FAQs on Centropyge Angelfishes
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Angelfishes for Marine Aquariums
Diversity, Selection & Care
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Centropyge deborae 8/15/16
Dear Sir/Madam,
It has been a while since I contacted wwm, but I have just recently
discovered, after a friend sent me a link, that the above-mentioned fish
was named at WSI, although I have no animosity towards the Smith's, I am
a little upset that I personally collected this fish in 1994, before WSI
set up in Fiji, and although I thought it was a different fish from the
other Centropyges, I was told it may be a variant phase of the coral
beauty, it is quite sad that they claim to have discovered it.
<I know of this fish, the Smith's collectors first gathering this new
species... It is "the rule" that such namings are "date regulated"; that
is, the first "acceptable", "scientific" description and publication
stands as the original. I would state that there are VERY likely other
Centropyge in mesophotic depths (one can guess more likely areas by a
cursive study of
zoogeography), and that for sure there are other Labrid and Anthiine
species found about the Great Sea Reef. Consider getting on out, making
collections and sending same to folks, institutions that do such
"naming".
Cheers, Bob Fenner>
I look forward to hear from you
--
*Peter Savona*
*Waterlife Exporters (Fiji) Limited*
Re: Centropyge deborae 8/16/16
Hi Peter,
I just got this copied to me from Bob.
I know how frustrating it must be to think you might have discovered
something only to find out later that someone else has claimed it.
As Bob points out, it is not about who saw it first but who takes the
initiative to go through the long and tedious process of getting it
scientifically documented. This process usually takes about two years
and many specimens must be supplied to the scientist to insure it is not
just a one off or variant. Only after the DNA is conclusive matching it
against other closely related species and several samples are provided
to prove separate identity can the "new" specimen be named.
In this case there was another famous scientist who also "discovered"
this same fish before 1994 when he was a professor at USP. I am talking
about Dr. Bruce Carlson and he actually has a video of a pair C. deborae
mating which also appears on my web site. Bruce is a good friend of mine
and we laugh about how he thought it was different but brushed it off as
a variant and instead concentrated on another fish from the same reef
which was also a new discovery that later became classified as the
Cirrhilabrus marjorie (named after his wife Marj) which was found on the
same reef. We often joke about how we both have fish named after our
wives found in only one place on earth so far as we know. Up till now
this fish has only been associated with Bligh water area so I am curious
if your sighting was in Suva bay.
Just recently I thought I had another new discovery only to find out I
was looking at a Cirrhilabrus nahackyi and then there is the other angel
on my web site that still have not been confirmed as a new specie and
some scientist believe it to be a variant and some say otherwise. Take a
look at this as I compare it to the C. heraldi for size and swim pattern
side by side.
All the best,
Walt
<Ahh; thank you for your complete, civil response Walt. Much
appreciated.
Oh! And see you and Deb soon here in San Diego at the upcoming MACNA do.
Bob Fenner>
Re: Centropyge Deborae /Peter
8/18/16
Hey Bob,
How are you, been a while, I hope you are well, truth be told, Walt is a
good man, (that is why he is Cc'd as well), and his explanation is fair,
yes I do understand in principal, the reasoning, but* I must admit I
find it wrong in principal, that a fish is named to anyone other than
the diver who collected it, at the very least, and Ideally to the first
discoverer
is not the norm!!.*
<Mmm; "dem are da rules"; and makes sense that a "science type" does the
naming; as they are responsible for adequately describing. The times
I've been involved in such... from collecting, supplying specimens on
up; the
"namer" has sought out my input for the name itself.>
I do have a photo somewhere, but I really cannot say much beyond that,
as I am not a scientist, or have the money or facility to do such
things, maybe if it was in Charles Darwin's time I could have got away
with it, lol.
And no Walt it was not in Suva.
Thanks, and regards
Peter Savona
Waterlife Exporters (Fiji) Limited
<Thank you Peter. Hope to see you about. Cheers, Bob Fenner>
Re: Centropyge Deborae /Walt
8/18/16
Hi Peter,
<Hey Walt, BobF kibitzing here>
Thanks for the nice words.
Not to beat a dead horse but I must point out one simple fact …. Without
documented proof of discovery there is no such thing as the one who saw
it first. You must realize that even though I believe you to be an
honest person there are many who are not. The fact remains that Dr.
Bruce Carlson actually saw it first and has documented it on video but
he brushed it off as a variant and he is an expert. This actually
happens a lot and that is why the proof of finding must be documented so
meticulously with spine and scale count (the old way) and in recent
years with conclusive DNA testing against other closely related species.
I also had to prove that there were no Centropyge nox anywhere in our
waters which it so closely resembled. Then multiple specimens needed to
be supplied to prove it was not just a one off.
All of this work and effort is supplied by the applicant for
classification and the time and effort is very consuming. Finally, when
the scientific authority has conclusive proof that it is a different
specie they are able to name the fish. The original name picked for this
fish was Centropyge fijiensis but they asked me if I would prefer
another name and I chose to honor my wife Deborah. Also the fact is that
several divers were involved in the collection but they had no idea it
was a different specie. I recognized this possibility and the fish
“belonged” to me since they were paid by my company so I had the right
to follow through with the expensive and time consuming exercise of
getting it named.
On another note, if you ever find another fish you believe to be
different I will be happy to show you the ropes that I followed and
perhaps there is a savonei out there somewhere. :)
<I'm very sure there is/are. I saw a few undescribed species while up in
Labasa>
Also, did you spot this in Bligh or up north? It was first sighted by
Bruce in Bligh near Namana but we first collected it North West of Raki
Raki but we now collect them in Bligh off of Nabawalau. They are very
plentiful up there where we collect more than 100 in a day but we do not
do this too often because, to be frank, they do not sell very well
because the color is not that interesting to the aquarist. We only
collect them about 3 – 4 times a year and that is all the market will
bear.
Also please look at my web site and you will see Bruce’s video of a pair
of C. deborae mating but what I really want you to see is the other
“different” angel I have there. We have found two of these fish several
years ago and the scientist is waiting for more specimens but I have not
been able to find any more. Dr. Richard Pyle and Jack Randal say variant
but Bruce is on the fence and Dr. Gerald Allen is also not sure. I have
heard there were other collectors in Suva (now long gone) that also
claim to have seen many of these but there is no proof other than I did
see it on live aquaria web site and it did not come from me since I only
sent mine to the scientific authority that I worked with before. It
could be a variant of C. heraldi (as some suggest) but I doubt it since
I have seen three specimens exactly the same and the size and swim
pattern is very different than Centropyge and more like Genicanthus.
Please let me know if you have seen anything like this in your waters.
There are many variants of heraldi, bicolor, lemon peel mix with black
tails or black splotches but this is very different and precisely marked
on each specimen I have come across which is not typical of variants.
See here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MJIPY4t4IYo
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MJIPY4t4IYo&feature=youtu.be> &feature=youtu.be
Deborae pair here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dnj0JHsAIzI
Take care Peter, right now I am in LA getting ready for MACNA.
All the best,
Walt
<Thanks Walt. See you soon. BobF>
Re: Centropyge Deborae 8/22/16
hi Crew, Bob, and Walt,
Sorry late reply, and thanks for all the explanation, all the best
Peter Savona
Managing Director
Waterlife Exporters (Fiji) Limited
<Cheers Peter, BobF>
Need ID please,,, Centropyge... cross?
2/1/16
Hi Bob,
Is this a Venustus Pygmy Angelfish?
<At least partly I believe. Have shared on FB, looking for others input>
We aren't sure because of the markings
on the anal fin. What say you?
Thanks,
Jan
<It's gorgeous... don't know if it's simply an aberrant Venustus or a cross.
Thank you for sharing.
Will hold onto this email and report if there is further input. Bob Fenner>
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From FB: 2/1/16
Lemon Tyk, others; what do you make of this Venustus Angel pic? Just an aberrant
individual? A cross you've come across?
Lemon Tyk 2/1/16
Hi Bob Fenner. Not a venusta (although the nape and posterior dorsal
markings are highly reminiscent). I was just discussing this with Brian D.
Greene about a week back. We know this fish is definitely Centropyge heraldi,
but aberration or hybrid, we're not sure. Some literature suggests C. heraldi x
C. nox, and I can kind of understand see that happening. The body profile is
slightly taller in this fish (very elongate in heraldi). The convoluted
squiggling on the anal fin is also unusual. While C. heraldi has this, it is
usually quite nascent and difficult to see. The weird thing is, this phenotype
has the ability to lose the black almost completely. While not all of them do,
it certainly is possible. So the question of hybrid vs. aberrant is somewhat
equivocal (?) perhaps? All guesswork without molecular analysis.
Like · Reply · Just now
Bob Fenner 2/1/16
Wow! And to think years back there was discussion that C. heraldi was a nullum
nudum! Thank you for this. JanL note.
Lemon Tyk 2/1/16
FTR, both nox and heraldi have very similar fin counts. I tried
comparing this against the two and found nothing really conclusive....
Re: Need ID please 2/1/16
Thank you, Bob. Feel free to share...
Best,
Jan
<Ah; thank you Jan. I see you've seen Lemon's comments. Surprised to find this
labeled as a Herald's. Shades of Earl S.!
BobF>
Re: Need ID please 2/1/16
Yes. Thank you for your help. LOL!!
J
<Welcome. B>
Re: Need ID please 2/1/16
https://reefbuilders.com/2014/12/05/black-tailed-centropyge-heraldi-numerous-confusing-variations/
<I still think this might be a cross. B>
Re: Need ID please 2/1/16
I don't discount it being a cross especially when we see fish like mandarin
cross breeding because of over fishing.... Nature still gifts us for our
greed...
<Thus far... B>
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I Saw an Angel, but She Didn't see Me..
What is This Fish? Or, "OMG it's Gorgeous!" Hey
Bob, <James> Saw this while I was at the Okinawa aquarium -
and can't figure out what it is? It's a pygmy, about 2.5
inches. Got any ideas? <Yes... a very nice pic, individual
of Centropyge interruptus, the
Japanese Dwarf Angel.
BobF> |
|
Dwarf angel question 03/26/07 I
purchased this dwarf angel as a half black angel, however, I
believe it may be a Eibli/Half black hybrid. Could you
give me your opinion? <I think you're
right...> If it is a hybrid, how rare is he? <Mmm, "kind
of"... there are numerous crosses within Centropyges... just
not often collected...> how much does he usually
sell for? (I got him for 25 bucks) and is there an increased level
of care for him? <A bargain... Most places I know of would be
twice or more this> Thanks in advance,
-Brian
<Welcome. Bob Fenner> |
|
Golden Pygmy Angel Hey crew! A LFS was
having a huge sale on livestock and tanks yesterday. I went there to
just look.. (yeah right) and when I got to the fish section the very
first fish I saw was a Golden Dwarf Angelfish. I have never seen one of
these nor heard of them. The price tag was $90... <A bit steep. My
thinking was the Flame Angel is the priciest among this
species.> ... and they had 30% off live stock so I could not
say no. I really cant find a lot of info on this. I have looked on this
website and found little as well. So could you guys give me some info
on this fish? Are they a hardy fish? Are they rare to see in home
aquariums? <Larry, most of the pygmy angels are fairly hardy.
I'm thinking what you have is a Rusty Angel. Here is a link with
some pics. See if any of these look like yours. The link does have much
to offer on the pygmy angels. http://www.wetwebmedia.com/centropyge2.htm
James (Salty Dog)> <<Mmm, if you go there James, you'll
find this is a Centropyge aurantius. RMF>>
Golden Pygmy Angel Hey James! Thanks for
the link. I did find the my angel. Its on the pt1 the 3rd pic down. It
does says its a Golden Pygmy Angel. At my LFS the Flame Angel goes for
about $50. I did find another Golden Pygmy Angel at another LFS and
they had it for $100. Anyway thanks for your response.
<You're welcome. James (Salty Dog)>
Re: possible hybrid I caught a angelfish
and it looks to be a hybrid angel a cross between a flame angel and a
coral beauty. Was wondering if it has a name and if it has
been discovered before? <Mmm, a coral-flame angel? There are many
examples of Centropyge crosses. Don't think I've seen or heard
of this one. Maybe give a look at the newest Allen, Allen and Steene
Angel/Butterflyfish book... or a quick jaunt through the scientific
literature. Bob Fenner> Terry
Re: Centropyge nahackyi VS multicolor Hi
guys, Just like Bob Fenner said, they are 2 different fish. I asked
Richard Pyle this back in December, he's been out having
fun................Looks like I will want to get both and add them to
my 29. John Dawe aka Dr. Kevorkian to all fish & chipmunks <Rich
guy to his friends. Bob Fenner>
Fish Identity I am looking for the name
of, and more info about, the lovely red & white striped angelfish?
pictured on the front cover of A Guide To Angelfishes &
Butterflyfishes. I can't afford to buy the book just to answer this
question, and I haven't been able to find a copy to look at
locally. Can you help? <The fish in question is commonly referred to
as the Peppermint Angel, Paracentropyge or Centropyge boylei I
believe.> Thank you, Tom Berry <You are welcome. -Steven
Pro>
Picts of Chaetodon nippon and Centropyge
interruptus (Note: post FishBase links) Hello Bob, I've
referred to your WetWebMedia site so frequently that I felt compelled
to contribute and give something back. I see that you have been missing
some images for a while so after a quick search, I was able to locate
some. I hope you will be able to get their permission to use them.
Chaetodon nippon:
http://www.FishBase.org/Summary/SpeciesSummary.cfm?genusname=Chaetodon&speciesname=nippon
Centropyge interruptus :
http://www.fishbase.org/Summary/SpeciesSummary.cfm?genusname=Centropyge&speciesname=interruptus
.. Toby <Thanks for this effort, offer. Am a collaborator with
FishBase, but will settle here with adding your, their links where
these images could/should be on WWM for now. Let's go out there and
make our own! Bob Fenner>
Coral beauty or Yellowfin? Bob et al, I
recently (6 weeks ago) added what I thought was a Coral Beauty, only to
see on your site that it may be a Yellowfin or moonbeam dwarf. How can
I be sure? <You should be able to distinguish them from the photos.
Please see here for additional pictures
www.fishbase.org/Summary/SpeciesSummary.cfm?ID=10974&genusname=Centropyge
&species name=flavipectoralis> My guy looks more like the guy in
the Yellowfin pic, and has the bright yellow pectoral fins, also bright
blue dorsal fin, blue tail and blue head, a yellow body with blue
stripes. <The yellow body part is off for this fish. All the photos
I have ever seen show a pretty dark body. There is a lot of
hybridization amongst Centropyges. Perhaps you have one. Feel free
to send us a picture if you can get it, something in the 400 KB
range.> Your description "good fish for medium aggressive
fish-only set-ups" kind of concerns me. The Yellowfin is currently
the only fishy inhabitant of a 55 gallon with some mushrooms. I'd
like to add some more softies in the future (I have 4x48"NO
fluorescents). I also have a gold striped maroon clown freshly in the
quarantine tank. Do you foresee any problems? <No> I've been
watching for some nips at the mushrooms, none yet, keeping my fingers
crossed. <LPS corals would be in more danger along with Xenia and
feather dusters.> Any tankmates to suggest? <As per most
Centropyge.> It would also have to be DSB safe, no sand sifters
eating my pods. <Not a problem with this fish. -Steven
Pro>
Centropyge ID I ran across your
descriptions of these guys on WetWebMedia while trying to identify my
newest acquisition. I have had no luck in my attempt however - and I
thought you might shed some light. Unfortunately I don't have a
camera/scanner etc. so a good description is all I can offer. This guy
is about one inch total length, he is a deep blue color - nearly black,
he has an underlying (still shaded by the deep blue color) rusty/orange
color on his face, where C. argi would normally be yellow. The eye is
where this fades into the deep blue, and the eye shares a little of the
orange color, the ring in his eye is orange. The caudal fin is yellow
which fades to clear at the edges much like C. acanthops. The pectoral
and anal fins have a bright blue band at the bottoms. There are no
other markings on the fish (stripes on the rear fins etc.). My guess is
that it is some variation on acanthops - but the lack of any brighter
color above the eye bothers me. I would say it was argi without
question (much darker in the face) if it weren't for the yellow
caudal fin. I am perplexed - is it possible that I have a hybrid here?
Could this be a juvenile coloration? Or is there some other guy that I
haven't found in my research. Also, he was sold to me by a local
merchant as a damsel from the damsel tank (2.99 - what a steal)...they
were in a Philippine shipment as far as I can tell. I am positive it is
an angel, however:) If I can give you any other info to help...let me
know. Thanks for your help, and I will continue to recommend your book
to beginners at the LFS I work at. Shawna Gunnarson <Huh,
interesting... and good description... From the P.I...? Does sound like
this may possibly be a juvenile Centropyge flavicauda. Take a look on
FishBase for some more images.
http://www.fishbase.org/Photos/ThumbnailsSummary.cfm?ID=5664 There are
a few damsel (yes the family) possibilities as well... like Pomacentrus
chrysurus... but as with heels, and wounding, time will tell. Bob
Fenner>
Re: Remember my Mystery Centropyge? Not
such a mystery anymore it seems. After doing some more detailed
searching under all of the Centropyge names I came up with a picture of
my fish...I first found one in Pablo Tepoot's picture book guide to
indo-Pac fishies...and I also found the one I am sending. My fish is
more purple and has a brighter orange...but this is definitely him.
Identifiers point to him as C. flavicauda, although he bears little
resemblance to other pictures I have seen of this fish, including the
most commonly cited pic. in Burgess. I would probably have to mutilate
the poor little guy to find out for sure, but I'd bet that this guy
is a different fish than the flavicauda in Burgess. But now that I have
bored you to tears I will end up with the fact that whatever he is he
is very happy, and will soon be a resident in my new 135 reef. (more
sand I need MORE SAND>>> sorry, the insanity is setting in
now. Maybe I'll talk to you later about something that is actually
useful to the rest of humanity...:) but until then...happy fishkeeping.
Shawna Gunnarson <Ah, not so insane (or you're in good company,
and plenty of it at least). And this fish is/can be quite variable...
and is a good to great dwarf-dwarf Angel... Be chatting, Bob
Fenner>
Re: Centropyge ID You know...if I have to
wait to find out what it is...then I'd rather have it be a juv. C.
interruptus if it's all the same to you :) What I don't
understand is how anybody could think that an angel is a damsel...he
really doesn't look or (more importantly) behave like one at all. I
will let you know if he ever changes over...if not, he's still a
very interesting little guy...always busy picking at some part of my
reef. .. (If you ever find any angel that's "reef safe"
I'll eat my sock:) (and no dead ones don't count)) Hope you
have a nice Labor Day holiday. Shawna <Well stated and
taken... Embarrassing as it may seem to admit, there are Damsels (yes,
family Pomacentridae) with "this and that Dwarf Angel" common
names and vice versa... and I have been "on location" only to
miss them camera-wise because their behavior and appearance seems so
"other family"... Ah well. Good holidays to you as well. Bob
Fenner, who is "reef safe", but definitely not an
angel.>
Resplendent Dwarf Angel Howdy there Bob, I
was on your site and came across the Pygmy Angel page and of course I
just had to check them out < s >. I just received a Golden and a
Multicolor, and am expecting to get hold of a C. joculator in the near
future. I noticed you are in need of a picture for the Resplendent. you
are more than welcome to use any of the photos off my Resplendent Page
if you wish. the addy is;
>>http://www.aquarium-design.com/fish/resplendent.html <<
so, when are we going back to Hawaii...or any other tropical island in
the south pacific < s > ? Jim Stime Aquarium Design <Thanks
for the pic off Jim. And am off to southern Japan over Toikeydaze,
but/and will venture out anytime you have the resources. Keep in touch.
Bob Fenner>
Picture of Centropyge Colini Hello, My
wife and I are avid reefkeepers and big fans of your site, and we
couldn't help noticing that you didn't have a picture of the
Centropyge Colini. After quite a bit of waiting we've managed to
get a decent shot of the one that lives in our 230 gallon reef.
We're sending it along to you for use on your site, if you like.
The only thing we ask in return is credit for the photo. <Ah,
certainly. Thank you. Posted> We also have some small 5-second video
clips of the colini going about his daily business. (he eats like a
pig!!). Let us know if you'd like to see them and we can email them
to you. <Someday soon my friend... we will have video> Thanks for
all the great work on the site and in your writing! Sincerely, Evan
McLaughlin <Thank you for your participation. Bob
Fenner>
Angelfishes for Marine Aquariums
Diversity, Selection & Care
New eBook on Amazon: Available
here
New Print Book on Create Space: Available
here
by Robert (Bob) Fenner |
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