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Mixing Centropyge (pygmy) Angels - Breaking the Golden Rule? 11/5/05 Dear Crew <Hi Jim.> I have a 130 reef marine setup with various corals (6 foot x2x2). I have the following stock :- 1 maroon clown 1 Pseudochromis 1 yellow tang 1 flame Hawkfish 4 blue Chromis 1 flame angel 1 Midas blenny 1 scooter blenny <Good choices, aside from the dragonet possibly.> The tank has a massive profusion of live rock and has been set up for 4 years. I have took the plunge (not so wisely this time) <Yes.> and added an Eiblii dwarf angel to the tank. The flame has chased him around for about 6 days now. <Expected.> The Eiblii seems un-phased by it and feeds once a day normally. <May be okay now but overtime not healthy for the fish.> Have I broke the golden rule of mixing dwarf species? <I'd say you have a text-book example in front of you...so the answer is yes.> Will the Flame stop the chasing eventually or should I de-stock one of them? <The latter.> Regards Jim <Best of luck, Adam J.> Mixing Centropyge Angelfish-A Slice of Heaven or A Glimpse of...? 10/12/05 I have had a 75 gallon tank with a Flame Angel for two years now. I also have a Golden Angel in a 45 hex tank now, going on five months. I went to the local aquarium store a couple of weeks ago and picked up a Potters Angel, I love this fish, and know it's not an easy fish. I actually had one about a year ago and lost him to a power head when the prefilter fell off. <Yuck> The question is, I would like to put one of these angels in the 75 with the Flame, the Potters is in a 20 gallon by himself right now. Should I keep them all separate? <With Centropyge angelfish, in the tank sizes that you're talking about, keeping them individually is really the only way to assure peace, IMO. I would not risk multiple Centropyge angels in any tank under 100 gallons, or 5-6 feet in length, with aquascaping designed to break up territories for the fish. Even then, thee are no guarantees of success. These fishes can become downright nasty! Depends largely on the individuals in question.> Tempted to setup another tank for the potters, what do you guys think? Thanks, Ron <Well, Ron- unless you want to invest in one large tank (100 gallons plus), you'd be better to enjoy each on in an individual setup. BTW, you will need a larger tank for the Potter's at some point, so do consider this. Good luck! Regards, Scott F.> Stocking Order and Territorial Flameback Pygmy Angel 10/11/05 Dear Crew, <Hello> I appreciate that there is much relevant information on your website but I would be most grateful if you could please spell it out for me - apologies in advance for taking up your time. I have a 55 gal FOWLR system, with 66lbs of live rock. I use a Fluval 304 for mechanical filtration, a Red Sea Prizm skimmer and two MaxiJet 600 powerheads for circulation. In the aquarium I currently have 2 mated percula clownfish, 1 mandarin dragonet (who thankfully is happy to eat frozen food) and a Flameback pygmy angel. Unfortunately the pygmy angel has become unsurprisingly territorial. <Mmm, is surprising> I recently tried to add 2 cardinal fish but these were chased by the pygmy angel until I had to return the surviving one to the LFS where I had bought him. I subsequently tried introducing a lemon peel pygmy angel, <This tank is too small for two Centropyge species> taking in part the advice from your site to rearrange the rocks into two distinct piles and removed the Flameback for a couple of days into the QT tank to allow the lemon peel to establish himself but again he did not survive. <Good techniques> My question therefore, is whether there are any fish that you could recommend to me, in particular, fish that will be strong enough to not be affected by the behaviour of the Flameback but at the same time gentle enough not to frighten my dragonet (of whom I am incredibly fond!). I read on the saltwater.about.com website that a yellow and a Naso tang might be possible contenders? <Maybe a smaller Zebrasoma species, not a Naso... your tank is too small> I appreciate that I will in a few years need to buy a larger aquarium to accommodate the Naso. Or do you recommend that I remove the Flameback and return him to the LFS (although he is all but impossible to catch without removing all the LR from the tank). <I would look into other species that are found in this fish's range (use fishbase.org here) that are also available in the ornamental trade... some of the small basses, Hypoplectrus... come to mind, as well as some of the smaller Labrids from the area> Thank you so much for all your help and assistance! Kindest Regards, Tim Kroemer <Bob Fenner> Cherub pygmy angel 9/17/05 Hi WWM crew. I have been reading through your site looking for information about the cherub angel, but I cannot find a good answer to my question, so here it goes. I have a 28 gallon that has a false percula clown, purple Firefish, neon goby, and a shrimp. I have a Millennium 3,000 running with an AquaC Remora Pro, 20lbs of live sand, and plenty of live rock. I want to add a small fish that will swim quite a bit (as the Firefish and goby do not) if possible. I have been unsure of what I can add that will be peaceful and get along with the other fish. Someone at an LFS told me that the Cherub pygmy would be good, but it seems that they can be very aggressive to other tankmates. Would this be a good fish to add? <Amongst one of the best for the size, mix you have> Or do you have any suggestions regarding something else that might be better? Thanks so much for your time and the great website. ~Jocelyn <If anything the Percula might go after the argi... but with lots of rock, spaces... Bob Fenner> Mixing Centropyges 8/30/05 Hey WWM Crew, <Jeremy> First of all, thank you Bob for answering an email I had written to you a while back regarding my first attempt at keeping a flame angel. <Welcome> Well, the time is coming for me to try again to keep an angel in my system. When I first wrote you, I had a 29-gallon setup up and running with too much going on and had not cycled properly either. Now I have a 55-gallon setup with the BakPak skimmer/biomedia, 60lbs. Live Sand, about 35 lbs. Live Rock (will add at least that in a short while to get it up to about 60-70 lbs) <This is still a small system for this species... and better to wait till all this now LR is in place, cured> and a Maxi-Jet powerhead 1200 to keep the circulation strong. I keep a good eye on my water chemistry and it is always within the normal parameters. The 29-gallon is up and running as a sick tank. I have currently 2 TR-ORA percula/ocellaris clowns (one is about 2.5" and the other is maybe an inch when he stretches), 2 blue-green Chromis, 1-3.5" Blue Hippo Tang (who is probably the biggest baby I have ever seen) along with a few small hermit crabs and snails. My question is a possible mix of two Centropyges. The Flame and the "Bluefin" (Centropyge multispinis). <Not a good bet in this sized system> I was reading in the faq's on your site and it was said that it could be "ok" if the tank is at least 4' long and very divided with live rock formations. My tank is exactly 4' long and with 70lbs. of live rock (with many caves and hiding spaces), am I asking for another disaster here or would it work? <Too much likelihood of trouble> I will probably be ordering these online from a very reputable place (I would say where, but I am not sure if its allowed) <All facts are allowed, encouraged> and I would try to get them as small as possible and at the same time. These 2 fish would be the last two fish I would add to the aquarium. Would adding a few bottom dwellers along with the 2 dwarfs be too much of a strain on the filtration/system? Like 1-2 gobies... <The gobies will be fine likely, but only one Centropyge... until your next larger tank...> I know a good LFS that would probably take one of the angels if they don't get along if I decide to do this. I will let the tank cycle at least another month before adding them (actually two months if you count the QT process). <One or both would likely be dead, die before you noticing...> Also, I read in the Conscientious Marine Aquarist that HLLE may be caused by vitamin deficiencies. <Most often, yes> I agree. Within a week of purchasing my blue tang (which I just felt bad for seeing it in a not-so-good LFS and bought it), I saw HLLE starting. Since I was watching for it and caught it early, I added Kent Zoe (didn't have Selcon) and Kent Vitamin C supplements to its food and the HLLE was gone in about a week. Thanks for all your help, Jeremy <And you for your participation. Do seek circumstances that you can more easily control here... One Angel per forty some gallons (after displacement...) is enough to too much. Bob Fenner> Hawk/Centropyge compatibility, safeness of milk jugs 8/19/05 Hi, I have a couple of non-related questions please. I have a 75 gallon saltwater tank currently with 1 large flame hawk and 2 false perculas. I purchased a coral beauty angel a couple of months ago and everything seemed fine until about a week ago. I noticed its fins were ragged and it quit eating. I had noticed the hawk chasing the angel several times while feeding. The angel died yesterday. Is it possible that if I bought another angel this might not happen again? I know nothing is guaranteed. <Will very likely re-occur> Also, I keep my water to compensate for evaporation in plastic milk jugs. Should I change out the jugs after a while. I have read about water getting bacteria in it from plastics breaking down, but didn't know if there was anything to worry about with fish. thanks for your help, James <Don't think there is any reason to change, toss these containers. Bob Fenner> A BIG Challenge (Mixing Centropyge Angels) 7/31/05 Hi Scott <Hello, again!> I found my Flame Angel dead today (the fins had several damaged areas).. I'm very sad Maybe it was not my luck to have him. <I'm sorry to hear of your loss. It may very well have been due to circumstances beyond your control, so don't be too hard on yourself! Collection, transport, and handling at the wholesale level of these fishes plays a large part in their success or failure in captivity. Selection of a healthy specimen from a reliable source, as well as quarantine by the hobbyist upon purchase is also critical!> So what do you think if I buy again the Flame Angel with the same size as my Bicolor, or even bigger, and add some live rock inside my tank? <Well, as I've mentioned before, mixing two Centropyge angels in all but the largest systems is a big challenge, and a potentially fatal experiment for one of the fish. I would personally not attempt this unless your tank is at least 6 feet long, packed with hiding places (preferably "islands", or loose, separate groups of rock for the fishes to establish separate territories).> Do you think it will survive without any conflict between my Regal or Bicolor? I'm so very addicted with this species. Best regards and again thanks for the support Ignatio <I can certainly understand your attraction to this species! It's a great fish! However, the potential for problems by mixing different Centropyge angels is very great and very real! I think that you might be better off setting up a separate tank just for the Flame! I wish you success! Hope all goes well for you and the fish! Regards, Scott F.> Centropyge loriculus - 06/28/05 I have read in a book by a very respected individual that flame angels, while posing a threat to clams and LPS, pose little threat to SPS. In the experience of this group, is this the norm? <<I think you will find a wide range of experience in any group with this (any?) fish. I have kept these fish with clams and LPS corals with no problem at all...but that's not to say the next one wouldn't munch 'em all.>> I am thinking about adding one to my SPS tank as my wife just adores this fish. <<As do I! May be worth the risk my friend.>> All of my LPS will be moved to their own tank to meet their own needs. <<As it should be, regardless of fish <G>.>> Thanks. <<Regards, Eric R.>> Adding Another Angel? Hi, <Hello there! Scott F. here tonight!> As always, love the site. I have another Centropyge compatibility question. I have a 90g reef tank that has an adult coral beauty living in it. He/she has been in there for about 2 years. He behaves himself and got along well with my Potter's Angel until my Purple Tang disemboweled the Potter's. <Yuck!> The two angels had lived together for about 10 months. From what I understand I was lucky that the Potter's and Coral Beauty didn't fight to the death the day the Potter's went in. <You certainly were!> ( I witnessed the fight with the Purple Tang; that's how I know it wasn't the Coral Beauty ) That was 5 months ago and I am considering added another dwarf angel to the tank. Some of the latest data I have read suggest putting in a member of the same species, they may fight a bit but then one will turn into the opposite gender and things will mellow out. Any opinion on this? <It is a potentially successful practice if you are putting in a group of juveniles all at the same time. To try this with adult specimens is a potential problem, IMO.> I think it would be great to have a pair of Coral Beauties but with so many Centropyges out there, is there one that may be more compatible with my Coral Beauty? <In my experience, any additional Centropyge is a gamble.> One more question, my LFS has what has got to be the nicest, calmest, boldest Centropyge nox I have seen. <Wow- "bold" is unusual! I would not generally use this term to describe this shy species!> He has been there for 2 1/2 weeks and eats everything is sight and looks flawless. Any thoughts on adding the nox? Other inhabitants of the tank are a yellow Twinspot Hogfish, Dot-Dash Flasher Wrasse, a 5 year old Naso Tang, a 4 year old female Swallowtail Angel and the Coral Beauty. ( the Purple Tang now resides at my brother in law's ). <Wow! I'd say that your tank is maxed out already, to be quite honest. Another fish, particularly another Centropyge, is potentially problematic for all. Plus, you just don't know if this guy will end up being much more timid (a characteristic of the species) in this tank....Pass, IMO.> I tend to trust your judgment since most of the LFS in my area don't seem to know their " wrasse from a hole in the ground ". Clever, huh? <I thought you were gonna say "..A Wrasse from their _ _ _" LOL> Thank you again for your input. Rob Mancabelli Syracuse, NY <Well, Rob- I have to say that I completely understand your desire to get another Centropyge. One of my favorite groups of fishes. However, I think that the risk is simply to great in this situation. I'd enjoy the group of fishes that you already have in there, or contemplate the setup of another system! Regards, Scott F.> When Life Gives You Lemonpeels....(Lemonpeel Angel Aggression) Hi guys. <Scott F. your guy tonight!> First, I want to offer the obligatory praise (great site, lots of help, etc). <We're happy to be of service!> I have searched your site and think I may have a unique question. I currently have a 125g fish only system that I am slowly trying to establish. I know patience is the key and the hardest part. <Ain't that the truth!> The system has been running about 3 months. Now for the question: After all the proper cycle times, I added a 3" Sailfin Tang, a ?" Damsel (which I can't identify)- looks like a pinkish color with deep blue horizontal stripes throughout- and, about a week later, added a 3" Lemon Peel Angel. Everything was going great for a couple weeks. I then purchased a Picasso Trigger about 1" in size and a 3" Dogface Puffer which I quarantined for about 3 weeks. <Woah...I think that's a lot of bioload for this sized tank. I'd reconsider both of these potentially large and aggressive fishes, which produce a lot of metabolic waste!> After the quarantine when both looked healthy I added them to the main display. After about 3 days later I noticed that the Lemon peel was acting very aggressively to the puffer. Constantly nipping at his body and fins with his mouth. All the puffer does in defense is curl his tail and try to roll his underside toward the Angel. <This will change at some point. The puffer, although by and large mild mannered, is quite capable of defending itself! And, this aggressive behavior is not unheard of with Lemonpeels.> I immediately bought a partition and separated the Puffer alone with about 1/3 of the tank for himself. After about a week I tried to re-introduce the puffer last night but immediately got the same aggression from the lemon peel. First can you tell me if the Angel can actually do any damage to my Puffer? <Quite possibly. Maybe not apparent on the surface, but the constant stress of harassment will cause the fish stress which can lead to disease or other chronic problems> Second, will they ever work this out? <Perhaps, but the tank is really too small to sustain this population comfortably for an extended period of time. I'd consider the full adult sizes of these fishes when thinking about adding them to your tank. A much larger tank is really required in the future for this crew, IMO.> I have tried re-arranging the decor but that doesn't seem to help. I do not want to keep a permanent partition so I was hoping you guys could give me some ideas. I like both these fish and don't want to give either up. Would you recommend trying to trade the Lemonpeel for another Lemonpeel that might act differently being new to the tank? <I would not trade the fish, but I would consider a new home for it. There are no guarantees about a new Lemonpeel being any less tolerant of the puffer. For that matter, the tables might even be turned! I would not recommend keeping these fishes together in a tank of this size.> The other option I guess I have is to move my Lemonpeel to a 1yr established FOWLR 30gal system I have in my bedroom with a 2"maroon clown, 1" 3strip damsel, a skunk cleaner shrimp, emerald crap and assorted snails and a 2" coral beauty. <THAT is a recipe for disaster, IMO! The two Angels will have a horrible time co-existing.> I know the two dwarf angels won't get along so I assume if I move the Lemonpeel to the 30gal that I would need to move the coral beauty to the 125g (lucky him). <May or may not be problematic...> I hate to disturb my 30g as it is going beautifully and everyone there seems happy. Any recommendations would be greatly appreciated. <Personally, I'd reconsider the Puffer and the Trigger. I just don't like them in this sized system, and think that you'll have to compromise somewhere...The best advice I could give you is to get a much larger tank ("Gee, thanks Scott!") or a good trade to a hobbyist better equipped to handle these fishes. Good luck! Regards, Scott F. > Bruce Tupper Multiple Dwarf Angels-Worth The Risk? Hello all: <Hi there! Scott F. here today!> I have a 125G FOWLR (about 150 lbs. of LR) which currently houses both a Lemonpeel Dwarf Angel and a Rusty Dwarf Angel among its inhabitants. I also had a Flame Angel, but unfortunately lost it to the strainer dislodging on my power head and sucking him up...a terrible way to go. <Yikes...> I am determined to try again with the Flame. I am also considering introducing a C. tibicen at the same time. Both the Flame and the keyhole angels are bigger than the Lemonpeel and Rusty. I was going to purchase two "critter carriers" for each of the new angels and place them in the tank after proper acclimation procedures. In this manner, I was hoping that any aggression displayed by the current angels could be vented without being able to physically abuse the new arrivals. I would only release the new angels after any attacks had dissipated. If attacks continued, I would have the new fish already secured and I could return to the LFS. I would appreciate your thoughts on my proposal. Thanks, Mitch <Hmm...a really risky proposition, despite your safeguards, IMO. Introducing new Centropyge Angels into a tank containing established Angels is problematic at best. In nature, these fishes defend substantial territories, especially against their own species. When you add into the equation different species, the dynamic is really skewed. Conventional fish geek wisdom has always been that the best possible way to keep multiple Centropyge angels together are to add all the intended fishes at the same time as juveniles. When adding new Centropyge to established systems, many intrepid hobbyists will re-arrange the rockwork, to "shuffle the deck", so to speak, to give each angel the chance to establish a territory. Yes, I have seen and kept tanks with multiple Centropyge run successfully, but they have always been situations where the aforementioned "rules" were followed, or simply huge (6'-10' long, hundreds of gallons) systems. Even then, there is a risk. Personally, I would enjoy the angels you have and not take the risk, but it's your call. Good luck! Regards, Scott F.> Dwarf Angel Getting Eaten! Hi there. I've a 50g FOWLR. All water parameters are perfect. I've a 3" maroon clown, 3" Sharpnose puffer, 2" coral beauty angel, 4" yellow wrasse, 1" pajama wrasse, 1 very small blue legged hermit crab, 1 cleaner shrimp and 1 camelback shrimp. The coral beauty and pajama wrasse were the latest additions being introduced about 4 days ago. On day 2, I noticed that the coral beauty's dorsal fin (near its head where the fin joins the head) had been nipped. On day 3 it got a little worse. Today, there was quite a huge chunk missing, I could see the tiny bones of the fin and the pink of its flesh. The fish seems ok, normal breathing, feeding ok I guess (it's only been pecking at the LR - it was eating pellets at the LFS but since I got it, it prefers to nip at the LR, refusing pellets, brine shrimp and Nori), but it's always hiding in the rockwork. I'm wondering if one of my other fish has been nipping at it (I suspect the puffer). Who do you think is the likely culprit? Or could it be some form of fin rot or erosion disease? Thanks for your help. If it's some sort of disease, how can I treat it? Des <Could be the Toby, but just as well the Maroon... or both... this tank is too small, this angel should not have been added last... I'd remove it, place it in another system... Bob Fenner> Centropyge angels - Compatibility 4/4/05 Heya crew. Sorry to bother you all but I was just wondering if you could help me. I have a small aquarium. It is only 35 gallons but I want to keep two types on angel fish: A flame angel and a potters angel. I will be feeding the tank at least 6-10 times a day and there will be plenty of live rock for grazing. <35 gallons is barely big enough for one small Centropyge, let alone two. Even in a larger tank, a flame and potters would likely fight viciously. Potters angels are very delicate and have poor aquarium survival to begin with. Single specimens of the cherub angel or Brazilian Flameback are probably your best bet in such a small tank. Best Regards. AdamC.> Cranky Old Coral Beauty? Hello! I have a question about my reef tank. First here is the details. It is a 90g with about 80lbs of live rock. Here is a list of the fish: Coral Beauty [angel] royal Gramma 3 green Chromis dragonet A pair of Ocellaris Clown blue spotted Mexican Jawfish <Neat!> 2 cleaner shrimp The tank has been set up for about 7 years. My question is, we have had the coral beauty for a little over 4 years. Recently he has been showing aggression to everything in the tank, even the ones that were their before him. I have recently got 3 bar gobies and 2 Firefish, but he has picked at them until they died. Do coral beauties get cranky as they age? <Yes, can> I read about all the fish I get (before I get them), they said that they were alright together, Or are they? Do you think it is time to get him out? <Maybe... or at least to do some regular (monthly?) re-decorating of the tank... moving big pieces of LR about...> Everyone in there seems to be able to fight him off. I would really like to get a few more colorful fish but I do not want him to kill them. What would be a good Number of fish for this size tank? <Actually... considering species mix, sizes... dynamics, about what you have right now... unless that Centropyge settles down or is removed.> Any tips on what kind would be great! Thanks Shannon P.S. LOVE YOUR SITE! <Me too. Bob Fenner> Two Centropyge in One Tank? (1/24/05) Greetings! <Hi. Steve Allen with you tonight.> My apologies if I am an annoyance, as I'm sure this question has been asked to you good folks at least a dozen times. <Nothing wrong with thirteen.> I have 75-gal FOWOS (Fish-Only-With-Ornamental-Shrimps... nice term, eh?) with a healthy colorful Coral Beauty pygmy angel (approx. 3"). A rather boring tank to some, but I'm not quite ready for corals, and I enjoy watching the fish themselves so much I could care less. <To me, fish and motile invertebrates are more interesting than corals, though they are attractive in their own right.> I'm really interested in adding some bright red/orange coloration, and I would love to use a Flame Angel for that purpose. Colorful, has personality, hardy, and usually can be found at a good price. <I agree on all counts, as I have one myself, but they usually cost more than Coral Beauties.> However, almost all references that I've checked advise against putting multiple Pygmy Angels together, unless in a huge tank or, at best, introduced at the same time. From your own experiences, under any circumstances would you recommend doing this? <In this size of tank, I'd say it's unlikely that you can have both. With plenty of hiding space, they may "get along," but you probably won't get to see much of the flame.> I'm thinking it's worth a shot, but if it doesn't work out, then I really don't have any other place to put one of the angels. <Then I'd advise against it. Perhaps an orange-colored wrasse of the genus Cirrhilabrus or even a Bicolor Anthias may fit the bill better. Read up on these.> Thanks in advance for your help. -Bryan <Sorry to give disappointing advice, but I hope it helps.> Dwarf Angel Compatibility and Tank Capacity (1-22-04) Hi! <Hi there to you as well, Leslie here tonight.> Thanks in advance, you've all be so helpful. <You're welcome and glad to be of service.> I have a 75 gallon, 25 lbs live rock, 1 sand sifting star, 2 dozen scarlet reef, 1 coral banded, 1 clown (Sebae?), 1 coral beauty. Based on advice from my LFS I just added a Bicolor Angel. <Utto> After doing so, I got to doing some more reading and have learned that these angels might not get along with other dwarf angels, do you know if he would get along with the coral beauty? <It's always best to do your research first and avoid such challenges. Here is an excerpt from one of Bob's articles: "All dwarf angels are territorial, especially with members of their own species, then other Centropyge. Only folks with very big systems, four or more feet long, should tempt fate with more than one of the same species... and then only with plenty of cover and their watchful eye. Adding more than one Centropyge to your system? Do try to place them at the same time; or if that's not probable, make sure the new arrival is bigger (or female gender if discernible) and rearrange the decor to disorient the current tenants." Here is a link to some additional info on these fish http://www.centropyge.net/bicolor.html > If not, I'll probably be able to tell you soon enough :). <I hope not for the sake of the fish. The bicolor has a poor rate of success in captivity and less than ideal conditions will most likely not increase your odds for success.> My other question was about tank capacity, I would eventually like to add a Blue Tang, would that be too much? <No, I don't think so but your tank size borders on the low end of the scale for the recommend tank size for these fish. I prefer to see them in a larger tank.> My filtration is probably light, just an emperor 400 (I change the filters monthly and the activated carbon in the extra insert twice a month) and power heads with sponges. I realize that I should probably have a skimmer, I've just haven't had much luck with them in the past. <That's to bad. A skimmer would be ideal. Perhaps your poor luck with them in the past was related to the brand you were using. Please do consider giving them another chance. You might want to give another manufacturer a try. I like the CPR Bak Paks and the Remora's> Thanks so much for your help! Matt <You're most welcome, Leslie> - Pygmy Angels Controlling Majano Anemones - Dear WWM My name is Joey Conti. I am 13 and I have a 120g reef tank. I had an out break of majano anemones. I have heard many sources say you can control these pests with pygmy angels. I am wondering if you have heard this theory before and if the fallowing pigmy angels would be reef safe: Flame Angel Pigmy Angel Lemonpeel Angel <I have not heard this directly, but it makes sense that the stories would come about. These fish are constant "nippers", mostly at algae and fauna directly on live rock, but I have no definitive proof that these fish would control nuisance anemones. The other problem is, that if they do eat the anemones, what will they nip at once the anemones are consumed? Quite likely they will turn their attention to other things which could include your corals and clams. As for "reef safe", these fish sometimes do very well in reef tanks, other times not at all. Very hard to predict, but something you can hold off to an extent by making sure they have their primary choices for food and plenty of it. Please read up on pygmy angels here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/marine/fishes/angels/centropyge/index.htm > (I have many soft, SPS and LPS corals and a maxima clam. I know some angels will pick at them) Young Aquarist, Joey C. <Cheers, J -- > Coral Beauty Angel and Flame Scallop 1/6/05 Hello wonderful fishy folk! <cheers> Today's question is short and sweet -- I know that Coral Beauty Angelfish may be prone to nipping at clam mantles. My question is, do Centropyge (and particularly the coral beauty) tend to nip at flame scallops? <all have the potential indeed> I wasn't sure if all bivalves were a potential target, or just the very fleshy clams. I know that larger angels will pick on flame scallops, but I didn't see anything concrete on the dwarfs. Thanks! Deb <please do read/research here in the WWM archives and beyond for the reasons why your flame scallop is a very poor choice for aquarium use and I beg you to not buy anymore unless you set up a species tank, have an aged refugium (over 1 year old) and culture live plankters in an attempt to keep this animal. Nearly all starve to death slowly over a period of months in typical home aquaria. Anthony> Centropyge Angels Living In Harmony? Hi, <Hi there! Scott F. here today> I have two questions for you today. I currently have a lemon peel in a 92 corner tank that is half reef, half fish. Everyone gets along fine so far. It's a very non-aggressive tank. I want to add two more lemon peels. <Well...That's kind of pushing it in a tank of this size. It can be done, but it's usually tough, unless all of the Centropyge are introduced at the same time, preferably as juveniles. The tank should be loaded with nooks and crannies for the fish to hide and establish "territories". They are haremic, with one male living with several females. A large tank would give a better chance for success.> How can you tell the sex of them?? <According to Scott Michael, these fishes display what he calls "temporary" sexual dimorphism; the female is a more pale overall color than the male during courtship and mating. This won't be of too much help the rest of the time, but you may make the theoretical "stretch" to assume that males are generally more colorful than females. Females also tend to be less territorial than males, but they do take part in hierarchical systems. In fact, in the absence of a male, they can turn into males in a month or less! Nifty, huh?> Also, if it turns out I have a female, will she be okay when the second is added? <As stated above, these fishes do participate in dominance hierarchies-even the females. The smaller, or more recently introduced female will be dominated by the larger female.> My second question is about my former Flame Angel. I had both in the tank together. Key word being Had. They got along great. I added them at the same time. The Flame picked on the Lemonpeel the first few days and then got over it and they were fine for about a month. <That's great to hear; many hobbyists don't have any luck mixing different Centropyge angels, even in much larger tanks> Then one day, my Flame up and died. No reason that I could find. He was alive when I feed them in the afternoon and later that evening I found him dead on the bottom of the tank. I can't figure out what happened. I took him out immediately to check and see what could have happened. He had no fins shredded, no scales missing, etc... I tested my water immediately and all my levels were fine, no levels to the very minimum levels. I'm totally stumped. I was told that Flames dropping dead used to be common when they were caught with cyanide but he showed no signs. <It is still a problem with Flames from certain locales. Such poisoning can create a slow death for the fish. One day they look fine, and the next day they're history. Unfortunate, but not unheard of.> He was totally healthy. Could he have choked on the food?? (frozen SFB cubes) <Well, nothing can be ruled out, but I would lean towards the after effects of chemical collection techniques as the probable cause of death. It would be interesting if your dealer could find out the source of his Flame Angels. I wouldn't be surprised if this fish was from the Philippines, an area in which questionable collection practices still are used by some unethical collectors.> Thanks a bunch, Holly <Glad to be of assistance, Holly. I wish I had some more definitive answers for you, but I think that this might be the best most likely cause. Regards, Scott F.> Clams and dwarf angels? 11/26/04 Bob, <Anthony Calfo in his
stead> How are eibli angels with zoos? <dreadful... more risky
than most other Centropyge angels> I just saw a thread and someone
mentioned his eibli giving trouble to the zoos in the tank...Thanks.
<not a "reef-safe" fish by popular definition.
Anthony> Clams and dwarf angels... folks @ WWM, I need to find out how compatible are clams with an EIBLI angel. He is under quarantine now but I intend to put in together with the clam. I also love flame angels. I saw Anthony answering a similar question so I hope he can shed some light here. Thanks in advance... <Most Dwarf Angel species/individuals will leave Tridacnids alone, though they can nip them at times. Bob Fenner> Flame and Coral Beauty angels fighting -greetings from rainy Chicago! << Greetings from snowy Salt Lake. >> I did a stupid thing and took the advice of a LFS in my area that I've never visited before and now I have a coral beauty and a flame angel in my 54 gallon tank TOGETHER! (yikes). the new flame angel immediately started chasing my poor coral beauty whom I've had for a year and truly care about. << I wouldn't have been too worried about this, so I'm surprised to see such a problem. Especially caused by the new fish and not the old fish. >> I'm going to try and return him but I strongly have the feeling that they won't take him back and I just don't want to give a $60 fish away, (not that I have anyone to give him to). << Lots of hobbyists and clubs in the Chicago area. >> I also have a blue tang, yellow tang, blue devil damsel (small), and two Percula clowns. do you guys have suggestions or helpful advice to aid my dilemma. I care about my fish and don't want to see any of them die of stress. << Well if you can catch him, then I'd keep him in the tank is something like a breeding trap for a few days. If you can't easily catch him then I wouldn't do anything. The more you mess with the tank the more likely you are to stress the other fish. >> the flame angel will chase the coral beauty for a second and then call off the chase but he does do it frequently. the coral beauty doesn't seem distressed but then it's only been a day. I was thinking if I add some more LR for hiding spaces and just watch for a week maybe they'll get used to each other. the flame angel is slightly bigger which is another concern. I've gone through all your FAQ's and didn't find anything to help me in my situation. only advice I found was advice I should of looked for before I bought the fish, (won't make that mistake again)!! please, please, please help. thank you again for your site, I now know where to go for unbiased advice!! << Yeah I really think I would do nothing and just wait it out. Probably not what you were hoping to hear but that is what I would do. >> -thanks, heather << Blundell >> Flame and Coral Beauty angels -update- well the LFS took the fish back and gave me store credit which I guess is a good thing. now I'm going to go about this the right way. what would be a nice compatible colorful fish to keep in a 54 gal. FOWLR tank. I have a blue tang and a yellow Sailfin tang, (both about 2 inches in length), a small female blue damsel, two Percula clowns and a coral beauty. << Oh come on now you're missing the best fish of them all.... WRASSE! Plenty of options there. But honestly I think most gobies and blennies would be even better tank mates for you. >> I'd like to get an anemone some time in the future as well. any suggestions on a good new fishy. I'm still quite new to the hobby so right now I need help with the stupid stuff, :). thanks for the time all of u put into this. it's much appreciated. << Hope it all works out. Don't get an anemone. Corals are much easier to start with. >> -Heather << Blundell >> Flame and Coral Beauty angel compatibility oh and I forgot, if I were to get another smaller flame angel because I really do like them a lot, is there a chance of him hurting the coral beauty as well? << I think it is an okay risk if you have lots of live rock in the tank and also lots of sponge and algae for them to eat. >> or should I not even chance it? -heather << Blundell >> Flame Angel Compatibility Hi again, guys! :) <Hey Jeff, MacL here with you tonight> I have a 70g reef, 90lbs premium live rock (covered in coralline), 60lbs Carib Sea sand ( 4" DSB) with the following livestock: 2 Ocellaris, 1 Chevron Tang (juv), 1 Rainford's Goby, 1 Scooter Blenny (Blenny and Goby are my oldest fish; close to a year) few Emerald Crab's, Fire Shrimp, misc Snails (Turbo, etc), 3 Hermit Crabs and an Archaster Typicus. Corals: 2 Brains (an 'Open' and a 'Closed'), some pulsing Xenia (spreading and pulsing happily) and some Frogspawn. If it matters, I have a bit of Caulerpa mexicana and racemosa in there as well (which I plan on taking out when my refugium is complete; having a custom box built). Water Param.s: Amm/Nitrite/Nitrate - 0, PH: 8.3, Alk/DKH: 3.77/10.6, Phosphate: 0.1. Ca: 440, Temp: hi/low 79.4/80.2. Supplementing with ESV products (Ca, Alk, Mg and filter feeder food). I found a very very nice Flame Angel locally. It's about 2.5" in size and has really brilliant colors. It's been QT'd at the vendor's for about 3 weeks and just put into the display (though I would still QT it myself). All of my fish are very passive towards each other and the Rainford, Ocellaris and Tang actually "school" around a bit. It's very cool. :) I'd like to not interrupt the peacefulness of my tank, but would eventually like to add 1 or 2 (max) more fish. I plan on adding a Mandarin Goby after my refugium is in place and I move all of the Caulerpa there (which I've heard is bad to have in your main display for soft corals/LPS's for some reason?). I have excellent copepod production currently and a very fat Dragonet (the two of them cannot keep up with the pods I have!). Do you guys think there'd be any territorial issues or I'd have problems with a Flame Angel nipping at my LPS's/softs? I've read reports from people that have them reflecting both, so it's hard to say for me. <I have heard that flames can be tough on brain corals although I do know quite a few people who do have them successfully in their reef tank. I hate to say it but its a gamble. I personally love them and hope to always be able to have one in my tanks.> Thanks in advance for all of your help! <Good luck Jeff. MacL> Jeff. Dwarf Angels Hi Wet Web People <Hi Brett, MacL here with you today> Ok, maybe I have a problem, maybe not. I have a 70 gallon reef tank will lots of live rock/caves for the inhabitants - a mandarin fish, a purple Dottyback, a male Pseudanthias squamipinnis (he killed the female - no need to replace her right?)<I definitely wouldn't>, a maroon clown, and lastly a small Coral Beauty (Centropyge bispinosa). I have kept Centropyge bispinosa, Centropyge nox, and Centropyge loricula together in a 120 gall tank back in the past, with no problems. <Lot bigger tank with much more swimming and territorial room> So I thought that I might try another angel in my current 70 gal system with my Coral Beauty. So I added a White-Tail Dwarf Angel (Centropyge flavicauda) that I saw at the market here today... Ooops.. what was I thinking.. My coral went nuts chasing the White tail about the tank.. Ok, its 5 hours later now, and things have settled - a bit. Both have retired to the reef with no apparent damage. The aggression from the coral beauty seemed not that savage - no biting, just active chasing. <The problem is that with the stress you might end up with one or two or more than that ill fish. That would be my concern. Although they are going to have to establish territories. At this point is more a wait and see type thing I think. If they continue to fight I would suggest you pull one of them.> With my experience with the Nox angel and my Coral Beauty in the last set up I had, the coral got over it's aggression in a few days and everyone was happy. What are my chances of a repeat here? or did I just get lucky the first time? Should I re-arrange the reef to disturb the Coral Beauty's territory if no better in a day or two? <Rearranging will change the territories and might make things better because a lot of this is defense of territory.> Brett Moloney Bangkok Centropyge Aggression & Territoriality (10/10/04) Dear crew at WetWebMedia, <Steve Allen tonight> I purchased a sixline wrasse about 3 days ago, and the cherub pygmy fish started attacking the poor thing; is there any reason for these actions, will it stop, or is there a way to stop it without removing either of the fish. <I'm guessing you are referring to the Cherub or Pygmy Angel (Centropyge argi). This fish is well-known for its intense aggression and territoriality. It is one of the most aggressive pygmy angels in spite of its small size. It should be added to a tank last. The behavior probably won't stop until the Sixline is dead. Your only real hope is to remove the Cherub to quarantine, re-arrange the tank decor and let he Sixline settle in and calm down for a couple of weeks. Then you can add the Cherub back and things will probably be OK. If you want to add other fish, you probably ought to take the Cherub back and add them first, saving if for last.> Pygmy Angel Compatibility (8/8/04) Hello, <Hi! Steve Allen with you today.> I'm a newbie to the aquarium scene and I've been reading a lot, (Wet web media, saltwaterfish, TONS of books) and everyone has a different opinion on dwarf angels, some say that when more than one is housed in an aquarium "caution should be used" while others say its utterly stupid and yet even others say to go for it. <Well, I'd say the middle ground of "caution" is warranted. It really varies from one individual to the next. Tank size is a determining factor.> So with that in mind I've come to ask you, Could a Flame Angel and a Coral Beauty co-exist in my 55 gallon. Their tank mates would be a school of Chromis and a pair of clowns, and the setup is AMiracle wet/dry, Berlin airlift 60, 40lbs live sand, 52lbs live rock, and I'm thinking about adding a fuge as soon as I get my plan together. <Good idea, especially with angels. They like to pick at live food and will certainly benefit form a 'fuge.> So is it possible? <A lot of things are possible but not probable. One factor in my mind is the clowns. Are they big, aggressive ones (e.g. Maroons) or smaller, less-aggressive ones (e.g. ocellaris)? It might get crowded in there with a pair of big ones. Fifty-five may be a bit tight. I'd be more comfortable with 75-90. That said, and with plenty of rock hiding places, they will probably be fine if introduced together. On the other hand, why have two angels of rather similar appearance? How about a Long-nosed Hawkfish or a Royal Gramma?> Oh and I've attached a pic. <didn't make it> Sincerely, Willis <Hope this helps.> Gramma Compatibility Hi all!<Howdy, Cody here today.> After three weeks in quarantine my new Royal Gramma was put into my main reef tank (72 Gallon) two days ago. My tank is just over a year old and the few fish I have gotten along great. The problem is that my usually docile Coral Beauty is having a fit. The Royal Gramma headed for a hole in the rocks two days ago when put in the tank and is still in there. Any time she (he?) ventures a nose out the Coral Beauty flies at her and drives her back in. I've squirted some brine ship near the hole, but I'm pretty sure she isn't get much to eat. I rearranged the rocks around her hide out to try to lessen the territory claims the Coral Beauty might hold, but no dice. Here's my question. Will they get used to each other after a while? Should I just let them work things out? Beside the food thing I think the Gramma is safe and happy in her little cave. I thought about trying to catch the Beauty and putting here in the quarantine tank for a few weeks, then putting her back in the main tank. Would that help? Would she then be the "newbie"? She'll be hard to catch, but I think I can do it if it's a good idea. It seems to me that the Coral Beauty is reacting to the color of the Royal Gramma. The purple and yellow are very close to the same color. Do you think she thinks it's another angel fish like herself?<This would help out a ton. If you can't catch the angel I would just let them sort it out. They will probably be okay with time. Cody> Thanks for all your great advice and help! Jim C Mixing dwarf angels <Good morning Peter, MacL here> Hi, I have a 72 gal FO with about 90 lbs of LR. <Very nice.> I know that mixing pygmy angels is to be avoided except in "large" systems. However, I was wondering if a Flame and a Lemonpeel would work in this size system is introduces simultaneously. <in all honesty, I would suggest not doing it. You might be lucky and it might work but with so many lovely fish out there to put in you tank, why put two fish that might fight and bring stress into the tank. If its the color combinations you are looking at there are many other very nice and very similar choices> Thanks for the help. <Best of luck with this.> Bicolor Buccaneer Bites 'em!! >WWM crew, >>Aye, matey, hallo thar! >Are there any Corals that I can keep with a Bi-color angel? I removed all my Xenia because he started eating it. He does not touch the Zoanthids and Polyps. Are there any other corals I can keep that he will not nip at? Thanks, Chris >>Bicolors are a touchy lot, me laddy. Nay, I must say, there are none proven to be nip-proof whence under the lips of angels. Lo! There are those that be better than others - SPS corals shall refuse to walk the plank unless prodded forth, whilst LPS corals will turn tail and head for the briny deep as fast as we turn flags, Arrgh. Ye can expect your wee angel to give all sorts a try, a nip, and a taste. Clam, brain, any and all may come under scrutiny, only a few may pass muster. Arrgh! Marina, the Salty Maiden of the Seven Seas. Bicolor Buc - Did he Have a Go? >Thanks for the feedback Captain Hook! >>Argh, matey, that's CAPTAIN-ETTE! Hee, thanks for putting up with my fun. I've had my fish for the night, so my swashbuckling is over for the evening, as my belly is quite full. >I suppose the Zoanthids which [are] all over my rocks are poisonous, and that's why he never nips at them? >>Zoos can indeed be poisonous, and that isn't to say that he may not have *already* had himself a taste or two. It'll be a process of elimination, and confirmation that fish can't smell, seeing as how he went to town on those Xenia. Marina -Coral Beauty Compatibility- Dear Bob, <Kevin here in his stead> I have a 85 gallon FOWLR aquarium. The tank has been set-up for about 6-7 months with pretty good success. The current tankmates are a Yellow Tang, Singapore Angel, a Clark Clown (going to be replaced with 2 Percula Clowns), 3 small Yellow-Tail Damsels, a small Humbug Damsel, and a small Lunare Wrasse (soon to be traded in for a Yellow Coris Wrasse). I would really like a Coral Beauty, but before I get one I would like to have your input (I know mixing angels is kind of risky). There are two isolated rock structures with plenty of hiding spaces. <It is likely that the Singapore and the coral beauty will get along since they have completely different color patterns and body shape (Singapore angels are often mistaken for butterflies!). Good luck with the introduction! -Kevin> Thank you, Sam Reef Angel Compatibility I was wondering if I could add a Flame Angel or a Coral Beauty to a 55 gallon tank which contains the following tank mates: Ocellaris Clown Yellow Tang Royal Gramma Basslet Heniochus Butterfly Cleaner Shrimp Electric Orange Hermit Crab I've heard that these may become aggressive towards other species and I need some info to be sure that one of these angels is safely compatible with these species (I am only adding one angel). <A pygmy angel would work with this mix, but I'd be hesitant to add another fish to a tank of this size... that might cause more complications than the actual mix itself.> I would also like to know how hardy your these species are, because I don't to exactly pour $40 into an angel which will easily die on me. <By and large are fairly durable but all pygmy angels are not created equal. Regardless of the one you choose, they all need excellent water quality and a ready supply of live rock on which to pick at and hide among. Would encourage you to read here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/marine/fishes/angels/centropyge/index.htm Cheers, J -- > -Chewed up coral beauty!- I added a coral beauty angel to my 50 gallon tank just over a week ago. The tank has been established for nearly 2 years and has had just 2 green Chromis and 2 yellow tail blue damsels in it for about a year <Smells like established, aggressive yellow tails to me..> - no fish have been added or lost in that time. The coral beauty seemed fine right away, but I noticed after first night, one of his fins looked to have a piece missing. I don't see any of the other r fish bothering him. After day 2, a little more missing. Then for 4 or 5 days, no change <You can rule out fin rot here, it would be a steady decay> - looked fine. Today, the fin is almost completely gone. Could a damsel being going after him during the night? <Likely> Or could it be something else? <doubtful> Do I need to add some more hiding places? Fish looks healthy, good color, eating fine, and doesn't appear bothered by other fish..... <I bet if you isolated either the angel or both the yellow tails, the fin damage would stop. My advice would be to remove the YT's, although they're not as aggressive as most damsels, they're pretty well established in your tank. Get 'um out! I hope this helps, -Kevin> Help - I love this fish and don't want him hurt or to lose him! An Eye For Angels... Presently have one cherub angel in my 50 gal setup. I'm upgrading to an 90 gallon setup with sump and above tank refugium and have a few questions regarding keeping multiple Cherub Angels. <Sure> 1. Has anyone had any experiences keeping two or more cherubs? good or bad. <I've kept them in small groups (like 4 fish) in a 100 gallon tank. They were all added at the same time as juveniles, had plenty of room to establish territories, and did quite well. This does not mean that you will have similar results- but I can speak from experience on this one. They are, however, haremic, so one male can peacefully coexist with 2 or more females. Males will basically shred each other in the aquarium. > 2.How do you tell male from female. <External sex differences are very difficult to determine. For the Centropyge in general, some people think that the males typically will have more pointed anal fins than females, others will tell you that the colors are "sharper" in males...In he end, the behaviors will be a better clue, IMO. Do read up on this fish and others in the group on fishbase.org, or look into Centropyge breeding specialist Frank Baensch's work on the net...The material is out there-you'll just have to do a little digging> 3. What do you recommend for tank size to keep two cherubs <At least 100 gallons, unless you're starting with juveniles. As stated above, two males will beat the crap out of each other...not good!> 4. Are there any good web pages relating to cherub angels (I've done the basic web search and haven't come up with much) or pygmy angels in general. <Well, of course we have the Centropyge section on WWM, but I'd look into FishBase, or the Bishop Museum (HI) websites, which feature links to collected specimens and biotopic data. It will take some digging, but you can find stuff...It's a great group of fishes, and lots of work to be done on breeding them! Have fun! Regards, Scott F> thanks, Barry Gold Pygmy Angel in reef: Centropyge aurantius 10/10/03 I've got a weird problem I want your opinion on. I recently combined 2 20 gallon mini reefs into a 90 gallon tank and because I had a Centropyge angel in each I need to make a Sophie's Choice-type decision about which of them gets to be in the 90 (I could have kept one of the minis but its too much bloody work with the constant water changes-- I will have to find a home for whoever is not chosen). One of the original tanks had a flame angel with some hard corals in it (Bubble, Frogspawn, Alveopora, Blastomussa) and the other had a Golden Pygmy with Zoanthids, daisy polyps, and soft corals (finger leather, yellow leather). Now all of the corals are in the 90 and seem happier (maybe the better lighting, water quality and/or circulation)-- no visible evidence of chemical warfare as yet. <Ahhhh.... OK> Now I am stuck with the angel problem. I've had them both for about two years, so they're pretty well established. I would rather keep the Golden Pygmy, but am worried it will bother the hard corals (I've never kept it with any hard corals so I have little idea as to the likelihood). <the risk is present with all Centropyge angels. Rather pot luck> I work at a LFS, but know virtually no one who has kept this fish successfully, let alone in a comparable environment, and can't find anything on the web (message boards, etc). <hmmm... you need to get out more, my friend. Heehee... seriously. The fish is fairly new to the trade, but not hobbyists. DO visit the local, regional and if possible the national reef conferences like MACNA. All the best cutting edge info to be had there. The Golden angel is actually very hardy and one of the quickest to adapt to prepared foods in captivity among Centropyge. I do speak from experience with this lovely fish> Scott Michael says that large-polyped stonies are the species' most likely target. I'm guessing that if it does pick, it is most likely to pick at them in this order (from most likely to least): Blastomussa, Alveopora, frogspawn and bubble (I'm basing this guess on how noxious each species seems to be). <not so predictable... I suspect yours will eat the most expensive first instead <G>> This matters somewhat-- I've had the bubble and the frogspawn for several years, both thrive and are quite large and I actually would part with the other two in order to keep the Golden angel, but not the frogspawn or the bubble. Do you (maybe Anthony or Bob, though basically any of you) have any experience that might be relevant here? <nipping can be persistent or sporadic with these angels, but never predicted. You best bet is to keep the angel in a small inline vessel (for easy capture later) and test it with some sample corals before releasing it into the display proper> The flame has been with all of the corals without incident, so it is a safe bet, but the Golden is a prize. Ultimately I could try the Golden and take him out if there were problems, but prefer not to of course and want to go into this with as much knowledge as possible regardless. What would you do in my situation? Best, Derek Milne <I know of 2 C. aurantius in full blown reef tanks <G> that are not harming coral. Still... all are a calculated risk. There is no clear answer here mate. Experiment cautiously with the isolation tank. Anthony> Help with Hitchhiker ID and an Angel for Angel 10/3/03 Hi Fishy Friends! <howdy> First off, thanks again for a great site. Between all the literature and the super people on the forum, I've learned a whole lot in 4 months. <our reward <G>> My first question is about some kind of anemone (?) I got on live rock I bought about 2 months ago from an LFS. I don't know where the LR was from 'originally', so I can't help there. It's located down in a crevice and pops out in the light and retracts in the dark. It's been growing fairly quickly, but not unmanageable -it's about 1/2" in length. It appears to be some kind of anemone but is not the evil Aiptasia. Or I don't think it is. I've asked around the forums and nobody seems to know what it is; my only concern is that it might eventually get nasty towards the inhabitants of the tank (limited to a toadstool and some Shrooms right now). I like the little guys (there are 2), so I hope it's not a pest ;-) <the picture is not close enough nor the polyps extended enough to be certain... but it definitely looks like a coral to me. My guess would be a Euphylliid (like torch corals/hammers, etc). Please be sure to feed this animal fine minced meaty foods weekly or better> My second question is regarding a Cherub Angel. My husband is dead set on getting a Banggai Cardinal (tank-raised of course) for our 29 and I'm in love with the little cherubs. Would 1 of each be too much for a 29, assuming they were the only fish except perhaps a neon goby for cleaning? <no trouble at all for stocking... but do know that they are one of the least "safe" dwarf angels regarding sessile inverts. Cherubs are consummate nippers and nibblers (corals, anemones, etc)> It's got about 30 pounds of live rock and 20+ pounds of live sand. My thinking was that the cardinals don't swim around much, so the angel would have plenty of room to roam. Obviously, the cardinal would go in first and we'd wait on the angel for a bit - the tank's about 4 months old now. If you say no go, then I guess we'll get 2 cardinals and the hubby will be really happy. <still can add a second cardinal (they are easily sexed) and have them breed <G>> Thanks so much for all the great advice! Angel <thanks kindly... best regards, Anthony> Compatibility Questions Hi, Thanks for the quick response... but thinking more about it, will I have any problems with the mushroom corals and the coral beauty? A year ago she ended up eating a feather duster, as I didn't know it fell into her potential diet. Any problems there? <All Centropyge angels have a potential for coral nibbling, I like to think of it as a 50/50 chance. Good luck! -Kevin> Chris This Clown Isn't So Funny (Territorial Clownfish) Hello all, <Hi there! Scott F. at the keyboard! today> First of all, thanks for taking the time to help. <Thanks for taking the time to write us and share for the benefit of us all!> Second, kudos (or 'mad props' as the kids say) for offering this service. I know it's saved me a great deal of heartache and cash. <Glad to hear that! We have some great people here who love what they do!> My question is about a new Centropyge argi angelfish (1.5 inches) and his relationship with the false percula (tank raised - 2 inches) that's been in there for the past 6 months. The clown is terrorizing the angelfish. <Wow! Usually, it's the other way around, in my experience!> These are the only two fish in the tank. Also in the tank are 3 snails, and a striped cleaner shrimp. Here are the specs: 30 gallon (up and running since January) 20 lbs live rock (Fiji and Marshall island) 5 lbs dead rock (same as above) ammonia: 0 'trites: 0 'trates: <10 specific gravity: 1.023 temp: 80 bi weekly 5 gallon water changes <Awesome! A fellow water change junkie! I salute you!> Back to my problem: The angel did 3 weeks in qt just fine, and I added him to the display tank a week ago. Within the first couple of days I noticed a frayed pectoral fin, and a chunk missing out of his caudal fin. After some closer observation, I see that the previously stoic clown is now chasing down the angel whenever he comes within his line of sight. This prompted a rearranging of the 20 lbs of live rock that had been in since the tank's initial nitrogen cycle. <Good thought! This will often help alleviate some of the tension, by putting the fish on a "level playing field", with no one having the advantage of an established territory> Within a day, the clown is at it again. <Noticed that I said "often", and not "always"? LOL> At this point, I rush out to the fish store and purchase some dead rock to create more hiding places for the angel. <Another good thought> Which puts us where we are today. Plenty of hiding spaces for the angel with several caves that the clown can't fit in. The fins on the angel are filling back in / healing, but the clown continues his harassment. I've never seen this clown so active. The angel is fine when sleeping since he has a cave that my fingers can't even fit in, but if the angel grazes or swims past the clown - the chase is on. Luckily, the angel is a better swimmer and has plenty of hiding spaces. He loses the pursuing clown in a blink of an eye with all the caves in the live rock. I worry because of the clown's constant harassment, and the stress this may put on the angel. Is there any hope for peace? Thanks, Jose <Well, Jose- your reactions were correct, and your concern is legitimate. It's hard to say how long this can go on without the stress resulting in a sick or dead angel. My thoughts on this are twofold: First, consider adding one or two more small fishes to function as "dithers", helping to balance and deflect the clown's aggression from the angel. However, this does not always work, and you walk a fine line between success and overcrowding, so be careful. Second, you may need to remove the clown to another tank for a few weeks to let the angel "decompress" a bit, and then reintroduce the clown back into the tank (which you performed some rearranging of the rockwork) as the "new guy". It may work- and it's worth a shot! Good luck! Regards, Scott F> Angel or Demon? (Coral Beauty In A Reef Tank) Hi, <Hi there! Scott F. with you today!> I'm writing to ask an important question. I have a medium sized coral beauty angelfish, a cleaner wrasse and a ocellaris clownfish in a 29 gallon tank. I have recently turned my fish only tank into a beautiful reef tank. I have only a few mushrooms and a large brain coral in the tank along with about 50lbs of live rock and also numerous crabs and a few snails. I want to turn the tank into a beautiful coral reef. <An admirable goal, indeed!> I want to know what are the most compatible corals to place in the tank that are the least attractive and delicious to the coral beauty? Your help is greatly appreciated. <Well, in my experience, Coral Beauties can be some of the least inclined of the Centropyge angels to munch coral, but the possibility still exists. I'd definitely avoid most LPS corals, as they seem particularly tasty to Centropyge angels! I'd recommend the more "noxious" soft corals (as Scott Michael calls 'em), such as Sinularia, Cladiella, Sarcophyton, and Lobophytum. I do successfully keep some SPS species with them as well, with good results. I stop short of fully endorsing these fish for reef tanks, however. The possibility exists, particularly in a smaller system, that these guys could "turn" at any given time and start turning your beautiful reef into a FOWLR tank! Proceed with caution here> Lastly, I'm running an Emperor 400 filter with a powerhead for water movement a 24" AquaLight power compact (130 watts with built in fans and ballast/reflectors) and a SeaClone 100 protein skimmer. <Soft corals can do okay under this setup. You may need more current and regular use of chemical filtration media to help remove allelopathic compounds produced by softies> Almost forgot, if you can answer one additional question. My owners manual for my SeaClone 100 says I should close my air line and open it 3/4 to 1 1/2 turns depending on the level my water is above the protein skimmer. It does not tell me how many turns for my tank size and I'm stumped. My skimmer is about 3 to 4 inches below the top of my water and I've heard that a lot of bubbles coming from my skimmer is not good for my tank or fish. <No- it's not a good thing> However, when I went to my LFS the main reef tank in their store had a skimmer that was going crazy with bubbles. My skimmer turned to 1/2 turn is already producing some bubbles in my tank, but the tornado effect in the skimmer is very weak and not collecting anything but moisture in the collection cup. I've turned it to 3/4 turn and tornado effect has improved with no spurts of water being pumped out but an actual constant stream coming out of line. Can you tell me with the powerhead and the emperor 400 creating a pretty good flow rate in the 29 gallon should I increase the air/ water mixture to 1 or 1 1/4 turns even though I'm getting a considerable amount of bubbles from the 3/4 turn but still no collection of waste in the collection cup? Your opinion is needed in both situations ...........Thanks, LeBron <Hmm...Unfortunately, I cannot be of much help here, because I have no personal experience with this particular skimmer. This model has a reputation for being a bit touchy, in terms of adjusting to get a good skim. I'd play around with it a bit and just see what works for you, or you could contact the manufacturer and see if they have any good advice for you. You may want to post on the WWM Chat Forum to see what some of your fellow hobbyists have done with this skimmer to get better results. Good luck! Regards, Scott F> Coral beauty beats up porcupine puffer? Whaaaa?!! I recently purchased a coral beauty <Good lookin' fish>, and a while after that, after some research and a LOT of questions added a porcupine puffer. OK well the thing is, they were fine until about 8 days after i put the PORK in and i started to see the Pork's skin looking as if it had been torn off. Well jumping to many conclusions i thought it might have been a disease, i have been doing water changes on a regular basis and all the water perimeters are fine. Before taking him out i saw my coral beauty go up and bite him, and it looks as if she is the culprit in this mess....so my question (finally hehe) is this normal/common, or do i just have one evil coral beauty??? <Yes, coral beauties are generally passive with fish other than Centropyge angels.> what would you do? <Well, make sure that the puffer wasn't already sick. Any fish will take advantage (much to our dismay) of a sick critter. If the puffer was hurtin' then it is likely that the angel was simply capitalizing on a weak tankmate. Darwinism at its best. -Kevin> Thank you much, Karie Multiple dwarf angels in a tank? (06/21/03) Hello again, <Hi! Ananda here again...> Is it possible to have 2 dwarf angels in a 44 gallon tank?, flame and a coral rock beauty??? <Not recommended at all. Centropyge angels are generally hostile to each other.> Thanks for the 2 links on live kits!!! <You're quite welcome. --Ananda> Centropyge mixing 7/20/03 Crew: I have read that mixing Centropyge species in the same tank is a no-no, but I just have to ask about a specific combination. I am interested in the Flame Angel (C. loricula) primarily. In addition to that, I was hoping I could get away with the Cherub Angel (C. argi). My thinking is that their different sizes and colors would make it okay to have them both in a 55 gallon (48" long). I appreciate your time. Rich <with so many beautiful fish in the sea... I wonder/advise - "why tempt fate" by mixing congeners, conspecifics or other fishes likely to fight/compete. In this case, I will admit that you have a better chance of it working than with other Centropyge... but again, why tempt fate? My advice is to select only one. Kind regards, Anthony> Tempting An Angel I just bought a Bicolor Angel on Tuesday and it hasn't eaten anything. I know it is normal for a fish to not eat for the first couple of days but this guy is very active and swims all over the tank. When I put the food in he will act like it isn't there, swimming normally with no interest in the food. He is about 4 1/2 in. including his tail and I have tried brine shrimp, algae sheets, and krill. Should I try something else or just let him be? Thanks, Andy <Well, Andy- it's very important to continue tempting this fish with as many different foods as you can think of. I'd try to throw in a few small live rocks that have a nice growth of fauna and microalgae on them. You also might want to try some other frozen foods, particularly "Angel Formula" by Ocean Nutrition. I've used this food many times to tempt finicky Centropyge angels into eating a captive diet. Be sure to keep the water quality high, and the feedings varied and frequent. Hopefully, this guy will come around and feed...Good luck! Regards, Scott F> Centropyge mixing Follow-up 7/21/03 Anthony: I appreciate
your reply to my Centropyge question. <always welcome my
friend> A summary: you basically said C. loricula and C. argi may
work together in my 55, but "why tempt fate" when there are
so many other fish in the sea. <correct :) > A
follow-up, if I may: I recently returned my last remaining Damsel, the
Azure Demoiselle (Chrysiptera hemicyanea - seen here (my picture) after
Bob identified him for me a few weeks ago: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/chrysipterafaqs.htm
) to LFS after 43 weeks(!) in display because he got a little chippy
towards others, <heehee... cheeky monkey> maybe when he realized
he was the eldest occupant after the other damsel returns (sorry, the
damsels were used for cycling before I found your site - none died in
my care by the way - please be gentle :D). <no
worries... quite common to do> I was looking at the C. argi as a
"blue-to-purple-and-yellow-small-when-grown-up" replacement
for that beautiful damsel I had (*sniff*). I have been leafing through
my Marine Fishes by Scott W. Michael, but I can't seem to find
anything suitable. I was hoping something would leap to your
mind, relating to the fish of course! (hey, I can dream,
right?). Also, can you recommend a marine-fish-suitability
reference larger than Mr. Michael's? Thanks again and
again for your guidance, Rich. <absolutely...
fishbase.org It is the largest reference any of us are
likely to find, and its free on the web. Search by common name or
scientific when know. Or pick a genus that you are favoring and follow
the links to all of its species for a browse. Note that there is a link
for more pics on each individual page as well as links for diet,
reproduction, distribution, etc. Best of luck! Anthony> Pygmy Angel Hi WWM Crew, <Hi Matt> I have a quick question about compatibility that I would appreciate your advice on. I am thinking of buying a Flame or Coral Beauty Angel and was wondering if they would be compatible in the following tank? 30g 20lb live rock 1 Flashback Pseudochromis 1 YTB Damsel 1 Perc. Clown 1 Coral Banded Shrimp 2 Hermits This would be my final addition to the tank and all of the other residents have been in the tank for at least a month. Thanks in advance for your time. <These fish are really wonderful but they are variable in their response to tank mates, etc. I bought one some time ago and he is reasonable enough but he hassles everyone in the tank (Purple Tang, Clown, Blenny, shrimp, etc.). They are individuals and some get along and some don't. I wish I could provide a more concrete answer for you. Thank you so much for your support of WWM! Craig> Flame angel in reef Thanks for the ph meter answer. Turns out my system was 8.4 not 8.8. The meter needed calibration and cleaning. Coralline algae was covering one of the electrode ports. Anyway, all is fine. I have one question though... the xenia in my tank is my pride and joy. However, I've wanted to add a flame angel ever since I've been in this hobby. I've heard mixed opinions on how reef safe they are. <most dwarf angels are a decided risk... some more than others> What are the odds it'll be a problem? A nip or 2 on my xenia or polyps isn't the end of the world, but a total mauling would not be cool. Thanks once again. <hard to say, but easy to test... place small specimens of Xenia with the angel in the QT tank during the 4 week isolation period before adding to the main tank. A month of untouched Xenia in a bare tank is a very good test. Trade or rotate angels until you find a behaved one. Still no long term guarantee, but a good test/trick. Anthony> Angel In The Mix? Hi Bob, <Scott F. with you this morning!> Back to your site again as usual and thanks for all your help. I have a 60 gallon tank fish\invert only with live rock. I have a small panther grouper, 2 damsels and a small size yellow tang. I'd like to add another fish in there. About 6 months ago or so I added a coral beauty and didn't last few days. Yellow tang was too aggressive and stressed it out. I had to return it. Then I got a bicolor angel and that didn't last as well. I'd love to have an inexpensive angel family fish in my tank. <Well, you have to realize that the tang will probably "inspect" and possibly harass any new additions to this tank. By tang standards, it's a fairly small aquarium, and with the Panther Grouper (which can reach almost a foot in length), it's a potentially crowded one, too. DO think long-term about these fish, particularly the grouper. They can and do grow quickly if well cared for, and they can mess up tanks really fast with their heavy eating habits. He'll need a very large tank to live anything close to a natural life span, and will have to be moved to such a tank in the near future. I'm actually a bit hesitant to recommend adding another fish into this tank, but I suppose for the short run you could try. It may be best to re-arrange the tank's decor to break up the existing territories, perhaps reducing the tang's territorial tendencies a bit. The limited tank size will still be a factor, however, and occasional skirmishes will still occur. Just keep an eye on everyone.> >I get my fish from this place called Aquatic outlet ( http://www.aquaticoutlet.com) in Los Angeles. The reason I'm mentioning the place is because I knew that you were visiting LA's wholesale areas and I'm pretty sure you have probably been there. Great place, clean fish and people are somehow helpful except the owner....or he'll be very helpful if you spend more than $100.00 - $200.00.........hehe <Been there myself a few times. They do get large quantities of pygmy angels from time to time, but you do need to observe potential purchases carefully, and quarantine all> They have told me that the Flame angel would do ok in my tank. But again I didn't want to take my chances so I wanted to check with you. Is that fish aggressive enough to get along with my other fish? If not what kind of fish would you recommend for my setup, especially if I can add another angel family? <On paper, yes- it should mix well with your current inhabitants...but the tank size is going to be a continuing factor in any community dynamic. You may also want to consider the cherub angelfish (Centropyge argi). It's small, but feisty. However, its small size could make it a potential snack for your Panther Grouper when he starts getting larger (can you tell that I think this guy needs to be moved to a larger tank?). >Thanks again and Happy Holidays. Sam... <Keep studying and learning, Sam. I think that you can do well with this mix, but a larger tank has to be in the picture for the very near future. Good luck! Regards, Scott F> Flame angel and Trachyphyllia Dear WWM Cheers, my friend> In the new year I am thinking of trying a Trachyphyllia brain coral. <very fine, hardy, low light, sand-dwelling (free-living- never place on rock), feed 3-5 times weekly minimum with minced meaty foods... long-lived> I have one that has been reserved at my LFS for 2 weeks. I am going to pick it up in the new year. However I have a flame angel in my tank. He has been resident for about 5-6 months in my tank <hmmm... I see. Very good to hear about the hold on the livestock. Goes a long way for acclimatization into captivity (rather that frequent moves on import)>> I have read that a few other reef keepers have had trouble with this species nipping Trachyphyllia. I also currently have pulsing Xenia, Favia and Caulastrea (candy cane) coral in there. <yes... all are somewhat at risk of dwarf angels in general> These have all been left alone by my flame. Is there a chance he will nip my Trachyphyllia? <no guarantee, alas> Also I might like to add that I feed my angel on granular food in the mornings. <A Very concentrated source of food... good to hear> Its called tetra prima granules (red granules). if you need to wean marine fish onto dried food, this stuff is really excellent (if you guys get it in the USA). <agreed! An excellent staple and color enhancer. I believe that this product has gone through a marketing evolution of changed names over the years. First it was called Discus bits, then color bits... now prima? Perhaps I'm mistaken. Still... Tetra makes some very good dry foods. Thanks for sharing the tip!> Here's a pic of the tank by the way. Cheers for all your help. Regards, Jim <Happy holidays :) Be chatting soon. Anthony> Dwarf angel compatibility Hi David. The Bi-color has totally accepted the Coral Beauty. Here's the feedback to my following email.... just thought I'd share it with you. Thanks. <Great! Stranger things have happened IME. I hope the success holds...David Dowless> Compatibility questions To whom it may concern, I just purchased a 3" Coral Beauty for my 180 Fish and Reef Tank. I have had Bi-Color Angel in there for quite some time now. I knew the Bi-Color being in the same family (of Pygmy Angels) would pick on the Coral Beauty for some time. The Coral Beauty is also about 1/2" smaller than the Bi-Color. Right now the Coral Beauty is hiding behind one of the powerheads. He has been chased around the tank all morning to exhaustion...as I expected. My question... is there a chance that the Bi-Color will eventually except the Coral Beauty as new tank mate? <Always a chance but unlikely> The Fish Store Salesman somehow convinced me that the Bi-Color Angel will eventually give up the chasing and then become compatible with the Coral Beauty. <It will...as soon as the beauty is dead!> Is it worth waiting a few days to see if they can adapt to one another or should I just return him? <Your call. Try it but don't wait more than a week or so...the fish's health will suffer. Frankly, I would carry it back to the salesman and trade it in for either store credits or a new, more compatible fish> I don't want to see him get killed by the Bi-Color. <Me either> Tell me there is some hope here. <Always hope...slim chance of success> Thanks. <You're welcome! David Dowless> Compatibility To whom it may concern, I just purchased a 3" Coral Beauty for my 180 Fish and Reef Tank. I have had Bi-Color Angel in there for quite some time now. I knew the Bi-Color being in the same family (of Pygmy Angels) would pick on the Coral Beauty for some time. The Coral Beauty is also about 1/2" smaller than the Bi-Color. Right now the Coral Beauty is hiding behind one of the powerheads. He has been chased around the tank all morning to exhaustion... as I expected. My question... is there a chance that the Bi-Color will eventually except the Coral Beauty as new tank mate? <All are individuals with their own minds. If the beauty is accepted, it will be the exception not the rule. Don't count on this happening> The Fish Store Salesman somehow convinced me that the Bi-Color Angel will eventually give up the chasing and then become compatible with the Coral Beauty. Is it worth waiting a few days to see if they can adapt to one another or should I just return him? <The fish man sold a fish didn't he? You can wait a few days to let the fishes adjust to each other but don't let the beauty get too stressed. Its health will suffer> I don't want to see him get killed by the Bi-Color. <Yeah...Your call on this one. But don't wait too long. Trade him back to the guy that sold it to you!> Tell me there is some hope here. <Uhhh...Always hope but don't hold your breath too long> Thanks. <You're welcome! David Dowless> Reef-Safe Pygmy Angel? (Or-How Much Does Your Xenia Mean To You?) Do you see any problem with the Coral Beauty nipping the Xenia? <Well- I have to say, IN MY EXPERIENCE (!) that I have never experienced a Coral Beauty nipping Xenia. Which is, of course, not to say that your won't totally devour your Xenia colony within 2 days! An equal number of hobbyists will tell you that it's the worst mistake that you could make in a reef tank! Really depends upon the specific fish that you get. My tip when using Centropyge angels in a reef (hasn't failed me yet) is to select young, healthy specimens, and to keep them very well fed on a variety of foods. Not only do they adapt better to captive conditions and food, but there is a good chance that they have not yet developed a "taste" for your corals! Worth a shot!> Did you feed more than once a day to "keep" the coral beauty reef safe? <I feed all of my fishes twice daily, which works fine for me. The angels, in particular, spend a large part of their day foraging for microalgae on the rockwork, which I'm sure supplements the feedings. I guess it's never 100% whether an angel will ignore your desirable inverts, but I'm a fish nerd first (a coral nerd second!), so I developed my priorities a long time ago! :) > Is a 29 gallon QT enough for the angel/gamma or angel/blenny combo? <Oh, yeah- should be more than adequate! Good luck with your new fishes! Regards, Scott F> Cherub Angel and other questions.... Hi WWM crew..... I have a couple of questions concerning the Cherub Angelfish (Centropyge argi)....First of all, would it be o.k. in a 20H tank with 3 other fish? Inhabitants are:2 ocellaris clownfish(1-1.5"),and a Catalina Goby(1"). <I would not place this dwarf angel with two clowns in this small system> I realize this is a coldwater species, but he was in the LFS "tropical "tank for appx.3 mths.. and he's been in mines for 3mths.,so I guess I got a "rare" Catalina goby..... <It's life will be greatly foreshortened> Would a cherub angel pick on any of these fish or make my tank overload? <Likely the other way around> If I can't add a 4th fish, which would you recommend removing, so I can add him? <The clowns> Would it pick on my corals? (xenia, zoo's, mushrooms, bubble coral, candy cane coral, Kenya tree, GSP, sand polyps, or clove polyps) What's the diet? Also how big do these guys get? Any additional info. is appreciated.. BTW, filtration is 2 Skilter 250's if this helps...My tank also contains a lot of LR...... <Please read here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/marine/fishes/angels/centropyge/index.htm and the FAQs files beyond (linked, in blue, at top) re these questions. Bob Fenner> Clams and Dwarf angels 3/14/03 I would like to know if my maxima clam can live with my lemon peel angel and flame angel can you give me a rate where 1 is the lowest & 10 is the highest on the safety of my clam and/or 2 angels. Thank you <I would rank the lemon peel as a 3/4 (rather risky) and the flame as a 7/8 (rather reef-safe). The lemon peel with other reef invertebrates like coral however is even more dangerous. Some behave, but most are nibblers. They are one of the first dwarf angels to rule out of a reef tank when considering the genus. Best regards, Anthony> Re: lemon peel angel >not to worry my flame is in my 90 reef not my 125 fish. i might get a half black angel to put in with these guys as i have read a lot on how they interbreed. I'm not to positive yet. i still wont be getting any new fish for at least a month as i want to let the tank settle in more. >>Ah! Well then, it sounds as though you're on the golden track, so to speak. A month between additions is generally a fair amount of time to wait, this allows the normal q/t period as well as allowing the tank to adjust. >>I would expect the Eiblii and the lemon peel to get along fairly well (or more properly, to have little reason not to in a tank of that size), though I think we discussed that both get rather large for pygmy angels, on the order of a whopping 6" or so. If they're in a 125, I see no problems. Be sure to look up the Zebrasoma scopas, you'll see how (uh oh! Fish Fashion alert!) beautifully sublime its coloration is, which will match quite smartly with the coloration of the Eiblii. LOL! No, really, I'm not kidding! Marina Centropyge question Hi <greetings, my friend. Anthony Calfo in your service> My name is Frank. I'm from Holland (Europe) so please forgive any mistake in grammar I make. <no worries at all... good to hear from you!> How would you rate Centropyge eibli and Centropyge vroliki as reef safe with regard to corals and clams <Dwarf Centropyge angels are marginally safe as captive reef denizens. If your tank is dominated by sturdy, fleshy Octocorals (Like Alcyoniids) then I'd say that is a reasonably safe risk. If, however, you have a good many fleshy LPS corals which would not have as good survivability/recovery from nipped damage...then I would advise against it. I have kept both species in reef aquaria and had difficulties with both, but the displays had a lot of tempting Xeniids to eat <smile>> Thanks, Frank <kindly, Anthony> Coral Beauty Angel and Clowns Hi I was wondering if you could answer a question for me. We have a pair of Tomato Clowns and we just purchased a Coral Beauty Angel. The angel immediately kicked them out of their nesting area .What do I do? Are these compatible? <actually a very reasonable mix.. and it is better to have the normally passive angel more aggressive in the long run> Any help would be appreciated. <rearranging the rockwork sometimes confuses the tankmates and makes them more concerned with finding a place to sleep rather than pushing each other around. If no fin nipping...no worries> Thank You, Scott Caine <best regards, Anthony> Centropyge I have been told to only keep one dwarf angel per tank. <generally true... of same and mixed species. Only experiment in larger aquaria (over 100 gallons/6 feet long)>> But there are so many that I like. My local fish store has a 30 gallon reef tank setup with a coral beauty and a Flameback in it. <rare exceptions do occur but usually such mixes are irresponsible or at least unnecessary risks with living creatures> They say that the two fish have been in that same tank for about a year together with no skirmishes that they have seen. <even a blind squirrel finds a nut sometimes> I have looked at the fish and they are not marked up. So is this just a one in a million shot? <simply uncommon> Or do I just need to get the idea out of my head? <yes, please! So many other beautiful fish in the sea... why take the chance with living creatures?> If it were possible I would keep 3 or 4 different Centropyge in my tank. <that is honestly insane in anything but an enormous tank <smile>> A little advice as to what I should do would be great. I'm dead set on at least one Centropyge, but would like more. I just can't come up with what would go with a dwarf angel. <what you need is a 500 gallon aquarium, my friend <VBG>!> Thanks for listening, Mike <best regards, Anthony Calfo> Last Fish...I promise! Hi Robert, <<Hello - JasonC here...>> I was thinking about picking up a Flame Angel today and adding him to my 180 as the 'final fish'. I currently have the following... 2" Bi-Color Angel, 1" Velvet Damsel, a 1" Green Chromis, a 3" X-mas wrasse, a 7" Hippo Tang, a 6 1/2" Imperator, 3/4" Percula clown, a 6" Auriga Butterfly, 3/4" Neon Goby and a 1" bi-color Pseudo. That's 10 fish all living nicely with each other... (except once in a while the Imperator Angel chases & nips the Auriga Butterfly to keep him out of his area especially during feeding time), but for the most part the tank is pretty much stress free and with no parasites present for a month now... the neon goby and UV sterilizer seem to have done their job in cleaning the tank! I have always wanted a Flame Angel but I am concerned about adding this fish with the Bi-color Angel. <<That would be my concern too.>> I have read about the Pygmy Angel compatibility issues and know that I should not put 2 small angels in the same tank together. <<But this is a pretty large tank. How much live rock [read as hiding places] do you have?>> I asked a few LFS guy about this and he keeps telling me there will be no problems in having them together in my size tank. <<Famous last words from a local fish store.>> Will the bi-color angel accept the flame angel if introduced properly? <<You mean with formal introductions? "Mr. Bicolor, meet Mr. Flame." No, there's no easy way or 'proper' way to introduce this fish. It will work or not.>> If I get a much smaller Flame Angel is that better? <<Hard to say, but certainly a smaller fish will be more likely to suffer from the stress of being hassled by the bi-color.>> After quarantine, I intend on using a sheet of glass to separate a section of the tank where they can look at each other for a while to get used to each other. <<Uhh... this comment makes me think you don't have enough decor in your aquarium. I couldn't put a sheet of glass in my 180 without hours of breakdown. You'd be much better off with more live rock, which equals more cover.>> Will any other fish pick on the Flame Angel? <<Not on a normal day, but if it becomes weak or distressed everyone may pick on it...>> Any ideas or should I not add the Flame Angel? Thanks! <<I would hold off. If I've misread, and you actually have #180-plus of live rock, then things will likely turn out fine. If you don't have a lot of places for a pygmy angel to hide, things aren't going to end well for the newcomer. Cheers, J -- >> Angelfish compatibility Dear Bob: We have thoroughly researched the various angelfish varieties, but are still wondering which ones would be the most compatible with each other and how many we can put in our 30 gallon tank. Would a Lemonpeel Dwarf Angel, a Flame Dwarf Angel, and a Pygmy Angel get along, or would they be too aggressive? We already have two baby Common Clowns, some live rock and two anemones in the tank. Ideally, we would also like to add a Lawnmower Blenny and a Royal Gramma to make the community tank complete. Do you think this collection would work? Thanks, Bob! We value your advice. Sincerely, Revs. William & Laura Gentry <Thank you for writing... I really do like many of the Dwarf marine angels of the genus Centropyge... but would really only encourage you to have one specimen (of course of one species) in your thirty. Some of the Dwarf Dwarf species like Fisher's, C. argi, C. aurantonotus, C. resplendens... can/do mix rather well in small volumes, but to me it wouldn't be worth the damage and upheaval of constant chasing et al. to mix the ones you list. Yes, there is some possibility that you would find/chance a Flame, Lemon Peel (C. flavissimus) and whatever sp. you're referring to as a Dwarf Angel that would declare a more or less ongoing truce... but not a good enough chance. If it were me, I'd pick one of the three (for me the Flame, C. loricula), and put in the blenny and Gramma at the same time. Be chatting, your friend in fish, Bob Fenner> Pygmy Compatibility I have purchased 3 different marine fish keeping books, and each of them claim that you can keep more than one angel, or more than one tang, as long as they are a different species, different colors, different body shape. But, my LFS's say that it is not possible. I am VERY fond of the small Centropyge angel species and I would like to keep as many species of this genus as possible. I currently have only one dwarf angel in my tank, a coral beauty. I also have a yellow tang and may want to add another tang some day. Is this possible? <Marshall, this town's big enough for you, me and a variety of marines. Depends on size of system, lots of decor and their individual personalities. Place smaller, easier going species first. But sure, they're found in the same ocean aren't they? Bob Fenner> Pygmy Angel for Reef What angelfish can be suitable for a reef tank? I am talking a tank with SPS, LPS, and Tridacna clams. I would like to add some diversity to my reef tank and was hoping there was an angel that might do that. <I've got to admit, I've seen more than half of the described (88 and counting) species of angels used in reef tanks around the world; including the largest and most notoriously destructive. This being said, if it were me, I'd shy strongly on the side of "going with the smallest" first and foremost. The diminutive dwarf "dwarf angels" of the genus Centropyge attract me most, C. aurantonotus, C. resplendens, C. acanthops, C. colini, C. fisheri... and for a little larger size, or course, the fabulous C. loricula, the Flame Angel. A specimen from HI if you can find/afford it. But other species/individuals can be "tried". All must have their dietary and psychological needs met (don't laugh you browsers), and most importantly KEPT YOUR EYE ON for excessive nibbling on your pet cnidarians. If they're hungry or curious enough, yes, all angels will "sample" to a degree. Bob Fenner> 3 Pygmy Angels Bob, In my 120g reef I would like to add 3 angels. flame, resplendent (ascension cherub) and multicolor pygmy. Are they compatible and are any of them difficult to keep alive or have special needs? <These are three of my favorite Centropyge... no real special care... but where are you getting the Resplendent? Am curious... very few make it from the mid-Atlantic to the trade... and then very expensive. With lots of live rock, these should be gorgeous, though reclusive with each other. Bob Fenner> Dwarf angel question My question is in regard to how many dwarf angels you can I keep. I have an eibli angel and would like to get a flame and a pygmy. I have a 75 gal with about 100lbs of live rock. In the tank I have the eibli, a blue tang, and 2 green Chromis. My water checks out perfect. Would it be a problem to add the angels? Thanks for your time and help. <In this size system... with plenty of cover/decor (esp. your live rock) you should be okay with these other dwarf angels... but do keep your eye on them for the first few days they're introduced. I'd give you 90 some percent chance of having no compatibility problems.> Adding an Angel I have a 55 gallon live rock f/o tank, and wanted to add a half-black angel or a flame angel which would you recommend would work out best? Other planned inhabitants are a pair of false percula clownfish, 2 yellow-tailed damsels, and a yellow tang. I have 20 pounds of live rock and just ordered another 45 pounds from FFExpress a few days ago, I hear that some half-black angels like to pick at live rock is this true? Also what's some good foods for one? Thanks P.S. Loved the Book! <Both Centropyge angels are good choices... lively, hardy... it's a tough call... go with the one you like best color/pattern wise. And yes, all dwarf angels like live rock. A good mix of foods really suits the whole genus (32 species and counting!). Thx for the stroke... I like it too (thank goodness for editors!) Bob Fenner> Lemon Peel Do-Over Hello Bob: Well, it has been a little over a month since the Lemon Peel died an untimely death. My guess is that the Coral Beauty attacked the Lemon Peel. I am seriously considering (much to my wife's chagrin) trying another Lemon Peel. One thing puzzles me: In your valued response to my E-mail of a month age on this, you thought that the Coral Beauty would be, or be forced to be, the sub-dominant animal. By sub-dominant, does this mean that the Lemon Peel would be dominant, and would have attacked the Coral Beauty? And, if so, I would have expected the Lemon Peel to have survived. If I have totally misunderstood, please correct me. Thanks, Mitch <Your understanding is exactly what I intended by my statements... given numerous trials (same approximate starting health, size...) a Lemon Peel and Coral Beauty placed together, the former will generally become the dominant animal... occupying the better site(s) and space in the tank... However... starting now with the Coral Beauty, I would either get a much smaller Lemon Peel (Centropyge flavissimus) or a much (an inch or more) smaller individual... And if you can specify the location or origin, from Fiji... this is the current best source for this species. Bob Fenner> Dwarf angels I want to add 3 dwarf angels to my 125 reef. Flame, Atlantic Pygmy and a Multicolor. What order would you recommend adding to the tank or is it better to add all 3 at the same time? Also will my feather dusters or clams become snacks for them? <The Atlantic (Cherub, Centropyge argi) should go in first... as the true "dwarf" Dwarf Angel, the Multicolor next and a couple weeks plus later, the Flame. The Feather Dusters will likely be nibbled to distraction if not pieces... With any luck Tridacnid clams should be left alone by these small Angelfishes. Bob Fenner> Angel Fish We have a 58 gal. tank. What is your opinion of adding Lemonpeel, Flame, and Half Black Angels at one time? <Might work if they're all very small to start (like 2-3 inches), but not knowing what other livestock you have or intend, I'd have no more than two dwarf marine Angels in this size system. Bob Fenner> Dwarf Angels Bob, I have a 125 gallon reef setup. I would like to add Dwarf Angels. I am not sure which ones I would want but for sure would like to start with a Flame. What other Dwarf Angels would you recommend that would be compatible. I was thinking of getting a total of 3,is that too many? <The genus Centropyge are generally what folks refer to as most of the Dwarf Angels... and there are currently about 32 species... with only about a dozen or so available in the trade ... commonly. You can probably have three (of the same species even... a possibility) in your 125... and I, like everyone else, have my favorites... with the Flame at the top. Look at the Vroliki, Tibicens, Eiblii... and for the smaller, "pygmy" Dwarfs, the African, Cherub and Flameback... These are all top-rated (says me)... and should get along fine with your Flame. Bob Fenner, who has an article on Centropyge posted at www.wetwebmedia.com listing all the known species.> Coral Beauty & Flame Angel Dear Bob: Are the Coral Beauty and Flame Angel reef compatible? I had heard that the Flame Angel will eat Feather Dusters. And will they get along in the same tank? Thanks, Mark <Both are "reef compatible" in my opinion... maybe six or sevens out of a ten possible score... Yes, they both will/do eat live rock components, including the worms that are feather dusters if hungry... And the two species can get along in the same tank, if they're started small and the tank is large enough (let's say 75 gallons plus). Bob Fenner> Mixing Pygmy Angels Question: Atlantic Pygmy Angel, African Flameback Angel, Flame Angel and Coral Beauty, Will they get along in the same tank 135gal. 2nd Question: African Flameback and Brazilian Flameback which one is hardier or your choice with the other two coral and flame angel. Thank you. <Not happily or healthily in my estimation... the dwarf dwarf and regular size dwarf marine angels are territorial... especially with species that are similar appearing... IMO I'd limit a 135 to just one or two of these... and mix in some non-angels. The Brazilian (Centropyge aurantonotus) is tougher... Bob Fenner> Centropyge Angels Bob, I am thinking of adding a single Centropyge angel to my 180 gallon reef tank with 220# of M.I. live rock. I would like to find the species that is least likely to cause any damage to my inverts (clams, soft corals, hard corals, etc). I understand that there can be variability within individuals of the same species, and that feeding amount, type, and schedule can make a difference. I also know that many times this genus "samples" the inverts without actually eating them, and that they are "pickers" in general. Based on your experience, could you please rank the following Centropyge species by general likelihood of causing damage to corals? A. Flame (Centropyge loricula) (a nine... about the highest of the genus ranks) B. Flameback (Centropyge acanthops or aurantonotus) (8 to 9 good Dwarf-Dwarf species) C. Pygmy, Atlantic (Centropyge argi) (8-9 as above) D. Coral Beauty (Centropyge bispinosus) (5-6, best from Fiji) E. Fisher's (Centropyge fisheri) (6... not especially attractive this year) Any other good species? Thanks! Jim <Some, see my ratings of the Centropyge genus totally posted in a survey article archived at the URL: www.wetwebmedia.com under the name "Perfect Little Angels, the genus..." I really like these "ratings" sorts of questions. My replies on a scale of 1-10 (ten being the least likely to cause reef troubles), and notes are above. Thanks for asking. Bob Fenner> Dwarf Angels Bob- Would a Potters Angel and a Flame Angel be compatible in a 58 gallon reef? Also in the tank would be a Purple or Sailfin Tang and a Percula Clown, Yellow Tailed Damsel and a yet to be decided Goby/Blenny. Thanks, Rob <Not in my opinion... The Potter's (Centropyge potteri), Hawaiian endemic is hard enough to keep on its own... and though the Flame's (Centropyge loricula) geographic range overlaps the Potter's... they are not found together in the wild... in anything resembling a few hundred gallons of water... and the Potter's would likely be miserable... and perish... This species requires very peaceful/calm surroundings, and non-competitive livestock to do well... The rest of your fish list can mix together... but would encourage you to read the "Hawai'i" section of my latest book (A Fishwatcher's Guide to the Tropical Marine Aquarium Fishes of the World... A Regional Account of what's... best, available....), stored w/o much image work at the URL: www.wetwebmedia.com to hone your choices. Bob Fenner> Lemonpeel Angel... I recently went from a fish only to a fish/reef tank. I have an 80 Gallon system that houses 1 Lemonpeel angel, 1 Coral beauty angel, 1 scopas tang, 2 pearly Jawfish, 3 dwarf banana wrasses, 1 6-lined wrasse, 1 orange spot goby, 2 cleaner shrimp, 1 serpent star, 1 brittle star, 1 emerald crab, 1 green starburst coral, 1 Zoanthid (small button) coral, a few mushrooms and I believe a pistol shrimp (I hear him but don't see him). My Lemonpeel has been a problem of late. He is nipping at the Zoanthid. Therefore the Zoanthid is only opening up half and not looking too "happy". I have lots of Caulerpa algae there for the Lemonpeel and the tang to munch on. I feed them 1 time a day and he eats well, and nibbles all day. I have moved my Zoanthid around the tank, I have checked it for vampire snails. The Lemonpeel only nips occasionally so I don't think he is the only problem. I had a xenia (tiny little frag) in my tank for a while, but I got a red algae bloom that covered it up while I was sick and couldn't clean my tank. he didn't touch that, or any of the small Zoanthid frags I have added. The colony he picks at is green, but he ignores every other coral. Any ideas? My wife loves the Lemonpeel so if I have to get rid of anything it would be the Zoanthid, but I am wanting to add more corals and don't want it to end up being a prime buffet for the fish. Also would a clam do well with the fish I have? The tank is lit by 4 - 48" VHO tubes (2blues and a 50/50) thanks. Chris Madsen <Well, you might try adding some more/different live rock... with more sponge material on it... the Fiji premium would be my choice... and feeding the animal a few more times daily might help... but once this "habit" develops (a fish picking on a given invertebrate), it is very hard to change the pattern... And this Lemonpeel might leave other types of corals alone, but maybe not...A giant clam species could be cultured in your system. Bob Fenner> Mixing Pygmy Angels Dear Bob, I would like to know if it is possible to mix pygmy angels in a 75gal. tank. I have one in a 30gal. reef but he seems, to be losing weight because I only feed the tank periodically. I also have a 75gal. fish only tank with a flame angel and a pygmy angel and would like to put the other pygmy in the 75gal. where he could be fed more frequently. there's also about 70lbs. of live rock in that tank. with standard lights. if it's possible could I move him in this tank and if necessary to add more pygmies to make a school. if that would work let me know. when I say pygmy's I'm referring to the cherub angel. thanks, Ron from R.I.. <I give you good odds of these Centropyge Angels mixing together okay enough... and definitely would move the Cherub (C. argi) either to this setting or add live rock to its thirty to provide more forage. Bob Fenner> Coral Beauty Hi Bob, I planning to buy a coral beauty. But I afraid that the reef tank mate might attack it or vice versa. What I afraid is that my Domino will attach the coral Beauty because this Domino is extreme aggressive. My tank contains: 1) one 4 inch yellow tang 2) one 3 inch brown tang 3) One 3 inch flame angel 4) One 2 inch bicolor 5) One 4 inch brown bird fish 6) One 2 inch Domino 7) One 1 1/2 inch Dascyllus 8) One 1 inch Yellow-Tail Blue Damsel Coral 1) Some green star polyps 2) Close and Open Brain 3) Hammer Coral 4) Colt Coral 5) Some Mushroom 6) Sun Coral and Dendrophylliid 7) some Button polyps 8) Leather 9) Frogspawn Coral , tooth coral, torch coral, bubble, 10) Pagoda Coral 11) Elegance Coral 12) two sand anemones and one tube anemones 13) Some feather duster worms Q1) Do you encourage me to buy this coral beauty ? <Maybe... if this tank is at least a hundred gallons... space enough for two Centropyge species> Q2) My Domino had turn it color from black to partly white one it front portion (head to part of body). What is happen to him ? <This is a natural color change with age/growth... take a look on FishBase or the WWM site under Dascyllus trimaculatus> Q3) Will the Coral Beauty be picking on my coral listed above ? <Hopefully not, but it, and the Flame may someday> Q4) Do you think that my 4 feet about 60 gallon tank is overstocked with coral and fish ? <Yes> Q5) Any other colorful reef fish to recommend ? <None for this system... And I would give the Domino the heave ho... Get rid of it... trade it in... it will cause more trouble as time goes by> Thank you, Danny C <You're welcome. Bob Fenner> Centropyge vroliki in a Reef Mr. Fenner Great web site, but I was still wondering about Centropyge vroliki. I've found in many resources that like all dwarf angels one must take care in adding them to a reef tank. I was wondering if you had any personal experience C. vroliki or know someone who has. <Have much experience with this Centropyge... a good aquarium species, and as far as Dwarf Angels go, one of the less likely to become "nippy" to invertebrate life...> Also, would the coral nibbling problem be helped by adding the angel before any coral was placed in the tank. <Hmm, not to my experience, first or other hand... better to have rest of system up and going first> My though is that the angel would be conditioned to take food items offered it and grazing on live rock and then be oblivious to the addition of corals at a later date. Of course an argument against this hypothesis is that being wild caught, coral is already (and permanently) ingrained into their behavior. Matt Erck <Good question... methinks a great deal of "flexibility" (learning) is at work with many fish groups... the Pomacanthids for sure. Bob Fenner> Dwarf Angels Hi Bob, I read your comments with great interest. One comment you have made is to keep only one dwarf Angel (and to avoid Potter's Angel - a sentiment that is shared by many people). <Hmm, just one Dwarf Angel... likely of the genera Centropyge, Genicanthus... per a given size, type system... large ones can definitely accommodate more species> How does tank size fit in? I have a 300 gal. reef tank with one Flame Angel. I want to add a Coral Beauty and a Fisher's Angel. Do you think the three of them will get along in an 8 foot tank? <Should be fine... and interesting... they will interact with each other... but very likely with no negative result> How about this -- If I added a giant clam, do you think the clam would survive? <In this size system, very good chances these small Angels will ignore the clam. Bob Fenner> Thanks, Dale M. Dwarf angels Bob, I was wondering if I could keep a C. nahackyi, C. loricula, and a P. imperator together in a 150g live rock only system. <Should go/get along for a good long while, start the Emperor smallish> and I was also curios if I could collect my own C. nahackyi from the wild <If you're skilled, in the vicinity, have the tools... Please read over the "Marine Livestock Collection" sections: http://wetwebmedia.com/marcoll.htm> and what type of permits I would need to do so. <Depends on the country... check with the government agency/ies there. Often better to have a collecting company aid you, likely help ship the collected livestock to you, a dealer for your pick-up once back home> its a 150g with a 50g refugium 225pounds of live rock 175 pounds of live sand any info you could give would help thank you Michael Camacho <Bon voyage and hunting my friend. Bob Fenner> Stocking Pygmy Angels Bob, <<JasonC here, Bob is away diving/taking pictures.>> I have a 50 gal. corner tank running for 4 months. I have actinic blue/white lighting, 75 gallon canister filter, 40 pounds live sand, 37 pounds live rock, 200 watt submergible heater, powerhead and protein skimmer. Ammonia 0, Nitrate 0, nitrite 0, Ph 8.2, salinity at 1.019 and at 78 degree temp. <<ok>> My live stock contains 1 Banggai cardinal, 3 Firefish, 2 green Chromis, 1 4" Maroon clown and a 2 1/2" flame. With the Maroon and the Flame, the Maroon went after the Flame and immediately set-up camp in the middle of the tank under a nice covering on LR. But the Flame there started to fight back and after a day or so they both were getting along. I just added a nice, from Fiji, Coral Beauty. The Maroon again squared off with the Coral Beauty, but settled down. (An occasional chase here at there, but the Coral stands up for itself). My problem is that the Coral Beauty now seems to be bothering the Flame and chasing him. The Flame now has set-up camp in the corner of the tank, but the Coral seems to be more curious and will chase the Flame if it sees it. (few times will it ignore it) Is there something I can do? Remove the Coral for a few days and then re-introduce? I was told from several shop owners that Angels are compatible, but like people, they can have different behaviors towards one another. Will the Coral eventually settle down. Or is the tank two small to have two dwarf angels. <<in my opinion, this tank is too small for two dwarf angels.>> I did have a potter and a coral before without any problems. <<suggest you do some reading on pygmy angels: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/centropy.htm >> Thanks <<You are welcome. Cheers, J -- >> Centropyge Angels and Reef Tanks Hi Bob. Your site continues to provide such useful information to us all. Thanks again! <You're welcome. Thank you for the boost... helps during the day while building sites further> I finally was able to catch and remove my beautiful blood red hawk, and return him to my LFS after (sadly) losing a Pseudochromis, a blenny, a small damsel, a Jawfish, and several pieces of fin from several other swimmers. Boy, was he wary, too, but finally entered a clear acrylic trap. Ya Hoo! <Congrats> Anyway, I have been able to introduce a number of pretty new fish, and the stress level throughout the tank is markedly reduced. <yes> My question is this: my tank is a 150 reef, with lots of live rock, and numerous soft corals (Shrooms, encrusting gorgonian, polyps, Zoanthids, xenia, etc.). I also have 3 different macroalgae growing well, and I regularly feed my tangs sheets of the seaweed select. I would really like to add a Flame Angel, and a Coral Beauty. They have some beautiful, eating, healthy, smallish (3"+) specimens at the LFS. They are both in separate tanks with some soft and hard corals. The gentleman with whom I most frequently interact at the LFS has said that they have not been picking at the corals at all that he's noticed (unlike a lemon peel and some other one he had). Do you think these could be added safely to my tank? <In your size, type (livestock make-up) tank it's a definite good probability that little to no damage will occur> Is there anything that can be done to reduce the risk of them going after my corals? (The other fish in the tank include a couple of tangs, some gobies, a school of Chromis, a handful of clowns, a damsel, and a couple of cardinals. Inverts include crabs, snails, coral banded and cleaner shrimp, and a pretty maxima clam. <Keep them fed otherwise...> Thanks for your advice on this matter. Jim Raub <Be chatting my friend. Bob Fenner> About Centropyge Dear Mr. Fenner, do you think that Centropyge could be considered good fishes for reef aquariums? <Some species more, better than others, yes> Are they really dangerous for corals and other invertebrates? <These Pomacanthids are found with all sorts of corals and other invertebrates in the wild.> I ask you the same about great Pomacanthids like, for example, P. imperator, P. paru etc. <Same statements apply. Have seen these and most all other species of large angels kept in large to huge reef systems. Please read: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/marangel.htm and beyond. Bob Fenner> Kindly send your precious reply to: Tks a lot in advance. Regards
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