FAQs about Marine Angelfish Stocking/Selection
2
Related Articles: Marine Angels,
The
Ultimate Angelfish Aquarium; An amazing and challenging
collection of marine angelfishes by Peter
Giwojna,
Related FAQs: Marine Angel Selection 1
, Dwarf Angel Selection, Marine Angelfishes In
General, Angelfish ID,
Behavior,
Compatibility, Systems,
Health, Feeding, Disease, Best Marine Livestocking FAQs 1,
Best FAQs 2,
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Angelfishes for Marine Aquariums
Diversity, Selection & Care
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by Robert (Bob) Fenner |
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Re: Travis Carter’s Mega Angel Tank
1/2/20
Bob - I am getting mix views on this on the forums and i typically
take what i read on the forums with a grain of salt. I would much
rather defer to the caliber of experience such as yours. Could you
answer this for me...
Do you think a combo of Annularis, French, Queen and Imperator
Angles can coexist long term in a 650 gallon? 96x36x45.
<Oh, yes I do think these three Pomacanthids can, would likely get
along indefinitely in a system of this size, shape. Bob Fenner>
Thanks,
Stephen
Re: Travis Carter’s Mega Angel Tank 1/2/20
Thanks Bob for the information and vote of confidence!
<Ahh, glad to render it! BobF>
Watanabei/bleeding stomach
8/14/19
Hey bob, crew
<Big B>
Picked up this watanabei, 2 inch specimen two days ago.
<Mmm, really too small for Genicanthus Angels to be collected. Like Goldilocks
and the tres Ursids and porridge ave. kinetic energy, there is an ideal range of
size for gathering wild stocks... too small and they don't survive trauma,
stress of netting, holding, shipping... too large they don't adapt to
captivity...>
Had him in quarantine since, and on day 3 developed an odd swimming pattern.
He would swim head up, close proximity to surface. At times he would “pipe” at
surface. Didn’t eat last day.
<Damaged likely>
Came home and he was dead about 6 hours later. An apparent wound or lesion in
lower belly area, unilateral. Only fish in tank, no sharp rocks or edges other
than pvc. Please see photo:
Would swim bladder issue present itself as a bleeding wound? I’m thinking it
could be Uronema.
<No time for parasites... Likely as stated. Try a 3-4" specimen in good shape to
start>
Thanks, bob
<Bob Fenner>
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Re: Watanabei/bleeding stomach
8/15/19
Bob,
Thank you. Didn’t realize that was still too small, I passed over 1 inch
specimens for this 2.5 inch.
<Ahh>
The lfs I acquired him from brought in two of these. The one I got, and another
one, the same size.
That one is still alive. When someone like me sees the one I got dead, who came
on same time as the one who is still alive (same size) can the hobbyist
attribute that to the one I got had 1 more move and acclimation (mine) and
that’s what did/ will do them in?
<Not enough sample size to state anything with certainty>
He offered me the other fish still there at reduced cost, but I am going to
pass.
Thanks again, Bobby
<Welcome. BobF>
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Koran and Annularis in 265?
11/16/16
<Hi John, Earl here.>
Hello-
Please advise on your thoughts of mixing a Koran Angel (about 4 1/2" and
currently in the tank) with a Annularis Angel (about 5" to 6", considering a
purchase of it) in a 265 gallon live rock set-up (maybe 125 pounds of rock,
i.e.; wanted to keep more swimming room). I have a 40 gallon sump, over sized
skimmer, lots of flow from oversized powerheads, and return pump). If not an
Annularis, any large Angels you would feel might be more successfully mixed (and
would be hardy) with the Koran in a 265? As always, thank you for your very
wonderful advice.
John
<You didn't mention what if any other inhabitants are in this tank, which is a
consideration. Bioload, social structure, how does the existing angel respond to
current tankmates? That aside, that is a pretty hefty tank for a hefty fish. The
Annularis, while a gorgeous species (now being captive-bred if memory serves) is
still going to be a plate-sized 8-10 incher as a healthy adult. Which happens
faster than you might like or expect! IF you plan on keeping just the two as a
sort of large-angel tank, maybe with some very small "dither fish" like Chromis
to give a little more movement and
visual diversity, it would be worth trying IMO. Also consider that these are
customers who demand some sponge in their diet.
Your main concern here seems to be their interactions with each other.
Usually I would not suggest 2 large angels together but with space, a lot of
grazing rock, broken-up eyelines, hiding places, etc. I would cautiously try it
out if your heart is set on it. The Koran and large rowdy fish generally tend
towards territoriality as they age and the Koran is a dinner plate sized animal
when full grown. These guys (Pomacanthids) have a lot of personality and in my
experience are smart and therefore hard to categorize like we might do with
others. It's largely down to the individuals involved. Give it a try if you like
and just have a game plan as to how you'll remove one if "negotiations do not go
according to plan".
Hope this helps and please let us know how it goes. -Earl C.>
Re: Koran and Annularis in 265? 11/16/16
Earl-
Thank you so much for the advice. All very good points on your part. I've
decided that I need to dial back my enthusiasm (as far as adding any more to my
tank) for large Angels and be satisfied with my Koran (who's been a
wonderful fish for about 2 years) and not push the envelope.
<You're preachin' to the choir about dialing back enthusiasm for angelfish...I
have been eyeballing a bigger tank to keep more angels for year now! Playing it
safe with 2 in the same tank is definitely the surest route.>
Like you said, beyond their beauty, the Pomacanthids have so much personality
that I keep wanting to add another.
<If you have a second system, I love the smaller angels as well. Maybe look into
those.>
Based upon the bio-load in the tank, I believe I can safely add another fish and
might try a Caribbean Blue Tang. I've had really good luck with several types of
tangs (Purple, Yellow, Hippo, Naso, Sailfin, ...etc.) in various tanks over the
years. The Caribbean Blue Tang seems to be a sometimes overlooked tang, one I've
never owned yet, but that appears to be a good aquarium specimen per Bob's
write-up of it. Thanks again!
<My two cents here is that if you can find one you like, and that stays
reasonably small, look into Rabbitfish (Siganidae family). They fulfill the same
general role as far as grazers on algae, are far more hardy and have a very
laid-back demeanor and are generally ignored by other fish. 10/10 fish. Check
out scribbled, Foxface, magnificent and one-spot Foxface maybe.
Be sure to check that max size as they (and many tangs such as powder blues) get
bigger than we'd like. Just an alternative suggestion.>
Multiple Angels in reef tank
11/10/14
Hello again Mr. F.
I am writing you again with a different question: some time ago I was telling
you about my fish list that I would like to add to my 1000 l reef, asking your
opinion, and your comment was : "nice". But now I have found 2
of them ,a beautiful P. Diacanthus and a C. Duboulayi. They belonged in an
marine exhibition and I personally know them for at least 2 years which gives
them the advantage of being acclimated, eating all kind of foods and
being apparently free of diseases. They are both adults. They cost a lot of
money and more important I want to keep the equilibrium of my tank so, should I
get them and house them with : Zanclus Cornutus ( 2 years in there
) , Naso tang, P. Imperator - almost an adult, he is good, only sometimes it
grunts at the others when feeding -, Z. flavescens x2 , Z. Xanthurum, A.
Japonicus, P. Hepatus, sixline wrasse, 2x mandarins, C.Bicolor, 2 x wrasse
( Halichoeres) ?
The think that gives me hope is that the Imperator is smaller than the two and
of different genus.
Thank you in advance,
Andrei from Romania
<Mmm; I would not be adding much more fish-wise here in this size, volume
system. Bob Fenner>
Re: Multiple Angels in reef tank
11/10/14
Hello and thank you for the quick answer.
Well, the question was if I should get the P. Diacanthus and the Scribbled
angelfish giving my fishes present in the DT right now and the special good
condition of the 2 new possible additions.
Please excuse me for my English, sometimes I cannot explain myself.
Thank you,
Andrei
<Was just too sleepy this AM; but for me I would not add these two large angels
here... Too likely to be discord with your present fishes. IF you do add them,
MAKE SURE you have a plan for their removal, placement elsewhere.
BobF>
Angelfish ; stkg. mortalities
4/17/14
Hey Bob,
<Robert>
Emailed you before about various topics. This next question is more of
your opinion than an black or white matter.
In my FO system of 155 gallons, I successfully keep an Achilles tang,
Powder Blue tang, Aussie Tusk, Sailfin Tang, Green Bird wrasse and a
Maculiceps. My parameters are good (1.022 sg, 79 degrees F, Nitrite 0,
Amm. 0, and Nitrates 40. I have in my opinion plenty of flow (2 return
pumps @ 600 gph after head pressure, and an MP40 wavemaker) I use a UV
light and oversized Protein skimmer. I also use only RO water.
For some reason, I can not keep angelfish alive. In the past
month, I have tried a Queen Angel, Koran Angel, French Angel, and a
Scribbled angel (albeit at different times) and have lost them all
within a week. The seem to follow the same fate, they eat really good,
and slowly develop cloudy eyes, random body spots (not Ich) and surely
after die.
<Strange>
My only guesses as to why are 1. overcrowding, 2. Source of these angel
fish. However, they all come in looking fine and eating.
<Mmm; and the other fishes listed... would not likely harass these
Pomacanthids>
In your opinion, are angel fish just so hit or miss, that anything
happens, or is there something I am missing? I feed Nori, 2 full sheets
daily,
<Not much food value; good for filler for tangs>
Spectrum Thera Pellets, and frozen once a day. This consist of PE Mysis,
squid, krill, clams and frozen angel and butterfly formula (san fran
brand). I also soak frozen in Selcon twice a week. I do 15 percent water
changes weekly, and have about 70 lbs of live rock.
Any suggestions or thoughts would be invaluable.
Thanks
<I'd try a better source... maybe even mail-order (Dr.s F & S)... and
quarantine the new Angel for a week or two. BobF>
Re: Angelfish 4/17/14
Thank you, Bob.
<Welcome>
One minor detail I did leave out, is upon death of the Angel fish, I
removed them at once, and placed in fresh RO water, (more so to preserve
fish until I find suitable grave, as opposed to letting them rot in the
open) and have discovered some fluke like objects popping off.
<Likely are/were Trematodes... easily defeated/removed via pH adjusted
FW (plus formalin if I were doing it) dips...>
Not many, I have seen much heavier infestations in fish that are alive.
However they are there, and I do not see them on my other fish, even
while FW dipping. Are flukes always present in the fish, and that is
normal, or could this have been the silent killer.
<... there are some flukes that are more family, genus, even species
specific. I'd be reading on WWM re... perhaps the use of cleaner
organisms.
B>
Angelfish stocking (Lg., SW)
12/30/13
Hello,
I was reading my new book, The Conscientious Marine Aquarist,
<Oh! I know the author>
and was hoping to get some clarification about the possibility of
housing large Angelfish in a reef aquarium.
<Can be done... after all, most species are found the majority of time
on reefs>
Previously I had written that idea off, but perhaps that was too hasty?
I actually read that it is recommended to house French Angels with
corals. I would LOVE to have a large Angelfish!
<Just need a large space... habitat>
I have a 265 gallon tank that I am still getting ideas for in stocking.
Currently I have a Regal Tang, two Cinnamon Clownfish, three Ocellaris
Clownfish, one Stocky Anthias, five Truncate Anthias (the Anthias all
look alike and interact as if they were the same species), and one Algae
Blenny. I have a few coral frags that don’t look like much yet in such a
large tank. They could easily be relocated to my other reef tank if
having an Angel meant a certain coral species was more likely to be
eaten. It is my intention to have a thriving reef tank.
I understand that “reef safe” is very relative, but could having a large
Angelfish be a decent idea in this system?
<Could>
From what I’ve read, I was thinking a Queen, French, Half Moon, or Passer
Angelfish. Are any of these a better candidate?
<Yes... see WWM re all listed... the French is best here, then the Half
Moon...>
Would avoiding certain coral species give me better luck?
<Mmm, yes... again; there are some less-palatable varieties, general
groups... e.g. most very fleshy types (LPS) are more tempting>
From the reading I have done on your site it appears people stick with
FOWLR with these fish.
Thanks so much for your time!
Sincerely,
Alyssa
<Thank you for sharing. Bob Fenner>
Another large angel question... stkg./sel. for 220 SPS
7/5/13
Hello Crew,
<Andrew>
My name is Andrew and have been keeping reefs for a number of years. I
have just recently gotten permission from my better half to set up a
220gallon.
So here goes nothing. Am i able to have either Pomacanthus
imperator or Pygoplites diacanthus
<The Regal; the Emperor gets too large for a 220>
in a sps only system.
<... may nibble>
Planned stock list other than an angel are as follows 6 Bartlett's Anthias,
purple tang, red line wrasse, melanurus wrasse, grey headed wrasse and
about ten green Chromis. I have searched and read for hours. I am
willing to forgo clams, softies and lps in order to have one of these
fish.
Also are they known to eat chalices.
Thank you,
Andrew Bramlett
<See WWM re compatibility for all you list, propose. Bob Fenner>
Angel Fish Questions... stkg./sel. and by species
5/7/13
Hello WWM Crew,
<Howdy>
I have a 210 gallon reef with 9 damsels, 1 Flame angel,
1 Hippo Tang, 1 Purple tang, 1 Fox Face and 1 Mandarin fish. Last
weekend I added some angel fish and I would like to know if it is a
disaster waiting to happen. I added 2 Flame angels, one Lemon peel and a
4" Majestic.
<Yikes! Well, the system is perhaps large enough to accommodate
the Flame trio... if they're all small size (a few inches) now... The
Majestic is hard to keep from most collecting areas... the better hail
from Bali... Do make sure yours is getting food>
I was told the last one was reef safe.
<Mmm, not really; unless the system is huge>
The first day, all the flames start fighting but now after 3 days they
seem to co-exist with each other well. They learn to stay away from each
other and I rarely see any fighting other than some mild chasings every
now and then. The Majestic is really shy and comes out every now and
then. I am not sure if it is eating or not. My tank has clams,
hammerheads, frog spawn, toadstool, Galaxea, flowerpot, mushrooms, and
few hard corals. Do you think eventually the Majestic will come out and
mingle with the rest?
<It most likely will perish. See WWM re the genus, species>
Did I make a mistake in my stocking?
<Again; likely so>
The water chemistry is always within normal limits. I thank you for your
reply.
<Read on! Bob Fenner>
Re: Angel Fish Questions
Thank you for your replies. I at times wonder why retailers keep selling
these expensive fish with dismay records.
<Good question; and one I've pondered long and hard.... Tis number one
because they sell... other elements; their beauty and grace, that these
are historically, perpetually species collected (yes); their relative
abundance, ease of capture... Still, as you hint/suggest... On the plus
side is the idea that folks WILL learn how to successfully husband them>
I wish I have done better research before I plucked down 150 bucks for the
Majestic. I however keep seeing Majestic thriving on YouTube videos so
maybe there is hope??? Thank you and I am a fan of your book!!!
<Ahh! There is always hope. Thank you, BobF>
Regal Angel Question, then lg. Angel sel. – 09/24/12
To whom it may concern,
<Ok>
I have read your article below about Regal Angels. I am still interested
in trying one. I have a 240 gallon tank with several hundred
pounds of live rock and several tangs along with 5 clownfish. I
have a dealer in Michigan Tropicorium that has two nice Regals that are
feeding well. Unfortunately both are from the Philippines region. If they
are eating well should I consider buying one or simply walk away till
one from the Red Sea comes in?
<Up to you>
If you get them feeding on Spectrum and provide meaty and green foods
should I expect to get a long life span out of one of these fish?
<Possibly>
Your article seems to say almost all die.
<Most from the Indo-Pacific do have much shortened captive life spans;
but as the years have gone by, a larger percentage (still under 10%),
live a year or more. Bob Fenner>
http://wetwebmedia.com/marine/fishes/angels/pygoplites/index.htm
Christopher Faiola
Re: Regal Angel Question – 09/24/12
Thank you for the response. Wow a year is not a very long time to live.
<All is relative, but I agree>
They shouldn't catch them if that is all they live for in captivity.
<There are several notable species used in the trade that on average (or
any measure of central tendency) more than half are dead w/in a week of
capture... Hence my and others ongoing efforts to offer useful data...>
I am interested in getting a large angel. Only corals I have in my tank
are some leathers. I have lots of live rock and some snails and crabs.
Is there an angel fish in particular you would recommend to me that you
think would do really well but yet is still pretty looking? Look forward
to your reply.
<My fave is a mid-size... the Koran. Please see WWM re Pomacanthid
Selection (FAQs). BobF>
Christopher
Re: Regal Angel Question – 09/24/12
Thank you for the response. A Koran Angel wont bother my leathers I take
it?
Christopher
<Not likely... please... read. B>
Re: Regal Angel Question – 09/24/12
Thank you for the reply. I will check it out.
<Ah, welcome>
Koran – 09/24/12
I have read thru the article on Koran Angels like you have asked me to.
Very nice pictures of them. Now in your article it does mention Adult
Korans do eat corals in the wild. What kinds do they typically eat? I
like my few leathers a lot in my aquarium. I have a toadstool and a few
devils hands. Would they touch those? Look forward to your reply.
Christopher
<A mix, some times... not often.>
Re: Koran – 09/24/12
Thanks for the reply. How about a Queen Angel or Imperator or
French?
Would these species eat my leathers or would you think they would leave
them alone? I really am attracted to the colors on the queens.
Magnificent colors.
Christopher />
<... Take a guess: Keep reading! B>
Angels, SW, sel. 5/25/12
Hi crew, I'm setting up a new tank which will be around 187 gallons,
tank size 60"-30"-24", I've been doing a bit of reading on angels on
your site and I was thinking of putting one into my new tank, I've
narrowed my options down to 3 that I like, the passer angelfish, the
blue ring angelfish and the emperor. My question is would this tank size
be able to house any of these angels for their entire life?
<Mmm, not really>
If not could you recommend any other large angelfish that could possibly
be placed in this tank?
<The mid-sized Koran, Pomacanthus semicirculatus would be/is my best
choice>
Also what would be the minimum tank size you would recommend for a stars
and stripes puffer (Arothron hispidus)
<With other fishes? Three hundred gallons plus>
any help would be great.
Steve
<Welcome. Bob Fenner>
Re Angels, SW sel. – 5/26/12
Thanks for the fast reply bob, I live in Belfast and there aren't many
places that sell marines,
<Surprising... I hope to visit there this next year>
but my lfs usually has the emperor and a few other angels but haven't
seen a Koran in the shop yet but I can always ask for it to ordered in,
as I mentioned the new tank I'm getting is 187 US gallons, it's 60
inches long ( 5 feet ) which is the longest tank I have space for, if
was to ask for the tank to be made higher maybe up to 225 US gallons,
could I maybe add an emperor angel then or is a longer tank better?
<Longer is better>
If not what is the minimum tank size you would even consider housing a
large angel?
<For its lifetime... a large Pomacanthus species (all others than the
Koran really)... about 300 gallons, eight feet>
Thanks for any advice bob
Steve
<Certainly welcome. BobF>
Angelfish choices 5/4/12
Hi guys how's it going?
I am upgrading to a 187 gallon tank (L 60 H 30 W 24) and I'm
thinking of adding an angel or two, I have a few in mind the
blue girdled angelfish, blue ring angelfish, passer angelfish
and the scribbled angelfish,
<Mmm, I'd do a bit more reading...>
I like the emperor but I here <hear> they can be aggressive, i currently
have clowns, dwarf lions,
<May pick on these>
lyre tail Anthias, Chromis, a yellow tang and a stars and stripes
puffer
<And this...>
in my current tank and I will be adding these to the new tank so I would
just like any advice on the angels I have mentioned above regarding
their aggression, general care and there minimum tank size, I've read a
lot of different information on each of the angels some of it
conflicting, I would just like to get your views on these fish and
whether or not I could add 1 possibly 2 of the angels to my new tank
Steve
<... Read here:
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/FishInd3.htm
Bob Fenner>
Angelfish questions, SW,
stkg./sel. 10/29/11
Hi Bob,
Thank you all for giving your time to save us from our mistakes, much
appreciated.
<Glad to help others avoid ones I made>
I'm looking for some advice with planning my fish stock, I do not
want to be having a rethink once they are in the tank!
I am upgrading to a FOWLR 180 gal. aquarium 5ft x
2.2ft x 2ft, with a sump. I have a Moorish idol which I have had for 4
years and previously kept a regal angel for 3 years ( lost it to a
goiter(?) growing in it's throat which I have since read is related
to iodine deficiency, my error ).
I love the large angelfish and will be getting another red sea regal.
My question is relating to the possibility of adding other angels also,
though I know there are drawbacks to this. There is a section on
achieving a successful Pomacanthid community tank in Scott
Michael's 'angelfishes and Butterflyfishes' page 281, some
tanks on ReefCentral and elsewhere of similar size to mine ( though I
do wonder about the long term success with some of these ). I am not
trying to run a far east system crammed full of fish, high nitrates
with background levels of copper or hypo running!
I see the ground rules in summary roughly being:
1. Large tank, I know mine may be to small, shame I don't have a
bigger home.
2. Aquascaping, live rock pillars to break up sight lines between
angels, plenty of caves / holes for subordinate fish to avoid more
dominant ones.
3. Try to avoid similar looking fish, and vary size.
4. Avoid the queen, passer and French angel as they are too
aggressive.
5. Feed well, competition for scarce food can only worsen
aggression.
6. Order of introduction to tank, perhaps simultaneous introduction (
but don't overload the filtration though!)
7. Use juvenile fish.
<That about covers it>
Apart from the regal angel, the fish I need advice on are from the
following list, I am not suggesting adding all of these, I just want to
know in my proposed set up, with other angels what there compatibility
is likely to be? I am aware as they reach maturity they become more
aggressive, it is the level that is key, I don't want a running
battle in my tank, the odd grunt or posturing I would consider
normal.
1. Emperor angel.
2. Asfur angel.
<Just one or the other of the above. Both get too large for this
volume eventually>
3. Rock Beauty ( I think I can get a good specimen from my source here
in the UK ) Are these queen angel like in behaviour?
<Not>
4. Blue lined angel (Chaetodontoplus)
5. False Personifer (meredithi?)
I'm not a fan of Genicanthus angels hence they are not on my
list.
thanks,
Toby
<Will need more room in time. Bob Fenner>
Would a regal angel be more suitable for my
120? -- 05/30/11
Thanks for getting back to me so soon.
Would a regal angel be more suitable for my 120?
If not I will look into another direction for my final fish.
Thanks again
<Please read on WWM re Pygoplites. B>
Angel Fish and shrimp... SW stkg.,
reading 5/9/11
Hi there, I just adopted a 180 gallon salt tank with a 55 gallon sump,
protein skimmer and uv sterilizer. It comes with about 80lbs of live
rock, blue tang a few blennies and a candy striped shrimp. The shrimp
is what brings the question. I am going to add, several pygmy angels, a
purple tang, two yellow tangs, blonde Naso tang, emperor angel queen
angel,
<Mmm, whoa! Just one of these large angel species will fit all the
way around, and even the one will need larger quarters in time>
a few carpet anenomies
<No... not compatible... Do please learn to/use the search tool,
indices on WWM... ahead of writing us>
with clownfish. I have noticed nobody talk about mixing candy striped
shrimp or peppermint shrimp in the mix. I was thinking of even a arrow
crab.
<Nyet>
My question is will the invertbreas survive or will the bigger fish eat
them. I hope this is not a dumb and obvious answer, but nobody seems to
have the answer. Thanks, Jim
<Keep reading. Bob Fenner>
Re: Angel Fish and shrimp 5/10/11
Hi Bob, Thank you for the response and after reading Marine Angelfish
Stocking/Selection. I decided I am going to put one large Angel in my
tank, with some pygmy angels, blonde Naso tang, with a few ferry
<fairy> wrasse.
Now Bob, my wife is not going to let me get a bigger tank. I BEGGED HER
AFTER YOUR RESPONSE.
<Heeeee!>
She keeps bringing up these excuses like kids, mortgage, and bills.
<Dang!>
I cant win! So I ask this. I decided to drop the shrimp and crab. I
really want to have few anemones maybe coral or two that can handle
these angels.
<Best for you to get/practice w/ the fishes first... keep
studying... try some hardy Cnidarians... not Actinarians/Anemones
here>
Is there anything out there, and what do you recommend?
<That you read... on WWM, elsewhere on the Net, a few good
books>
I had a blue face angel for two years and loved it!
<You're to be commended, the subgenus Euxiphipops are not easily
kept>
(Then I got a job working for Swift trucking and my wife was too afraid
to clean and feed them. So I had to get rid of it) I Always wanted an
adult emperor, but I also like the queen angel. What Angel would you
recommend and maybe coral.
<All posted on WWM>
May the Fish gods smile upon us all. Sincerely, Jim finally got my tank
back Ivy!
<Congrats. BobF>
Angel Compatibility
4/15/11
Hi there! My eyes are burning from reading the 2 pages of info
concerning this very question :)
<Only two pages!?>
I have a 210g FOWLR tank with 150 lbs of live rock and the following
inhabitants... False Personifer Angel 7", Flagfin Angel 5",
Coral Beauty Angel 3", Flagtail Blanquillo 6",
<Not easily kept; you're to be congratulated>
Purple Tang 3", Dog Face Puffer, 5", and Maroon Clown
3". SG-1.019, pH-8.3, Temp-78 degrees, all controlled by a
Reefkeeper lite for temp/pH stability.
The tank has been up and running for 1-1/2 yrs. with great success
thanks to Bob's great book (my bible)... I've always loved the
Blue Line and Annularis Angels. Being that these are of different genus
from my current Angels, I'd like to try one of these in my current
setup. Which do you recommend (if any) and what size should I be
looking for to avoid any substantial aggression with my current
stocklist? This would be the last fish introduced by the way...
Thanks so much!
-Jay Keel
<Mmm, I wouldn't add either, or actually any other Pomacanthid
to your mix here. What you list will be more than this system/volume
can handle safely in time, w/ growth of what you have already, and
Angels don't generally mix when introduced at larger sizes. I'd
be looking about for siting that 300 gallon system... Cheers, Bob
Fenner>
Re: Angel Compatibility 4/15/11
Thanks Bob! Great advise... I meant to say "Angel compatibility 1
and 2" not 2 printed pages ;)
<Ahh>
Following your advise <advice> has helped me immensely in getting
this far, so I will not stop now... It's probably best to just not
"f***" with it.
<I do hope/trust this is "fool">
Thanks again!
Best Regards,
-Jay
<And you Jay. B>
Jay Keel
Friendly Angel Fish.--
03/20/11
I am setting up a 190 gallon tank. It will have a large school of green
Chromis. I want to purchase a juvenile angel, either a French,
Maculosus, Emperor or Passer. Of those listed, which do you think would
have that "dog-like" and friendly personality to become the
focal point of the aquarium?
<The French, Pomacanthus paru is your only real choice here... the
W. Pacific Angels and Red Sea ones get too big for this volume and the
Passer is really a cooler water animal>
And what would you suggest for other fish that would add both color and
a peaceful temperament to the tank.
<For you to research, read... on WWM... re temperament,
distribution...>
Thank you,
Dennis.
<Welcome. Bob Fenner>
Flagfin Angelfish... learning/using WWM...
Pomacanthid sel. 2/13/11
I'm thinking of adding an Angelfish to my 120 gal Reef tank.
Knowing the risks. What of the following would I have the best chance
with? Coral Beauty, Flame, Lemonpeel, or Flagfin?
<Flame, Beauty and last Apolemichthys>
Thanks
Tommy
<Learn to/use the search tool, indices on WWM. B>
Large Angel
Question (Too much for a 150) -- 11/08/10
Hi again :)
<<Hey Jay>>
Quick question... I'm being told that for large angels you can have
1 or 3 or more.
<<Mmm, not without caveats'¦ Will depend much on
species, size of the system, tankmates, et al>>
Right now I have a 4 inch Queen Angel, and a Wantanabei (male) angel. I
would LOVE to add a 4-5 inch Koran Angel and was wondering if that
would pose a big problem...
<<Probably -- that Queen Angel is not likely to allow the
introduction of another large Angel>>
I have a 150G with a few Tangs (Hippo, Vlamingi, and Kole), and the 2
angels, a long nosed hawk and Midas Blenny :)
<<Fishy attitudes aside, this system is not large enough for what
you already have, much less for adding another large Angel, with the
potential to grow to a foot or more, to the mix. The Queen Angel (to
17"), Vlamingi Tang (to 27"), and even the Hippo Tang (to
12"), should already be in a larger system (300g+) for their long
term well being. These are big robust fish that need lots of room to
swim and to grow>>
Thanks!
Best Regards,
-Jay
<<Happy to share'¦ EricR>>
Asfur... lg. Pomacanthid comp. period
8/4/10
Hi guys.
<And gals Thai>
I recently bought 2 fish, Asfur and Passer. They are housed in a 375
gallon with a large yellow tang, medium purple tang, coral beauty and a
small niger trigger.
Naturally the tang's harassed the crap out of the 2 angels which
are both 4-5inches. Day 2 and they all tolerate each other now. Now
it's Day 4, the passer is eating everything.
<Ah, good>
The asfur hasn't ate <eaten> since he arrived. He is quite
shy when I approach the tank but if I'm far away is out and about
quite a lot. Should I be worried about the asfur not eating.
<Not quite yet, no>
I feed Nori, Spectrum 2mm and Ocean Nutrition Angel Formula. I've
heard there quite hardy and will eat eventually. I also tried adding
Seachem Garlic to the Nori but haven't seen it touch it.
<I'd switch the dry food to Spectrum brand... much more
palatable>
I got have about 400 pounds of live rock. It doesn't really pick at
it at all.
<As far as you've observed. Does it appear thin?>
Also thinking of adding a French, Queen and Blue Ring into the mix once
the asfur starts being normal and moving the niger into another
tank
What do you guys think?
<I would not add these other Angel species... this mixing of large
Pomacanthids is a "slippery slide" of juggled psychological
challenges that few win at for long. Bob Fenner>
Thai Pham
Stocking Question/Dwarf Angel and Other
6/15/10
Hello - Much love and blessings to the WWM Crew-
I browse and search your <sic> sight often - thank you.
<Welcome>
I have read many of the entries/queries re: stocking recommendations,
etc.
Seems a lot of us tend to want to "stretch the boundaries"
just a bit -
:)
<Heeeee!>
I have a 100 Gal SW tank, well-established (several years). Current
fish are only: Pair of Black/White Clowns, 2 yellow clown gobies,
Yashia Goby/Pistol Shrimp Pair, and a few LPS corals, coco worm...
My next purchase is a pair of multicolor angels from my not-so-local
fish store (6 hour drive but all of the LFS's are terrible). They
will quarantine for me for two weeks prior to my purchase, and I will
continue the quarantine at home.
So the question is: I will be upgrading to a larger tank (looking at
one that is 170 gal on sale, or the not on sale 230 gal option) - in
the next 6-12 months. I know that I need to add dwarf angels at the
same time if I hope to have them be compatible. Would it be conceivable
to add the new dwarf (possibly deep water coral beauty) at the time I
upgrade the tank, instead of simultaneously adding with the Multicolor
pair?
<Mmm, yes>
i.e. will the environmental shift be enough to allow them to possibly
get along?
<Very likely so>
Otherwise, I would need to attempt to add the three simultaneously in
the current setup.
<I would wait till the new tank to add the third Centropyge>
Or wait for all into the bigger tank if I have to.
Here is the possibly general stocking plan for the larger tank
(comments are welcome).
2 black/white clowns (pair)
2 yellow clown gobies
Yashia goby/pistol shrimp pair
2 multicolor angels (pair)
1 deep water coral beauty
McCoskey's <McCosker's... named after John...> Wrasse
3 Blue-Green Chromis
Blue Spotted Jawfish
<Mmm, really a cooler water animal... I'd skip>
3 Flame Anthias or Bartlett's Anthias
?Chevron Tang
<Okay>
?Red Sea Regal Angel
<Nah... too many Angels>
Thanks in Advance,
Lynn M
<Welcome! Bob Fenner>
Hey everyone.... Passer Angel sel.,
sys. 2/26/10
<Hello Jason>
I wanted to get a few opinions on the Passer Angel.
<A quite wonderful fish, and hardy as well>
My local pet store has a 4" Passer and I am really interested. I
have done thorough research and I see that they are rather
aggressive.
<Yes, they can be>
How aggressive and to what other Angel could they be compared?
<Mmm, maybe a Queen although this fish gets much larger>
I have a 100g FOWLR setup with just Butterflies and a Tang. Will this
be a suitable home for him temporarily or is he going to destroy my
Butterflies?
<No, I'm sorry to say Jason that your tank is far too small for
this fish.
It does grow smaller than some of the larger Angels (to about 14 inches
max, and less in captivity) but you still need a tank more than twice
the size of the one you have now. Read here:
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/PasserAngF.htm>
I have a Raccoon, Heniochus and a Yellow Tang (all at 3" or
below). The research states they need large quarters and that they are
very aggressive but do you think this could work since my tank is
lightly stocked?
<No I don't>
If not, which other angels could you recommend for a 100g in the larger
genus (not pygmy/Centropyge).
<None of the Pomacanthus or Holacanthus genus will work here. You
might find one of the smaller Genicanthus, Chaetodontoplus or
Apolemichthys species that grow to a max of about 6 inches in the wild.
Perhaps something
like a Chaetodontoplus mesoleucus, or an Apolemichthys xanthotis, but
these fishes really do better in reef set ups. Read here:
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/marine/fishes/angels/apolemichthys/index.htm
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/marine/fishes/angels/chaetodonoplus/index.htm
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/marine/fishes/angels/genicanthus/>.
Thanks a lot
<No problem, Simon>
26/02/10 Hey everyone....trying to shoehorn
large Angels into small tanks... Passer, Pomacanthid sel.
f'
<Jason>
Based on what I read within the links you gave, it pretty much states
what these fish "should" be housed in.
<Yes>
Basically I was asking if it was possible to house this fish in my 100g
and after reading I see that it is.
<Yes. It is also 'possible' to keep an Alsatian in your
garage its whole life, but you can pretty much guarantee that it
won't be happy or healthy>.
I see your trying to give this animal the largest living space
possible
<No, for this I would recommend 500 gallons+, and I believe I stated
that you need at a minimum more than double what you have. I would say
250 gallons>.
but based on what I read it can still live in the quarters I have.
<It can stay alive for a while, yes, but it will have a shortened
lifespan for sure. Large angels like this can live 30 years. That is
what you are taking on with this fish, but it won't go anywhere
near that long in your tank. Had you really spent some time
'reading' you would know this. The fish if crowded will be
stunted in growth. This is cruel, and you will be guilty of cruelty,
especially if you have been warned, which you have.>
Kinda like having a bird in a cage and/or around your house, yes
it's used to much larger quarters but it does just fine in the
not-so-large quarters it's in (considering you provide a good home,
nutrition and exercise).
<This depends on the bird. Obviously a canary would be ok. Do you
think an Eagle would be ok in your living room? No, this fish will not
'do fine' it will be stunted. With a large head and small body.
And it will die young. Does this sound 'fine' to you? Have you
ever seen large angels that have been kept in small tanks like this for
several years? With HLLE and deformed spines? No, you obviously have
not but I have and I can tell you it is not a pretty sight. Is that
what you want in your living room?>
From what I know through my experience, unless severely constricted,
most animals will learn to adapt (I am less knowledgeable about fish
though lol).
<This IS severely constricted, and no animal can 'adapt' to
a smaller body.>
I could see if I was putting a 17" angel in a 55g tank but this is
a 100g.
<? You are under the impression that 100 gallons is a large tank. It
is not, it is a medium-small tank, and for an animal like this it is
tiny, in fact putting an Angelfish like this in a 100 gallon tank is,
to be perfectly honest, ludicrous.>
But after all this I see now that the size of it's home is more
based on it's temperament rather than overall size.
<No, it is not, you have this backwards. Where have you been
reading/ who told you this? The size of it's home is based on its
maximum size, and it's nature. These fishes need space to grow, and
to roam. It's temperament determines what fish you place with it.
Totally different, you do not understand the fishes needs at all. You
need to go back to the drawing board here Jason>.
I guess I just wanted to know what type of personal experience you had
with this species regarding it's aggression.
<I have never kept this fish personally, but I have seen it in
aquariums, and I have kept similar species (Holacanthus). This is an
aggressive fish, but that is not the issue. You have been warned,
Jason, and I leave it to you and your conscience about what you decide
to do>
I'll just do some more research.
<I would. If you don't understand the basic needs of these
difficult fish, then you are not yet equipped to keep one>
Thanks anyway Simon
<No problem>
Re Passer query; sel., Pomacanthids as
well 3/1/10
Hi Simon,
<Hi James>
I think you did a good job on the Passer query.
<Thanks! I do think, that in my passion to see these fishes housed
properly I do get a bit emotionally carried away sometimes, but I
suppose if I have conveyed the correct message then that is the main
thing>
In my 30+ years experience, I have always came across folks like this
who believe things will be different for them, like they are going to
change the physiological process of animals.
<I surely believe you have heard it a million times...>
You pretty much told it like it was and now it's up to him whether
to attempt to defy nature.
<Yes, and even if he does not, then hopefully others might be
dissuaded from taking a similar path by reading and learning from
proper resources such as WWM>
James
<Simon>
Re: Fish Stocking Question... SW Angel
stkg., alg. eater sel.... just using WWM
1/4/10
Thanks for the advice. I have a couple more questions though, would I
be able to add any different large angelfish to this setup ,along with
the trigger, besides the emperor like the Koran, Passer, Malaculosus,
etc or is
it too small?
<? See WWM re>
Also would angelfish or anything besides a tang be good be good algae
eaters since I need an algae eater to keep it in control.
<Ditto>
My main problem is that tangs are very prone to disease. We have around
10 of them in our class room and almost all of them have HLLE except
the ones in our giant reef tanks. Thank You for helping me solve my
dilemma! -Alex
<Help yourself, please. BobF>
Re: Fish Stocking Question...
Alex again,
First off I want to say sorry because I might come off sounding like a
jerk, which I don't mean any offense you guys, but I did read the
forums and was incredible confused by the differing opinions. Like the
Malaculosus
angelfish, your main page about it suggests 100 gallons or bigger,
while some people say that you can't keep it in anything smaller
than 180 gallons.
<Even larger... Read my article here:
http://wetwebmedia.com/marine/fishes/angels/pomacanthus/maculosus.htm>
Also the Passer Angelfish is another one I was confused about because
while some people wrote that it was super aggressive, others say that
it is great for a FOWLR tank.
<Some types... see my article on this species...>
I do understand in the marine aquarium field that a lot of people have
different ideas about fish care and each fish is
individualistic, but when I'm trying to find a fish it makes it
very difficult because I don't want a fish to just waste away in my
tank or be psychologically damaged.
<... then read qualified input>
Any help on the subject would be greatly appreciated! Sorry for any
inconvenience! -Alex
<Keep reading... use the search tool where you found to write us,
the indices... B>
Angelfish tank, stkg. mostly... comp.
f' as well 9/26/09
Hey there Crew. I have a quick and hopefully easy question for you.
There is an article on your website found here...
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ca/volume_4/V4I3/angelfish/Angelfish.htm
It deals with keeping a large volume of fish in a tank. I've read
the disclaimers through the article and know it isn't exactly the
ideal setup although it was working for the guy who has the tank.
I'm curious if you have any more information on the status of the
tank? The article is a couple years old, it looks like to me... do you
know if things worked out long term for him?
Grant
<I do not have any further update, info. re status of this one set
up, but can tell you that this sort of seemingly over-crowded, largely
angel-system is not unique, has been used several times... mainly in
the orient, but also a standard in some east coast U.S. service
companies... And can indeed be "done". IF ones mechanicals
(filtration et al.) and maintenance are up to par, packing such animals
together appears to greatly depress territorial expression... Bob
Fenner>
Chaetodon and large angel compatibility
with mushrooms 8/30/2009
<Ahh, Bruce, friend Steven Pro's wife's maiden name and your
family's are the same>
Hi WWM crew,
I've been enjoying your site for some time now, and I appreciate
all the help you give to us in the hobby.
I am going from a 125 gallon (5' X 18" X 24" tall), to a
180 gallon, (8' X 18" X 24" tall). This is to be a FOWLR
based on the fish that I am choosing and in the sense that I am not
specifically setting up a reef
tank. However I do believe that a few sessile inverts really help to
add to the aesthetic appeal of a system. Currently I have a Chaetodon
miliaris, Centropyge bicolor and bispinosus, and three BG Chromis,
along
with several Actinodiscus, a Ricordea, two Sarcophyton and a Fungia in
my 125. So now to the hard part.
I would like the new tank to contain two or three additional Chaetodon,
depending on ultimate size, and one large angel as well as a Naso
lituratus. My goal is to find species that will leave the mushrooms
alone.
I can always find a home for the Fungia if I need to. I am interested
in adding any of the following Chaetodon: falcula, semilarvatus,
melannotus, ulietensis, or collare.
<Mmm, amongst Chaetodontids, these are all good choices... the Blue
Face
gets big... I'd likely choose the Ulietensis>
For the angels, either a Pomacanthus annularis, imperator, or
semicirculatus, or a Holocanthus.
<Well... the Koran is my choice here... if this is what you're
looking for from me/us>
It's been very difficult finding the few cnidarians that would be
unmolested by such a varied group, and being only able to choose a
total of three or four fish, I want to make the right choice the first
time.
I am thinking that mushrooms seem to be left alone by quite a few
otherwise non reef safe fish. So I am considering that maybe we might
be able to "create" a new category of tank style. Not FOWLR
or reef, but
something in between; that is a non reef safe tank, with a few non
palatable cnidarians and crustaceans. Any further suggestions?
Thanks!
Bruce
<Can be done! Bob Fenner>
Regal Angel only tank?? Reading
4/19/09
Hi, would it be possible to have a FOWLER with only Regal Angel
fishe(S)?
Maybe a 180gal with 5 of them?
<No... won't work>
Would that be over crowding?
<... ridiculous>
Will that leave space for anything else like 5 Anthias?
Is there any Angel species that can be kept in a harem in the 180 gal
tank?
Cheers
Ranjith
<Yes... read here: http://wetwebmedia.com/FishInd3.htm
B>
Re: Damsel color change?
Neopomacentrus f', Lg. Angel sel.
2/22/09 Looks like you nailed it!! Thanks! Any different
behavior for this species? <Different? This is one of the genera of
Damsels that are neither totally solitary/territorial, nor
schooling-social... sort of mean, but not totally stand-offish> The
one I have is VERY shy and retiring... but I think being overcrowded,
including a couple bruisers (the 2 Clarkiis and the 6" jeweled
damsel may not have given him much choice. <Agreed> BTW the
cleaner (who IS eating well and looking very healthy... thank
goodness), the coral beauty and the scopas have successfully made the
transition to my 150 gallon. Think they really appreciate the extra
room. Unrelated question, in the 150, besides the scopas, false Percs
(2), canary wrasse, starry eyed blenny, coral beauty, and cleaner
wrasse, was thinking of adding (over time) a threadfin butterfly, a
Naso, and a large angel. Initially was looking into King/Passer, but
after further consideration and reading, think maybe too
large/aggressive for a 150gallon. Any suggestions for a smaller
(reasonably priced:) large angel? <Mmm, my best choice here... A
Koran, P. semicirculatus. Bob Fenner>
Mike Tyson type of Angel aggression?
Searching for a Perfect Angel (Angelfish Selection) - 09/12/08
Hello you all over there, <Hey there! Scott F. in today!> I have
a question today about the large Angel fish. I love their coloring and
size, but keep reading about the aggressive/semi-aggressive temperament
of them as I do my research. I don't want my Lipstick Tang or two
butterfly fish to be nipped at or bullied around. The reports I have
read suggest that your tank have lots of caves for your smaller fish to
hide in because the large Angel genus is also territorial. I am
searching for a large Angel, not a dwarf, that is peaceful, about
12" - 15" max, and very colorful with blues, reds, yellows,
greens, like the Queen or the Blue. I have read through your FAQ's,
and have learned a lot regarding the feeding requirements of Angels. I
have a 320 gallon rectangle tank, 8 ft. long. 200 lbs. of live rock,
and just the other three fish mentioned above. I have a 40 gal.
refugium, and it has been set up since summer, 2007. <Sounds
nice!> My specific question about them is regarding that tag of
"aggressive". Exactly what does that term mean in relation to
these fishes behavior? Aggressive, as in nip at my other fish? Eat
them? Chase them around the tank? Mike Tyson on Evander Holyfield's
ear aggressive? Or does that label imply that because they are
territorial, they would chase away another fish if it swam too close to
its "area" in the tank? But otherwise, not harass, or bully
the others? <Great question! The answer? All of the above- and more.
The tag "aggressive" also means a fish that will harass other
fishes when they try to eat. Behavior during feeding is often
overlooked when selecting a fish, IMO. Many of these fishes are also
aggressive feeders, and will chase other fishes away while eating. This
may require that you have two feeding sessions, or that you simply keep
a very close eye peeled while feeding.> You all are so knowledgeable
over there. I respect your advice given to others. Could you please
recommend a peaceful, large 12"-15" blue/green/red/yellow
specimen for my docile tank? Is there such a thing? <Well, there are
several fishes that fall into that category, I suppose. As far as the
colors you're looking for- none of my recommendations are exactly
what you're looking for. However, they are spectacular, and
reasonably peaceful choices once acclimated. I should tell you at the
outset that I am always a bit hesitant to recommend fishes that hit
12"-15" in size. Fishes like the Emperor Angel achieve this
length, and require absolutely huge amounts of space. In nature,
studies have suggested that they roam over areas the size of a US
Football field (100 yards long). You simply cannot provide this type of
space in captivity. A compromise is required. I'd be inclined to
recommend a member of the genus Chaetodontoplus, such as C.
caeruleopunctatus, which reaches a much more manageable 6 inches, is
not aggressive, and has a subtle beauty. If you want to spend the BIG
$$$ on a medium sized angel, you'd be hard-pressed to find a nicer
fish than C. conspicillatus, in my opinion. They can be challenging to
keep, difficult to acquire, but are among the most beautiful and
personable of the group once they adapt to captive life. They top off
around 10" in length. My other large angelfish recommendation is
the Majestic Angelfish, Pomacanthus navarchus. Another fish that can
have a bit of a tougher time adapting to captivity, this is a
spectacular one, topping out around 10". Once it acclimates,
it's a showpiece. It can actually be a bit shy, so take this into
account.> Thank you so much for your help. I have done much reading
on these creatures, but just can't seem to find this answer. Martha
<Well, Martha, I hope these selections give you some further
research material. You should still consider my favorite genus,
Centropyge- Dwarf angelfishes, or the mid-sized Genicanthus genus.
These are also beautiful, interesting fishes that may be a better size
fit for captive care. They vary widely in terms of ease of care and
aggressiveness, but are worthy of consideration. Best of luck! Regards,
Scott F.>
What Large Angels will my system support
(UNCLASSIFIED) 7/25/08 I have a tank with dimensions
48*24*30 150 gallons, and I would like to have one large angelfish in
this setup could your staff recommend me a couple of choices that would
work for this system for the lifespan of the fish <... Stop
stealing... and Read: http://wetwebmedia.com/fishindex3.htm Bob
Fenner>
Choosing A Large Marine
Angel…Some Need Really Large Quarters - 06/06/08 I have a
salt water aquarium that is 72" long, 20" high and 30"
wide, about 187gallons. The aquarium presently houses a marine Betta,
dwarf fuzzy lion and flame hawk. I am going to add an Australian
harlequin tusk wrasse and a juvenile angel, either French or Yellow
Map, in early July of this year. <<I feel the French Angel is the
better choice (though just barely)…I think Pomacanthus maculosus
will get too large for this tank for the long term…would need at
least another 100g in volume>> My question: what suggestion do
you have as to the number of other fish that I could add to the
aquarium and what fish would you suggest. Or do you think that I should
leave it as is. <<I would "leave as is"…some
messy feeders here. And… The French Angel will make a spectacular
"centerpiece" for this tank>> Thank you, Dennis
<<Happy to assist. EricR>>
New 750 gallon aquarium, stkg
SW 4/27/08 hello bob.....i am so happy to see
that many of you try to help people that you don't even know... i
love your website and i need some answer from you please... my tank is
currently cycling and in 2-3 weeks it will be ready for my first few
fish.. i just want to ask you the compatibility of these fish... 1)
Annularis angel 5-6 in 2) Blue face angel 5-6 in 3) Koran angel 7-8 in
4) Majestic angel 5-6 in 5) French angel 7-8 in 6) Cream angelfish 3-4
in 7) Asfur angel 5-6 in 8) Queen angel 5.5-6.5 in 9) Emperor angel 5-6
in <I'd start all these Angels at the 3-4 inch length to
start... much more likely to be healthy, get along> 10) 3 Heniochus
butterfly 3-4 in 11) 2 falcula butterfly 3-4 in 12) 4 pacific blue tang
2.5-3.5 in 13) desjardinii Sailfin tang 4-5 in 14) Naso tang 5-6 in 15)
powder blue tang 3-4 in 16) 2 Scopas tang 3-4 in 17) 2 purple tang 3-4
in 18) 2 yellow tang 3-4 in 19) magnificent foxface4.5-5.5 in 20) blue
throat trigger 3.5-4.5 in 21) Humu Humu trigger 3-4 in 22) black
trigger 3-4 in 23) niger trigger 3-4 in 24) rectangle trigger 3.5-4.5
in 25)2 tomato clownfish 2-3 in 26) 2 Pakistani Butterflyfish 2-3 in
27) 2 auriga butterfly 2-3 in 28) 6 cleaner wrasse 1-2 in <Either
skip these or just two> please tell me your opinion and if you think
i shouldn't add some fish.....i really appreciate your opinion...i
know cleaner wrasse are hard but someone told me that they very
important and with a fish population this big. they'll have a lot
of food.. <All should be carefully acclimated, quarantined (per WWM)
before introducing. Bob Fenner>
Passer Angel... Sys. 3/14/08
Hello Bob I'm looking at getting a smaller of one of the
larger angels, and have been reading alot <... no such
word> on the Passer/King Angelfish. In one of your articles
you had stated they should max out at around 9", but I have
read 9", 10", 12" and 14". Could you point me
in the right direction for the passer's max size in a
aquarium. <... really mainly depends on the size of the
system... the nine inch is a good general maximum length for
almost all hobby sizes...> I have a 125 gallon, <Won't
get even this size here> will a 4" to 5" through
adult size passer be ok with blood shrimp, boxer shrimp, cleaner
crabs and snails, <May eat any/all...> 1.5" neon goby,
3" p. clown, 4" yellow tang and a 3" regal tang?
If not would one of these be a better angel for my system, and
are these max sizes right? Annularis (max 8")Queensland
Yellow Tail ( max 10") Black Velvet (max 8") <None
of these Pacific Angels is really suitable for a 125 gallon
volume> Also I would like to get a dwarf angel, maybe a flame,
can you mix dwarfs and large angels? Thanks a lot Todd <See
WWM re... BobF>
Re: Passer Angel... Large
angels, sel., need to proof writing... for grammar, clarity
- 03/18/08 How's it going Bob I didn't realize a
passer angel was such a bruiser, with more reading I have
realized that. <... run on...> It sounds like a asfur angel
or a emperor angel would be ok with my shrimp, crabs and some of
the smaller fish, they sound a little more peaceful (or at least
not as aggressive). Do you agree? <With what? Relative
compatibility? Not really> Would a queen angel be ok with
shrimp, crabs and smaller fish, I've heard good and bad about
the queen's, What's your opinion? <... posted> You
stated that a passer angel will not even get 8" in a 125
gallon, I thought angels would out grow their tank if it was not
big enough, and that was the point off getting a big enough tank
or a small enough (growing to max size adult) angel, to start
with. <...? What? To provide adequate living space, expression
(age...), health...> That's why I was looking for one of
the smaller, bigger angels. The asfur angel and emperor angel get
about 15" to 17" max size, and the asfur angel will max
out at about 8" to 9" in captivity, Will the emperor
angel max out at 8" to 9" also in captivity?
<Often> I though a 72"X18"X20" aquarium
would be plenty big enough for a 8" to 9" angel,
<Not really> I know they need room to swim, but that seems
like enough for that size angel, I can see that size not being
big enough for a 15" to 17" angel, but i figured it was
plenty for a 8" to 9" angel. What size do you suggest
for a 8" to 9" angel? <... For what? Size system?
Eight feet long or larger, 2-3 hundred gallons> In a previous
email on cleaner shrimp and gobies you stated that (they
don't eat the encrusted stage of Ich lying on the sand and
rocks, or at least reliably, and the other two stages can't
be seen). So how do they help control Ich then, if they can't
see two of the stages and the third one they barely feed on?
<Ahh! Posted also... Control, not cure... mostly (apparently)
by making the host fishes feel better> I have seen them
cleaning fish lots of times, I always thought they were picking
the parasites off? <Nope. RMF>
Re: Passer Angel, responding to folks who
don't have the common courtesy to follow simple
instructions... go someplace else - 3/18/08 Bob
<Todd> I know a lot of that stuff is posted, I just
don't understand all of it, which is why I'm writing you
about the stuff. And I'll be the first one to tell you my
grammar isn't the best, but I try my best for you. Don't
you enjoy talking about this stuff???? Seems like you just want
to use your expertise to be a jerk to the inexperienced!!! You
were a teacher right? When your students didn't understand
the material and asked questions, did you just tell them its
posted? It's obvious you care more about belittling me and
other fish hobbyists about our grammar and what we don't
understand, then to give us a hand and help us out. I've
always been very nice to you in my emails and it's ridiculous
the way you act towards me in your replies (considering how much
you say you love the hobby). One of my hobbies is racing and
sports cars. I couldn't imagine acting like you do towards
somebody that was asking a question about something that was one
of my favorite things in life. I would love to help them, no
matter how bad their grammar and how stupid the question. Seems
your only nice to the knowledgeable one's with good grammar.
<Thank you. Go elsewhere. B>
|
Time to setup a new tank, but
with some stocking questions related to large Marine Angels. Many
different opinions out there. Big Aquarium- Big Fish?
3/12/08 Hey Crew, <Hey there! Scott F. in today!> I had
to take down my tank about a year ago and sell it, due to the
real world getting in the way of my hobbies. <How does THAT
happen? LOL> Now, I have a brand new 125G (72"L x
18"W) tank, about 165 pounds of live rock, 140 pounds of
live sand and a bunch of different ideas for stocking! <Nice
position to be in!> I have been reading WWM a lot as well as a
few other sites. I hear and read a lot of differing opinions and
have heard many different stories from friends to guy next to me
at the LFS. I know that Bob and Scott Michael tend to vary a bit
in their writings on minimum tank sizes for certain species.
Maybe my answer will be in the middle. <Perhaps both Bob and
Scott would tell you that they are offering suggestions for each
species, and that these are based on their experiences and
judgments. Like so many things in the hobby, this can vary.>
The main issue that I have is that you guys say my tank is too
small for a large marine angel. Others say I should be ok.
Let's say the Queen or Emperor Angel I buy (just an example)
does reach 18" long, so wouldn't a 215G be too small as
well? It's only another 6" in terms of width. I would
think that the fish would still be cramped. I hope I am not
coming off as rude or argumentative, just seeking an unbiased
answer. You guys write to people with the fishes' best
interest and not of the aquarist or LFS. I can appreciate that,
and that is why I am writing you. <I agree with you. I am
pretty conservative in my stocking philosophy, and I would not
even think of keeping a full-sized angel in any aquarium less
than 8 feet in length. To be quite honest, I am not a fan of
keeping these fishes at all, which is certainly against the grain
of many of my peers. Many of these fishes range over huge tracts
of reef in nature, and really deserve to live their lives in
extremely large surroundings. Anything else is like you or having
to be confined to our living rooms for the rest of our lives:
Survivable, but intolerable over time.> I am still in the
planning stage and trying to look ahead to any problems. I had a
juv. Emperor for about a year and a half before he ended up
dying. I just didn't have the time to take care of him or the
tank properly and he suffered for it. I ended up having to
euthanize him. I gave my other fishes away to a friend. It sucks,
but it happens. I have to say that he really was an endearing
fish and that I would really like to try again. In this sized
tank, just how long would one last (assuming everything goes well
and he does well in captivity) starting from a 2-3" juv.
specimen? If it is a few years, then I will go for it. <I
really don't think it would be that long. Maybe a year or
two, if that. Although these fishes do not grow super fast, they
can grow quicker than we might like, and do need correspondingly
large quarters as they grow. I do not subscribe to the theory
that "they will grow to the size of their
aquariums."> Or, are there really any large angels that
would be ok in that system for the long haul? Some say an Emperor
can last for the long haul, some disagree. <Last, sure.
Thrive? It depends, really, on what your definition of
"thriving" is. I am probably a bit too biased, but
I'm skeptical of their long-term viability in anything less
than aquariums of hundreds of gallons of volume.> I am also
considering a Blue Angel (H. bermudensis) or a Blue-Ringed Angel
(P. Annularis). Or would it be different species, same problem?
Maybe I would be better with just 2 dwarf angels. <I would
definitely consider the Dwarf Angel pair or trio instead.> I
am not looking more than a few years into the future regarding
keeping the fishes as I have learned a lot can happen before you
know it and keeping fishes may not fit into your life. We all
plan/hope for the best when starting out new endeavors, but I
know it doesn't always work out that way. <Absolutely.
I'm glad you feel this way.> But at the same time, I
believe if someone is to do something, then he/she should do it
right or at least to the best of his/her abilities. Who knows, I
could have the means (and space) to get a 1,000G system in a few
years. If it turns out the fish outgrows the tank, I will act in
the best interest of the fish. I will either donate it, trade it
or upgrade to a bigger tank. I will cross that bridge when/if I
get there. <Yes...and best not to assume that you will have
such a system available in the future.> I would really like to
try my hand again at an Achilles Tang, but maybe that one is just
better left in the ocean. The last one I had I thought would be
the 1 out of 10 that would make it. Seemed well adjusted
socially/mentally and readily accepted food, put my Blue Hippo to
shame as far as wolfing down food goes... Bob and I exchanged a
few emails and he suggested Spectrum. The fish just turned his
nose at it. Every fish has its own taste I guess. Everything
seemed to be going great and one day I go to turn the light on
and the fish is as dead as dead can be. From what I have been
reading the last few months, I am not alone in this experience. I
guess that is what "just not well suited for captivity"
means. <Perhaps!> It seems that the Gold Rim Tang (A.
Nigricans) is a better choice. But how much better is it really?
I also read that it really isn't much easier than the
Achilles Tang. Am I going from "darn near impossible"
to "likely impossible" with the Gold Rim? Some say the
Gold Rim is under the "moderate" level of care. I
don't know why, but those two just appeal to me more than any
other. <I'd be doing a disservice to you if I said it was
an easy fish to keep. However, it is not impossible. Many
criteria come into play when considering keeping such a fish (i.e.;
the source, handling, etc. of the fish before it arrives at your
LFS).> Basically what I am looking at is this: (all of them
would be considered small/juv. {2-3" when purchased}) One
large angel (in juv. form of the variety listed above, although
most likely Emperor) One Flame Angel One Blue Hippo Tang A pair
of clowns (either Maroon or Percula) Maybe one Achilles or Gold
Rim Maybe a Butterfly (I wish the Ornate was on the good list) I
don't think that sounds overstocked, what do you guys think?
Any thoughts or opinions are welcome even if not what I want to
hear. <Well, you asked. To be honest, I believe that this is
too much bioload for this system. You really need to pare down
the stocking list to only one of the two larger Tangs (either the
Hippo or the Gold Rim).> Trust me; I don't want to be that
guy who stuffed 25+ angels into a 250G tank. That article was
insane. <Yep!> Best Wishes to you all, Jeremy <Well,
Jeremy, I think you hit it on the head. Responsible stocking
involves taking into account a multitude of factors, many of
which you have already addressed. Go with your gut feelings and
your fish will benefit! Good luck! Regards, Scott F.>
Re: Time to setup a new tank, but with some stocking questions
related to large Marine Angels. Many different opinions out
there -03/17/08Hi Scott F.! My replies will be in
double carrots. Hey Crew, <Hey there! Scott F. in today!> I
had to take down my tank about a year ago and sell it, due to the
real world getting in the way of my hobbies. <How does THAT
happen? LOL> Now, I have a brand new 125G (72"L x
18"W) tank, about 165 pounds of live rock, 140 pounds of
live sand and a bunch of different ideas for stocking! <Nice
position to be in!> <<Well, it was by design... ;) I
originally bought it for the Emperor Angel that I had. I have had
a bunch of aquarium stuff sitting in the garage for about 16
months now. Now I get to re-cure most my live rock again because
I just checked it and it doesn't look too well. At least the
dead matter should be of use as an ammonia source to start the
cycle. Out of sight, out of mind I guess. A big oops on that
one... I will let it cycle naturally on its own anyway for at
least 2 months. In addition to that, wouldn't it help any
parasites (namely crypt) die off on their own before any
livestock is introduced? BioSpira is some good stuff, but I am
more of a naturalist. Then again, why not do both?>> I have
been reading WWM a lot as well as a few other sites. I hear and
read a lot of differing opinions and have heard many different
stories from friends to guy next to me at the LFS. I know that
Bob and Scott Michael tend to vary a bit in their writings on
minimum tank sizes for certain species. Maybe my answer will be
in the middle. <Perhaps both Bob and Scott would tell you that
they are offering suggestions for each species, and that these
are based on their experiences and judgments. Like so many things
in the hobby, this can vary.> <<I was just using Bob and
Scott as examples, but you got the idea. That and their opinions
are so varied. Bob says Emperors will outgrow 215G tanks and
Scott (and Live Aquaria) says that 100-125G is the minimum tank
size or something to that effect. That is a lot of variation. I
am not accusing anyone of being "wrong;" it just
creates a lot of confusion.>> The main issue that I have is
that you guys say my tank is too small for a large marine angel.
Others say I should be ok. Let's say the Queen or Emperor
Angel I buy (just an example) does reach 18" long, so
wouldn't a 215G be too small as well? It's only another
6" in terms of width. I would think that the fish would
still be cramped. I hope I am not coming off as rude or
argumentative, just seeking an unbiased answer. You guys write to
people with the fishes' best interest and not of the aquarist
or LFS. I can appreciate that, and that is why I am writing you.
<I agree with you. I am pretty conservative in my stocking
philosophy, and I would not even think of keeping a full-sized
angel in any aquarium less than 8 feet in length. To be quite
honest, I am not a fan of keeping these fishes at all, which is
certainly against the grain of many of my peers. Many of these
fishes range over huge tracts of reef in nature, and really
deserve to live their lives in extremely large surroundings.
Anything else is like you or having to be confined to our living
rooms for the rest of our lives: Survivable, but intolerable over
time.> <<That's pretty much how I look at it as
well. The biggest problem that I have is me here. If it
wasn't for Angels and Tangs/Surgeonfishes, I wouldn't
bother to have an aquarium in the first place. Fresh water
systems have never interested me. Not that I have any prejudice
against them, I just see it as a common thing and somewhat boring
because of that. I am not saying I am right to feel this way, but
the fact is that I do. No offense meant. FWIW, I actually
volunteer for a public park here in Houston and I take care of
their aquariums when my schedule permits. Each tank symbolizes a
part of the pond (Surface, bottom, mid-zone, etc.). I do it to
give back, but it really hasn't changed my opinion of
freshwater systems.>> I am still in the planning stage and
trying to look ahead to any problems. I had a juv. Emperor for
about a year and a half before he ended up dying. I just
didn't have the time to take care of him or the tank properly
and he suffered for it. I ended up having to euthanize him. I
gave my other fishes away to a friend. It sucks, but it happens.
I have to say that he really was an endearing fish and that I
would really like to try again. In this sized tank, just how long
would one last (assuming everything goes well and he does well in
captivity) starting from a 2-3" juv. specimen? If it is a
few years, then I will go for it. <I really don't think it
would be that long. Maybe a year or two, if that. Although these
fishes do not grow super fast, they can grow quicker than we
might like, and do need correspondingly large quarters as they
grow. I do not subscribe to the theory that "they will grow
to the size of their aquariums."> <<If a year or
two is what I am looking at, I think I will go for it.>>
Or, are there really any large angels that would be ok in that
system for the long haul? Some say an Emperor can last for the
long haul, some disagree. <Last, sure. Thrive? It depends,
really, on what your definition of "thriving" is. I am
probably a bit too biased, but I'm skeptical of their
long-term viability in anything less than aquariums of hundreds
of gallons of volume.> <<"Last" wasn't the
best choice of words as you pointed out. I guess what I was going
for would be more to succeed in keeping the fish healthy and
disease free. At least as far as keeping captive fishes go
anyway. I don't know how anyone or anything could truly
thrive in captivity.>> I am also considering a Blue Angel
(H. bermudensis) or a Blue-Ringed Angel (P. Annularis). Or would
it be different species, same problem? Maybe I would be better
with just 2 dwarf angels. <I would definitely consider the
Dwarf Angel pair or trio instead.> I am not looking more than
a few years into the future regarding keeping the fishes as I
have learned a lot can happen before you know it and keeping
fishes may not fit into your life. We all plan/hope for the best
when starting out new endeavors, but I know it doesn't always
work out that way. <Absolutely. I'm glad you feel this
way.> <<16 months is a long time to have a bunch of
stuff in the garage... LOL>> But at the same time, I
believe if someone is to do something, then he/she should do it
right or at least to the best of his/her abilities. Who knows, I
could have the means (and space) to get a 1,000G system in a few
years. If it turns out the fish outgrows the tank, I will act in
the best interest of the fish. I will either donate it, trade it
or upgrade to a bigger tank. I will cross that bridge when/if I
get there. <Yes...and best not to assume that you will have
such a system available in the future.> <<I have already
learned that lesson the hard way. That and a QT isn't a good
recommendation, but a must have... We all start somewhere I
guess.>> I would really like to try my hand again at an
Achilles Tang, but maybe that one is just better left in the
ocean. The last one I had I thought would be the 1 out of 10 that
would make it. Seemed well adjusted socially/mentally and readily
accepted food, put my Blue Hippo to shame as far as wolfing down
food goes... Bob and I exchanged a few emails and he suggested
Spectrum. The fish just turned his nose at it. Every fish has its
own taste I guess. Everything seemed to be going great and one
day I go to turn the light on and the fish is as dead as dead can
be. From what I have been reading the last few months, I am not
alone in this experience. I guess that is what "just not
well suited for captivity" means. <Perhaps!> It seems
that the Gold Rim Tang (A. Nigricans) is a better choice. But how
much better is it really? I also read that it really isn't
much easier than the Achilles Tang. Am I going from "darn
near impossible" to "likely impossible" with the
Gold Rim? Some say the Gold Rim is under the "moderate"
level of care. I don't know why, but those two just appeal to
me more than any other. <I'd be doing a disservice to you
if I said it was an easy fish to keep. However, it is not
impossible. Many criteria come into play when considering keeping
such a fish (i.e.; the source, handling, etc. of the fish before it
arrives at your LFS).> <<I have another question/issue
here. I don't like to put people on the spot on a public
page, but Live Aquaria advertises that they quarantine and house
certain difficult species in their own facility before they offer
them for sale. Assuming this is true, this seems like the odds
are more tipped in favor of the aquarist here instead of going
the usual LFS route. Obviously, we should still put the fish in
our own QT when arriving, but it would seem like the fishes would
be more suited/adjusted to captivity this way and not still going
through the shock/stress of the transport from ocean to LFS. Any
thoughts?>> <More suited to captivity, perhaps. Of
course, there are still issues related to the shipping and
handling of the animals before they reach you. You hit it on the
head when you suggest the need to quarantine regardless. And
yes-Live Aquaria has a terrific reputation for quality and
selection. I would not hesitate to order from them.> Basically
what I am looking at is this: (all of them would be considered
small/juv. {2-3" when purchased}) One large angel (in juv.
form of the variety listed above, although most likely Emperor)
One Flame Angel One Blue Hippo Tang A pair of clowns (either
Maroon or Percula) Maybe one Achilles or Gold Rim Maybe a
Butterfly (I wish the Ornate was on the good list) I don't
think that sounds overstocked, what do you guys think? Any
thoughts or opinions are welcome even if not what I want to hear.
<Well, you asked. To be honest, I believe that this is too
much bioload for this system. You really need to pare down the
stocking list to only one of the two larger Tangs (either the
Hippo or the Gold Rim).> <<Fair enough. I do know that
Tangs are hard on the bio-filter. Honestly, I think my filtration
setup should be able to handle it. It looks like more reading in
order here.>> <You sound like a very conscientious
aquarist. I have no doubts that you will enjoy much success!>
Trust me; I don't want to be that guy who stuffed 25+ angels
into a 250G tank. That article was insane. <Yep!> Best
Wishes to you all, Jeremy <Well, Jeremy, I think you hit it on
the head. Responsible stocking involves taking into account a
multitude of factors, many of which you have already addressed.
Go with your gut feelings and your fish will benefit! Good luck!
Regards, Scott F.> <<Thanks for your time and candor
Scott. I still have a lot of reading to do. No decisions just
yet, with the exception of trying a large angel.>>
<Enjoy the journey, and feel free to drop us a line again any
time. Scott F.>
|
Can I Add An Angelfish?
1/19/08 Hello again, Crew. Thanks as always for the great advice.
I'm looking to add a "showpiece" fish to my existing
fish-only tank (250g, no live rock). The tank has been up and running
for about 3 years. Current stock are a Sailfin Tang, Porcupine Puffer,
Squirrelfish, blue jaw Trigger, Dog Face Puffer and a male/female pair
of Bird Wrasses. I make weekly water changes and keep the water quality
good. Everyday, I feed frozen krill, silversides, and a cube of thawed
Mysis or brine shrimp, all soaked in Selcon. I also hand-feed the
Sailfin Tang a big pinch of Spirulina (which is also enjoyed by the
wrasses and the trigger). I'm considering adding an Angelfish to
the group. My research on heartiness and compatibility has narrowed the
choices down to a Koran, French or Queen Angelfish. <All good
choices> I'd appreciate your advice on whether these species are
likely to be successful in my tank and if so, whether one of these
three is a better choice in this situation. Would you recommend a
different species? <Mmm, not necessarily> If I add an Angelfish,
should I put a piece of live rock into the tank from time to time as an
extra source of grazing food for the Angelfish and the Sailfin Tang?
<I would definitely add a "box" or two of re-cured (by
yourself, outside the system) live rock here... for several good
reasons... And am inclined toward the Koran (would be my first choice,
staying smaller) or French over the Queen (may become too
dominant)...> Thank you very much. Michael <Welcome. Bob
Fenner>
Chaetodontoplus septentrionalis in a captive
reef? Gambling With Corals (Risking A Large Angelfish With
Invertebrates)? 1/16/08 Hey guys and gals: <Scott F.
your guy tonight!> Simple question. Is Chaetodontoplus
septentrionalis an angel that can be placed in a captive reef
aquarium (90G) without being too destructive? < I guess
it's all relative..."Destructive" to some reef
people is the loss of one polyp of coral. Yes- fishes in this
genus will nip at all sorts of sessile invertebrates. It's
rather uncommon in the U.S. trade, seeing how it has a rather
limited distribution (mainly Southeast Asia and Japan). If you
have a source and are up to keeping this beautiful fish, the risk
may be worth it! My main concern is the size of the fish. This
species can and will hit around 10 inches, and a 90 gallon
aquarium is simply not large enough to house this species for
anything close to a normal life span, IMO. You really will need
an aquarium that is six feet or greater in length (preferably 8
feet), as they roam over large areas of reef in nature, and they
do like caves and crevices to hide in.> I have a few LPS
corals and a few softies (no SPS) and I'm willing to tempt
fate on one of my favorite fish of all time if it could possibly
be kept without tearing everything up. <A total dice roll, my
friend!> If the fish is well-fed enough (3 times daily with
New Life Spectrum pellets along with frozen foods -- all soaked
in Selcon), could it be somewhat trusted not to be a holy terror
to corals? I was thinking about keeping a clam, but I
wouldn't trust a large angel with a clam since I've seen
first hand one getting nibbled to death in the past and I'd
much rather have a huge want of mine in the septentrionalis if at
all possible. <Again- there is no guarantee. Even fishes with
a "reputation" for NOT munching on corals can turn on
them. Like people, fish are individuals, and we cannot expect
them to conform to our behavioral expectations.> It's
either that, or I was thinking of going with a Pomacanthus
annularis which is my distant 2nd choice (but another gorgeous
fish to say the least) which I've read in the FAQ's is
one of the 3 large marine angels Bob would tempt fate with in a
reef environment.- Jon <Well, Jon, I have seen the P.
annularis in reef systems. Again, it's a gamble, but it's
up to the hobbyist to decide his/her threshold. A more pressing
concern is the HUGE size that this fish can attain (like 15 to 18
inches), and its need for correspondingly huge quarters! Keeping
one of these fish in anything less than an aquarium of hundreds
of gallons is cruel and unusual, in my opinion. My advice to you,
my risk-taking friend: Try fishes better suited to the quarters
that you can provide, such as a rare Centropyge species (try
pricing a C. hotumatua or C. joculator if you want sexy and
expensive!), which are just as challenging (and potentially
destructive to reef invertebrates), but generally max out at 4
inches or less. Regardless of what route you take, there are
tradeoffs that you must make, so be prepared and go for it based
on what is best for you and your animals. Good luck! Regards,
Scott F.> Jonathan Philpot
Re: Chaetodontoplus septentrionalis in a captive reef? Big
Angels- Little Angels! 1/17/08 Thanks for the quick response,
Scott. <MY pleasure! Didn't want to be a "buzz
kill", but I just felt that I needed to highlight a few
things.> Question in regards to P. annularis -- on the WWM
site it's listed as a max-out of 8 inches or so in captivity
and I must say that I've never seen one anywhere near the
size you gave me (the 15-18 inches). The two older specimens
I've seen (one around 6 or so years old in the LFS display
tank of around 600 gallons and another in a 125 gallon tank
belonging to a friend of mine) have both been roughly the 8
inches listed from what I've been able to tell. <I must be
honest with you- I have seen at least 3 specimens of this species
well over 12 inches, and one that was darned close to a foot and
a half. I'm going to render advice based on what I have seen.
Sure, they may not all reach that size, but the potential does
exist...And you can't ignore that, IMO.> But I've seen
the fish listed anywhere from 8 inches to 12 inches and now you
mention possibly a foot and a half as well. A bit confusing (and
trust me, I'm not doubting you -- just confused by my own
witness of the fish and by the multitude of length listings out
there in both print and online). I've also seen so many
different tank size suggestions which really makes it a bit
frustrating since I've had the possibility to attain a few
nice specimens at a reasonable price but passed because I've
been so confused! <I totally agree! It is confusing. I can
only speak from my experiences/observations. They can and do get
quite large. Always take any advice you find-mine or anyone
else's-with a grain of salt. In the end, you need to gather
your information for yourself, from sources you know and from
personal observations, and temper your decision with a healthy
dose of skepticism. In the end, go with what your observations
tell you. However, always think of the "end game" with
large fishes. They need such large quarters to live healthy,
happy lives.> I'll probably pass on both large angels
until I can make a move to a larger aquarium in the future and
stick with the Centropyge angels that I've had success with
in the past. <I commend you on this decision. If you can house
these fishes successfully (and I have no doubt that you can), you
will enjoy much success, and the fishes will enjoy longer,
happier lives!> I do a lot of "trading" of fish with
a few fellow aquarists I know and trust so I've had quite a
few species of fish over the years and have kept my tanks pretty
varied. <Cool!> Thanks for the response, again, though.
I'll likely give the Centropyge potteri another go since I
did have success in my first go-around until my tank crashed in a
very rare power outage. Though I'd love to find the
blue/black variant of it since it is a truly magnificent
coloration in my opinion (not that the normal coloration
isn't magnificent). - Jon <I hope you have every success,
Jon! I have seen a blue morph of the C. potteri in a store in
Chicago, and it was awesome! Probably a temporary aberration, but
what a beauty! Take care! Regards, Scott F.>
|
Angel fish for the
aquarium 01/06/2008 <<Hello Jody, Andrew
here>> After being in the fish hobby for more than five years
(and learning many hard lessons) my parents have given me for Christmas
your great book The Conscientious Marine Aquarist--(which I asked for)
albeit the older version from 1998 <<still a great book>>
(the new one retails for over $150). <Good gosh... wait, the new
edition hasn't been release as yet. RMF> From the info in
that book and wet web media I have not concluded if I have the means
(space) for any type of angel fish. I have always been afraid to
attempt keeping an angel because of their high price and reputed
difficulty in keeping. What do you think? <<Angel fish do require
a little aquarium experience before adding>> I have a 60 gallon
FOWLER:1 med Porcupine puffer <<this will outgrow your current
tank, recommend 90+ gallons>> , 1 med Lunare wrasse who is fairly
nice, 1 med Foxface Lo, 1 med Fuzzy dwarf lionfish and 1 med common
clownfish. <<I would say that your close on your stocking limits
as you currently stand at the moment>> I have read recently that
Flame angels and Coral beauties are difficult in non-reef tanks. I
realize you probably get hundreds of E-mails a day so any response
would be greatly appreciated. <<Questions are always good, as
this says that your conscious about your aquarium>> Thanks, Jody
Goens <<Thank you for the questions, regards, A
Nixon>>
Adult passer angelfish, shipping
trauma. 12/15/2007 <Very common... specimens more than about
4" total length don't "ship well"> I recently
received a large adult passer angelfish from a mail order fish store
which shall remain nameless since they have been nice about this. The
fish arrived in terrible condition, dazed and confused and in ~65
degree water that was loaded with waste. I've had it in my 175
gallon tank for a day now and not surprisingly it won't eat and it
is very sluggish though mobile, taking laps around the tank
occasionally. <The last behavior leads me to have hope...> I
wonder if any of you know what types of stress tropical marine fish can
take and what the prognosis for such a fish is and what I can do to
maximize chances of keeping it alive and even better acting like the
bold, curious fish it is supposed to be. It really is very sad seeing
such a beautiful fish like this fall apart. Thanks, Omar. <I'd
keep the lights off to low... if you have to for other livestock... and
not be overly concerned if the fish doesn't feed, do much of
anything for a few days. Again, the swimming about behavior is a good
sign. Bob Fenner, who did collect this and other "key" (i.e.
expensive) species al sur off and on for decades.>
Compatibility question, SW angel
comp. Hello WWM crew. I most first say I love your site and have
been reading for some time now, but have never asked a question. I know
this a common question/interest of many salt water hobbyist, but have
gotten some conflicting information and would like to get a specific
answers to my setup. I have a 250 gallon setup well maintained (by me)
w/all proper filtration a plenty of hiding places (big hiding places
and small). Also it is lightly stocked w/ no angels. I would like to
add a queen angel and a emperor angel. I'm thinking I would get the
queen first at a small medium size letting him get well? settled in
then purchasing the emperor larger then the queen.? Do you think this
could work? Is there a better way to introducing both these fish? or
Should this? not be attempted at all??? Thank you in advance Peter.
<Is a possibility... I'll give you even odds here that these
disparate species will get along... This would not be my choice of
angels to mix... Better to seek out species whose geographic range
overlaps, that have a natural pecking order/dominance. Bob Fenner>
Large Angelfish et. al sel. and
crowding - 10/30/2007 I have a 375 gallon tank and
would like to keep multiple angelfish. I understand that large
tanks and good water quality are a requirement in keeping these
fish successfully. I would like to know if my tank size is big
enough to house multiple angelfish. <It is... in fact, better
to purposely overcrowd Pomacanthids in such a system... Have seen
this done on many occasions... One large East coast service
company built their business on such stocking> The only fish
that is housed in my tank is a gold spotted Rabbitfish who is
doing well, but tends to be on the shy side. <Is their
nature> The current list I am developing consists of the
following fish: Golden Butterfly <A schooling species...
I'd have more than one> Scribbled angelfish Majestic
angelfish Emperor angelfish Flame angelfish Flameback or Cherub
angelfish Blonde Naso Tang Is this a realistic list? If not, what
would fish would you drop? <Could be done... the Majestic
you'll want to especially be sure is healthy, feeding> I
assume the emperor angel and Naso tang are the last fish to be
added due to their bully nature (?) <Yes, this would be my
choice as well> Appreciate any suggestions you may have.
Thanks <Should be a nice display Kirk. Bob
Fenner>
Re: Large Angelfish et.al sel. Bob,
<Kirk> After doing some more research and readings from you
(WetWebMedia and Conscientious Marine Aquarist book), I am
thinking about adding a Queen angelfish to the list of angels.
Does this angel fit into my existing angel list (majestic,
scribbled, emperor, flame, and cherub) I plan on keeping?
<Could, yes> Or is this pushing it? <Well, the smaller,
last two species, may have a tough time of getting enough food
here... but the crowding will likely be fine> If it is
possible, should this be placed in the tank before or after the
majestic? <I would place the Queen last... is on average, the
most aggressive of the species listed... and does make a
difference, though coming from the Atlantic...> On a separate
note, I have placed a order for a pair of Golden butterflies from
a LFS. It may be till the end of the month until another Red Sea
order comes in. Thanks for your advice. Kirk <Welcome.
BobF>
Re: Large Angelfish et.al Bob, <That
gentleman named Kirk> Wow. I would have never thought the
Queen was more aggressive than the Emperor. <On average,
very> Should I request a certain region that the Queen come
from? Or is the Atlantic the only place that it is collected.
<... only is found in the TWA...> I am glad I sent a reply
to you. Thank you. <Welcome> After 10yrs in the hobby I
still learn something new; This is why I love this hobby so much.
Kirk <Even longer stint, and I feel the same. Cheers,
BobF>
|
Chrysurus Angel Sick, sel. - 10/18/07
Hi Crew I need help again please. I bought chrysurus angel about
a month ago. He's been great eating well chasing my clown
here and there and what have you. The last week his side fins are
turning white cloudy and inflamed at the base <Not good>
and now he's hiding alot. <No such word> I don't
see any signs of Ich or velvet. He did eat 5 minutes ago.
He's a big fish 8 inches <Too large to start... a big part
of the issue here...> in a 220 gallon tank with few tankmates.
1 clown and a damsel and a Coris wrasse. They all have no
interest in him. I paid a lot of money for him and it is my dream
fish. Was hard to find. Am not sure how to treat and was going to
let it run its course but seems a little worse everyday. He does
rub on the rocks here and there and also another thing he has
like seizures? Like twitching. His body looks good otherwise. I
have done searches on your site and have read the angel section
but cant quit find what's wrong. Any help or thoughts would
be so much appreciated. Thanks In Advance. <Do you know the
origin (country) of this fish? As stated, for the genus and
species, this specimen should have been left in the ocean... too
difficult to ship, adapt at this age, size... What you are seeing
is likely "just" resultant from capture, handling...
Hopefully this fish will recover on its own here. No treatment is
advised but good care. Bob Fenner>
Re: chrysurus Angel Sick 10/19/07
Thanks for the fast response. I'm not sure of the area he was
collected from but I thought they only came from off the Kenya
coast? He is gorgeous otherwise. He was at the fish store for
about 2 months and I guess nobody wanted to spend 160.00 on him
<Likely the "freight" for this specimen was more
than half this...> but from what I have seen I thought was a
bargain. He was great at the fish store and stooped there 4 times
in 2 months and always ate and looked great. The only difference
is my SG is 1.20-1.21 while there's is kept at 1.15-1.16.
<Both too low> Said they use that for parasite control.
<Mmm, yes, and to save on salt mix, allow for greater/easier
gas diffusion...> I have already taken your advice and will
let run its course. He is still eating great and I have increased
my water changes to twice a week and not sure what else I can do.
My wife is waiting in the background to say I told you not to
spend so much on a fish. How long should I wait to take any
action do you think? <What action?> It does not effect any
other fins. His color is great also. I will try to get a good pic
to you today if I can. Do you think its fungal or a bacterial
thing? Any knowledge you will share is always appreciated. <I
think it's an "environmental thing" mostly... I
would raise the spg, check and assure "reef" type
conditions... BobF>
Re: chrysurus Angel Sick 10/20/07 The
action I mean is if it gets worse under ideal water conditions
which are pretty good now? 0 nitrites 0 ammonia 5-10 nitrates 8.2
PH, not sure if I should treat for fungus or bacterial?
<...> I think its bacterial. I noticed today after looking
close that when he opens his pectoral fins it looks white on his
body where the fins lay against. Not sure if that was there but
I'm afraid it will spread. Thanks Again <... Please
read... on WWM re infectious disease and marine fishes. B>
Re: chrysurus Angel Sick - 10/20/07 I did
read through tons of your site as I stated it still left me
somewhat unsure. I'm sure its bacterial or fungus but with
the blood spots I would have to lean towards bacterial. I started
treatment today with API triple sulfa <... had you read... you
would NOT be doing this> in a QT tank and will let you know
how it works out. If I read to much more to much time will pass
and so will my fish. Thanks <I understand... but isolating
this fish, leaving it in a quarantine or treatment tank will not
get you toward improving its health. As stated, only time, good
care will possibly resolve the white rings around the pectoral
fins... NOT an infectious issue... Bob Fenner>
Re: chrysurus Angel Sick - 10/21/07 Yes I
understand but its getting worse everyday and today there's
blood showing but he still ate but not with the vigor he once
did. <Yes... but this has little to do with a treatable
state/infection...> Didn't want to take a chance and I
guess I'm desperate and just want to give him a chance.
<...> Even though I did get a deal on him its still a ton a
money to me. Plus its the 1st one I have seen at a LFS and I have
a ton around me in the Tampa FL area. <Still an
inappropriate/too large specimen...> While I was browsing your
site I read on one of the questions that the Meg <...?
Mag?> pumps are over rated on there gallon per hour. Reason
I'm asking is I want to improve the water quality as much as
I can like you stated and I was looking over my hole system and
never really knew what my little giant pumped per GPH so I looked
it up. I was surprised to see it pumped only 500 GPH @ 1ft head
height. Well overflows are 1200 gallon per hour so I was thinking
about getting a Mag 12 or 18. I don't want the 18 to pump so
much my sump goes dry because the overflows cant keep up. I have
been using the little giant for some time now and have been happy
but I want to get the most out of it. <... please see WWM re
pump selection. Please look before writing...> I also went and
bought a refractometer and was surprised to see how far off my
swing arm hydrometer was off. I'm very devoted to my fish and
hobby and your site is so helpful I even tell the guys at the LFS
about it. So much info you go in there for one thing and get tied
up with a ton of different things. If I can get him to pull
through I'm going to try a DSB I stumbled upon your site for
nitrate control. Thank You Again <A shame we did not chat
before your purchasing this specimen. Is the source willing to
take it back? There is little chance of it adapting to captive
conditions... BobF>
|
Good lesson...? Angel
sel. 9/2/07 I recently lost some nice fish to a
parasite, so know i just invested in a full quarantine setup. anyways
will be starting to restock a 75 gallon fish only with live rock and a
refugium, and skimmer. I would like to add some of my favorite fish in
this tank, they are C. argi, c. potters, flame angel, Flagfin angel,
and the golden angel, I realize they cannot all go in this size tank so
which is the best for this setup, and is it possible to mix any if
there added at the same time. there is also an anemone in this tank,
<What species? Could be trouble...> other possible fish mates are
a pair of clowns, a yellow tang, and a small wrasse, thanks Ron.
<Likely so. I'd try the Little TWA Angel and the Flame...
Potter's and Flagfins are way too touchy and Goldens need much more
room than this... All this could be surmised by perusing WWM.
RMF>
Please help me select two angelfish for two
separate tanks 8/23/07 Dear Bob and friends, Thank you for
all your previous answers. I really appreciate it very much.
<Welcome> I have two identical 170 gallon tanks. I wish to house
only one large angelfish and a two tangs in each of the tanks. Could
you help me chose two angelfish so I could house them in separate
tanks. <Mmm, maybe> I have six in mind but I am having difficulty
choosing because they all seems so hardy and beautiful. I was thinking
of 1. Holocanthus ciliaris (Queen Angelfish), 2. Pomacanthus Imperator
(Emperor Angelfish), 3. Arusetta Asfur (Asfur Angelfish), 4.
Pomacanthus Annularis (Blue ring angelfish), 5. Holocanthus Passer
(King Passer) and lastly Pomacanthus Maculosus (Yellow bar angelfish).
Please help me make a decision. Thank you and I will be awaiting for
your reply. Thank you so much for your help. <All gorgeous
animals... and all would/will eventually outgrow this volume/size
system... I am esp. particular with the subgenus Arusetta... and the
Annularis is a fave for being good-looking and rather peaceful...
BobF>
Large Angel, sel. 4/22/07 Hello everyone
<Matt> I been wanting to get a large angel for awhile and not to
sure on which would be best for my system. I have a 200 gal that's
2'W X 2'H x 7'L. 120lb+ of LR, 40 gal refugium, Coralife
Needle Wheel Skimmer rated for a 220 gal, and 3 XP3's. I have a
16" Panther Grouper, 5" Foxface Lo, 8" Spiny box Puffer,
and a 4" Sargassum Angler & very peaceful. I really wanted a
Queen angel but after reading your site I see that's not a good
idea. And Dwarfs stay too small and might end up as lunch. Maybe a
Koran or a Blueface? <The former is a far better choice... much more
likely to live> I didn't see to much about the Blueface <I
lumped this species with its two subcongeners (the subgenus
Euxiphipops) as they're all about the same in terms of use,
husbandry. Please read here: http://wetwebmedia.com/marine/fishes/angels/pomacanthus/euxiphipops.htm
and the linked files above.> but I did read some about the Koran.
And I been eyeballing LiveAquaria and they have had a large adult Koran
that's 5" to 7" for $130 over a month now,
plus they have had a 8"in there Divers Den section for awhile too.
I know you should get one around 4" but my LFS wants doesn't
guarantee there SW fish and LiveAquaria has a great one. Any advice
would be great! Thanks Matt Owens <Mmmm.... well... your tank is
going to be very full... and by and large it is better to pick a
sub-adult Pomacanthid... Bob Fenner>
Angels - Personifer,
Chrysurus, Annularis 11/22/06 Hi Crew - <Bret> I am
trying to do some research on the above mentioned angels. I
have a very lightly stocked 135G reef tank that needs a centerpiece
fish with some personality. <Mmm, well any of these three will
outgrow this volume... first psychologically...> The
tank has been up for several years and is very stable, it currently
houses a selection of soft and LPS corals, a large clam, a rose BTA
<These angels consume anemones in the wild... possibly soft and
stony coral polyps...> and a few small fish. The tank is
heavily circulated and skimmed with an oversized LifeReef sump
setup. I understand the risks to LPS corals, clam and
anemone, and am willing to move them out to my other tank for the right
fish. If one of these angels would work I would simply
accept the tank as a live rock
and-whatever-the-angel-doesn't-eat-tank. <All three
species are rated for historical survivability on WWM... Please read
there. Bob Fenner> My problem is I can't find a lot of specific
information on these particular species. I'd like to get
the fish small and let him grow out in the tank. I know 135G
isn't big for an angel which is why I'm "trying" to
target some of the smaller members of the family. The only
tank mates are a pair of ocellaris clowns, a royal Gramma and a 2"
Hawkfish. Can you comment on the suitability of any of these
fish for my setup? I have no interest in buying a fish that
will require a bigger tank. I'd love to expand, but it
isn't very realistic. My main concerns are tank size
requirements and adaptability to an aquarium
environment. Thanks in advance for your advice. Bret M.
Packard <<Yikes... didn't see this part.
RMF>>
Livestock Choices - 10/9/06
I'm about six months into a 240 marine tank and have stocked it
with a Purple and Yellow Tang, a Coral Beauty, two small tank raised
Maroon Clowns, half a dozen blue and green Chromis, two Neon Damsels,
two Fairy Wrasse, a Pseudochromis, two Neon Gobies, two small tank
raised Queen Conks, a couple of Electric Blue Crabs. I have a tank
raised juvenile Mac Angel on request at the LFS, and was told they
should have some in a couple of months. Don't plan to purchase any
more fish, long term plans are to settle in and enjoy. <I would not
recommend adding a Maculosus with your current stocking list. Your mix
of peaceful and aggressive fish may be pushed too far with the addition
of a huge bully like the Mac. If you really want a Mac you may consider
trading in the fairy wrasses and Chromis.> Aggression is very
limited, fish wise. <For now. You have some fish that tend to grow
up into bullies.> One of the Clownfish bites my hand whenever I
change the lettuce or seaweed. After feeding Sharks, Rays and Eels in
the wild without a nibble, it's strange to be attacked by one of my
own fish! Per advice of Wet Web, I purchased some live rock for the
Coral Beauty to graze on, and took out some of the 'dead' rock.
<If by "dead" you mean base rock then leave it in the
tank. With the addition of live rock your base rock will eventually
become 'live' and beneficial.> I was horrified to read that
Dwarf Angels don't live as long in a fish only as they do in a reef
system. I immediately changed the GE natural lights to ones that are
supposed to bring out algae and other beneficial things in the live
rock. I also converted the tank to RO water, and am very pleased with
the results. Water is crystal clear, perfect PH, with a 30 gallon
change and lots of fresh charcoal every two weeks. The chiller keeps
the temp at a solid 78 degrees. I threw away that cheap plastic
hydrometer, and bought a decent one. Fish health is very good. They are
fed three times a day, with Selcon and vitamins mixed in for one
feeding. I plan to purchase a quality skimmer, other than that, is
there anything else to insure keeping the fish healthy for the long
term? <Are you currently running a skimmer? Research and then
purchase the best skimmer you can afford. 30 gallon water changes
weekly would also be a great idea. Skimming and water changes can be a
key to success with any tank, but even more so with fish only tanks.
It's good to see your ph and temp are well regulated. I'd also
suggest skipping the lettuce and sticking with seaweed/Nori soaked in
Selcon.> Plans for a small reef tank, around 45 gallons, are in the
works, to enjoy the reef between dives. :) <Your fish list in its
current form is reef safe. You could always turn the 240 into your reef
tank <G>.> Best, <Best of luck to you. Continue educating
yourself and I am certain you will meet with success! - Emerson>
Teresa
Re: Less Problematic Large Angel In SPS
Dominated Reefs 9/4/06 James at al., Thanks for your
reply. Trying to obtain all the info I can get on this issue before I
decide, I've been re-reading your "angel compatibility
FAQ", and noticed one of your crew answers that, somehow, I missed
before. When asked the top three large angels he'd
choose for a reef, on a "blind decision", Bob Fenner
answered: "<Okay... Pomacanthus annularis, Genicanthus species
of any kind you like, Chaetodontoplus mesoleucos... my choices. Bob
Fenner>. The Genicanthus spp. is easy to understand, but I've
been wondering why the P. annularis. Specially in number one. Is it
because of a specific diet or behaviour that is distinct from the other
Pomacanthus? <I don't believe that Bob recommended these fish as
"safe" reef dwellers, just the ones he would choose
"if" he had to make a choice. <<Yes. RMF>> The annularis will
nip at base of sessile invertebrates including corals. They
are also known to pick/nip on Tridacnid clams.> I did not consider
the P. Annularis before, because I had the impression it would be
similar to the P. Imperator (which I prefer) as regards its "reef
safeness", but this statement made me look at it with new eyes...
And if the Annularis is less "Russian roulette" than the ones
I've been considering, I may opt for it. <If you MUST have an
angel, I would go with Bob's suggestions keeping in mind that none
are totally safe.> Regards, <And to you. James (Salty
Dog)> Jo?
Angelfish choice
8/8/06 Hey guys, <And ladies> Well further to some in depth
discussions with Eric about angelfishes and butterfly fishes a few
weeks back, I have now come to a conclusion (I was previously very
undecided). I definitely want to get a large type angel as the centre
piece fish (holocanthus or Pomacanthus). Really the tank is going to be
all about the angelfish, and everything else will have to be arranged
to suit than animal, including type of set up and tank mates. <Good
approach> To that end, I am trying to decide on which species of
angel to go for: 1. Queen Angel (H. ciliaris)
2. Maculosus angel (P. maculosus)
3. Emperor Angel (P. imperator)
4. Navarchus Angel (P. navarchus) While the
navarchus is the smallest, it is probably also the most delicate. I
have had an emperor before, and would be like to try something
different. That draws me to the other two - the Mac and the queen. Of
the two, which is most likely to be the better long term choice?
<The former... tank bred availability, much easier going
personality... Just needs a good deal of space...> The tank will
probably be my existing 180 (which is currently in storage, dried out,
while renovating my house). <Will need something bigger... like a
300...> Tank mates will probably be a nice tang (powder blue maybe,
purple tang..... nothing huge like a Naso tang), along with a dwarf
angel (probably flame angel), a couple of gobies (probably pair of
yellow watchman) and a shoal of Chromis. The angel will be last to be
added. I was thinking of adding a 5 or 6" young adult (adult
colours) rather than a small juvenile. <Better to start at 3-4"
overall length> How quickly is an angel of this size likely to grow,
and how big is he likely to get. Like everyone, I would love the animal
to grow to full wild sizes - but in reality I think this rarely
happens. Thanks for your input. Regards, Matt <Please read here:
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/marine/fishes/angels/pomacanthus/maculosus.htm
and the files linked above. Bob Fenner>
Blue line angel... sel...
Ignorance 7/28/06 Hello, I live in corpus Christi and I
went to Houston and bought a Big BLUE LINE ANGEL. <Best not to buy
"big"...> She has developed cloudy eyes and will not eat
and stays up in the corner of the tank and she shakes every now and
then. She also floats on one side. I think I am going to loose her.
<And likely lose this fish as well> She has not eaten anything.
<...> I have stayed up with her one night all night just to see
if she would eat when the lights were off but nothing. <?
Pomacanthids don't eat at night...> Please help me. Also I
wanted to know if a fish had a bacterial infection <What?...> if
it rubbed on another fish would that fish get sick and die also?
<Where do folks get such notions? How can people get by with such
ignorance of simple biology? Physics, chemistry? Do my fellow citizens
know more about Oprah than reality?> Thanks, Kim <Where to start
here? Have you read our archives on Marine Angels? Selection, Disease?
What did you think re buying a "big" specimen? Please read
what is posted. RMF>
Genicanthus personatus
3/17/06 Dear Crew, <Lawrence> Couple of questions
here. 1. Does the G. personatus do well in captivity? <I
wouldn't recommend it. They are a deeper/cooler water
fish.> 2. Where can I go (online) to purchase this angel
fish? <Think you will have a difficult time
finding. Do a Google search.> I understand that they are
rare and come from Hawaii. <Yes.> If they are too hard to come
by, my next choice would be an Emperor angel. I do have a
reef tank loaded with Xenia, Gorgonia, green star polyps, Zoanthids,
mushrooms (green hairy, purple and red) colt coral, pagoda, galaxy and
a handful of sps coral. I've read where the Genicanthus angels are
the safest and the emperor is somewhat safe but will nip at some of the
coral mentioned above. I'm very nervous about putting the emperor
in, but have heard success stories as well, unless they were
delusions. <Wouldn't do this with corals present,
especially if the angel is adult size.> I have a collection of tangs
(4 yellow, 1 purple, 1 unicorn, 1 Sailfin and 2 regal blues) that the
fish will be introduced to. There should be plenty of space (500
gallons). 3. What would you do if you had to have an angel
fish? <Remove the coral.> thanks for your
help...<You're welcome. James (Salty Dog)>
Lawrence
Queen angel selection and age - 03/11/2006 Hi Bob
I want to purchase a medium queen angel , about 3- 5"
as recommended. My LFS has one that's about 3-3
1/2" with its juve coloration almost gone. I
was debating whether to buy it or hold out for a bigger one. Is there
any difference in terms of acclimating to a home aquarium between
3" or 5" angel? <The three inchers are much better...>
Which one would you recommend? Also, approximately how old
is a queen at 3" <Under a year...> and what is their growth
rate in captivity? <Mmm, five, six inches in two
years... six, seven in three...> Currently I have a
125tank and I'm getting a 265(7ft x 2ft) early next year. <Will
need this. Cheers, Bob Fenner>
Cyano and Show Angels 11/02/05
Hey Ali, Thanks for your reply Ali...always informative and very
helpful. It's always good to hear from you. <You too
Steve...> Follow up question for you or any of the other gurus at
WWM: I have two large SEIO power heads, of which one of them was moved
to flow over the section of substrate where the Red Cyano is forming
without much improvement. I physically remove the Cyano, but within a
few days it comes back. I feed daily, and give just enough for them to
consume quickly without settling out, then give a little more, until
they have all received some food. The Rabbitfish is a "pig"
(as you said he would be), so I have to sometimes trick him away so the
others can eat. Also, I give a small piece (3" x 3") of Nori
each day for grazing. Do you think I should go to every other day
with either of these? Every place that sells fish recommends feeding
multiple times daily, so I considered my feeding practice less than
that. I have chatted with other hobbyists and many indicate that the
daily recommended feeding schedule is "hogwash" and that the
fish should only be fed 3 - 4 times per week. I can tell you that since
each fish have arrived, within a short period of time they gain girth
and look very healthy. With the Cyano however, I wonder if I
should cut back? <Steven, how often are you doing your water
changes? Siphon out as much of this gunk each time you do change your
water. I believe you have a fish-only with live rock aquarium, correct?
If so, what is your photoperiod? Do a large water change, siphoning out
as much Cyano as possible. Then simply turning your lights completely
off for 3 days. Afterwards, cutting your photoperiod back to 2 to 3
hours per day for 2 to 3 weeks. I'm not sure how your current
system is plumbed but consider once again increasing water circulation.
Regarding the water changes, it goes without saying that RO/DI water is
a must; however check your TDS as you may have old filter cartridges.
Sometimes the cartridges can wear out in just a couple months depending
on your tap water quality. It may also be time to change your membrane
as well. Additionally, make sure you use a high-quality salt mix. This
Tropic Marin Pro-Reef salt is just phenomenal and I would look into
that further as well.> Last question: I am looking at adding a
spectacular Angel. Considering the following: Pomacanthus Chrysurus,
Gold Flake Angel, and last but certainly not least a Conspicillatus.
What is your feeling on these with regards to quality of fish after
transport, transition to captivity, and hardiness? <All three can be
incredibly hardy once adjusted. The P. chrysurus being the easiest to
acclimate to captive life. Small/Medium sized Conspics do great, where
as the larger full-blown adults have a much harder time adjusting. If
you do purchase this fish, make it a point with your dealer to provide
you with the smallest one possible. Over the years however, the
smallest Conspic I've ever seen come through L.A. was a little over
3inches. Smaller ones also do tend to fetch a higher price than the
larger ones, but well worth it if you can locate one. Goldflakes are
generally a hardy fish as well. Most tend to adapt quite easily to
captive life. I know several people who have tried them and from I
know, everything has been going smoothly so far.> I would like to
get a large "show" fish, however it appears that the more
common found for sell is a medium size at best. Would the medium be
more likely to acclimate well, or should I keep looking for the large
or extra large variety? <Medium/Small is always your best option.
Generally speaking, avoid tiny, large or extra large fish unless they
are aggressively eating prepared foods.> Again your comments are
greatly appreciated. Y'all take care! Steven <You too
Steve...Good luck! - Ali>
Done with the Goni., addressing overstocking -
Holy Cow! 10/25/05 Hi Adam <Ignatio.> Again, I need to
confess that seems I over stocking my fishes.
<Uh-Oh!> In my 100 gallon (the age: 9 months), I have: 9
fishes + 4 Lysmata amboinensis 1 blue face 4" (2 months already)
<This guy is a tank buster…needs a much larger tank as an
adult.> 4 Flame angels 2" (3 months already) <Is that a
typo?! Four flame angels…. honestly I'm surprised you
haven't had more problems, as harsh as this may sound you really
should consider ridding yourself a few of them.> 1 Regal angel
3" (2.5 months already) <That's another angel that needs a
boat-load of room. WAY to many angels my friend. As well as not having
enough physical room, there could….there WILL be aggression later
down the road. Seems like you want this tank to go in the direction of
a reef so in that case all but maybe the flame (only one preferably)
should be omitted. Even without considering the future reef these fish
need new homes at earliest convenience, to avoid aggression and space
restraints, especially the larger angels and at least 2 of the flame
angels…preferably 3 out of 4 as mentioned above.> 1 Chaetodon
lunulatus 1.5" (only eat open brain coral) (3 months already)
<Careful now it could pick on other corals down the road, including
your new Goni, best to omit this one to in a full blown reef.> 1
Yellow tang 2.5" (1 month) 1 Purple tang 2" (2 weeks) <Oh
yes the warring Zebrasomas we have spoke of in our previous
conversations, well as I said earlier their will be aggression
especially as they both become adults, eventually you will be only able
to keep one and that's IF your yellow decides to play nice for the
time being, you may have to remove one sooner than later.> All of
them are healthy and want to eat, some times I saw my biggest flame
angel is chasing each other but not too aggressively because I put them
in the same time. (the same case like yellow vs. purple tang).
<It will get worse as they get older, these animals weren't
"built" to live in this proximity. What seems like harmless
nipping, chasing can be quite stressful>Fortunately my Blue face not
bothering the others. So what do you think the longevity of my fishes
for 9 of them <This array of 9 fish is not at all a wise long term
assortment. The blue face and the regal alone need tanks upwards of 200
gallons (separately not together). I would seriously consider
re-thinking your stocking list especially if you want a reef, look into
gobies, clowns, blennies and cardinals to name a few (after you fix the
current problem that is). Lots of enjoyment in these fish most are
"reef-friendly" and would make much better long term
citizens.> Do you ever go to Indonesia? <<Di Fenner says
Indonesia is one of her favorite places on earth to visit.
MH>> <No…farthest away from the mainland I have been
is our tropical island chain State known as Hawaii.> Thank you Adam
Best regards Ignatio <Good luck, and if you want some more ideas
restocking your tank I would be happy to help, Adam J.>
Marine Angels: (Holacanthus bermudensis)
10/11/05 Bob and the Crew, <Adam J with you tonight.> Thank
you so much for this awesome site...I have come across this site a few
months ago and I have enjoyed reading all the posts here
tremendously...(not to mention learning new things every day). Thanks!
<And thank you for the kind words, I will share them with rest of
the crew.> Today I have a question and I hope you guys can help me
with... I have a 29g Fish only tank running for 6 months, fully cycled
with Ammonia 0 Nitrite 0 Nitrate 5 ppm Ph 8.3 and stable Currently I
have one tomato clown and everything went well...Recently I bought a
juvenile Blue Angel fish (1" size). <Small sizes like this
rarely adapt to captivity (most perish in shipping and acclimation).
Best to purchase specimens around 3". I am also glad to see this
tank is temporary.> Since I am planning to upgrade to 125g tank
<180-gallons would be better for the adult size of the angel.> in
6 months time and I love raising this beautiful fish, I decide to go
ahead trying out this plan. Upon bringing him home, I then had this
Angel quarantined for three weeks and he was very lively, eating and
playing actively... < A good sign.> The only unusual
thing was that I notice his swimming was erratic occasionally (like
charging or bolting forward unexpectedly). I checked all water
parameters carefully (including electrical grounding) and everything
was normal and I thought it could be due to his shyness (when he saw
shadows etc...). <In the wild, juveniles of this size rarely venture
out into open water, they are usually hiding amongst the shadows and
rock, be sure to have lots of hiding spaces. Intense lighting can also
spook them. Subdued lighting would be best to "comfort"
him.> Today I take him to the display tank where the tomato clown is
and I notice his behaviour did not change. He is hanging around with
the clown (they are both the same size) and the clown does not bother
him at all... However he is still occasionally bolting/charging
forward which is now staring to stress the clown as he may be startled
and probably thinking the Angel starts attacking him... His erratic
behaviour looks very unsettling and I am not sure what is wrong with
him...The clown behaves normally as always, but a bit stressed out if
anything. Please help... <Sounds like he is insecure of his
surroundings. Make sure there are plenty of caves in which he can hide
himself. Furthermore even at this size I suspect the confines of 29
gallons is getting to him, Angels love room to roam.> I have a short
movie clip as well of his behaviour, if this helps... Thanks much, Rob
<Read here for more info: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/marine/fishes/angels/holacanthus/,
Adam J.>
Angel Fish Deaths 9/21/05 Over the past
year, we have had multiple angel fish deaths. They have all
occurred suddenly without any apparent injury to the other fish in the
tank. The saltwater tank has been set up for two years, and we do
regular water changes, and have no abnormalities in the water.
Currently, we have a damsel fish, two clown fish, and a yellow tang, in
addition to shrimp, crabs, and snails with live rock. Each
new addition to the 70 gallon tank (all have been angel fish. a blue
angel, six bar angel, coral beauty, and Flagfin angel) have lived for a
couple months, and then died suddenly. Prior to their death,
they appear well integrated into the tank, have no outward
abnormalities, no signs of trauma, and are eating well. We
can't seem to figure out what the cause of death could
be. Please provide any suggestions to help. Could
there be any other hard metal abnormalities even though that we use a
RO/DI filter? Copper, lead, and iron testing have all been
negative. Thanks for the help,
Dale <First impression is you are not meeting their
requirements/diet, etc. Read some of the articles here,
Dale. http://www.wetwebmedia.com/marine/fishes/angels/ James (Salty
Dog)> <<Also, most of the angels mentioned are not hardy for
aquarium use... RMF>>
Bigger Tank...Bigger Fishes?
(Cont'd.) 7/31/05 Scott, Thanks for the reply. <You're
quite welcome!> Lots to think about. You mentioned the Genicanthus
sp of angels. Never even really heard of them
before. Did some quick looking up and they look like
beautiful fish!! Do you think that a Swallowtail Angel would
work in my system? <They are nice fishes, but they can be a bit
sensitive, coming from deeper water. They are subject to stresses from
the collection process. Acquisition of a specimen from a reliable
source is critical. They do get to pretty good sizes, so you do want to
make sure that you have a lot of room for the fish to maneuver in its
captive environment, as well as tankmates that don't harass it.
Quarantine is crucial!> On another note, I also saw a small
(3") Singapore angel at the LFS. Opinions? <This fish is a
notoriously tough fish to keep. Many don't acclimate to captive
life and failure to feed. I'd pass on this one, myself. I kept one
for about two years, after which it died most mysteriously! I
haven't heard too many success stories about this fish in the long
term, and have been rather cynical about keeping this fish again.
That's my personal two cents on the fish!> If the larger angels
are out, what are the odds of adding a second pigmy angel to my tank
with an established Coral Beauty? Always wanted a Flame
Angel. <Always a potential catastrophe in the making, IMO. I just
received correspondence from another hobbyist who attempted this
unsuccessfully. It's not impossible- but it is very challenging and
fraught with potential problems. If your system was specifically set up
just for Centropyge, and stocked with them carefully from the start,
there is potential for success. Breeding groups, or "harems"
can be established if carefully managed. My advice is to pass on this
experiment unless you go this dedicated species-specific route.>
Perhaps some ill-tempered, mutated Seabass!!! lol
<Riiiiiiiiiiiiiight! :) > On a totally
different note, how would you recommend QTing a clam? Do I
need the intense lighting for the QT??? I just have a little
10-gal (also have a 29avail now) simple setup with a HOT filter and a
sponge filter with the screw in PC bulbs. <In a quarantine setup,
you can get by with this type of lighting because of the proximity to
the light in such a small tank. Supplemental feeding will help
compensate for the lower levels of lighting. You can elevate the clam
on an eggcrate/PVC platform. This will increase proximity to the light,
and also allow potentially disruptive organisms (such as parasitic
snails) to "fall off" to the bottom of the tank. Do read up
on the WWM site under "Quarantine of Marine
Invertebrates".> Thanks again!! Ray <My pleasure. Good
luck!>
Juvenile Chrysurus 27 Jul 2005 I have a
juvenile Chrysurus angel that is probably about the size of a quarter.
I didn't mean to get him so small.<Hi Brandon, MacL here with
you today. No worries on the size as long as we can get past the
barrier of getting him to eat.> I ordered him on the net from Marine
Center, so I know the fish was properly cared for. That said, I've
had him for about 2 to 3 weeks. He hasn't eaten any prepared foods,
and that includes live brine. He is constantly picking at the rocks
however, showing somewhat of a feeding response. <If he is
constantly picking he is probably eating copepods found in the rocks.
He is more than likely getting enough to sustain him but unless you
have a way to refill what he eats or you reseed the tank with pods he
will eventually wear out the supply. There are many places that you can
buy pods to restock or you can use this time to get him eating other
things. One of my new favorites is www.seapods.com. A new business that
sells beneficial pods to help replenish.> There are no fish in the
125G tank to pick on him. <Does that mean there are no other fish at
all or just that no one there will pick on him? Often they can learn to
eat other foods based on examples from other fish.> He has now
developed a large white clump on his left pectoral fin. It looks very
large, too large to be Ich. <Sounds to me like it might be
Lymphocystis, you might check the site to determine if it is. If so
good water conditions should take care of the problem.> I'm
worried that his immune system may be compromised from not eating.
<Perhaps just a bit stressed from being a small tyke and
shifted.> Any ideas of what to feed when live brine
won't work? <Lots of stuff might appeal to him. He might eat
mussels cracked open. He might eat Mysis either frozen or live. Did you
contact the marine center to ask them what he was eating while there. I
have had a lot of success with fish not eating by putting garlic on the
frozen foods. Seems to encourage them to eat.> He chases it, only to
look and not eat. <Good luck, MacL> Thanks.
Large angelfish
selection 7/17/05 I just wanted to say thank you, I was convinced
that I had to have a 6 banded angel, and that no others would
do! That was until I read your article and realized that it
would be so selfish of me to buy this beautiful creature only to have
it die after only months. <Likely weeks, even days.> I would
never want to be a part of the death of such a magnificent
creature! Your article has convinced me to get a Koran when
I am ready for one! I really appreciate all of your
wonderful advice, especially since my LFS has NO IDEA about anything. (
They recommended and I now own the problematic SeaClone
150!) No longer will I take their word for it! I
think people like you and sites like this can help hobbyists realize
that many are out to push the product, and not truly interested in the
well being of the fish! Thank you again, Tanis Montminy
<Thank you for your acknowledgment and bolstering our sense of what
we're doing here. Bob Fenner>
Which Angel(s) would be
best? Hello! This is my first time writing after reading
many...many items from the website. I find your information and
suggestions very helpful and obviously well thought out.
<We've... walked the walk... and are able/willing, even eager to
"talk the talk"...> Anyway....I have stocked a FO 90gal
"show" type tank with a few peaceful residents. A Christmas
wrasse, Fiji puffer, Royal Gramma, Orangetail Butterfly, Yellow
Watchman Goby, and a small school (5) of Green Chromis. I would like to
start adding the final fish to the tank and thought a combo of Angels
would finish off the tank nicely. <...> I am thinking about maybe
one full size Angel and one dwarf. <Mmm, no... this tank is too
small for a large angel...> Could you give me suggestions on a good
combo for this size and type of tank. The tank has good filtration and
skimmer. Thanks in advance, Donald R. Wear <Look to one of the
medium to smaller genera, species... Genicanthus, Centropyge...
reviewed and evaluated on WWM. Bob Fenner>
Question About Pomacanthus annularis -
06/05/05 First of all, let me say that I think your website is
wonderful, and I've read your book cover to cover. <<Hello
Steve, Eric R. here today, and I assume you're referring to
Bob's book...excellent reading it is.>> I've gained much
knowledge from reading the FAQs and your readers' questions.
<<Yes...much to be found/discovered among these pages.>>
This started as my wife's hobby, but I found myself helping out a
lot, especially in the LFS. I guess I'm a good listener
so I've been able to help my wife decipher what the LFS sales guys
are saying. I also refurbished the filtration system on an
old 125 that I bought used, so I guess I'm becoming a hobbyist.
<<Tee hee! Does go that way
sometimes. Hopefully you're enjoying the
involvement.>> Finally, I have a question for
you. Currently, I have a fish only 125 gallon marine
aquarium with the following fish. <<Wait! What's
this "I" stuff? Thought you said this was your
wife's hobby <Big Grin>?>> Clarkii Clown, Flame Hawk,
Niger Trigger, Green Bird Wrasse, Hippo Tang, Wolf Eel Blenny Some of
the sales people are telling my wife she can have a dozen or so fish
(or more if they're small). <<Not surprising to hear, but,
stocking a tank is MUCH more involved than basing numbers on the size
of the tank and the size of the fish. Factors such as
hardiness, activeness, temperament/compatibility, etc. must be
considered. Each addition must be researched carefully, and
any decisions on size should be based on the fishes SIZE AT
MATURITY.>> She is definitely wanting to add an Annularis angel.
<<Ahh...Pomacanthus annularis...beautiful fish.>> I'm
thinking that this would still be ok, but we should probably not add
any more after this. Do you think there's room for an
Annularis? I realize the tang and trigger can get very large
<<and that bird wrasse grows to a foot on the
reef.>>, but they're both still quite
small. Your input is much appreciated. <<To be honest
Steve, I'm hesitant about this mix of fish. The tank is
large enough for the angel (though at a mature 20" I would prefer
to see it go in to a tank twice this size) but will become quite
crowded as all these large fish grow. I think all would be
happier/healthier in the long run without the tang or the trigger; my
vote would be to remove the Hippo Tang (too skittish and disease prone
in small systems, IMO).>> Thank you, Steve <<Welcome, Eric
Russell>>
Question About Pomacanthus annularis II -
06/07/05 actually PYTB Thanks so much for the reply. <<Happy
to do so.>> That's not the first time I've heard about
Hippo Tangs being a little harder to keep. Is this something
that happens later in life? <<Not in my opinion...I've
noted/read of their skittish nature, proclivity to succumb to Ich at
all ages.>> Our Tang looks like one of the most healthy fish we
own. He eats well and is always grazing on algae, and this
fish has grown from 2.5" to almost 4" in around 6 months.
<<Perhaps you are the exception. These fish are
naturally very robust and very active. They need lots of
food, and this fish actually requires a diet higher in protein than
vegetable matter.>> It's actually one of my favorites, and
I'd hate to give it up to make room for someone
new. Maybe the upgrade to 300 gallons will be sooner than I
thought. <<Always a good reason to go bigger (like you need a
reason <G>). A 300 would make a terrific display for
the selection of fish you listed originally...and maybe a couple more
discreet additions as well.>> Thanks again for the response, and
I'll be talking to you all soon. <<Looking forward to
it.>> Steve <<Eric R.>>
Emperor Angelfish Hello. I was very
concerned about the Emperor Angelfish I would like one of my own, they
are so beautiful and majestic... so I was wondering first are they at
all difficult? Do they require expert care? I own a glass 150gallon
tank at full grown could several exist in my tank? Write back soon
thanks! <Read here my friend.
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/marine/fishes/angels/pomacanthus/imperator.htm
- James (Salty Dog)>
Passer Angelfish Switcheroo With a Flame Angel -
15 May 2005 I am angry right now as I went to purchase a flame
angel for my 75 gal tank and came home with a Passer Angel because I
was told it would only grow to about 8 inches! <Yowsa, someone
either was majorly misinformed or majorly confused.> He is
beautiful and approx 3.5 to 4 inches right now. <They are a
stunning fish.> He came with a high price tag and now that I
have done some research realize I am going to have to upgrade my new 75
gal within 6 months. <Definitely a very quick growing
fish.> Not what I want to do and my husband would kill me
anyway. <Eeek> Do Saltwater fish stores take fish
back for the same price normally. <I think that a reputable
fish store would take the fish back simply because you were misinformed
about his total size. Now they might give you store credit instead of
cash back. That often depends on different stores.> They are
closed today so not sure of what to do. <Call first thing as
soon as they are opened and only speak to a manager or owner of the
store.> Believe me I am learning the hard way and will get
better at this, already learning LSWF may not be as educated as I which
is not much at the moment! <I'm sure it was an honest
mistake and like you said they were not as educated. If I might make a
suggestion, it might behoove you to put any fish you want on hold then
get educated about what they need before you make the purchase. I'm
not sure the type of store that you bought the fish from but often many
of these stores aren't specifically for fish and don't give the
staff the appropriate education. I'm sure that its more a lack of
time constraint than anything else but you might also do some research
to find a store in the area that can give you the information you
need.> Any suggestions would be appreciated. Great site, very
informative!!!!!! <How kind of you to say, thanks
MacL>
Annularis Angel, James' go Hey crew, on
the last question I forgot to mention in previous email: How
do you feel about putting an annularis angel in a 65g FOWLR
setup? He will be one of only about three other smaller
fish, I really can't seem to find any angels I like that don't
outgrow my tank and he's the smallest so I'm really considering
him? <I've search a few sites and the Annularis (Blue Ringed
Angel) can attain a length of 12'. They are considered hardy as far
as the angel family. Myself, I would prefer the Blue Girdled
Angel. They would fair a little better in a
65. Your tank size is slightly below borderline for any of
these angels as they will grow. James (Salty Dog)> Thanks
<<This is a VERY POOR choice IMO... James, see WWM, the web,
references re. RMF>>
Blue Ringed Angel Hey Jim, blue-
girdled angel? That's received a (3) rating and a "difficult
maintenance" from everywhere I have researched. So, that angel is
HARD to keep and dies often and mysteriously within a month or two. Why
would I take my chances on something that has a poor and dismal
survival rating. Are you sure you're knowledgeable about this
particular thing and you should be replying to emails? And next time
try to be a little more professional. <Jay, I probably was in
err suggesting that to you. My basis for that lies with other people
and myself who have kept them. Together we felt they were not that
difficult to keep as far as angels go. No angel is easy to keep.
But also keep in mind that all other parameters have to be strictly
maintained. That is a 125 or larger, pristine water quality along with
10% water changes and an excellent diet. The tank also needs to be
loaded with live rock and been set up at least six months. I'm
wrong in suggesting that since I don't know your experience or
skill level. Most newbies (if you are one) generally will not go
through the work necessary to maintain this fish and therefore the fish
would probably rate a three on a one to four level. I do try my best to
give professional, informative and safe suggestions in my responses.
But since I am human, the chance for error can exist. My apologies, and
you should stick with the Blue Ringed Angel or a Koran which I would
rate at a two level in degree of difficulty. James (Salty
Dog)>
Bad advice Bob, Probably wrong,
but I based this on my having kept a couple of Blue Girdled and on
advice from a few site who sell these type angels. <Mmm, well, this
is what you should do... and folks' experiences do vary... I assure
you though... as recorded on the Net, in print... that the subgenus
that includes this fish... almost never thrive in captivity> Then
again, if LFSs want to sell them instead of flushing them down the
toilet, they are not going to tell you they are difficult. But anyway,
the two I've had lived a few years before they outgrew my 125 and
had to be sold. They readily accepted any food I gave them. Quite
possible that I was lucky, don't know. Thanks anyway for the
response, and I will always keep this in mind. Regards, James (Salty
Dog) <Thank you... will archive this with our input. Bob
F>
Blue face angel, large angel sel. HI and
thanks for the opportunity for my question. I have the opportunity to
purchase a 30 cm Blue face angel. I personally think it's wrong to
capture fish this size for the aquarium trade but means nothing to the
blue face I'm thinking of buying. I would like to ask you if you
think it's wise buying a fish this size, <I do think it's a
poor idea to send such illiterate messages... use your spelling,
grammar checkers, please> ( I really feel for the poor thing and it
is a stunning fish), and what size tank should it really belong in so
it's quite comfortable. I have a 550 litre tank, 4x 2 x 2 ( sorry
we work in litres in Australia) to accommodate this fish while another
tank can be established. Any advice you can give would be greatly
appreciated. <In general large specimens of Pomacanthids collected
wild fare poorly... You can read re my opinions
re Euxiphipops on WWM. Bob Fenner>
Mis-matched Marine Set-up -II ... (file under
skimmer and angel selection) Thanks for your quick response and
vital info. Three last questions please. You suggested to get a
better protein skimmer for my 125g tank when I set it up for the fish
transfer. SeaClone makes a larger model for up to 150 gallon tanks. Is
it just an inferior design versus other makes? <Yes... read on re...
get something better> Secondly, if I were to upsize to a 150 or 180g
would it still be unadvisable to add a large angel, or any large fish,
to the mix of Hippo Tang, Purple Tang, Foxface, Clown, Gobies, Cherub
Angel, 6 line wrasse, Royal Gramma and Orchid Dottyback? <Mmm you
could add a "larger" species of Angel... at least for a
period of a few years in a larger system...> And if not, what type
of large angel would have a better chance to mix, a blue face, blue
girdled, or imperator ? Thanks for the help. <Of these, the Emperor.
Bob Fenner>
A Marine Angel in Mumbai Hi, I am from
Mumbai India and I've a 120 gal FOWLR marine tank that I've set
up 5 months back. I've read and admired your site for more than a
year now ... great work. <Thanks, everyone works hard to help when
and where we can.> Currently I've 2 BTA with maroon clowns
, 1 blue damsel , 1 yellow tang and 1 blue tang. My LFS has currently
got a emperor angel (3 inch) and a blue face angel (4 inch). Both are
in good health and eating prepared food. Since we do not get marine
fish readily here I am tempted to buy both. I am planning to upgrade to
a 180 gal tank next year. My question is (1) will there be a
compatibility issue between the two angels and (2) if I've to
choose, which will be your recommended choice. Thanks, Sumit <Hello,
I am glad we have been able to help. I am sorry to say that I don't
think the two fish will get along long term in your tank. A general
rule as it pertains to angels is that if they are large in size and
similar in color then they won't get along. An adult Emperor Angel
and an adult blue face will be similar in color and might fight. I have
seen it happen both ways. One where they coexisted and one where they
fought. I would suggest to you not to try it. I don't think that it
would be fair to the fish and that you would be asking for trouble. If
I were to choose between the two fish I would go with the Emperor for
the color or I would chose the Blue face for the smaller size so I
could put more fish in the tank. Good Luck. MikeB.>
- Dwarf Angels - Greetings crew, After
reading through compatibility FAQ's for "dwarf" and
Pomacanthidae I found questions and answers relating to my situation,
but not close enough to keep me from bugging you. Sorry, but here comes
another "can I put this and this in this tank" question....
My 125g FOWLR tank is currently fallow following an error in judgment
regarding a Tang in QT suffering from stress and reaction to copper
used for a case of Ich. Never again will I move a fish from QT to
display early. Anyways I lost a Yellow Tang and 2 Damsels, but my
4" Passer Angel, Talbot's and Fiji Devil Damsel are now
recovering nicely in QT. I've been contemplating the restocking,
and would really love to place 2 Centropyges in the 125.
<Would suggest only one in a tank of this size.> I have a
2nd 20g QT to setup, and could introduce the new Angels at the same
time I reintroduce the Passer and Damsels. <Would actually
introduce the Centropyge first.> The tank has about 100lbs LR
and 1" sandbed in the display and a 50g sump/fuge containing an
oversized Tunze skimmer and 4" DSB w/ macro and @10lbs LR in the
fuge. Is this a gamble I should take? <It would work, sure,
but as I've mentioned, would suggest only one of those you list,
and put it in before the Passer.> I haven't decided on the
particular species but was considering the Flame, Heraldi, Venustus,
Rusty, and Eiblii. That is if this is advisable. <All very
nice choices.> Thanks for your help Kenney <Cheers, J --
>
Centropyge V Genicanthus 8 March 2005 I have
a 48x24x24 reef tank that has primarily LPS and SPS. <Great
size for a tank.> I am considering adding an angel to my tank
and have narrowed the choices to a Centropyge multicolor and
Genicanthus watanabei. I was wondering if you have any thoughts on
which would be the most appropriate for a reef tank? <I have
had both types of angels. The multicolor is probably one of my favorite
fish in the entire world. That being said I did not find mine entirely
trustworthy in a reef tank. He picked on my clam a bit and ate some my
xenias. I had suspicions that he nibbled on some of my SPS' as
well. But let me do say that you cannot get a more beautiful angel. In
my experience the Centropyges are individuals. Some individual
fish will nibble on things while others do not. I know that makes it
difficult to assist with the decision but its more an accurate
assessment of what the Centropyge will do.> I have read most
of the summaries on the wetwebmedia.com site along with the FAQs but
cannot find much information on the multicolor in terms of a reef tank.
It appears that the Centropyge can be coral eaters and I was wondering
if this is true for the multicolor, or if, since this is a deep water
species, if that means that it would likely not eat coral? If there is
a chance that it would eat coral then I would likely go with the
watanabei since it appears that this species does not bother
corals. <I have never seen a Genicanthus that bothered a
coral. Not one of them so they are more likely to be the best candidate
for a reef tank.> Anyway, if you could let me know your
thoughts it would be much appreciated. <Hope that helped, Good
luck, MacL>
Multicolor Thanks very much for the great
information. I guess I kind of knew that the Genicanthus was the safer
choice but was holding out some hope for the multicolor since I saw one
for the first time in a store a few days ago and it is a very nice
looking fish, though the watanabei is beautiful as well. <You
know Brian honestly if you find the fish of your dreams I really
suggest getting it and making whatever accommodations you find
necessary to keep it. You might not have ANY problems whatsoever and
its worth it to have something that you find amazing. Good luck,
MacL>
Angelfish Trade-Offs Hi Bob,
<Scott F. in this afternoon!> I was interested in getting an
Emperor Angelfish, or Majestic or Maculosus Angelfish but I am unsure
of their compatibility with cleaner shrimp. <Fish, like people are
all different. However, I would generally not be too concerned about
these fishes attacking Cleaner Shrimp. This is not to say that they
WON'T, but they are typically not much of a threat, in my
experience. If you are keeping sessile inverts, like corals- forget it,
as they will make a meal out of almost all corals you'd care to
keep!> I have a 220g tank with the following fish: Powder Blue Tang
Yellow Longnose Heniochus sp. Green Chromis Yellow Damsels Blue Chromis
Yellow Watchmen Goby Mandarin Pistol Shrimp Sand Starfish Blue Crabs
Banggai Cardinal Cleaner Wrasse Fairy Wrasse Flame Angel 2 Fire Gobies
2 False Percula Clownfish <A nice group of fishes and inverts...>
Do you think these Angelfish are good? If not, any recommendations?
Also, what about introducing a Sailfin tang to my powder blue tang?
Thanks for your help. Candice <Well, Candice- each of the angels
that you mentioned can be excellent pets if you select quality, healthy
specimens, acclimate them carefully, and provide a stable environment.
However, your tank has a pretty good population already, and these
"full size" angels require a lot of physical space and
territory. In fact, a rule of thumb offered by Bob and others is that
you should dedicate at least 100 gallons of your system alone to just
the angel. Maculosus Angels are awesome fish, however! If it were me,
though, I'd be inclined to try a more "outgoing"
Centropyge angel, like the Lemonpeel Angel (C. flavissimus) in your
situation. It can reach a comfortable 5", is pretty outgoing and
able to take care of itself, and can be quite hardy if you get a
net-caught specimen. These guys are territorial with other angels, but
should settle in nicely with your other fishes. I tend to encourage
people to keep these "dwarf" angels more often, as they do
have many of the endearing attributes of the bigger guys, but are
generally less demanding in terms of space requirements. They can, of
course, be challenging in their own right. In my opinion, the large
Angels, particularly the Emperor, are best suited to situations where
they are the "showcase" fish, and are surrounded by smaller,
less active fishes. Housed this way, they can be spectacular! Also, I
feel that you tank has too many smaller fishes in it to be able to
house one of these guys comfortably for a natural life span. Remember,
the Emperor can reach up to 15", and the others that you mention
can hit a foot or more as well. I maintain a 72"x 24"x
30" (225 gallon) system, and I would be hesitant to house one of
these fishes in anything less than an 8 foot long tank. Some people may
disagree, but if you've ever seen one of these fishes at size in
the wild, you'll realize that most of us should be thinking about
smaller fishes in our systems. With regard to your question about the
Sailfin Tang...This is another awesome fish, but it, too can hit
15" plus, and requires a huge tank as well. They are excellent
fishes, however, durable and displaying great personalities! I would
not add one to your tank at this point. Perhaps a Ctenochaetus species,
like the Kole Tang, which is a much more modest-sized fish, would be a
better choice. Or, there's always the old standby, the Yellow Tang.
Common, but a good fish nonetheless! You have a very interesting tank,
so any addition that you make should compliment the existing animals
and add some interest, without overwhelming the system! Hope my
diatribe inspires you to look into some of the smaller versions of the
"big guys" found in the trade! Good luck! Regards, Scott
F.>
Pomacanthus annularis query Hey crew, on the
last question I forgot to mention in previous email: How do
you feel about putting an annularis angel in a 65g FOWLR
setup? He will be one of only about three other smaller
fish, I really can't seem to find any angels I like that don't
outgrow my tank and he's the smallest so I'm really considering
him? Thanks >>>Hello Jay, P. annularis is not a beginner's
angel number one. Number two, your tank is much too small to
accommodate one for any significant period of time. If you can't
find a dwarf angel that you like...well I'm worried about you quite
frankly Jay. :) Consider C. acanthops or C. argi. Both are attractive,
very small and VERY hardy. The only caveat being that they are rather
aggressive, but this usually isn't a problem if they are added
last. Just don't keep them with very shy fish. Good Luck
Jim<<<
A Debate Over Angels Hey Jim, you're
worried about me? lol. That wasn't necessary man. Besides, everyone
has different likings to things, to each their own. Second, I'm not
a beginner and my tank has been setup for over two years and I've
had fish for over 13 years. And you might want to check your research
regarding marine angels because NO angel is a beginner fish Jim. And
Bob Fenner gave the annularis a (1) rating. Thanks for your help anyway
though bud. >>>Now Jay, I was just funnin' ya buddy. :) To
each his own indeed. Having said that, no I actually don't
need to check my research, I AM the research. I've been doing this
for 20 years or so and have been keeping marine angels of many types
all the while, and in my types of situations. My remarks are ALWAYS
based in empirical data, not second hand info or unreliable accounts on
the web or elsewhere. This is also why I'm already aware of P.
annularis' tank requirements - look Ma, no Google! Number two -
hardiness among angels is usually a relative thing compared to other
genera, but they do range from EXTREMELY hardy, to quite delicate.
You're also quite wrong that NO angel is a beginner fish. C. argi
is as hardy as marine fish come, practically a damsel disguised as an
angel, and so is C. acanthops. Both are small and easily accommodated
by most hobbyists. For a hobbyist with a bit more experience and space?
We have Holocanthus passer - you need to hang it on a clothesline to
kill it. P. maculosus isn't far behind. As long as the keeper can
manage the eventual size of the fish, and the aggression level, and has
done enough research to know at least how large of [a] tank he needs,
he should do just fine, even if he is a relative beginner.
P. annularis ranks somewhere below P. imperator as a juvenile, although
slightly older sub-adults often do quite well once acclimated. Scott
Michael gives it a 3 on a scale of 1-5, and based on my experience I
concur with his assessment where young juveniles are concerned. Good
Luck, Jim<<<
Angels - part 3 I disagree, I
don't think ANY angel should be used as a beginner fish. They need
a good 3 or more months of good, established water. And as far as the
tank size, common, it doesn't have to be as strict as your making
it sound as long as you keep up with water changes and remove it before
it outgrows the tank (if full size may be too big for tank). We're
talking fish here not mammals (Orcas or dolphins). When someone
purchases a dog, should they be saying that they're apartment is
too small to accommodate it then (running, freedom, space, etc.) so
they shouldn't buy it? lol. As long as you give your animal,
whatever it may be, a good, happy, healthy, spacious home, I don't
see a problem with it. Unfortunate you couldn't be of assistance,
but thank you anyway :-) >>>'sigh' You can disagree
Jay, and you can be wrong. You've just done both. You can't
assign an arbitrary period of time and say "this is how long this
or that fish needs" You need a stable system (not
"established water") for ANY marine organism. This has
NOTHING to do with how experienced the keeper is. Even a smart beginner
makes sure his tank is stable before adding fish. Sure you can cycle a
tank with certain fish, even an argi angel, but that doesn't mean
it's wise. Angels are NOT by their very nature "a certain
way" as a taxonomic group. They vary, many are delicate, a few are
quite hardy. Some are huge, some are quite small. You cannot
generalize, unless of course you lack sufficient experience with the
genera involved to make an educated statement on the subject. Also,
obviously you can keep a fish in a smaller tank as long as you remove
it before it grows too big. By that logic you can keep a Queensland
grouper on a 10 gallon tank. I assume the tank in question is for long
term use, and that is the only safe thing to do lacking further
information on your needs. C. argi or C. acanthops are as much a
beginner fish as any other. You can argue that NO marine fish is a
beginner fish as well. C. argi is as hardy as most damsels, but then
again I've only been keeping them for 20 years so I'm just a
young'n. Disagreeing is one thing, disagreeing without empirical
data to back it up is quite another. If you think you know too much to
be in need of this type of advice, by all means refrain from asking it.
Peace Jim<<< FWIW, RMF agrees with both/all views
here>>
Annularis Angel, James' go Hey crew, on the last
question I forgot to mention in previous email: How do you feel about putting
an annularis angel in a 65g FOWLR setup? He will be one of only about three
other smaller fish, I really can't seem to find any angels I like that don't
outgrow my tank and he's the smallest so I'm really considering him? <I've
search a few sites and the Annularis (Blue Ringed Angel) can attain a length of
12'. They are considered hardy as far as the angel family. Myself, I would
prefer the Blue Girdled Angel. They would fair a little better in a 65. Your
tank size is slightly below borderline for any of these angels as they will
grow. James (Salty Dog)> Thanks <<This is a VERY POOR choice IMO... James, see
WWM, the web, references re. RMF>>
Blue Ringed Angel Hey Jim, blue- girdled
angel? That's received a (3) rating and a "difficult maintenance" from
everywhere I have researched. So, that angel is HARD to keep and dies often and
mysteriously within a month or two. Why would I take my chances on something
that has a poor and dismal survival rating. Are you sure you're knowledgeable
about this particular thing and you should be replying to emails? And next time
try to be a little more professional. <Jay, I probably was in err
suggesting that to you. My basis for that lies with other people and myself who
have kept them. Together we felt they were not that difficult to keep as far
as angels go. No angel is easy to keep. But also keep in mind that all other
parameters have to be strictly maintained. That is a 125 or larger, pristine
water quality along with 10% water changes and an excellent diet. The tank also
needs to be loaded with live rock and been set up at least six months. I'm wrong
in suggesting that since I don't know your experience or skill level. Most
newbies (if you are one) generally will not go through the work necessary to
maintain this fish and therefore the fish would probably rate a three on a one
to four level. I do try my best to give professional, informative and safe
suggestions in my responses. But since I am human, the chance for error can
exist. My apologies, and you should stick with the Blue Ringed Angel or a Koran
which I would rate at a two level in degree of difficulty. James (Salty Dog)>
Bad advice Bob, Probably wrong,
but I based this on my having kept a couple of Blue Girdled and on
advice from a few site who sell these type angels. <Mmm, well, this
is what you should do... and folks' experiences do vary... I assure
you though... as recorded on the Net, in print... that the subgenus
that includes this fish... almost never thrive in captivity> Then
again, if LFSs want to sell them instead of flushing them down the
toilet, they are not going to tell you they are difficult. But anyway,
the two I've had lived a few years before they outgrew my 125 and
had to be sold. They readily accepted any food I gave them. Quite
possible that I was lucky, don't know. Thanks anyway for the
response, and I will always keep this in mind. Regards, James (Salty
Dog) <Thank you... will archive this with our input. Bob
F>
Xanthotis angel availability Hey guys, I
have a question regarding the xanthotis, yellow ear or red sea
angel? It's not in stock on any of the websites and I
never see it at my LFS, are these too rare? More rare than
the Goldflake? Where can I get a hold of one? Thanks, Jason
<Kind of rare here due to cost, hauling from the Red Sea... more
common in Western European markets... not considered a great beauty (I
like it though). Same sites to try: Marine Center, Dr.s Foster &
Smith, Marine Depot (.coms). Bob Fenner>
Goldflake Angels Thanks Bob. Are
Goldflake Angels that hard to come across and where can I find one,
that would be my second choice? Thanks, Jeff <Jeff, MikeB here, I
find that Goldflake Angels can be affordable (found less than $100) but
that depends on your budget. You can try your local fish
store (they could order one if they don't have one in stock) or you
could try online from one of the WetWebMedia sponsors. Good
Luck. MikeB.>
Looking for Goldflake Angels Thanks
Bob. Are Goldflake Angels that hard to come across and where
can I find one, that would be my second choice? Thanks, Jeff <Not
that hard to come by all year long... but not easy to collect in the
wild (requires breaking up considerable amounts of Acropora)... Try
DrFoster&Smith and Marine Center (.coms). Bob Fenner>
Goldflake Angels Thanks again Mike for all
your time and researching.<No problem.> The reason why
I am buying from saltwaterfish.com is because I was really happy with
previous purchases from them (quality, price, etc.). And I
also like what they say about their livestock, (going through
quarantine, only selecting healthy specimens, etc.). I feel
like I can trust them. The problem is, my local pet store
told me that they can get if for me but for a five inch Goldflake it
will be $300 and I won't even consider that or else I would rather
see it before I purchase it like you said.<Yeah, that could
sometimes be a problem.> So my only other option is to
get it from saltwaterfish.com. Also, I chose this angel
because I prefer a mid-sized angel, not a dwarf. In my
opinion, the bigger ones are more interesting to watch. Two
questions: Which dwarf angels are you referring
to, and do you have any suggestions on any good places to
contact in PA, DE, NY, or NJ to order rare fish and get a good price
and be able to look at them like you said? Thanks again, Jeff <Jeff,
I don't know of any place in those states, I am in
Illinois. I was thinking of a dwarf pygmy angel or a
Brazilian Flameback Angel. I know of some places that sell
rare marine angels but they are online only. It seems like
you have thought of the pro's and con's of your decision and
you are making the best choice possible. That is a great
process to be taking. Good Luck. MikeB.>
Considering a Clarion Angel Hey Bob, I was
reading your articles on the Holacanthus clarionensis and I
am really intrigued by this fish and would really like to find
one. Plus the fact that it's good looking, not too big,
and gets a (1) care rating from you. You state that
"if you win the lottery, try this fish." About how
much money are we talking for this particular fish,
ballpark? Thank you Bob, Jeff <The going price is a few
to several hundred dollars... you might try contacting MarineCenter.com
re: http://www.themarinecenter.com/clarion.htm
Bob Fenner>
Looking for a Clarion II Thanks Bob, I went
to that marine center site and I like what I saw. Do you
trust them to buy from? Are they're fish healthy and are
they reliable? Thanks, Jeff <They are amongst the best.
Sterling reputation. Bob Fenner>
G. watanabei Hello crew, I read the daily
questions and answers and I think your site is awesome! Great job!
<Hey thanks!> I have 55 gallon reef setup tank. My fish stock
currently consists of: Yellow Tang (Zebrasoma flavescens), ocellaris
clown (Amphiprion ocellaris) and Naso Tang (Naso lituratus). I was
considering adding a Watanabei angel, but I am not sure of the tank
size requirements. Also, would my Yellow and Naso tang would be too
aggressive to it (they harassed a powder blue tang-Acanthurus
leucosternon- and, before I could separate them, they killed him)?
Furthermore, I was thinking that the fish load for this tank would be
too much. Would the fish load be good enough to be able to add a G.
Watanabei if I sell the Naso tang? Thanks in advance, Robertino
<Whelp, I do think the tank is inadequate for all those fish even if
you were to ditch one of the tangs because the angel grows to be
6'' and with the 8'' tang that makes for allot of fish
in 55g I would upgrade to a 90g and you'd be good! Good
Luck, LinearChaos>
Chrysurus angel... in a reef? hello there
crew! I had a quick question about the Goldtail angel (Pomacanthus
Chrysurus). Now I know no angel is "reef safe" but
I have to ask...Can a Chrysurus be kept in conjunction with
reef tank inhabitants? <Have seen one that was, long
term... in a friend's large system whom you've likely heard of.
Leng Sy of EcoSystem Aquarium> I know that some angels can get along
in a reef such as Majestics and imperators. I mean I've
seen it done before and was wondering if you think a Chrysurus could
fit into the somewhat reef safe angel category. The tank
will have mostly SPS corals with a very healthy
fauna. It's a 70g tall tank (I know waaaay to small for
this fish but will be upgraded to the likes of a 180-300g system by the
time it grows out of its juvenile phase) with a 20g sump and 20-50g
refugium. All I'm asking is "can it be done"
if I take the right precautions (quarantine, healthy eating individual,
small initial size, etc.)?
Thanks
for the help and quick response :)
Chris
AKA Fishtank <Can be. Bob Fenner>
Angelfishes for Marine Aquariums
Diversity, Selection & Care
New eBook on Amazon: Available
here
New Print Book on Create Space: Available
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