased the guppies the ammonia indicator changed to "Alert" which I expected while the bacteria was still catching up to having 5 new critters in the tank. The Nitrites and Nitrates have also risen (as I also expected). I just figured that it was most likely the tank doing it's own cycling process since I, in my novice-ness, didn't do a good job cycling. The rest of the parameters seemed fine, with no real changes. Well now the ammonia indicator is saying that the ammonia is back down to safe (which I am very pleased about). But the nitrites are still high and the nitrates are rising. <Nitrite always lags a couple of weeks behind ammonia, so if the ammonia is now zero, the nitrite will be declining pretty soon.> I've cut back the feeding. I feed the frogs once a day and the guppies twice a day. I also keep the light off a little more (but am also concerned that the plants might not get enough light). I also have not bought a vacuum yet for my tank, so I imagine the substrate is getting kinda dirty. I've budgeted for a vacuum soon. <Lay off feeding entirely while you have ammonia/nitrite problems. Or at least, feed no oftener than once every 2-3 days. The Guppies at least will eat algae, and Frogs certainly don't need a lot of food.> Here is my question. In a normal cycling process, does the ammonia level drop back to 0 before the nitrites do? <yes.> Is it a domino effect? <No.> I'm concerned that the nitrites will continue to rise, thus increasing my nitrate levels to less-than-friendly levels. Or should I just give the tank a few more days and another water change to see where the parameters stand? I test the water daily and actually record the data collected on an excel spreadsheet. I have graphs that show exactly where the levels are and have been, which then provide me with indications of where the parameters might be heading. This document is available if you would like to see it. <No need. Nothing here is terribly unusual. Patience, water changes, reduced food, constant monitoring will help you get through this phase. I suspect you already know this since you're doing mostly the right things and asking the right questions.> So in sum; will my nitrite levels naturally decrease with time, just like my ammonia levels did? And is there a cost-effective way to reduce nitrate (other than my weekly 25% water changes)? <Nope.> I'm sorry that I'm so new at this, but I have learned a lot and am still learning. Thanks again for the wonderful work you guys accomplish here in helping us. Hope to hear from you soon and keep up the good work. Very Respectfully, Dan <You will need aquarium lights, and a 10 gallon tank is too small for Guppies in the long term, but beyond that, "the light is at the end of the tunnel". Cheers, Neale.>
Fishless Cycle. 3/12/08 Hello Neale, <Hello again!> you might remember that I had the intention of starting a 46-gal tank. Well, that tank is now stocked of plants and currently undergoing a fishless cycle. In particular, the cycle started 20 days ago and I'm now in phase 2 with Nitrite stuck at 2, Ammonia is 0 and Nitrates 10. I have few questions: 1) How long do you think it's going to take for the cycle to finish? <Varies, anything up to 6 weeks. Increasing temperature and oxygenation can help, within the tolerances of your plants of course, as will adding pinches of fish food to give the bacteria something to "eat".> 2) The water turned cloudy and has a green color. Do you think I should do a partial water change or it's better to hold off and wait until the cycle is over? <Do the water change. It is quite common for water to turn cloudy early on in an aquarium's life. Settles down by itself eventually.> I never did a partial water change so far in that tank, but I'm a bit worried that the green water could affect plants growth. <Shouldn't cause any long-term problems; once the plants become established and actively growing, they will suppress the growth of algae across the board: on the glass, in the water, on the leaves.> Thanks for your help, Giuseppe <Good luck! Neale.> Question on mini-cycle after fishless cycle, FW 2/19/08 Hello Crew, <Allison> I started a 30-gallon freshwater aquarium on a fishless cycle and got ammonia and nitrite readings down to zero after about a month. I then purchased six zebra Danios and three Cory catfish. I've had the fish for eight days and am now detecting 1ppm ammonia. <Ah, yes... perhaps a "little too much, too soon" life being placed here> I'm hoping that the fishless cycle did some real good and that this is just a mini cycle. What should be my next move? <Mmm, reading and perhaps the use of BioSpira or such... and cessation of feeding with ammonia this high. Start here: http://wetwebmedia.com/FWSubWebIndex/fwestcycling.htm and the linked files above> Today I changed about 10% of my water using tapwater conditioned with Amquel. I have chloramine in my water so I know I need something that neutralizes both the chlorine and ammonia, but I'm concerned that the Amquel, even though I added it only to the new water, will remove the ammonia in my aquarium and leave my bacteria to starve once I add the conditioned water to the tank. <Mmm, good question/concern... Shouldn't remove all, so much that it causes a loss of nitrification> I've read conflicting things about whether the ammonia left from Amquel can actually be eaten by the bacteria or whether it throws off your biological cycle. I read Bob Fenner's article (http://wetwebmedia.com/FWSubWebIndex/taptrtmnt.htm) on treating tap water but I wish he listed what the "real" dechloraminators and the "pseudo" dechloraminators are. I.e. is Amquel the real thing? <It is indeed... as are all such products that contain PVP (Poly vinyl pyrolidone)...> I also have a product called Stress Coat by Aquarium Pharmaceuticals which says it neutralizes chloramine but I have a feeling this product falls into the pseudo category because of what Bob wrote about coating the fish so the chloramine doesn't attack them, even though it's not neutralized in the water. <This is also a fine product... by API, the other by Kordon...> Summary of my questions: what do I do in this mini-cycle, what is a good ppm to shoot for both ammonia and nitrite to reduce harm to my fish but keep the biological filter growing, and what is the best tap water conditioner for getting rid of chloramines but not disrupting the cycle? Thanks!! Allison <Move the livestock to an established system if possible, cease feeding period if ammonia is near 1.0 ppm., make massive water changes if beyond this... Seek out means to bolster the nitrifying organisms (covered in the citation above)... Bob Fenner>
Fishless-Cycling Unwanted Snails off of Plants (How about some Dwarf Puffers?) 12/18/07 Hello WWM Crew, <Hi Bill, Pufferpunk here> I've just set up a new aquarium (29G) in the last 2 days and am in the process of fishless cycling, using 4-5 drops of additive-free ammonia per day based on recommendations I've gathered from around the web. <4-5 drops won't be nearly sufficient--you need to add enough ammonia to get it to test at 5ppm. Waaaay more than 5 drops! Keep that up daily, until you see nitrite & then half the amount of drops until you see nitrate & the ammonia & nitrate remain 0 at the end of the day. Then do an 80% water change & add fish. Simple! Don't forget to "seed" the tank with some gravel from an established tank.> I love aquarium plants and I plan on being able to support livebearer fry (got my eye on some platy fish and maybe guppies) so I've been acquiring plants like hornwort, java moss, etc. with lots of tiny hiding places on them. Research I've seen on the web leads me to believe that plants will grow and thrive in the presence of fish-toxic ammonia levels, so I've bravely placed them in the tank while it cycles, along with some driftwood. I got them at local fish super-stores and unfortunately, that means pond snails. Brown, football shaped pond snails. There are little juvenile pond snails sliding all over my new plants, hiding in very tiny places of both moss and driftwood! I just dropped them into the cycling water last night. My question is: Will Pond snails survive the ammonia cycle? <Probably not.> Can/Should I cycle the tank with a little extra ammonia to eradicate them en-masse as a convenient side-effect? <You definitely need to add more than you are now, for a successful fishless cycle. That should kill the snails & actually aide in the cycling. I'd try to remove as many as the carcasses you find.> I clearly want to avoid hurting my plants with excess ammonia. There's no charcoal in my tank at the moment but my water is a little under PH 7 which will reduce the ammonia toxicity (to fish!). Temp is usually 74-78 F. <Why the such large fluctuation in temp? You're going to try to keep that steadier, around 78.> I'm having trouble locating data on ammonia toxicity to plants (and ammonia-eating bacteria) and I'm worried about being too clever for my own good because after all ammonia is still a household disinfectant. <Your plants should be fine.> As an alternative, I've thought about using Clown loaches or some Dwarf puffers (among others) for snail removal once the tank finishes cycling but I have no intention of keeping them in my tank permanently and it seems a little selfish to "rent" a fish from a pet store (buying then returning it). <I strongly agree!> If I buy a sick fish, the rest of my tank could get sick too. Also, I'm not sure how effective fish (even the tiny puffers) would be at eliminating snails completely from the middle of a mass of java moss, how long I'd have to keep them in there to wait for remaining snail eggs to hatch and be eaten, etc... <Puffers & loaches are very efficient snail eradicators. Maybe you'll fall in love with the puffers though! They are very easy to breed too. You could keep 5 of them in your 29g but be sure to get 1-2 males & the rest females. Here is how to sex them: http://www.thepufferforum.com/forum/library/puffers-in-focus/sexing-carinotetraodon-travancoricus-the-dwarf-puffer/ just in case...> Last resort: snail killer. I don't like the idea of putting pesticides in my tank *at all* but if there was ever a time to nuke the tank with chemicals, the best time is when there aren't any fish around to get caught in the crossfire. Since I'm already planning on doing a big water change before adding any fish, removing snail killer chemicals would conveniently fit into my plan. <Don't do it!> One final question, slightly related. I have another established tank in addition to the new one. I would like to have a breeding colony of ghost shrimp and the breeding colony of livebearers mentioned above. Should these be in separate tanks or could they both go into the new tank once it's done? Platies seem to like nibbling at rocks, leaves, plastic and I'm worried about them eating all the baby ghosts. <I think the fish would eat the baby shrimp.> Thanks a bunch, Bill PS: Love the site! <Thanks! I know I gave you more info on those puffers than you asked for but I thought you might be interested in breeding something a little more challenging & personable than platies. I could be prejudiced though... ;) ~PP> Re: Fishless-Cycling Unwanted Snails off of Plants (How about some Dwarf Puffers?) 12/29/07 Hey Pufferpunk, <Bill> I started re-reading general plant information and strayed off into the business of livestocking articles, not searching but perusing. There I happened across Bob's 20-minute Alum solution recipe for killing snails on plants. Now I feel like I rushed it by adding the plants at all! Oh well, it went into the favorites list. <Good, keep researching!> Wow, 5ppm ammonia? I squirted some extra in last night and it tested at .5. The snails are barely affected, Grr! If my math is correct, a 29G tank is going to have around... 105,000 ML in it. So if I add two ML's of ammonia (and it's pure) then that should give me around 5 PPM, right? Hmm, will have to run a test on that! <Definitely. You can start in a gallon/liter jug & see how much ammonia it takes to get that to 5ppm.> Keep temperature under control, ok. (I wasn't too concerned yet without fish). <I was more concerned about your future fish.> On the subject of puffers, 3-5 gallons for a one inch fish seems like... kind of a lot of open water. More than I was planning on, anyway. <Puffers are territorial (prefer lots of plants/decor to investigate), messy eaters & high waste producers. They make up for it with personality though!> Perusing that link you sent me quickly, I see that Dwarf puffers are often fin nippers on just about everything, big or small. Any suggestions for compatibility? Do you they usually suffer from an overcrowding issue more than a compatibility issue? <A little of both. Folks have success keeping them with Otocinclus & larger species of shrimp. Stocking your "breeding facility" is totally up to you. Just thought I'd give you my preferences. Don't get me wrong, I also love breeding my mollies too!> Thanks again, Bill Re: Parrotfish (gone, now trying to fix tank) 12/25/07 Hi Jeni, <Shana> <<Unfortunately, it can be a difficult to find product. I'd call around first--save gas $$$>> I found another product that claimed to have "live" bacteria, but as you said it was bunk, I didn't buy it. I will call around and see if I can find some. Is it worth it to order it online considering the delivery time with the holidays and all? <Good call! Your best bet is to try www.drsfostersmith.com. At least you'll know it has been refrigerated correctly. Do daily water changes until it arrives & another large water change, before adding it directly to your filter.> <<You need to know what your ammonia level is too. No need really, to test hardness or Alk>> Ok, I will have to get a tester for that then. I sent my husband to get a test kit and he came home with the strips. I gave you the information that the strips gave me. <Try the Aquarium Pharmaceuticals liquid test kits from the same site.> <<There is never any reason not to do large water changes on your tank, unless it has Old Tank Syndrome, which means there hasn't been a water change done on the tank in a very long time. Since you are dealing with New Tank Syndrome, large water changes are the only thing you can do right now to keep the fish from poisoning themselves with their waste. You must try your best to keep the ammonia & nitrite at 0 (any amount is toxic) & nitrate below 20. I would do 80% daily water changes, until you can return most of those fish. Add Prime to dechlorinate the water, it will detoxify some of the ammonia/nitrite in there. Be sure to try and match the temperature of the water you remove.>> Ok, all of that makes sense to me. Unfortunately I lost my eel this evening. However, since the tank change this evening (80%, close to matching temp, like you said), all of the others are FAR more active and all of them ate well. <Sorry about your eel. :o{ Glad the water change is helping though.> When I drew out the water though, I was surprised to find it far cooler than it had been the day before. I put it in warm, did a 20% change and suddenly it was cold. I thought my heater had gone on the fritz but I burned the F......eathers out of myself when I touched it. I am certain the cooler water temp didn't help anyone, much less my injured eel but am a loss as to why it was cooler than it was when I put it in. <Maybe the heater isn't strong enough for your tank? Be careful changing the temp too quickly, stressing the fish further.> <<Where did the parrot go? The tiger barbs will nip at the long fins of the Betta, guppies & angelfish Common Plecos grow to 18">> I took the parrot back on Saturday (along with the red tail shark they sold me). They wouldn't take the angel or eel back as they weren't a danger to anyone in the tank (according to them) and they would be fine in the tank (according to them). They wouldn't issue a refund or certificate for later purchase for the fish they did allow return on--all they would do is trade, so I ended up bringing more fish back home. <Oh no! The tank still is not cycled. Last thing you needed was more fish. I can't believe they wouldn't have just given you a credit for later. Not the way to do business in a fish store AT ALL!> She assured me over & over that the barbs would be fine with the angel and Betta (and my guppies were in a bag waiting for me at that moment). I kept thinking I had read they were nippers but she repeatedly assured me they were not and so I came home with a couple. They do the weirdest thing though: kind of a do-se-do with each other. They do something that looks like "kissing", then they twirl around with each other, then one pushes the other (they take turns at that). I can't tell if they are fighting, mating or playing. They are oblivious to the rest of the world when they are doing it though. <Schooling fish will chase each other (sometimes to the death), if not in a school of at least 5-6 fish.> I found out that my husband knows the actual owner of the store (he doesn't run it or have much to do with it other than financing it, I guess). I have been dealing with a manager and an employee. So, my husband is going to try to reach the owner tomorrow and work something out with them. If nothing else, maybe we can get them to foster my brood until my tank is up to par for them (this is a very small, local store). <I hope so! I also hope you print out a copy of our correspondence & tell him about the horrid advice his employees are giving out. I can guarantee you they are selling everyone tank fulls of fish for uncycled tanks & killing a LOT of fish.> All options are with the exception of the barbs. Even if I have to give those back at a loss, I will. Hopefully they will trade with me but if not, they still aren't coming back here. I'm ticked that twice now, in 3 days, I have been talked into buying an aggressive fish that will harm my Betta or angel. Those are the 2 primary fish for me, with the Betta being in the lead. I feel so bad for Bettas and they are such beautiful, friendly fish that are loaded with personality--the Betta is the reason and center of the tank. If it doesn't get along with a Betta, it doesn't belong in my tank. Angels are my next favorite as they are so beautiful, calm and laid back. They just cruise and are just a mesmerizing joy to watch. <As long as you only keep one though. If keeping 2 & they try to spawn, they turn into beasts!> Those are my 2 fish, anything else is an additive that I will attach to later. (I am rapidly becoming very fond of my bubble mollies). The guppies are like watching a couple of kids--you just never know what they are going to do, lol. <Bettas & guppies won't work. Bettas don't like competing with other long-finned fish.> The barbs are beauties and they interest me in their activities but they need to go if they are going to be harmful to the others, as I now don't doubt they will be. Now, I have a couple of other questions: I am keeping the Betta. He is not going back, even for fostering. They sell their Bettas in these little 4 oz condiment cups with no air holes in the lid and barely enough water to cover the fish. I don't know if they think these guys are indestructible or what but he isn't going back there. I have a 1 gallon fish bowl that I can keep him in until he can go back into the tank. But my question is: if a Betta can live under the conditions most put them in, then wouldn't he be an ideal "scout" fish for cycling? <Any fish you put into a cycling tank is under extreme stress & danger of permanent damage to it's gills, eyes & skin from ammonia/nitrite burn.> Second, I have been concerned about my Pleco and whether he is eating. As per your site, I put some Nori (about 1/3 of a sheet torn into about 3 pieces and placed around the tank) and a bit of zucchini. I've seen the mollies eating on the Nori and zucchini but not him. Sooooo, I got him some algae wafers and put one in. I haven't seen him touch that yet either. Since the water change he is far more active and is making quite the spectacle of himself halfway up the glass (right in the middle with the light on). <This is not normal behaviour for a Pleco. He sounds stressed. Does he have enough cover? Common Plecos grow to 18", BTW.> Do you think he is eating ok? Will he find the food on his own? <Plecos are nocturnal eaters. Try adding a couple of algae wafers after lights out.> I bought some freeze dried shrimp and replaced the bloodworms with them in tonight's feeding. Everyone cleaned up. (I can't get fresh or frozen locally, so have to go with freeze dried). With so many food options, should he and the rest be ok as long as I can keep the toxin levels in the tank down for a few days until I can get them out? Like I said, the Betta I can put in a bowl. It isn't ideal but I know how to do a Betta bowl and can keep him healthy and semi happy. The rest are at the mercy of the tank. <As long as you continue to do 80% daily water changes, while monitoring the parameters. Try to keep ammonia & nitrite as close to 0 as possible (any amount of either is toxic) & nitrate below 20. If you need to do large water changes more often, go ahead. Just keep using Prime for dechlorinating. Also, I would feed as little as possible. Feeding a lot causes more waste to an uncycled tank that can't break down waste.> Thank you so much for your help. I know I'm being a PITA right now but honestly, I do learn. I have just gotten into a bad situation because I have a hard time telling people they are wrong when I know little about a subject myself. I basically let myself get bullied into my current situation and have no one to blame but myself. <This is quite a learning experience for you then--in more ways than one. :o) Nothing wrong with being a strong woman who stands up for what she thinks is right or wrong & doesn't let people bully her.> We are working on getting the fish out of the tank (I even have a 911 out to all of my friends and family to help me find someone with an established tank that can either take or foster the fish). I am not taking what you tell me lightly or thinking it will all work out ok in the end. I made a terrible mistake and know I need to be aggressive in correcting it. But I do need your help in keeping these fish alive until I can get them some place else. In that light I will sign off with my heartfelt thanks and ultimate gratitude. I've been lucky in that I've only lost one so far, I don't want to add to that number. :) <I can tell that you have quickly developed into a loving, observant fish-keeper. We need more like you in this hobby. Just continue with those water changes until the Bio-Spira comes in & all will be well. Check that site I gave you for test kits & other varieties of foods.> Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays! <Same to you & good luck! ~Jeni> Shana
Establishing Discus tank 9/20/07 <<Hi. Tom here.>> I would like to establish a discus only tank. <<An enviable project!>> A site online mentioned that it is better to intro other compatible fish first to establish a bio load. <<If the site is speaking of using other fish to cycle the tank, I'd be very reluctant to use any other information it provides. That practice had its 'sunset' at least a decade ago and 'fishless' cycling has been around the hobby for much longer than that. Now, in fairness, Discus are very sensitive to water conditions so it could be that the site you're referring to is recommending adding compatible fish AFTER the tank has cycled to try to minimize the impact on the Discus when they're introduced. Rather wishful thinking if this is the case since any additional fish will always affect the bio-load to one degree or another. (I highly doubt this is what they were getting at but I'm feeling generous this afternoon. :) )>> And that the discus should not be introduced for six weeks. <<That would depend totally on the results of water testing. Six weeks may be more than enough time or, it could just as easily be premature. I doubt there's a single member of this Crew who'd suggest a specific time frame without benefit of some specific information about the water conditions. Ideally, you would be testing regularly to monitor the rise and fall of ammonia/nitrites in the tank. When only nitrates are detectable, you're 'golden'.>> Is it possible to obtain the same effect by purchasing bacteria from the LFS? <<Yes, but I'll qualify that by saying that the product needs to be BIO-Spira from Marineland. Many off-the-shelf products are largely ineffective at cycling a tank quickly and some are outright wastes of your money.>> If so, how long should I wait to introduce the fish? <<No longer than 24 hours and better if within 8-10 hours when using BIO-Spira. The Nitrospira bacteria responsible for nitrifying nitrites are quite slow to reproduce -- dismally slow by bacterial standards -- and need a source of nitrites rather quickly to remain viable and propagate. The upside, however, is that the tank is about as 'instantly cycled' with the use of this product as you can reasonably ask for. However you choose to go about cycling your tank, using live fish for this purpose shouldn't even be considered an option. Potentially sacrificing life when there are quick, safe and effective methods to accomplish the same thing would be completely irresponsible and cruel. Now, my 'soapboxing' aside, I wish you the best of luck with your Discus tank. I'm sure you'll enjoy the results! Tom>> Re: establishing Discus tank 7/21/07 Hi again, <<Greetings again.>> At the risk of sounding stupid, I need something clarified. After adding the bottled bacteria, can I introduce discus fish? <<Not a 'stupid' question at all. Yes, you can introduce the Discus after adding the bacteria. My apologies for not being clear on that point. Tom>> New Tank Problems Debating the Next Step... FW... mis-mix, new tank, ammonia... 9/9/07 Hello. I've done quite a bit of research in these last two weeks and have found your site to be the most informative and hopefully helpful. Our situation is probably not an uncommon one, but knowing that doesn't make it any less stressful. Two weeks ago my husband decided to invest major money in a 20 gallon aquarium. Of course since he had kept a few goldfish alive in a small tank years ago, he thought he knew what he was doing. I tried to research, but he didn't give me any time. He bought the tank and set it up on a Saturday night. He wanted to get fish 24 hours later and I tried to convince him to wait but the most he would wait was 48 hours. <Mmmm, hmm> During that time I researched the fish he wanted to get and found out that they were cichlids who would need a larger tank or to be an only child virtually. This did not jive with his idea of a tank full of pretty fish so without consulting me he decided to change to buying what he thought would be smaller more peaceful fish, and he bought 9! Mistake number one over stocked tank. Mistake number two, too many fish introduced at once. Mistake number 3 fish that didn't necessarily go together, <Yikes!> 2 Kissing Gouramis, 2 Tiger Barbs (which I discovered need to be in a larger group to get along well and not stress out each other or others) 2 Silver Dollars, 1 Bala Shark, 1 Albino Rainbow Shark and 1 Silver Tip catfish. <Some mix now! The last fish isn't even freshwater...> We then proceeded to Mistake number 4 overfeeding, he fed them everyday and probably more than he should have. Mistake number 5 was probably the wrong testing kit. Although he wouldn't listen to me and anything I found out on the web, he completely believed the LFS people. They sold him a little testing strip kit, <Notoriously inaccurate, imprecise> and although we read about the nitrogen cycle in the tank info, and knew we had to test for ammonia, since ammonia wasn't listed on the test strip we assumed that the PH and ammonia must be the same thing. Not once did the LFS people mention ammonia or testing for it. <Dismal> For several days the fish seemed okay, and according to the little strip nitrate and nitrite were okay and PH was 6.5. We did do a small water change and added the conditioner again on day 4 and all was fine. Then we began to notice the one Tiger Barb constantly bullying the other to the point of him hiding and shaking. The gouramis also seemed occasionally stressed by this fast aggressive little guy. Finally we started seeing little white spots on the gouramis and dollars and the more aggressive barb started floating funny so we removed him for a day or so and treated him with Melafix, <...> which perked him right up. I researched the spots and discovered it was ICH so we bought copper safe <!> and dosed the tank once but had to remove the filter so that the medication would absorb. During the removal of filter for the first time it ripped. Have you noticed I've stopped counting mistakes at this point. <Yes... and I must commend you... for being so level-headed and such a good recounting> The white spots did seem to fall off the fish but in my reading I knew that we needed to continue to treat the new water we added for up to a month and to raise the temp to 82 to shorten the cycle of the ICH and catch it at it's most vulnerable. Since we were treating the ICH and Mr. Barb seemed better we added him back to tank. The next day though (this is by now day 8) we noticed the water started getting murky. <Cycling...> We weren't sure if it was the treatment we added or no filter to keep things moving or the natural cycling process. We then noticed the fish sitting on the bottom from time to time not moving much. However the apparently ineffectual little strips we had from the pet store kept telling us that the nitrate and nitrite were zero and the PH was in normal 6.5 range. We did a small water change and decided to not add any more CopperSafe just in case that was the problem. <Has to be tested for (copper) to prevent poisoning from overexposure> We also added the filter back but had to replace the pad that had ripped (Mistake Number ???) because there went any good ammonia eating bacteria we might have accumulated. At this point my husband actually started asking me to see if I could find out what was wrong. <Yay!> Apparently research could have a use after all. The fish were starting to gasp, alternating between laying on the bottom and hovering under the surface. With some more research I found from some helpful people that the ammonia was probably our biggest problem. ICH could be worried about later but the ammonia would kill our fish quick. This person finally informed us that the PH and ammonia are NOT the same thing and we needed a separate kit, all of $5.00. We bought this kit the evening of day 11 and found our ammonia was halfway up the chart on 1 By this time our fish were really gasping, even our catfish and Bala were swimming funny when they had seemed the least affected. On this site I found a recommendation to do a huge water change so my husband did that and also siphoned some of the gravel as he had just bought a siphon for the first time as well. That's when he could really see the amount of waste and food that was contributing to our ammonia. He also added AmmoLock to the water as well as the conditioner this time. The fish perked up a little, but within a few hours were listless again. However it was late at night and I was gone out of the house, so he didn't do another check like I would have suggested. When I got home at midnight I thought I would ask him about it in the morning and he would tell me he had done another check, and then I would have him do another water change. However, when I woke up he had gone to play golf. I also discovered one of the fish was missing, which, when he returned from golf he told me was due to a power outage we had in the middle of the night. He things the albino made his way near the filter when it was turned off and somehow got out of the top because he was on the floor this morning. With him gone and no information I did a test myself and found ammonia still at .50, and the fish were gasping, so I did a 30 percent change adding the conditioner and AmmoLock. Two hours later they weren't looking any better. Ammonia still said .50 so I attempted a 50 percent change. Then he came home. I told him that I had done a 50 percent change but he thought I meant that morning, so about 2 hours later, while I was gone, he did a 50 percent change. I think all of this change and the ammonia finally drove the fish over the edge, because within 2 hours of this last change, the 2 dollars, the Bala, the catfish, and one Barb all lost the fight. The 2 gouramis and remaining barb didn't look so well either so he removed them for awhile and decided to do another big water r change, still with the AmmoLock and conditioner, and clean the gravel really well. He then waited and checked the ammonia and it was down to .25. I did finally buy a separate nitrite kit so will test that too instead of believing the zero the little strip test tells me. So now for the questions............. Do we put the 2 gouramis and one barb back (even though they are iffy)? <Mmm, can... I would... along with a fresh pack of a product called BioSpira...> Do we try to continue to cycle with this tank as is if even one fish makes it and then let it go for a good solid 6 weeks before we even think about adding another fish as we should have done originally? <Likely a good routine> If all fish die do we put a new fish in immediately to keep the tank cycling or do we not subject any fish to this crazy toxic tank and clean it our and start fresh? <Perhaps the latter would/will be best for peace of mind> Thank you for reading this novel. This aquarium was not my choice, and if it had been or if I had been able to have any input, I would have thoroughly prepared ahead of time and hopefully sidestepped most of these mistakes. But either way, I can't stand to see a living creature suffering and I really don't want to waste such a huge investment financially and emotionally. Any help is greatly appreciated. Rea <Your husband... and the aquatic livestock in both your care is indeed fortunate to have someone as yourself... Intelligent, curious and caring... to look out for their welfare. Unfortunately by the time you discovered the ammonia issue (to be expected) in this small, crowded, ich-infested, mis-stocked mess... doing water changes to dilute the metabolite also forestalled/forestalls the establishment of cycling... Do please keep reading, culturing that husband... and put together a more sustainable mix going forward. Bob Fenner> Ceramic media, & air pumps FW -- 08/26/07 Hello Neale, I bought the ceramic cylinders yesterday to be used as filter media. I wanted to ask you how should I place them inside the power filter and how many of then I'm supposed to use? Should I also bury some cylinders in the gravel and use them to jump start an eventual new tank? I also wanted to ask you if using an air pump inside the tank is really beneficial or not. As always, thanks a lot for your helpful insights. Giuseppe <Greetings Giuseppe. How you use the ceramic media depends somewhat on the design of your filter. Some filters have "compartments" that you stuff with the media of your choice. If this is the case here, place the ceramic media in the last compartment (i.e., the one that water enters last of all) for best results. This will stop it getting clogged with solid waste quickly, allowing the media to perform as biological media better. If your filter doesn't have compartments, then place the media in a media bag (or something similar, like the "foot" from a pair of stockings) and stuff it somewhat after the mechanical filter media (again, so that it doesn't get clogged too quickly). There's no "wrong" way to use media, just more or less efficient ways, so if this all seems to complicated, just cram the ceramic hoops in wherever you can. The filter should have some instructions explaining this. You likely can't use "too much" or the filter won't go back together. As for burying them in the gravel -- pointless. If you have spare, buy another filter and put them in there. Otherwise, leave them somewhere dry to use at another time. The gravel in a tank without an undergravel filter is basically "dead" as far as biological filtration goes, and the ceramic media won't do anything useful and won't get significantly colonised with bacteria. Better to remove 50% of the media from the filter after a few months, and use those to "seed" a new filter in a new aquarium. You can replace up to 50% of the filter media from a mature filter and not lose too much biological filtration capacity. Obviously you add new media after you do this. This process is called "cloning" a filter, and it's how I set up all my tanks, and totally removes the cycling process. Now, as for air pumps: here's the deal. Air pumps don't put oxygen into the water. That's a myth. What they do is improve circulation. By doing this, de-oxygenated water at the bottom of the tank is brought to the surface, where CO2 diffuses out and oxygen diffuses in. That's really all air pumps do. Obviously, an air pump connected to an airstone at the bottom of the tank will be more useful than the same pump connected to an airstone that's bubbling away at the top of the tank. Do you need an airstone? Generally not. A decent filter should be providing adequate circulation on its own. This wasn't always the case in the past, where air-powered filters were common, but modern electric filters generally offer a lot of circulation. The ideal for regular community fish is 4x the volume of the aquarium in turnover per hour. For goldfish, cichlids, Plecs, etc. this goes up to around 6-8x per hour, and for marines anything from 10x upwards is required. Your filter should have a "gallons per hour" or "litres per hour" quote on it somewhere; compare this to the volume of the aquarium, and draw your own conclusions as to whether you need to add extra circulation. Cheers, Neale> Re: Ceramic media, air pumps 9/5/07 Hello Neale, I checked my q-tank values this morning and I found PH 7.2, Nitrite 0, Nitrates 0 and Ammonia 1. This means that the tank is cycling. How often should I change water and how much water should I change? Also, one of the neons is very tiny and doesn't seem to eat. It chews small pieces of flakes and then spits them. All the other fish eat very well. What do you suggest to do for the small neon? Thanks in advance for your help, Giuseppe <Greetings. Maintain the quarantine tank in exactly the same way as a regular tank, i.e., 25-50% water changes weekly. Obviously don't change the water if you're medicating, at least not unless the instructions say you can. As for the neon, it is normal for them to chew and spit, it's how they process large food items into smaller ones, given they don't have hands! He may well be eating some small bits and spitting out the rest. Regardless, don't stick with one brand of flake. I find having 3-4 different pots of flake food works best. Try and make one pot a vegetarian flake food, such as Spirulina. Alternate between them. Better yet, get some live daphnia or brine shrimp, or use some frozen substitutes. One last thing: flake food loses its "savour" quite quickly. After a couple of months it may be tasteless as far as the fish are concerned. In which case, buying fresh flake might help. Cheers, Neale> Re: Ceramic media, air pumps 9/5/07 Neale, I usually feed the fish by changing the type of food at every meal. I use TetraMin flakes, TetraColor flakes, Spirulina flakes, frozen Tubifex worms, freeze dried krill and freeze dried blood worms. As for the neon, I decided to return it to the store and get a healthier fish because all the other fishes eat very aggressively while this one does not seem to eat at all and it's very skinny. So far, except the weak neon, I'm enjoying the new batch of fish and I'm very happy about the Pristella. Have a great day, Giuseppe <The diet you're offering them all sounds very good. You will continue to enjoy the Pristella tetras -- they're very underrated fish with subtle colours, but lots of character and remarkable hardiness. Good luck, and since it's gone 8 PM here in England, it's more a "good night" than "great day"! Cheers, Neale> Re: New 46 gallon bow front - strong support for fishless cycling method! -- 07/23/07 Hello Jorie, <Hi Robert> Thanks for the advice, I'll try out the fishless cycling. <I'm glad to hear that! There's lots of information to be found on this...try a google search and you'll soon find more information that you know what to do with!> Once that completes I am thinking 4~6 Gourami to start with. <Sure. My advice regarding stocking is to pick out the one species you really want in the tank, then stock the rest accordingly, based on matching environmental conditions, temperament, etc.> By that time my books will have come in and I will have read MUCH more of your website and others. <What books have you ordered? Hopefully a copy of David E. Boruchowitz's "A Simple Guide to Freshwater Aquariums", as well as the Bailey and Burgess "Tropical Fishlopedia" are both on the list. The former is a great starting-up book, and walks you through setting up the tank pre-cycling on (although, if I remember right, he does advocate using fish to cycle with, which we've already discussed:-)>, and the latter is invaluable for diagnosing/treating disease, when the inevitable does happen...> How about this time I send links to the plant pictures? http://www.doryweather.org/~rberry/fish/plants.jpg <Not sure exactly what that is - some sort of Spathophyllum perhaps?> And the happy Betta in his heated and filtered tank with a 2" Pleco hiding in the "cave". http://www.doryweather.org/~rberry/fish/betta_tank.jpg <Ummm, this is not quite what I had pictured when you said heated/filtered tanks, I hate to say. I was thinking along the lines of a 3 gallon aquarium, complete with wet/dry filtration, a 25 watt submersible heater, etc. Honestly, this setup is not conducive to fish; there can't be more than a half gallon of water. A Betta needs a minimum of 2-3 gallons of water, and the Pleco, obviously, much bigger than that. I do realize that the Pleco situation is temporary, but do get going on the cycling process in the 46 gallon ASAP.> So, there is the mystery plant from before. The closest I can come is some species of Green Taro. A bog plant which explains why it likes both above and below water. <You might be correct on this ID...> Thanks for the link, it got me pointed in the right direction. <I'm glad to hear this, and glad to help. Keep on reading, researching; you're on the right track! Best, Jorie> -- Robert Re[2]: New 46 gallon bow front - strong support for fishless cycling method! Plus, unsuitable Betta environment... -- 07/23/07 Hello Jorie, <Hi again,> One of the books I have ordered is "A Simple Guide to Freshwater Aquariums" and the other is about planted aquariums. <Excellent. By any chance did you order the Peter Hiscock "Encyclopedia of Planted Aquaria"? That's a great resource...> Fishless cycling: I am at 1ppm ammonia and 0.5ppm Nitrite, so cycle is proceeding. <Sounds great. Nitrogen cycle should complete anywhere between 2-4 weeks; just keep testing the water parameters. Don't forget to check for nitrates, also...> Betta tank... the picture size is misleading I suppose. The glass is 22 inches tall and 12 inches across. With the rocks in there it takes about 8 gallons of water to fill it. <Better than it looks, I suppose, but still not an ideal setup.> <Regards, Jorie> -- Robert The Nitrogen Cycle isn't Happening 7/13/07 Hello, WWM Crew: <<Hi, Pete. Tom here.>> First of all, you have a great informative site that I have found very useful and entertaining to read through. <<Thanks for this, Pete.>> I have recently got back into the hobby after an absence of a few years, and things have changed a little bit in that time. Anyway, I set up a new 55 gallon long glass tank about a month ago. It came with a HOB filter that filters 150gph (a bit underfiltered for this system). <<Sounds nice, Pete, and I agree that it's underfiltered. If the 'claimed' gph is 150, you can figure an actual gph of, perhaps, 70% of that, or about 100-105 gph. Not more than a couple of changes per hour. A bit short of what you want.>> I waited a day and then added 2 platys to cycle, and then I added 3 more about a week later. Ironically, the next day I came to your site and read about fishless cycling (dang). <<Well, Pete, now you know. :) >> About a week ago I put in a small piece of driftwood with an Anubias plant growing in it. Okay, here's my problem: the platys are, of course, doing their part to supply the tank with Ammonia, and boy are they ever. However, the Ammonia just seems to keep going up and up, and I don't think any of the beneficial bacteria is converting it to Nitrite! If I let the tank go without a water change for more than, say, 3-4 days the Ammonia will reach a *way high* 1.0ppm! So here I change about 25% of the water every day, which keeps the Ammonia at a rather steady 0.5ppm (still bad). And through all of this, my Nitrite and Nitrate levels remain at zero, as if the Nitrogen Cycle never even started! <<Pete, since you've investigated (or, at least, come across) fishless cycling, you discovered that one method calls for raising the Ammonia levels to 5 ppm via the addition of pure Ammonia and holding it there until the Nitrites are detectable. Fishless cycling, in its purest form, i.e. no additives but what Mother Nature contributes, can take up to several months. Though Ammonia is one of the largest constituents in our air, there isn't enough to speed this specific process up much more than this. While I, and your fish, commend you for the water changes, it's slowing the process. Score yourself some BIO-Spira (Marineland) and you'll be done in hours. (Don't you wish you read that first? :))>> I am rather confused by this and am having trouble figuring out what went wrong; every website I go to assumes that the Nitrogen Cycle WILL happen, and there is no "what if the Nitrogen Cycle never gets started?" section. <<Not possible for it 'not to happen', Pete. Fire a naked aquarium up and walk away from it for a few months, or so, and BINGO!, you've got a cycled tank, more or less. Now, don't get me totally wrong here. Three Guppies might cause an Ammonia spike, but the beneficial bacteria will have established itself based on the supply of 'natural' Ammonia.>> My filter has those biofilter pads for the bacteria colonies to grow on, and if I look closely at the glass by the filter output I can see fuzzy clearish stuff that blows in the current (small bacteria colonies or algae?). <<Or, micro-fibers washed from the pads? A bacteria 'colony' in the tank normally displays itself as 'cloudy' (milky-colored) water. Not what you want to see. Nitrosomonas bacteria won't be visible to the naked eye, however.>> And yet, my Ammonia remains sky high with no Nitrite or Nitrate production. The water is clear and my fish act normally, but I know that they must be suffering silently! <<Almost assuredly. Half of your levels can be lethal.>> I am stumped at this point. Surely there should be some indication that the Nitrogen Cycle has at least started by now! Am I missing something glaringly obvious? <<One thing, in a kick-it-around vein, might be to check out your pH levels. Most kits test for 'total' Ammonia. A combination of NH3 (Ammonia) and NH4 (Ammonium). At low pH levels, a 'high' reading of so-called Ammonia might be detecting almost insignificant levels of NH3 but high levels of NH4 (less toxic to fish). The reagent doesn't differentiate between the two. In fact, actual Ammonia levels might be next to undetectable (if tested for this specific) while the presence of Ammonium could be giving you your high readings. (Based on charts that I've seen, true Ammonia levels are almost ridiculously low compared to Ammonium levels -- depending on how low pH levels are.) Thinking out loud here.>> Should I just dump some Bio-Spira in there and be done with it? <<I would, unless you're really intent on the 'puzzle'.>> Please let me know; I am as curious as I am impatient about what is going on in my tank! <<Since you mention 'impatience', Pete, go with the BIO-Spira. Save the research/investigation for another time.>> Thank you kindly, Pete <<Interesting post, Pete. Nice 'chatting' and welcome back to the hobby! Best regards. Tom>> Re: The Nitrogen Cycle isn't Happening 7/13/07 Thanks, Tom! <<You're very welcome, Pete.>> As accomplished as I would feel if my tank were to cycle on its own, my impatience and compassion for my poor fish wins out. <<Completely understood.>> I will attempt to locate some Bio-Spira after work today. By the way, my pH is actually rather high (7.6) so I'm thinking that my Ammonia tester is indeed picking up on the bad kind of Ammonia (NH3). I am surprised that the fish seem so unaffected by what is clearly a toxic environment. <<As am I but, the water changes are, no doubt, aiding the cause.>> To my surprise (during yesterday's water change) I noticed several tiny platy fry swimming around by my driftwood. They feed and dart around actively, and hardly seem to be dying of ammonia poisoning. <<I'm not very often surprised, Pete, but this one does it! Given that fry, of any species, require optimal water conditions, it's nothing short of amazing.>> But anyway, this all seems a moot point now, since I plan on getting the Bio-Spira today. <<Excellent. You won't be disappointed.>> Thanks again for your help; I'm sure I will have an opportunity to investigate this type of situation in the future. <<Happy to help any time, Pete. Best regards. Tom>> Water Changes Affecting Cycle, FW -- 06/15/07 Hi Crew, <Hello.> Just a quick question about water changes and cycling. <OK.> I was on a forum the other night and someone asked a question about cycling his freshwater tank. The L.F.S. he had purchased the tank from had unfortunately sold him 4 fish at the same time as the new tank. <Common problem. Actually, depends on the size of the tank and the fish being bought. Four mollies to mature a 55 gallon fish-only marine tank would work rather well. But four mollies in a 20 gallon freshwater tank would be a disaster.> The person had to his credit, realised he was in trouble and read up on cycling. He had then managed to source a mature filter pad from one of his friends. <In theory this works very well. It's called "cloning" a filter, and it's my preferred method. But you do need to be moving the mature media from one tank to another without killing the bacteria by drying them out or shocking them water chemistry changes.> He said that he had seen a nitrate spike after ammonia and nitrite had appeared and was wondering whether this confirmed his tank was cycling. <Nitrate (and indeed ammonia/nitrite) levels are almost never the nice smooth curves you see in aquarium books. There's fluctuations to them for a variety of factors. In other words, provided the ammonia and nitrite stay at zero, and your nitrate level stays below some danger value (realistically, around 50-100 mg/l for most freshwater fish) then there isn't any real reason to worry about the precise value or how it compared to the reading you got last week.> I replied telling him that indeed this did mean his tank was in the process of cycling and it was a good sign. I told him to carry on performing his scheduled water changes, and gave him a list of symptoms of stress to watch out for. <Very good.> I told him to observe, and if he noticed any signs of stress, perform a large water change. <Correct.> This is where the question comes. I then told him that the emergency water change may slow the cycle slightly, but was not significant and was preferable to sick or even dead fish! <Absolutely.> I checked the post a few hours later and one of the moderator's had posted a reply after me stating that 'water changes will NOT AFFECT THE CYCLE'. <Almost certainly correct.> I replied stating that a large water change would decrease the available nutrients for the bacteria and therefore would marginally affect the cycling time. <Hmm... not convinced. The multiplication of bacteria depends on other things than just ammonia/nitrite availability, such as time, temperature, pH, oxygen, surface area of the media, etc. In other words, there's the biological law that processes are restricted by the thing in least supply. If the bacteria haven't had time to reach maximum population size, then it doesn't really matter if they have 0.25 mg/l ammonia to play with or 25 mg/l ammonia. Fundamentally, you're looking at a process that is constantly changing. The ammonia and nitrite in the water are the stuff the bacteria *haven't* had time to use. They're "leftovers" if you will. If you remove 50% or 75% of the water and so dilute these leftovers, the bacteria aren't going to starve. The fish are constantly producing more ammonia, and the nitrifying bacteria are producing more nitrite in due course. Think of it like a conveyor belt in a sushi bar: even if you take away most of the dishes on the conveyor belt at once, the sushi chef will be adding new ones all the time, so before long the belt will be filled up again, and the diners won't be hungry. They might have to wait a little longer to get the exact dish they want, but they won't starve.> He replied stating that the bacteria have a limited reproductive rate, and that a concentration of 0.25 ppm ammonia, would be no different than a concentration of 3.00 ppm ammonia, with regards to cycling speed. <I'd be dubious about actual values, but in terms of theory, this makes sense.> I decided to leave it at that as I didn't really want to enter into an argument. However I am interested to know whether I was right or wrong. <I'd tend towards agreeing with the moderator.> I have seen members of the WWM crew state that water changes will slow the cycle and was wondering if any of them have a reasoning behind this statement or whether it is from gathered experience. <Water changes are good, even during cycling, and are critical if you're cycling with fish. Anything above ammonia = 0.25 mg/ is lethal to fish, so you have to do water changes at that point anyway. Any possibly benefits of leaving the ammonia at higher levels will be more than offset by the sick fish. So while an interesting academic discussion, in sheer practical terms somewhat irrelevant.> I look forward to your views/opinions. Thanks and keep up the good work, Matt. <All very interesting. Thanks for sharing. Cheers, Neale> 5 Gallon Tank... set-up, cycling... 03/25/07 Dear WWM, Thanks for all of the valuable information provided on your website. I've learned soo very much! <<Happy to be here.>> My fiancé© and I have decided to have a small 5 gallon tank for our kitchen bar area. We purchased the eclipse hex 5 (hexagon), set it up about a week ago and let it run with conditioned water. Then we purchased two small zebra Danios at acceptable ammonia levels as tested at PetSmart. <<The reason you had no ammonia reading is that your tank had not yet begun to cycle. It needs an ammonia source first to begin the cycle. I never recommend using fish for this. Please read on WWM re freshwater nitrogen cycle.>>>> After having them in the tank for two days the water tested slightly high on the ammonia but I was assured that if I used the ammonia remover as directed adding an additional fish would be fine. <<Wrong. Ammonia remover is dealing with ammonia you have in your tank due to it being uncycled, does nothing to improve the health of your tank, and certainly does not make it ready for the addition of more fish. Large daily water changes are needed until the tank cycles, along with adding seeding media to the filter.>> We had decided eventually to add one Dalmatian molly and three male fancy guppies. A Pleco wasn't advised as its waste would override its cleansing abilities per what seemed the extremely helpful and educated PetSmart rep. <<Not to mention most get feet in length. I don't know that your stocking is well thought-out.>> Anyways, the Dalmatian molly went in yesterday and today (after one ammonia treatment yesterday and one again this morning...as directed)...the ammonia levels are at 0.5 on the color card, which I've been told is on the lower side and ok. <<No, that's not ok. In a cycled tank, ammonia and nitrite are ZERO at all times.>> In a few days, we are considering adding either 3 male fancy guppies OR two platys...not sure whether to get males or females. <<No more fish for this tank, please.>> Also, our one Molly is very active.. swims up and down against the aquarium often. He (I say this because there is a gonopodium.. as learned on your site) shivers for brief periods so I've tried adding some aquarium salt...literally an hour ago so haven't seen any difference yet. I had only added about a teaspoon previously but read that for mollies, more may be helpful, so another two teaspoons have been added. <<Other fish may not appreciate this. Do reconsider how you stock your tank, making sure all are compatible. A schooling species is not recommended for such a tiny tank. >> Please advise... two platys or three guppies? Which gender is more appropriate? Does this Molly's behaviour indicate we should not add any more fish?? <<The fact that your tank is not cycled is why you should not add any more fish.>> Thanks so much for your insight! We look forward to keeping our fish for long and healthy, happy lives! -Lisa and Rich B <<Good luck with your pets. Lisa Brown.>> Re: 5 Gallon Tank 03/26/07 Hi Lisa, Thanks for the prompt reply. <<My pleasure.>> We researched online at various professional websites and also discussed the stocking of our tank with three people who seemed to be well educated in fish, one at an aquarium shop and two at PetSmart before stocking our tank. The only consistency was that Danios, mollies, and guppies were compatible fish and that these three were the best for our sized tank. We also considered tetras but found that they tend to bully the others. <<I stated no more fish due to the fact that it is not cycled, and commented on schooling species as there is not enough room in a 5 hex. They are compatible, but the Danios are not a good choice for this tank.>> We also have a biofilter which was supposed to get things going. is there a brand of seeding material you recommend to add to this? <<A bio-filter piece in a filter is simply a spot for the nitrifying bacteria to grow. Seeded filter media from an established tank, Bio-Spira and large water changes are the only things I would recommend here.>> Also the first test did indeed show low ammonia, prior to placing the fish in...at least that's what they told us. <<No fish should be placed in a system reading ammonia.>> Im very disappointed in the reply as we love watching this molly and looked forward to giving it the chance to interact with one or a couple others. This is the third fish tank I've owned and have always done well in the past without doing water testing at all (a miracle I guess). Its amazing how much goes into this when your trying your best to do it right.... and yet Im still wrong after weeks of reading/researching. Sadly, LB <<No need to be sad, just get on the water changing/testing. Lisa Brown.>> Re: 5 Gallon Tank 3/30/07 Hello again, I did the first partial water change last night (about a third) and the ammonia levels have dropped some...test color closer to yellow. <<Do these everyday until it stays at 0.>> Will pick up some seeding material (Bio Spira) within a few days, and do another change tonight. <<Seeding material is something like a filter from an established tank. Bio-Spira is a great product too.>> Again thanks for your help. Once I get the tank properly cycled, would it be ok to add a few fancy guppies or a couple platys? If not what would you recommend? -LB <<No problem. I think a few fancy guppies would be a nice addition (in time) to your tank. Lisa Brown.>> Re: 5 Gallon Tank 7/4/2007 Our water has tested at 0 for about three days now without the bio Spira. <<Without, as in you did not add it at all?>> I did two water changes (about half the tank) with new treated water. <<Wait a few days without doing water changes to test your water. Be sure you are testing for nitrites, as they rise after ammonia. Very important.>> Our fish already in there are doing fine except the zebra Danio bullies the other Danio (blue something). The other Danio is always hiding in the plants and anytime he/she peeks out the zebra chases him back into the plants. Since this zebra guy is such a butt...would the platys be better? <<As I said before, a schooling fish like Danios is not a good choice for your tank. Please do heed advice :).>> I don't want him/her to pick on little guppies... Or would having three guppies (outnumbering the Danio) be ok? <<Guppies are a better choice than Danios. Try to get more females than males.>> Thanks for all your help... No longer sad, LB <<Glad to help. Lisa Brown.>> Cycling a Freshwater Tank 3/22/07 Well this seems to be a unique situation... <Well Kevin, Pufferpunk here, lets see if we can remedy this.> I started a new 75 gallon tank (freshwater) less than two weeks ago. Substrate, rocks, fake plants, water. Treated the water with Amquel to remove chlorine (back to that later) according to directions on the container. Waited a couple of days to make sure temperature and pH was stable and within target range. Went to a reputable fish store, bought 9 Head and Tail Light Tetras to cycle the tank with. Put them in a bucket and added a bit of aquarium water every few minutes, then netted them into the tank. Didn't feed them for a couple of days. After some initial fear they now seem quite content and healthy. Now feeding them a little, twice a day. I've been measuring the ammonia level every day and every day its 0ppm. I use a liquid test kit (salicylate based I believe). So I'm not getting my cycling going! Wondering if I put too much Amquel in to start and that keeps breaking down the ammonia? I have no other explanation. Fish seem fine, but I'm not accomplishing what I want to do (i.e. cycle the tank!). Help! <First of all, it is not good to be cycling a tank with fish at all. It is harmful to the fish & takes much longer than fishless cycling. See: http://www.thepufferforum.com/forum/library/water-filtration/fishless-cycling/ The few fish you have in there will not produce enough ammonia in a large, 75g tank, to test anything. When you fishless cycle, you can fully stock your tank when it's done. You can fully stock your tank when you instant-cycle with a product called, Bio-Spira, too. Also, you may have messed things up by adding an ammonia-remover, like Amquel. Better to use Prime, as it detoxifies the ammonia but leaves it usable for the bacteria to eat. ~PP> Thanks, Kevin Freshwater lighting for tall tank; other planted tank issues. Not to mention, a plug for fishless cycling! 3/2/07 Hi there. <Well hello!> I have a 20x18x30 47gallon column tank I've almost got ready to get cycling (freshwater), and the last issue I have is lighting. <Yes, these taller tanks can prove challenging in this regard. I myself have a 44 gal. pentagon shaped tank that is 23" high. I had a heck of a time finding a suitable power compact (PC) fixture for it, but I eventually did. JBJ makes a fixture that's 20" wide, and holds 2 36-watt PC bulbs. That's the best solution I was able to come up with.> I'd like to keep some live plants in it (6-8 plants maybe?), both at the bottom and at various heights on a rock wall I've built up. <Keep in mind that generally, the more plants you have, the less algae you'll have - the plants use up the nutrients before the algae get a chance to! But, of course, and as you realize, it's challenging to find the right plants for such tanks. I've had success with Anubias, Aponogetons, crypts and swords. For a great planted tank resource, check out Peter Hiscock's Encyclopedia of Aquarium Plants" - this will tell you everything you wanted to know (and more!) about proper substrate, lighting, fertilization, etc.> The tank came with a cheap light fixture housing one 16W bulb. I'm assuming this will not be appropriate for any kind of variety of plants, especially ones at the bottom, correct? <You are correct. If you want to grow anything, you'll have to upgrade to at least a power compact fixture.> Everything I've read says generally 3-5 watts per gallon, and/or 30 watts per sq. ft. of surface space. <3-5 watts per gallon (WPG) is a pretty broad range, as aquarium plant lighting is concerned. Generally, 1-2 WPG = low; 3-4 = medium, and 5+ = high. The plants I named above (most species of them, at least) are all have low to medium-low light requirements.> Obviously this column tank throws all that out the window I'm sure, but using that as a rough guide, I would need anywhere from 75-235W, if not more because of the depth, and I just have no idea what exactly I would need. Also, I don't need to be keeping plants that require the most light, but maybe ones that are at least the middle of the road in that regard. I'd like a decent variety to be able to choose from. <I understand, but honestly, it's a bit of a challenge. In retrospect, I probably wouldn't try to plant a taller tank, but sometimes you just work with what you've got. I can say that after 5 years of growing, the Anubias is looking awesome, and has reached a height of almost 16".> The fixture I want has to sit on top of the tank (no MH or anything), and therefore has to be only 20" wide, which seems to limit my possibilities (I also only want one fixture, and don't particularly want to make my own). <You sound just like me!> These are the only 20" solutions I've found: http://www.marinedepot.com/md_viewItem.asp?idproduct=ES53111 (96W total) http://www.marinedepot.com/md_viewItem.asp?idproduct=CU01020 (80W total) http://www.marinedepot.com/md_viewItem.asp?idproduct=CU01012 (80W total) Would any of these even be close to enough wattage to work? <Actually, I wish I had seen those in my quest a few years ago; I've only got 72 watts and still, I've successfully grown the plants mentioned above. Your tank is a bit taller than mine, so by my rough "guesstimation", if you go with the 96 total wattage, we'd have similar setups. If I had your choice, I'd go with the 96 watt one - the more light, the better, with such a tall tank...> I don't want to buy one of these only to discover after the fact it's still not enough light. <Understandable. You won't be able to grow super-demanding type plants, but you should be able to do well enough with lower light requirement ones. Also, do consider what substrate you're using, as that makes a *huhe* difference. I recommend a product called "Eco-Complete" - it has the nutrients already in the substrate, so you don't have to mess around with layering different substrates. "Fluorite" is the equivalent product (just a different brand); the "Eco-Complete" is black, and the "Fluorite" is rust colored. Again, all of this is explained very well in Hiscock's book, which I recommend to anyone who wants to grow plants in their freshwater aquarium.> Will I be doomed to having to use two hoods or having to build my own? <I don't think so - just measure the opening you've got on your hood and match it to the product description's. Many tank hoods are units are pretty "standard" as cut-out sizing goes...> Also, two of these units come with actinic lights -- I'm assuming I wouldn't want those with a freshwater tank and could just switch them out with regular bulbs? <Absolutely. If you're doing two bulbs, I'd recommend one 7500K and one 10,000K.> Those 2 also have moonlighting, which I think would be nice. <Sounds very nice - I'm almost ready to buy one myself!> Anyway, any advice would be greatly appreciated. Thank you. Jeff <Hope I've given you some info. to start with. Best of luck, and enjoy your new tank! Jorie P.S. I hope you're planning on using the "fishless" cycling method...quite easy, and doesn't hurt any livestock. Just a pinch of fish food daily will do the trick...> Cycling.... Where's My Ammonia? - 02/11/2007 Hello WWMC: <<Hello, Barb. Tom with you.>> Wonderful site and I don't think I've seen a Q&A/Forum site for fish where the answers have been so non-judgmental and knowledgeable! That is GREAT for beginners like me. The hobby is difficult enough without having others shame you out of it when you're looking for answers or help. So again, thanks for being such a great group :) <<Thanks, Barb. Speaking for all of us, we appreciate your comments. We do, indeed, try to bear in mind that what we sometimes take for granted isn't always 'clear cut' for folks new to the hobby.>> I did check your search engine but couldn't quite find what I was looking for. I set up a 30 gallon freshwater tank at Christmastime and started researching the cycle, fish compatibility, etc. Honestly? I became terrified to do anything. <<Understandable. Kind of falls under the category of 'information overload'. So many things that you want to get right and not enough 'hands on' experience to know that what you're doing is correct. We've all been there.>> I knew that just running the water through the filter would not start the cycle. <<For what it's worth, Barb, a long way down the road, the tank would have, in fact, cycled doing just that. Airborne ammonia is more plentiful, from the viewpoint of scientists, than most people realize. In reality, it's one of most abundant nitrogen-containing compounds going.>> I didn't want to needlessly harm or even kill live fish. <<Bless you for that.>> I searched my area but could only find ammonia with surfactants in it for cleaning and no LFS carries BioSpira :( <<Raw seafood like shrimp or even regular old fish food would do it, as well, though not as quickly.>> 3 weeks ago, I put my son's Betta into the tank. Alien Slug Fish (my son is 6) lived quite contentedly for 2 weeks. 8 days ago, I went to the fish store and picked up 6 gold Danios and 2 blue gouramis. Into the tank they went with the Betta. Everything is fine. Too fine! And herein lies my great confusion! <<Well, let's see if I can clear the confusion up!>> My father in law brought me 2 Master test strips to make sure parameters weren't too deadly. However, they only showed PH, hardness, nitrite, chlorine, not ammonia or nitrate. I tested with the first one on Day 3. The nitrite showed at .5 ppm. <<Bacteria have established themselves. No bacteria, no nitrites.>> I tested again on Day 5. The nitrite showed at .25. I did a 15% water change just because.... The fish were all happy and eating and not losing colour. <<Sounds good so far.>> I became so paranoid about the veracity of the test strips, I took the day off work yesterday and bought a Hagen ammonia test and a Hagen nitrite test (the test tube type). I checked the water yesterday afternoon, last night and this morning. Ammonia has been 0 all three times and nitrite has been .1 all three times. How is this possible? Did the Betta kick start the cycle when I wasn't testing for the first two weeks? Am I nearing the end of the cycle already??? Did I mess it up completely and the fish are in danger?? <<As I mentioned earlier, Barb, a tank will cycle by itself. Not quickly, typically, but it will cycle. The Betta provided an additional source of ammonia which 'fueled' the population increase of the bacteria already present. In short, you actually added Alien Slug Fish on the 'downward' slope of the cycle. My guess? The region you live in has higher concentrations of airborne ammonia than might generally be found elsewhere. Regions near large populations of livestock generally account for the highest levels but winds can carry ammonia for very long distances. There are a large numbers of other sources of ammonia as well.>> I've posted on some forums and I keep getting told that the Betta did nothing for the cycle as he's too small in a 30 gallon. <<Only partially true. He wasn't a huge contributor, certainly, but a source is a source, as it were. All fish produce ammonia so your other responders weren't completely correct in suggesting that the Betta 'did nothing' to promote the cycling process.>> But then, I also get that no one has a clue how I could have low nitrites without going through an ammonia spike. <<The ammonia did spike, Barb. You just didn't see it. Nitrites are the by-product of the Nitrosomonas bacteria processing the ammonia. Like I said, no bacteria, no nitrites.>> I do NOT want to add any fish until I know this cycle is complete! The tank was set up to home a blood parrot and 2 undyed jellybeans and being hybrids, I understand they don't do well in an uncycled or cycling tank. Please help. <<Keep testing the water. When both ammonia and nitrites are undetectable and there are nitrates present, you're home free. Control the nitrate levels through regular water changes since the fish you've mentioned aren't particularly tolerant of high nitrate levels, either. Strive for readings below 10 ppm on these.>> Any and all suggestions or information is very welcome. <<I'd say you're in pretty good shape here, Barb. To keep the volume of information from overwhelming you, pick one area to research and concentrate on that. Lots of times there will be additional items of interest that are covered along with the primary topic. Just as a diligent reader will look up an unknown word in the dictionary, if you run across something unfamiliar, look it up. The more knowledgeable you become, the less intimidating things will seem.>> Thanks so much. Barb <<Happy to help, Barb. From all of us, welcome aboard! Tom>> FW Shrimp <beh.> questions!... and cycling comments. 2/4/07 Hello to whomever will inherit this email! <Audrey> Six days ago, we put two Amano and four Cherry shrimp in our 10 gal. aquarium. They were all over the place for about a day, then apparently they found very good hiding places. We haven't seen three of the Cherry since. The fourth made its home with the Amano. I'll remove the rocks tomorrow when I clean the tank and see if I can find the three missing Cherry :-) <... Cleaning? Removing the rocks? I would not thoroughly clean such a system, nor remove the rocks> In any case, that's not my question. The two Amano had been hiding for a few days. But two days ago they moved out of their hiding place to the back of the aquarium. We thought it was a little weird, since that corner is more open than their usual hiding spot. Then, this morning, I found a molt (I was thinking their colour had been off, I guess this is likely the explanation). Then, an hour later, a second molt! Do shrimp usually molt the same day? <Can> I know from reading WWM that triggers can be water changes or adding iodine, but I didn't do any of those. Do you think that the fact that I started giving them sinking wafers (36 hours before the molt) might have been a trigger? <Could have, yes> (Hikari small sinking wafers, almost the same ingredients than the flakes we give the fish). Or did the move into the aquarium trigger this? <Much more likely, yes> I'm just curious... The two of them were, at least this morning, much more colourful and active since the molt. They've started moving about the tank again. I haven't been home so I haven't checked on them since. Now the colour is off on the one visible Cherry, and I'm wondering if it's not getting ready to molt too. I will get iodine next time I go to the very neat saltwater fish place in town (I love looking at their tanks, especially the inverts...). They don't carry it at freshwater fish stores. One more shrimp question. I saw in some FAQ that Sabrina was saying something about C. Japonica not breeding in full fresh water but other species of shrimp doing so. But she never said which species, and there's not a whole lot of freshwater shrimp info on WWM (I think I read all of it, and didn't find an answer to this question, even using the search box). So, which species of shrimp breed well in FW, besides Ghost shrimp? <Most all the commonly available species...> Ah, and one comment, for those who still doubt the usefulness of cycling BEFORE you put in fish. We had set up and planted our 10 g. aquarium on the very last days of December - no fish, some Pigmy Chain Swords, a bunch of Bacopa, two small Anubias Nana. rocks, branch, gravel and bio-balls in the filter. After a week, there was about .5 ammonia already, but I felt thing weren't moving along fast enough, so I plopped half a frozen shrimp in there, and watched it turn into hairy stuff, then gooey stuff... (can't get Bio-Spira in Canada). A week and a half later, after the expected ammonia and nitrite spikes, everything leveled off. It cycled in less than three weeks total. I'm amazed. I really couldn't believe it. Maybe some useful bacteria came along on the plants (???). <Undoubtedly, yes> And, with the live plants in there, even nitrates were 0. So, we put in some fish, two Mollies, as well as six small shrimps. Two days later, still nothing detectable - and those fish are pooping machines. It works! (I expect nitrates to go up in short order though, I don't have nearly enough plants to keep up with the amount of waste the fish will produce). While, in our 5g. unfiltered quarantine (but with a bubble wand - we had to get a new heater and will eventually get a filter for it, but we can't afford to buy everything at the same time, and the heater was more pressing), which holds two Mollies that we got at a less reputable place and were waiting before introducing into the 10g, we have to do a 60% water change every day to keep the ammonia below 0.5... (I have no idea how people can keep goldfish in gallon bowls for months given the levels of ammonia we get on a 5 gal. with 2 Mollies.) <Yes...> I'm now fully convinced: bacteria are a good thing, and waiting for the cycle to complete before adding fish is DEFINITELY worth it. <Agreed> And almost all this knowledge came from you guys. I do have some books, but I just keep re-reading the same info in the books, and it's not nearly as detailed as what I read here. And there are no "useful tips" in the books, just general rules. You're great :-) Thanks, Audrey <Thank you for sharing. Bob Fenner> Cycling a FW Tank 1/16/07 Good Morning, <Hi Linda, Pufferpunk here> I am in the process of cycling a 55gal livebearer tank. I am starting to get a real problem with ammonia. I have used the ammonia blockers and they have left the tank smelling very bad and now there is a dusty coating all over everything. Is this a normal result of using ammonia blockers? Should I continue using them or just rely on partial water changes and wait it out? I also noticed a skim on the top of the water. The fish are doing great and I want to keep it that way. Currently I have in this tank 7 platys and 3 swordtails and 1 clown Pleco. The tank has been up and running about 10 days. I had to buy another tank because the original tank started to leak but I transferred all the gravel and plants from the original tank to the new one. I just did two 50% water changes yesterday to try and bring down the ammonia levels. I understand with the ammonia blockers that you will still get reading for ammonia but the ammonia is converted to a non-toxic form. Is this what the residue is all over everything and the bad odor? <For future reference, it is best to fishless cycle your tank (do a search for this). Cycling with fish, burns their gills, eyes & skin. To instant cycle your tank, do an 80% water change (to remove the "ammonia blockers") & add Bio-Spira to your filter. The smell is from the wastes in your tank. You are preventing the tank from cycling by adding ammonia removers. The bacteria that needs to establish in your tank, needs the ammonia to eat, so it can develop. You should use Prime to detoxify ammonia safely. ~PP> Thanks, Linda Ritchie Freshwater Aquarium Water Testing 1/11/07 Hi WWM, <Hi> I just recently set up a ten gallon freshwater aquarium and purchased 5 starter fish on the 7th. <Too much too fast.> I was told by East Coast Aquatics to do a Ammonia Test in a week and a half.<Daily, followed by water changes for the fishes health.> My question however, is what other test if any should I do? And, how often should I do these tests? Thank you for your time. Brandi Stahlhut <The answers you seek are here http://www.wetwebmedia.com/FWSubWebIndex/fwset-up.htm .> <Chris> Help with Betta and tank cycling 12/23/06 Hello, <<Good morning, Heather. Tom here.>> I have found a lot of very useful information on your site, but I need a little more help. <<That's what we're here for.>> Here's the situation... I got a "free" Betta fish at a Christmas party about a week ago (they were part of the table decorations). <<That's a new one'¦>> I took him because I thought he'd be a great work buddy and would be easy to care for. <<He can be if done properly.>> Then I started doing some research because I research everything to death and realized that I was in over my head. <<I wish the person who came up with the 'Christmas decoration' scheme had done the same. (sigh)>> The first problem is that he is in a large vase (about 3/4 of a gallon) and the poor little guy (his name is Fred) is freezing to death at about 68 degrees. I've moved him to the top of the refrigerator where it is warmer, but the temperature fluctuates a good bit. I'm not sure which is worse... a steady 68 or an unsteady temp in the mid to high 70's. <<Much as we preach 'stability', in this case the warmer temperatures are less likely to prove his undoing than leaving him 20 degrees lower than he should be.>> I have acquired a 5 gallon Eclipse tank for him and it is set up and running (although I still need a heater). <<Excellent choice on the tank particularly where size is concerned.>> This is where the next set of problems comes in. I have done a lot of reading about cycling the tank so I understand what needs to happen there, but I'm not sure how to go about doing it in this situation. Should I cycle the tank with Fred (once I get a heater of course) so that I can get him out of his cold vase ASAP? If I do this, how do I do it with the least amount of stress to Fred? Will cycling the tank with Fred in there be more stressful to him than leaving him in his vase and cycling the tank some other way? <<Find a good store that deals in fish/aquarium equipment and buy a bottle/package of BIO-Spira (Marineland). (It will be refrigerated.) This product -- the ONLY product - will 'instantly' cycle the tank for you, which will eliminate the delay in transferring Fred. At the same time you can purchase the heater and, a personal recommendation, aquarium salt. Now, if there's going to be a 'tricky part', Heather, this is where it's going to come in. First, change out 25% of the water in the new tank adding a good water conditioner to remove chlorine/chloramine. (There are a number of good products that will do this unlike the BIO-Spira 'wannabe's' that claim they instantly cycle aquariums. 'Fritz-Zyme Turbo Start' is another product that must be refrigerated and contains live nitrifying bacteria however, it contains Nitrobacter bacteria as opposed to Nitrospira bacteria which is the prevalent nitrifying bacteria for nitrites in aquariums. I knew you wanted to know this'¦) Add one tablespoon of aquarium salt to the new water and mix it in thoroughly before putting the fresh water in the tank. Set the heater up to bring the tank temperature equal to what Fred's vase water is currently. (Do not yet raise the temperature to its final setting.) Add the BIO-Spira according to the manufacturer's instructions and remember to refrigerate the remaining product. Move Fred to the new tank and slowly -- over the course of a few hours -- raise the tank temperature to a minimum of 80 degrees. (I keep mine at 84 for what it's worth.) From there it's a matter of good maintenance and feeding. As an aside, Bettas do well with regular water changes on the level of 10%-20%, at least, once per week. Again, this will require conditioner and a small addition of aquarium salt to maintain the ratio at one tablespoon per five gallons. A heaping teaspoon for each gallon of water changed should do just fine.>> Thank you for your help, Heather <<All in all, Heather, this isn't as bad as what you might have convinced yourself that it is. Seems daunting when you get caught in an 'avalanche' of information but all you really need is a few solid basics. Two 'thumbs up' for saving Fred and caring enough to take care of him properly. Best regards and happy holidays to you. Tom>> Re: Help with Betta and tank cycling 12/24/06 Good morning Tom, <<Good morning, Heather.>> Thank you for your speedy reply (hopefully you're in another time zone though and not up answering fish questions at 5am!). I, of course, have more questions now. <<5 AM would be a little early but not by much. Actually it's closer to 6:30 AM right now. :) So, what do you have for me?>> I have done some dialing this morning (or rather I made my husband do it, at this point he probably really regrets encouraging me to take Fred home) and found a shop that carries Bio-Spira so hopefully I will have some on hand by the end of the day. I totally understand the purpose of the Bio-Spira so I'm good there. <<Excellent!>> Why do you recommend the aquarium salt? I've seen some recommend this and some not so I'm wondering what the logic is. Also, when I set the tank up last night I used Bio-Safe so I'm not sure why I would need to do a water change. Just to add the salt? <<There are a couple of reasons here, Heather. While Bettas aren't the 'delicate' fish that we tend to believe they are, their fins are subject to problems such as tearing and fin rot. Much as we may try to stay on top of water conditions you'll likely find Fred lounging around on the bottom of the tank from time to time. A little disconcerting if you happen to be accustomed to fish that display this behavior when they're sick! Since there are other than the beneficial types of bacteria in all of our tanks, predominantly located at substrate level, I use aquarium salt as a preventative measure. Additionally, though Bettas are a labyrinth species that actually require very little water in which to live, the salt does assist the fish's gills in the uptake of oxygen. As you might have discovered during your research, warm water holds less oxygen than cooler water does and Bettas do well in temperatures much warmer than the majority of tropical fish prefer. I keep my water level lowered so that my HOB filter agitates the surface more and, I've a small air wand for additional agitation but, frankly, I like the 'insurance' aspect against unnecessary stress. Finally, though I've read compelling evidence against the use of salt with freshwater fish regarding the elevation of the specific gravity of the water along with the inclusion of 'unnecessary' electrolytes, my own experience, along with feedback that I've received from our readers, is that Bettas appear less stressed and more active with a modest amount of aquarium salt in their water. As an aside here, I don't use anywhere near the ratio of aquarium salt in my 50-gallon community tank that I do with my Betta so I'm not touting the use of aquarium salt without what I consider to be good reason. P.S. The water change is, in fact, to add the salt. You never want to add it directly to the tank.>> I really appreciate your help. I'm really trying to get Fred situated by Tuesday because we're going out of town then. We'll be gone for 5 days, will he be OK without food that long? From what I've read, it seems like it's better to just let him go without food than to have someone else feed him and possibly over do it. <<If he could, Fred would tell you differently, but I see no reason why he shouldn't be fine for five days. Bettas are quite easy to over-feed so I view it as prudent to avoid the possibility.>> Speaking of food, the table decorator did at least provide Betta Bio-Gold pellets so that's what I've been feeding him. I feed him 2 pellets in the morning and 2 in the evening. That's not too much is it? I'll look for some of the other recommended "treats" today at the fish store. <<From time to time you'll see it mentioned here at WWM that a Betta's stomach is about the size of one of his eyes. You could easily reduce the amount Fred gets by half. One way to judge is to look at his belly area. It should be slightly rounded. If it appears flat or sunken, he's not getting enough food. If his belly's plump, you need to put the boy on a diet.>> I'd like to put just more than Fred in my 5 gallon tank if I could. From what I've read, it seems like they do well with Corys. How many could I add without overloading the tank? <<With Corys, I'd keep the number to three. Bear in mind, though, that Corys don't tolerate salt well so, if you've decided that you want to go with the aquarium salt for Fred, you'll either have to cut back on the amount of salt you add or look for other tank mates.>> I like African Dwarf Frogs too... would he get along with one of those (I would just add the frog in that case, not the Corys)? I read the compatibility section, but I didn't really see anything about frogs. <<Fred should do fine with an ADF if you choose to go this route. These are a little more salt-tolerant than the Corys would be though they really don't need any if housed by themselves. I haven't run across anything that would suggest a problem with housing one of these frogs with a Betta and they appear to do just fine with the salt levels that I've recommended for Fred. Just to be on the safe side, you'd probably do well to cut back just a little. Also, since Fred will prefer to feed at the surface and the frogs, like the Corys, prefer the bottom, there shouldn't be any 'wrestling' for food, either.>> Thanks again! Heather <<You're welcome, Heather and Merry Christmas Eve. Tom>> Hagen "Cycle", Bogus? 11/9/06 <Hi Cody, Pufferpunk here> I have a question that I could not find but a few topics on. That is the product Hagen Cycle. I have set up a 55 gallon freshwater tank, with gravel and a tetra whisper hang on filter, rated for 60 gallons. The filter has 2 bio filters on them. No fish have been added, nor will any until the tank completely cycles. Anyway, my question was I purchased the Hagen Cycle before I read any reviews, and they all say its bogus! <Absolutely, the stuff is total bunk! It's nothing but dead bacteria in a bottle. > I did come across a few reviews that said it was good to pour the whole bottle in to get a few bacteria going but that it lacked necessary ingredients to get it fully cycled. My question is would adding the entire bottle, which I bought the smallest one, be a major set back to getting my tank cycled? Also, I plan to add live plants, should I plant them before or after the cycle completes? <Return that junk. The only product that contains LIVE nitrifying bacteria to "instant cycle" your tank is Bio-Spira. Nothing else will work. You can also do a fishless cycle (just do a search) but that will take a few weeks. If you do decide to go the Bio-spire route, you should pour it into your filter then you can fully stock your tank the same day. You must add fish or you'll have to feed the bacteria with ammonia. You can plant the tank before cycling it. Might even help it along. ~PP> Great website! Thanks, Cody Using established tank to put bacteria on new bio-wheel 11/4/06 Hello WWM crew, <Helen> I was wondering if it would be possible to put beneficial bacteria on a new bio-wheel, for a new filter system, for a new tank, by putting it as a decoration in a tank that has already cycled (not making it a part of the cycled tanks filter system). This would be for say a few weeks and then set up the new aquarium. <Yes, can work... better to inoculate the "wheel" by hooking the whole filter up, and running it though> Okay a bit of history. The cycled tank is a 3 gallon one, it had two fish in it, a Synodontis and a Keyhole Cichlid, <Yikes... too small...> up until a few weeks ago when I was forced to relocate a guppy into the tank, due to a fin-nipping fish. All of these fish are small. The biggest is the Syno. and he is only about 1 1/2" long. So, there is no hurry to relocate these fish yet. Toxin levels are as follows:* Ammonia - <0mg/L Nitrites - 0mg/L Nitrates - 10ppm *this is with the guppy in there for a week. *These numbers may actually be lower as I recently did a water change. The new tank will be a ten gallon tank because it's the biggest I could get for the space I have. It will be using a Penguin filter. I can't remember if it's a 100 or 150, but it's the smallest one I could find (space issue). I plan to move as much as I can from the cycled tank to the new one, but do you think it would be a good idea, or would it at least help the new tank cycle a little faster if I did as I proposed. <Is a very good idea/practice> Much appreciate any help you could provide. halexander9 <You have read: can't seem to open here in Cambodia... but WWM FW really biol. filtration... Articles and FAQs files. Bob Fenner> Could you Please Clear up a Little Argument?! - 10/18/06 Hi! <<Hi, Laura. Tom here.>> My partner and I have had differing opinions on whether 'good' ammonia busting bacteria will still be present in a tank which has no filter, or do you have to have a filter for that bacteria to develop? <<No filter necessary. The only "magical" thing about the filter is that, if sized properly, it draws all of the water in the tank through it many times every hour. This "concentrates" most of the ammonia present in the tank at one point...the filter...which is where the largest population of bacteria will be found. Considering that the total cubic volume of a typical filter sponge is loaded with beneficial bacteria versus only the surface areas inside the tank, you can see there's little question as to where most of the bacteria reside. Doesn't diminish the benefit of the bacteria inside the tank which I must stress lest folks start going hog-wild on aquarium-cleaning day. :)>> Many thanks in advance for the answer!! <<Glad to be of assistance. Tom>> Tanganyikan Cichlids Sick... Goldfish Cycle introduced pathogens... no-fun adventure ahead 10/3/06 Hello, <Hi there Erin> Well I've got quite an issue going on. I recently got a 125 gallon tank from my neighbour that keeps Discus. <Lots of water changes> I thought it would be a perfect upgrade for my Tanganyikan cichlids that were living in a 55. I set the tank up, got some live plants, and a bunch of feeders to help the tank cycle <Mmm, not advised... too much likelihood of introducing, entrenching pathogenic/disease problems> for a few weeks. All of my water parameters were looking great after 2 ½ weeks of cycling the tank and the feeder fish were looking healthy. I decided I would move everyone over and give the feeders to my neighbour for his pond. The water parameters were completely fine and the same as my 55 gallon tank. Good alkalinity, good hardness, pH of 8.8, <Mmm... too high> no nitrates, nitrites or ammonia in the tank either. I put them in and they were doing very well up until about a week ago roughly. Two of them began to develop a small amount of Ich, <... here it is...> so I began to treat it with a Formalin-Green mixture <Not in the main/display tank, please, no> (used it for about 10 years now with no harsh effects) <Formalin is a potent biocide... kills all life> and their Ich was clearing up. My problem now is that they have some kind of a secondary infection (I think) attacking their eyes and body. <... From your goldfish adventure...> I thought it was bacterial so I began to treat with Maracyn-Two which I've read is okay with the Ich treatment and shouldn't have any ill effects. Well over the last three days I've lost three fish, one being my 7-stripe Frontosa, and my other Fronty's aren't looking so hot either. Should I start trying to treat this with Maroxy and see if it's a fungal infection??? <...... much more trouble to go over here...> I don't really know what else to do at this point. Their eyes are all hazed over with a large white pustule in the center and white pustules in various spots on their bodies. I really don't want to lose my Burundis, especially my 15' one. I'm scared to death to even look in my tank anymore. Please help! Thanks, Erin <Well... let's see... you have introduced "something" with the goldfish cycling... Without microscopic examination, and possibly culturing, there is no way to discern what the root problem, causative organisms are here... Could be bacterial, protozoan, trematodes... more. I would move all the remaining fishes to smaller treatment tanks (and nuke/bleach wash the infested system)... and consider Chuck Rambo's treatment strategies for African Cichlids, posted here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/FWSubWebIndex/afcichdisfaqs.htm and the linked files in this series above... A hard lesson, and one I hope your livestock survives. Bob Fenner> Clown Loach and Bristlenose Troubles... Actually iatrogenic problems, ignorance, lack of self-reliance... in killing freshwater fishes 9/25/06 Hello WWM helping elves, <Where's Santa?> I am having some troubles with my fish. I seem to have a slow but steady mortality rate. I have a 28L tank (sorry, not sure what that is in gallons). <... dismal. Look it up...> It has been up an running with fish for 5 months now, <... in six-seven or so gallons...> but there seems to be a consistent pattern that has evolved in regards to my fish and their lifespans. We started with 2 goldfish, to get the tank cycled and happy. <A poor idea> When our LFS man gave us the all clear (he is strict with us) he allowed us to get some tropical fish. <With pathogens already installed by way of your goldfish adventure...> We have been gradually adding to the tank till now to get a nice community tank. The 2 goldfish have been given away as there was not so much room as before. We have 1blue and 1 golden Gourami, a smallish angel fish, a bristle nose catfish and 2 clown loaches. <These are too much, way too much for this small volume> The trouble with the fish is that we are now onto our 3rd catfish, and as of this morning I only have 1 clown loach. For all 3 fish that have died, there has been a similar pattern. All have stopped eating, then after 3 days of their hunger strike their tummies bloat, then this goes away the next day, then they die the day after. Both the catfish only lived for 3 weeks, and the clown loach died 3 weeks after my last catfish. <Ultra dismal... I'm changing my mind, opinion> For the catfish, they just stopped licking the glass, and the clown loach took to swimming upside down near the spray bar pipe - constantly. <Environmental...> I have had my LFS man check my water for everything (I think he dreads every time I walk through the door), <I would as well...> and he says that my water is perfect for the fish that I have and commented that if my latest catfish died it was a factor he cannot test for. To make me feel better, he has given me a slightly bigger catfish this time in the hopes that it is more hardy. <... the opposite here...> I feed them a combination of dried food, blood worms (once a week), algae wafers and a little piece of zucchini every now and then. I do monthly water changes of 10% with good water, and keep check on the basic water condition weekly. I am aware that a 28L tank is not very big, <Bingo> and am wondering if clown loaches are the best choice with the other fish. <Nope... poor choices...> I purchased 2 as they are social fish, but have read that odd numbers are better. At this time the remaining one I have is small. Should I get 2 friends for it, or should I change the type of fish, or will one more be enough. I will eventually get a bigger tank, so the fact that they grow has been accounted for, however I would like to know what is best for now and would first very much like them to stop dying. I don't know where I am going wrong, and would like some help before I replace my little one. Ta, from Cian <... Let's see... your real problem is rooted in the too-small world for the species you list. It cannot support this type of life, density... The Bristlenose Loricariids need volumes of three, four plus size to survive... Tiny volumes of water are too inherently unstable to provide proper environments... You might look into much smaller (ultimately) species... Next, your system is very likely infested with some sort/s of disease organisms from the goldfish period... Next, your reliance on others for the care you can only provide is short-sighted to use a kind term... Lastly, the answers to the "present situation" you find yourself the maker/keeper of are of your own ignorance and lack of research... Consider what you want to do, educate yourself, then act... BobF> |
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