A continuing problem with sick dojo loach, and now my emerald green Cory cat has the same illness 9/22/09
Hello,
I am still struggling with the problem Neale responded to in August.
<Oh dear.>
The latest news is one of my balloon belly mollies died last week, the one that gave birth a few weeks earlier.
<Too bad.>
I noticed that she was stuck to the filter and assumed she was dead, but when I unplugged it she swam away. Then shortly after I noticed she was swimming oddly, a little crooked.
<Physical damage, to the fins at least, perhaps more serious. Balloon Mollies are deformed right from the get-go, with a crooked spine and deformed swim bladder. They swim poorly even in the best of health, and Mollies generally are prone to poor health in freshwater tanks. A deformed, sensitive species...? No thanks -- I recommend against them.>
She would stay close to the bottom but swam up eagerly whenever it was feeding time. She got stuck on the filter a couple more times throughout a few days and then died. I wasn't sure this odd swimming was due to the filter mis-hap or if she was sick and weak before the first filter incident.
<Healthy fish don't get sucked into filters, so if you see a dead fish in a filter, it was moribund/dead before it got there.>
And four days ago my Cory cat (the only one) showed the same signs of illness as my dojo loach - red around the gill area and at the base of his fins. He was also swimming insanely and I saw rapid gill movement.
<Interesting that these are both bottom feeders. I wonder if there's something wrong with your substrate and/or water circulation. If this was me, I'd replace the substrate (or at least thoroughly clean in outside the tank, e.g., in a bucket using a garden hose) and then check the filter was shifting water along the bottom of the tank properly.>
I put him in the quarantine tank with the dojo loach and started Maracyn-2.
They have had four days of treatment now. The Cory cat developed mouth rot too, just like the dojo did. And yesterday I noticed a whitish lump on his underside. I'm going to try to attach a picture at the bottom of this e-mail somehow (I have not been successful ever at resizing pictures).
<Again, the mouth and the belly (and the whiskers, so check those) are in contact with the substrate. A dirty substrate promotes (though doesn't cause) bacterial infections by producing the conditions those bacteria prefer. One reason I like sand rather than gravel is that it's less likely to get dirty, and also less likely to physically abrade sore or sensitive tissues. The addition of Malayan Livebearing Snails to tanks with a sandy substrate is a good way to keep the sand clean and well oxygenated.>
I figured that since the dojo loach, although healed from mouth rot, was still looking a little pinkish all this time, that this bacterial infection was still lingering (or incurable and I should pick up some clove oil soon as you had suggested in the first place) and it couldn't hurt to do another treatment. The hole in his head hasn't gotten any bigger and looks like it is either just staying put or healing at a slow rate.
And here is all of the info about my tank:
(this is from my records from starting it up, figured I'd give you all the info - sorry if it's way too much)
55 gallons
first set up February 28th 2009 - I tried to do a fishless cycle and thought I was successful, though now I wonder.
on this set-up day I filled the tank, used Prime, poured some of my established 10 gallon tank water into the new tank, added purchased bacteria, added a tank decoration from the 10 gallon tank.
Day 6, I tested the water
GH 180
KH 120
PH 7.5
<Fine.>
Day 7 added water softener pouch for 7 hours and tested:
GH 120 (test strips hard to read, but wasn't the solid 180 color it was on Day 6)
KH 120/180 (test strips hard to read)
PH 6.5
<Why the water softener? Why are you lowering the pH? Let's be clear: a pH of 7.5 is ideal for most aquarium fish. Multiple reasons, but the important ones are [a] the filter bacteria prefer a basic pH, and [b] hard, alkaline water is less likely to experience pH variation than soft, acid water.
Unless you're breeding fish that specifically need soft water, it's best to leave hard, alkaline water as it is.>
Added the established 10 gallon tank filter, plus another tank decoration (from the 10gallon tank)
added two of my zebra Danios
added more purchased bacteria
<The bacteria are in the system; adding more largely pointless. I'd sooner add a big clump of floating plants such as Indian Ferns. These carry lots of helpful bacteria on their roots, so help cycle tanks, and more importantly, suck up ammonia and nitrite as they grow.>
Day 8 tested water:
GH 120 ? (test strips hard to read)
KH 40 ? (test strips hard to read)
PH 6
Nitrite 0
Nitrate 0
<Again, we have this dropping pH, likely because your carbonate hardness (KH) is FAR TOO LOW for a freshwater community. Remember, Mollies MUST have hard, basic water, at least 15 degrees dH (~250 mg/l calcium carbonate equivalent), and ideally much more. There are VERY few community fish that actually demand soft water, and you certainly wouldn't keep them with Mollies.
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/FWsubwebindex/fwh2oquality.htm
>
Day 11
ammonia read > .25
<No surprise. When pH gets below 7, biological filters start to work significantly less efficiently, and below pH 6, the bacteria don't work at all.>
Day 13
ammonia read .25 or less
GH 30
KH 40
PH 6
Nitrite 0
Nitrate the test strip was faintly pink, but basically zero
<Hmm...>
Day 15
ammonia .25
Nitrite 0
Nitrate 0
PH 6.5
KH 180
GH 120
did 8 gallon water change, added 55 mL bacteria
<Still got ammonia; the pH is low, the filter crashed, and that's likely one key factor here.>
Day 17
ammonia .25
<Again...>
Day 20
ammonia <.25
Nitrite 0
Nitrate 0
PH 8
KK 40
GH 120
added three red serpae tetras (from my 10 gallon tank)
<Why adding fish?>
Day 23 and Day 24
ammonia 0
Day 25
had water tested at store, tested fine. purchased 3 dwarf gouramis/added to tank
<Wouldn't touch these fish with a bargepole, and in an unstable tank, their lifespan isn't likely very high. Golden rule: don't add fish while you're still trying to keep others alive.>
added 55 mL bacteria
Day 27
ammonia 0
Day 36
Nitrite and Nitrate both at 0
Day 38
added 3 Rasbora tetras, changed Right filter
Day 42
8 gallon water change
Day 61
8 gallon water change
Day 67
8 gallon water change, changed Left filter this is about where I stopped recording. I tested during this time and everything was at zero. I Figured the tank was cycled.
<Maybe.>
My tests today read:
PH 7
Nitrate 0
Nitrite 0
Ammonia 0
ALK KH 180
Hardness GH 150
<Better. But still, let's get the pH to 7.5, if necessary by adding suitable amounts of Rift Valley cichlid salt mix; I'd say about 1/4th to 1/3rd the dose recommended for Rift Valley tanks should be fine. Don't alter the pH directly; just change the carbonate hardness, and the pH will follow, and in a stable way.>
I use an AquaTech filter - I had made my own filter cartridges for a few times, using the white fluffy filter material (it was the only kind the pest store sold) and charcoal, using one of the plastic pieces from inside a store-bought filter on the inside. I stopped doing this in case this is why the fish are getting sick.
I feed with:
TetraMin Tropical Tablets, "the rich mix for bottom feeders"
Omega One Natural Protein Formula shrimp pellets
Omega One Super Color Flakes (natural protein formula)
Tetra Min Tropical Flakes
I use Seachem Prime with every water change, adding it to the buckets before pouring into the tank
temp 76-78 F
I currently have in there:
4 Rasboras
2 black neon tetras
3 cardinal tetras
1 balloon molly
1 Pleco
all seem fine, except the Pleco goes a little pale in patches once in a while, but this was happening from the beginning and I thought it might be normal for them when they were resting (I had never had one before).
<The patches are mucous, and often a reaction to water quality problems.>
I think in my original email to you (or it is in the Disease Emergency post)
I mentioned that there were to mollies (or platies, I can't tell the difference) that I introduced a few weeks before the Dojos got sick. One of them died about a week after, and the other one died suddenly a week after that. When I scooped it out of the tank I saw that it had a bright red circle about 4mms wide on its side. This is what leads me to think that it was this fish that introduced disease to my tank, but I'm obviously no expert.
<Well, I am an expert, and I'll tell you if you keep lowering the pH like this, any livebearers you add will die. End of story. For optimal results, aim for moderately hard, moderately basic conditions: pH 7.5, 10-20 degrees dH (that's about 175 to 350 mg/l calcium carbonate equivalent). That will keep livebearers happy, while remaining acceptable to a wide range of community fish. Yes, Neons and Rasboras and the like come from soft water habitats, but they don't share them with Mollies or Platies! So you have to use your noodle a bit here, and figure out which species are most sensitive to water chemistry issues (livebearers) and act accordingly.>
The first dojo loach that died had those red spots, but smaller and not as bright, all over his body when he died.
<Still a bad sign.>
At least the Cory cat's getting sick has given the dojo loach some welcomed company in the quarantine tank. He did perk up to see his old friend and they hang out together most of the time now.
<Hmm...>
Of course I would love to save the two sick fish, but I'm even more concerned about the future of my main tank. There must be something wrong with it, especially since my Cory cat is sick with the same symptoms. Where do I go from here?
<See above.>
Any hope for the sick fish or is it time to let them go? the Cory cat is still quite active, and the dojo loach isn't acting like he is anywhere near death either.
<Likely can, will recover given good conditions and right medications.>
Thank you so much,
Hilary
<Cheers, Neale.>
Pictures below - the dojo loach is looking good except for pinkish hue around gills and back end of body. Tough to see in the picture though.
You can see the hole in his head though - I hope it isn't a terrible case.
It seems to be staying put.
<Nothing came through. Please be sure to attach ~500 kB images to your e-mail. Images that are too big cause problems for us.>

re: a continuing problem with sick dojo loach, and now my emerald green Cory cat has the same illness  09/24/09
Thank you for your reply - I have some questions and explanations and have tried to make them easy for you to find by using lines to separate my words from the original e-mail.
<OK.>
I wasn't able to get the resized pictures to attach to this e-mail and hope that it is acceptable that I cut and pasted them at the bottom.
<Nothing came through. Cutting and pasting images into e-mails doesn't always work. Do use the "attach" button on whatever your e-mail program is.>
I have sand substrate. It is children's play sand. I was told by a fish store employee that it is great because it is a more natural color and less expensive than the marketed kind for aquariums.
<Provided the sand is [a] smooth and [b] chemically inert, you can use whatever you want. Sand comes in two grades, "sharp" and "smooth", and sharp sand will damage your fish. As for the chemistry, the sand needs to be lime-free. Personally, I use smooth silica sand from garden centres as a 100% safe alternative. Play sand, pool filter sand, etc. may be fine, but there are no guarantees. The play sand from one shop may be different from another, so I can't give you any assurances. If the sand feels smooth, that's good, and if it doesn't react with acid (e.g., vinegar) that's good too.>
After Googling and reading the same online, I went ahead with this. I washed it thoroughly, in small quantities, by running water and stirring it until the water was nearly clear. Was this a mistake to use this kind of sand and do you still believe I need to change it or wash it again?
<Provided the sand is safe to use for the reasons stated above, cleaning it is more a visual thing. Most folks find that the silt in bags of sand makes their tanks murky for a few days, but nothing a water change and a good, strong filter won't fix. Replace/clean the mechanical filter media after the first week because that's where most of the silt ends up/>
and I am soooooo uncomfortable with the idea of introducing snails into my tank again, as I had way too many in my 10 gallon at one point after one hitching a ride in with a fresh plant.
<Snails convert organic matter into baby snails. If you have too many, then you have other problems.>
This is also why I am super hesitant to ever bring fresh plants into my tank again.
<Non sequitur. There are plenty of ways to kill snails on plants before you put them in your aquarium. Snail-killing potions are sold in aquarium shops and work well as "dips".>
I had "pond snails" I believe.
<Typically Physa and Planorbis spp.>
Are they the same as Malayan Livebearing Snails?
<No, these are Melanoides spp.>
I will introduce the snails if you really think I should though...
<I have Melanoides snails in all my tanks. I find the good they do -- as substrate cleaners and aerators -- easily outweighs their nuisance value.
While they do breed quickly, a combination of physical removal, predators, and simply ignoring them works a treat. Clea helena, the Assassin Snail, is a great snail population limiter.>=
Well, I freaked out that my 55 gallon tank had harder water than my established 10 gallon tank and it was harder than the water straight from the tap. This confused me and figured I should get the water the same hardness as the established 10 gallon was. So I was trying to soften it just a bit, not lower the pH. I had heard so much about not being worried about or try changing the pH that I didn't think it a big problem that the pH changed (and figured it would level out with water changes). Lesson learned.
<Cool.>
Why adding fish? Because I thought that adding the three fish (transferring from the established 10 gallon tank) would help the cycle to continue at a safe rate. I was more paying attention to the ammonia/nitrate/nitrite tests than the other areas.
<Ah, I see. Generally, so long as a tank has a few fish in there, the cycling process will continue happily enough. Adding extra fish is of marginal value, unless you plan to *dramatically* increase the population of fish in there at some point. For example, if you cycled with a couple of Guppies, and then added an adult Oscar, that would probably be bad!>
I didn't realize I was trying to keep others alive at this point...just thought I was helping the bacteria multiply at a safe rate for the fish.
They did not last super long (and they were so darn territorial with each other it was annoying to have them in there, too).
<Yes, many schooling fish stop being schooling fish when in groups of less than six, and in some cases, they become outright nasty.>
I am having trouble finding Rift Valley cichlid salt mix here. One store sells "cichlid lake salt",
<That's the stuff!>
and she told me that all of their salts will adjust the pH, not the carbonate hardness.
<She's wrong. By definition, these salts raise the pH precisely because they're raising the carbonate hardness. It's the carbonate hardness that creates the "stuff" that makes the water basic. It's the carbonate hardness that "mops up" the acidity.>
If I did more frequent water changes for a while, will that help??
<Up to a point, yes, the more water changes you do, the less background acidification becomes an issue. But this gets tedious, very quickly, so think about what you're trying to achieve here: an easy hobby that involves nothing more than daily feeding and water changes every week or two.>
I hope that doesn't sound like a stupid question. Or is this something that I would need to add to my tank on a fairly regular basis? (if I can find it - I suppose I can order it online somewhere)
<Do read here:
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/FWsubwebindex/fwh2oquality.htm
There's a recipe for making your own Rift Valley Cichlid Salt Mix for pennies a time. It's easy to do. For a regular community tank -- as opposed to a Rift Valley cichlid aquarium -- you'd use a smaller dose than described there; try reducing the amounts to one-fourth to one-third the amounts listed.>
I'm worried about this fish if he is reacting to water problems and am so frustrated I can't find the salt you mentioned. I noticed today that he was pale on about half of his body, and then when I turned the light on, most of the rest of his body went pale. I checked back later and he is dark as could be....tried to take a picture when he was pale but he had disappeared when I returned with the camera.
<Oh. For what it's worth, Plecs are quite tough fish, and given good conditions, generally recover from stress quickly.>
I'm sorry and feel stupid saying this - but I don't know what 10-20 degrees dH or the equivalent you mentioned means.
<Simply being precise. The other way of saying this: on your test kit, there'll be a scale of some sort, running from Soft to Moderately Soft to Moderately Hard to Hard to Very Hard, or words to that effect. For Mollies, the water MUST be Hard to Very Hard. For community fish, Moderately Soft to Hard is generally fine. In other words, Mollies only mix well with those community fish tolerant of "Hard" water, i.e., things like Platies and Rainbowfish, but not so much Rasboras or Cardinal Tetras. You have to pick and choose tankmates for Mollies very carefully.>
Possibly this is information on the comparison card for the liquid test tube version of the tests (and not test strips)? Aside from borrowing a friend's test tube testing kit for the last test I did to get you accurate info, I haven't used those for anything but ammonia (but plan to purchase a kit soon).
<I see.>
Would this Maracyn two be the right medication?
<Either than, or regular Maracyn should work. They treat different bacteria, on the average, people find trying Maracyn first works best, and only use Maracyn 2 if that doesn't work. But your own mileage may vary.>
This poor loach is now enduring a third treatment since this all started, and although he seems to be doing okay, he still has pink/red at the base of his side fins and a pinkish tone to his gill area. He looked this way when I put him back in the main tank and got sick again so I of course don't want to put him back until he's 100%. It seems that his recovery has plateaued and I don't know what to do about this. The Cory cat seems to be responding well to treatment thus far, but still looks red/pink and I assume he will have the same plateau.
<Likely.>
okay, here is what I think the right sizes for you to see. The dojo picture doesn't look all that clear, but anywhere where it looks darker/pinkish is the pink that I am talking about that isn't going away.
I am cut and pasting them into the email and I hope this works.
<Didn't. If all else fails, try some free image hosting service such as Flickr, and include the link in your message.>
Thanks so much for your time.
Hilary
<Happy to help. Cheers, Neale.>

Re: a continuing problem with sick dojo loach, and now my emerald green Cory cat has the same illness  9/25/09
A link to the pictures! what a smart idea - here it is.
http://www2.snapfish.com/thumbnailshare/AlbumID=2062389007/a=32233289_322332
89/otsc=SHR/otsi=SALBlink/COBRAND_NAME=snapfish/
<I think you're meant to send an invitation to view this online album. As it is, I had to join Snapfish. Normally, we don't have time to go through hoops for this sort of thing. But it's a nice sunny morning here in England, so I joined up. Anyway, your fish don't appear to be especially "sick" as such, though the Corydoras looks a little underweight (if you can see the belly, it's concave, which isn't a good sign). My feeling is that these fish may have a mild bacterial infection, but it's more than likely we're talking about an environmental reaction. Variation in pH, a dirty substrate, marginal water quality may all be issues. In particular, take the time to review tank maintenance. Sand needs to be kept clean, and the best way to ensure this is to check there's a good flow of water along the bottom of the tank. Use a turkey baster to pipette out detritus between water changes. Feed your catfish and loaches their own food, ideally at night, so that they're not subsisting on leftovers; a good all-around food for both species would be Hikari Algae Wafers.>
Thanks again for your help. I have a few final questions
<Fire away.>
If my dojo loach continues to stay pinkish, what do I do? The two fish have had 7 days of powder packet treatments of Maracyn-two thus far. The instructions say to continue treatment until signs of illness are gone.
This could be a while if ever and I can't imagine the medicine is something good long term.
<I can't see anything obviously wrong with this Weather Loach. They can appear a little pink when the light shines through the thinner parts of their body, and if there's something amiss with the environment, they may appear irritated. But essentially these are hardy fish, provided they are maintained at below 25 degrees C (77 F). The same for Corydoras, and in fact I'd keep both species at the cooler end of the range, 22-24 C being ideal.>
And, do you suppose this sickness came about more because of the pH being below 7.5 or because there is some disease living in my tank that I still need to deal with?
<pH itself is rarely something that causes sickness unless it [a] fluctuates wildly within a few hours or [b] is outside the tolerances of a particular species. Loaches and Corydoras are fine between pH 6 to 8, so the value itself isn't an issue. But if exposed to pH that varies a lot, that can stress them. One key issue often overlooked is the toxicity of ammonia at different pH levels. In the acidic range, ammonia is less toxic than in the basic range, so if the pH goes from 6.5 to 7.5, while the pH change itself might be harmless, the sudden increase in toxicity of a small amount of ammonia in the system can cause severe stress.>
Can I treat the main tank with anything to make sure there isn't anything lurking in there waiting to cause more trouble?
<Right now, I'd finish the cause of meds you're on, and then concentrate on providing good, stable water conditions.>
How long would you to treat these sick fish before giving up?
<They honestly don't look that sick to me. Perhaps it's these photos?>
Until the hole in his head completely heals (how long does that take, anyway)?
<Should heal within a few weeks, should conditions allow.>
Until he is no longer pink? Both? The loach has been sick/pink for about six weeks now, poor guy.
<Are you sure it's simply not his normal colouration? Unlike Finrot, the classic bacterial infection, the fins on this fish are intact. If he had Finrot, I'd expect ragged fins.>
He doesn't look miserable now, at least, but I sure don't want to keep him in the 10 gallon hospital tank forever. The last time I thought he looked good to go and I put him back in the main tank, he was sick within four days and back in the hospital tank (and with a hole in his head appearing a few days after that).
<I see.>
I dropped some of the sand in a bowl of vinegar and saw no reaction. I am hopeful then that it is not the substrate that caused this problem and that I don't need to mess with it.
<Cool.>
I have a hard time killing snails (or I should say I just can't do it) and will need to look into this Assassin snail if I go this route. Though I am picturing the slowest predator/pray chase I've ever seen, ha ha.
<Prepare to be surprised! When the Assassin Snails kick into gear, they're remarkably brisk.>
Thanks!
Hilary
<Cheers, Neale>