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Ridiculous mis-stocking questions w/o research - 1/30/2006 Hi, <Hello> I have a 110 gallon marine aquarium with live rock, live sand, aqua c EV 180 protein skimmer, wet dry filter and sump. Could I keep a clown trigger in here indefinitely as long as it is the only tank inhabbitant, <No, you silly wabbit> would it be ok with a snowflake moray eel considering their different territorial areas? In a larger tank would the clown trigger be compatible with a porcupine puffer Diodon holocanthus? Thank you, Chris <No, no, study oh! Bob Fenner> Clown Trigger Care/Growth 1/22/06 Good Day Folks, <Hello Mate.> I am interested in purchasing a juvenile Clown Trigger. <How small? Specimens less than 2' have trouble acclimating and/or adjusting.> At present I have a 90 gal (48") tank. I've read enough to know that Triggers are relatively slow growers. How long do you think a 90 gal (sole occupant/ <A year or two at the most, until it reaches about 6'.> FOWLR) would be suitable for a 4-6" CT? I have plans to upgrade to 200+ but would but won't be able to for at least a year. <Should be enough time, though be sure you do intend plan to upgrade.> Thanks for the advice, I'll always take it! <Welcome, Adam J.> What?!?! Fish stocking levels- adding a titan trigger I know about its aggressive nature. I am putting it in a 180 gallon with a 2.5 ft Tesselata eel and a 12 inch unicorn tang. I also have a 120 gallon reef and a 125 gallon fish only tank with less aggressive fish. thanks for the reply. <George... please reconsider this. Beyond the aggression, you will have a dangerously overstocked tank. I have to believe that you simply did not know what the potential adult size is of these fishes, although that makes you no less responsible for it. Your eel is one of the two largest species in the entire Indo-Pacific attaining an adult size of... 10 feet long!?! By any definition it is cruel to keep this eel in a 180 alone for even 5 years (let alone with other fishes!!!). Many ethical aquarists doubt this species should even be kept in home aquariums that are so small. See profile here http://filaman.uni-kiel.de/Summary/SpeciesSummary.cfm?ID=5391&genusname=Gymnothorax&speciesname=favagineus The Unicorn tang you mention is a fish which needs vast stretches of open water. (Even has the nose like billfishes). It reaches an adult size of over 2 feet long. See profile here: And then you want to add an extremely aggressive trigger (titan) that approaches three feet long. And so... if we take the sum total of 15 feet of adult fish length and cut that in half because of overcrowding and poor development and stunting... that still leaves 7.5 feet of fish that will not live to see a healthy 5 years of age, let alone a potential lifespan of a couple decades. I sincerely hope that you find a 1000 gallon fish tank before you find a titan trigger. You wouldn't happen to be keeping three St Bernard's in another 180 gallon aquarium around the house? <G> I'll keep the ASPCA number handy just in case. Anthony> Titan Trigger... titan tank I do not believe the Tesselata eel gets that large. <<this fish is Gymnothorax favagineus FYI>> <Hmmm... You do not believe the measurements taken in the field or that we as aquarists have the potential to realize the lengths observed and measured in the field? Do trust fishbase.org as a reliable and objective database. Not perfect for sure... but reliable> From the many aquarium books i have read they said the size is about 6-7 ft in the wild 4 to 5 ft in captivity. <Please keep in mind why fishes do not grow as large in aquariums as they do in the wild... it is an artifact of confinement: the aquarium. Stunted growth, poor development, unnaturally high concentrations of DOC, etc, quality issues in general. The abbreviated size is not natural or even healthy.> I am planning on getting a large tank built in my basement that will be over 1000 gallons. <I am very grateful to hear you say it, good sir> i would not put any of my animals in jeopardy and if they grew to large I would take the appropriate measures. <OK> I am actually looking for someone that builds large tanks that would be able to assemble it my basement. <agreed and wise... look up the folks at some regional public aquariums for advice on regional builders of such large vessels. I would hope that you can find an aquarist or docent on staff that admires your ambition and can hook you up with a contact> I will eventually get a 10 ft long tank by 4 feet wide and 4 feet long. or something of similar size. <cool... but indeed it is better to buy the tank before you buy the fish> and i would not keep any dog larger than a German shepherd in a 180 gallon. <<G>. Best of luck in the endeavor and education. Anthony> Clown trigger 27 Aug 2004 Hey this is Steven again, <Hey Steven, MacL here with you tonight.> I decided to skip the shark idea and I am starting to take an interest in the clown triggers. I have a 48x12x15 aquarium and was wondering how long I could keep a small one in that size tank before upgrading. <I don't mean to be wishywashy on your answer but the answer to that is that it varies by fish. How fast they grow, what they get to eat, etc. It also will depend on the competition of other fish. Good luck MacL> Discolored Clown Trigger... poor mix, environment (Marina Looks for Photos..) I have a 4 month old Long 30 gallon tank. heavily filtered. Prizm (H.O.T.) skimmer, old school gulf stream wet dry filter, 8 lbs live rock, phosphate absorbing media, carbon, PolyFilter. Also left in the undergravel filter, (covered by very little gravel) with 2 powerheads to pump the fish waste back up to the skimmer (ideally.) <Mmm, am sure you realize the requirements of substrate with UG filters, their shortcomings/strengths> I have more bio balls on order to increase the nitrifying bacteria for the system. I currently fight the nitrite with heavy skimming and a 1/3 water change weekly. currently levels are 2.5 PPM nitrite and 30 ppm nitrate. everything else is ideal. <... any nitrite is dangerous...> I have 1 Niger trigger 2.5 inches, 1 nano undulating trigger 1 inch, <<A what?>> 1 Royal Gamma 2 inches (lives in barnacles) 4 brave and fast damsels 3 Emerald Crabs (clean up crew) and a 2 inch clown trigger. <... crazy to have this much fish life in an uncycled system> everyone gets along. <Mmm, for now perhaps... apparently> - I know that your recommendations are for huge tanks with triggers, but I live in NYC and the triggers live as we do, in well laid out, small quarters. sleeping places for all and a good circuit to do laps. I do not want to reduce stock or trade in until they grow too big 1+ inch growth. I purchased the clown trigger 3 weeks ago. The clown trigger survived and ich infestation 10 days ago. I treated with a 5 minute fresh water dip, and then treated with copper. When I bought the clown it had some discoloration, but was eating well, and was an excellent price retail at $49.00. I decided to bring it home and with TLC bring it back to fighting strength. After undergoing medication, the clown is eating well, although only brine shrimp or Mysis. Does not seem to have the desire to attack the krill like the Niger. On one side of its body the colors are perfect. The photo attached is of the other side. There are white discolored patches. under close observation, it does not look to be fungus. Although the fins have some white bits forming, perhaps bacteria attacking post ich? <Mmm, no, at least not immediately, directly the problem... the source of troubles here is/are environmental... nitrite, likely transient ammonia, too much stress from unnatural assortment, crowding> Also the pectoral fins appear to be enduring some rot. I am going to the LFS to buy some Maracyn, is this the best course of action, given I am dedicated to not making tank size change or destocking? Also how long should scales take to grow back if scrapped from netting or shipping? <Mmm, no... antibiotics period are not a good idea in main/display systems... this one, Erythromycin is not a good idea period> Thanks for your help, your site is very interesting. - JR <Keep the nitrite down below 1.0 ppm... through huge water changes, careful feeding, add more substrate, get a bigger tank/s. Bob Fenner> Our poor Clown Trigger First off, hello and hope you all are doing well. Hopefully, this question will become helpful to others that might have the same scenario! <I hope so too> Secondly, my wife and I have a 70 gallon tank which, after the rocks and crushed coral and fish added is, about 60 or 55 gallon. We have 5 fish total: -Spottyback Wrasse (purple body with orange face and gnarly teeth only approx. 3"=healthy) -Yellow Tang (approx. 4"=healthy) -Foxface (approx. 6"=healthy) -Huma Trigger (which I bought about 2 years ago for my wife's birthday as she is the Trigger collector which is approx. 3"=healthy) -Clown Trigger (which I bought WITH the Huma who is now approx. 5" or so=EATING BUT LAZY and LETHARGIC!!!). <Mmm, this tank is too crowded... psychologically... and soon to be physiologically... If you wanted to keep just what you list here you'll need a few hundred gallons> We just did a 50% water change about 1 week ago and they all seemed fine. Tests were all perfect (we've had the tank now over 3 years with the two Triggers added just 2 years ago). The wife tells me that "trigger's like to play silly games. they pretend to be sick and lay at the bottom until you walk over to check on them only to find out they are fine. Let's just keep an eye on him/her to see how it is doing and keep a log". Now, I have never had a saltwater tank, she and her brother had a 150 or so when they were teenagers that fell over after the Northridge Earthquake with approx. 2-3K worth of equip., livestock, etc., so, she has had more "practice". I do notice when I go to feed them, the Clown is very active. Today, this morning, I was sitting with my a.m. coffee and noticed the Foxface and Yellow Tang pecking at the Clown's "poo" and the Clown was just LAYING THERE! So, I went up to the tank and behold, the Clown starts doing his usual barrel rolls, swimming horizontally...etc. My questions/comments are: 1. I'm disgusted that the fish even eat poo that hasn't come out yet! YUCK!-Is this normal? <Yes, and not harmful in general> 2. WHY is the Huma (which secretly I like more but will never tell the wife) SO much SMALLER? BTW...HATES seaweed...eats only krill and Trigger formula. <Different species... propensity for growth is less and ultimate size...> 3. Is the Clown doing this for attention or is there something wrong? <Not likely anything "wrong"... your wife is correct in stating re their play behavior... this fish is very likely "just bummed" out... > 4. The wife keeps telling me "don't get attached to the fish, they eventually get too big for our tanks and we will eventually have to trade them in for smaller fish"...is this true? I really love all the fish we've had so far and they have been with us for 3 years! I really would hate to trade them in. I would love to get a bigger tank but with that comes more work and focus and we have a baby on the way. Is there a peaceful resolution? <Not really... your wife is correct here as well...> 5. Is my tank "okay" as far as inhabitants? The only thing I notice as far as "aggression" is, the Huma keeps getting it's butt kicked by the Wrasse only because it wants the Wrasse's "home"! <It is not okay... is way too crowded, stressful... equivalent to you living in something space-wise like your house with a bull and a bear...> That's it...let me know if I missed anything. <Mmm, all seems well-written, complete... I would trade the Clown Trigger in or get a much larger system... with plans to get one or more even much larger systems down the near road. Bob Fenner> - Tank Set-Up For A Clown Trigger - Great Site. Here is my predicament. I have been researching saltwater aquarium systems since October of last year ('04). I bought a lot of books, spent a lot of time on the net, and wore the ears off of the guys at my LFS. I absorbed as much of the info as I could, read the books I bought 2-3 times, and began purchasing the little things (power heads, heater, etc.) one at a time until I finally had enough. I purchased my tank and all the remaining needs about a month and a half ago. The system has been up and running and is cycled :). Here is my set-up..... 75 Gallon All-Glass Aquarium W/ 48" Double Strip (Blue Actinic/Full Spectrum 50/50) Pro-Clear Aquatics Model 75 Wet/Dry Filter Aqua-C Remora Protein Skimmer 20 lbs. live sand 40 lbs. aragonite 10 pounds live rock It didn't take long for me to become fascinated with Triggers. More specifically the Clown and Picasso. These were the guys that I wanted and planned to start them out small (2 1/2 to 3") with the hopes of being able to keep them for a couple of years, see how I do with this whole salt water thing, then if I am successful, go ahead and sink a lot more dough into a larger setup. Since I wanted such aggressive species, my LFS told me to take the Wet/Dry Filter as opposed to the Live Rock method as I would never really get the beauty benefits from the LR, just the biological. <The biological benefits still out-weight the wet/dry.> They said that I would never be able to establish the purple coralline algae as my Triggers would just pick it to death. <Don't agree with this either.> Low and behold a couple of weeks ago, one of the guys at my LFS broke down one of his very established reef tanks and sold off the LR. this stuff was tremendous. Purple coralline all over the place and even a couple corals!!! That is where the 10 lbs. came in to the picture as I have hopes that this live rock will colonize my other 85 lbs. of "lace" rock with the nitrifying bacteria through the years. My questions are first, Is it feasible to house the Clown and Picasso Triggers in this 75 for a couple of years if I get them at the 2 1/2 to 3" range? <Not much more than a couple of years. After the first year you will likely start having problems as these fish get larger and more territorial.> Second, If I just decide to go with the Clown, lets say 4-5"'s how long can he be housed in this setting and what are some possible tank mates. <Not much more than two years.> Obviously bio-load comes in to play any time you have messy eaters, so I am keeping this in mind but wouldn't mind being able to throw one or two smaller fish in there with him for variety. <Would be nice, but as the clown trigger grows, you're probably not going to be able to keep anything in there with it. Will be expensive snacks.> Lastly, How come anytime I see a Clown Trigger for sale on the many online fish stores, they have a picture of this awesome example that is just marked perfect with these amazing colors? When I see pictures of other enthusiast Clown's or see them at my LFS they are almost limited to just black, yellow, and white and are lacking the bright blues and greens around the fins that are showcased on the already mentioned websites? <Well... part of the reason is the same as why the Big Mac on the billboard looks so tasty - the picture has been chosen to whet your appetite, but the fine print always says something to the affect of 'your mileage may vary'. Another factor is origin - some points of origin product more brightly colored Clown triggers than others - so be selective when you purchase yours. Another reason is often diet and environment. Clown triggers are durable fish but do show signs of neglect - either from lack of things to do, or mono-typical diets. Make sure you have lots of small rubble laying around so the trigger can rearrange as needed, and also offer a varied and mostly meaty diet - throw in something green [like Formula Two or Pygmy Angel Formula] once in a while and you'll find your clown trigger stays bright.> Are these Clown's from a particular region??? <Yes.> Apologies for such a long email. I am new to this and I want my fish to thrive and I want my system to be healthy. Jeff K <Cheers, J -- > Clown Trigger, Filtration Bob, thank you for your book and the web site. <<Actually, not Bob this time, but JasonC.>> Very helpful. <<Is a good book.>> Two things: 1)I have a 180 gallon with a 28" snowflake moray, 18" jewel moray, 8" golden puffer, 6" clown trigger. I would like to add another fish w/different coloration. <<good luck...>> The first three fish are non-aggressive, but the clown is unpredictable. I have tried smaller & tough: He was ok with a blackbelly trigger but harassed a maroon clownfish to death. I've tried larger but less-aggressive fish: He's been great with the puffer but murdered a harlequin tusk and a banana wrasse. I'm thinking of the following: a smaller undulatus trigger (am I nuts long-term with two such potentially lethal triggers in a 180 plus these tankmates?), miniatus grouper (I've had before and it was a pest re: space for my eels, is that common?), one of the larger Dottybacks or hawkfish, or a large Koran, emperor, queen, annularis or half-moon angel. Suggestions/other fish? <<I really don't think you're going to get anything else in there. Your clown trigger now rules the tank, and anything coming in the top will be considered as potential food. I think that just about everything you list, with the exception of the grouper can/will be wailed-on by the trigger, the smaller species will be outright eaten, and all-in-all won't go well for any newly introduced fish. It's a time-tested and true quality of clown triggers; they just get mean. Your only option would be to remove the clown trigger for a month or more while you try to acclimate one of these larger fish into the tank and then return the trigger. Likewise, if you choose to try your hand at one of those angels, it's going to need to be larger than the clown trigger.>> 2) I want the best tank conditions I can get given the still-growing monster eaters in this tank. I have "dead" rock in the tank, an Amiracle SR 300b wet-dry with plastic media, with a Berlin skimmer fed by a pump sitting in the sump. I also have a Renaissance 30 canister acting as a mechanical on a separate line. This setup keeps nitrates between 40-70. Should I add live rock (how much if so) and discard the plastic media? <<I'm always in favor of live rock.>> Will too much rock cramp their swimming room? <<If stacked well, they should be able to swim around, through it, etc... like natural conditions. If that won't work, how about in a sump below the tank?>> Keep the canister or not-- is it adding to nitrates as is? <<I'm not a fan of canisters - is a maintenance nightmare.>> Route the skimmer differently? Other ideas? <<Upgrade the skimmer to something larger-scale, appropriate to the bio-load.>> Thank you for your advice. Keep up the great work! Steve. <<Cheers, J -- >> Clown Trigger tank size Hi <<Hi.>> I was wondering if a 30 gall on saltwater take would suit a clown trigger by itself? <<perhaps one of the baby ones that are so prevalent this time of year, but not for very long.>> if not what size would it require? <<I would consider a 75 the minimum with a larger system not far off in the future.>> P.S.-I love your site <<Glad you enjoy it. Cheers, J -- >> Are Acrylic Tanks Trigger & Puffer-Proof? Greetings Gents, As I sit here watching my 7" clown trigger pace back and forth, furiously biting at the glass pane of my tank because I'm ignoring his demands for more food, it got me thinking. Thanks to your great advice, I'm seriously considering a 300 gallon tank to eventually house my moody friend and his fake-coral-chewing cohort, a puffer. But do well-informed people who raise such fish to adulthood keep them in glass or acrylic tanks? Even at their present moderate size, these two have shown a penchant for biting anything and everything in the tank---including the tank. Acrylic is more prone to scratching than glass. Am I headed for a future of owning a huge acrylic aquarium with 500 bite marks on the viewing panes because of these guys? <I had not really thought about this, but having seen several large Clown Triggers biting the glass of tanks you may have a point. Glass maybe your best option.> Or is the smart move to stick with glass (which would be HEAVY at 300g)? <Very heavy. I once installed a custom glass tank in West Virginia from Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. It was a two hour drive from the shop I was working at, but we were the only ones who could do it. The tank was made from 1" laminated glass, the stuff they build bullet proof windows from, 6' long x 4' wide x 3' deep. It required it's own separate footer in the basement and had a cinder block and steel I beam stand. The thing was a monster, but very nice when finished.> As a humorous aside, my trigger goes absolutely vein-popping berserk as soon as he sees the turkey baster I use at cleaning time, launching the fish equivalent of nuclear war on it every week...go figure!?! Thanks for whatever tips you have, Steve w/Predators <I would look for a glass tank. If you keep it at two feet deep or less, it should not be too difficult. -Steven Pro> Re: Are Acrylic Tanks Trigger & Puffer-Proof? Steven, thanks for the quick reply. I was aiming for a 300 gallon acrylic, but given the need now (and weight issue) of glass, can I eventually properly care for this threesome in either my current 180 gallon or if not a 240 gallon: adult clown trigger, meleagris puffer (both which fishbase state can hit 20 inches) plus a 3 foot or less moray (either my current snowflake or Cortez jewel or Hawaiian dragon)? <You should be able to house those three in either, but the larger tank is always preferable.> I mention 240 gallon since you had indicated sticking with 2 feet in height, <You do not have to keep that height maximum. It was a recommendation to keep costs down.> as a standard 240 gallon is 96x24x24. Or if still not enough, what higher gallonage would be ok? I'd like the 300 gallon, but if I can get away with less while still giving these guys a suitable home I will have less weight to concern myself with. If not, I guess I'll have to hit the barbells harder to get ready for a 300 gallon move --yikes. Thank you for your always highly valued suggestions. Have a great weekend, and good luck with your book! <Thank you. I have to find sometime this weekend to get a major section (live sand) finished. -Steven Pro>
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