Re: Neal - Help My Goldfish Bandi 02/09/09 Thanks Neale! <Unfortunately he's "out"> Here are better (recent as of today!) photos but still not the best (bad camera) photos, hopefully they help. I treated (based on what I saw and was told by the owner of this aquarium shop) her/him (really him? wow...) with Fungus Cure (I was going to do the General Cure for parasites <Mmm, I would use neither of these here> but was not sure and when I told the owner of the store, they said sounds like it could be both but do the fungus cure 1st!) so the color of the tank water is green hopefully you can make it out. <Are you referring to the growth on the forward edge of this fish's left pectoral fin?> Also as to the growth - all it has done was get bigger! Never went away or got any smaller and they have been there for about 1 yr straight... and today I noticed that she has some deep stress marks on her fins right at the base - where the growths are. Any info would really help the poor fish (and me). FYI: I normally change about 25% of the water every 2 weeks - and if I let it go 1 month (or more - which is hardly ever but my bf has let it go longer than 30 days in the past) have changed up to 75% <I would change a quarter or so out weekly... Is what I do with my goldfish systems> I treat with the following products: * AmQuel * Cycle * API Aquarium Salt <Mmm, not necessary, or advised to use such salt/s on a continuous basis> * When needed Alkaline Buffer (to raise ph) by Seachem I feed my fish: Hikari Lionhead sinking pellets (About 5-8 small pellets per day). <Mmm, and I'd expand this diet... to include greens at least> I have a 70 gal AquaClear filter and use their products (carbon, media, sponge - should I start using the ammonia remover filter packs? Is the Amquel not enough?) <Yes> I just tested (using Mardel 5 in 1 test strips) and here are my levels: Nitrate: 40 <Much too high, by at least twice... I'd keep NO3 below 20 ppm> Nitrite: 0 Hardness: 120 Alkalinity/Buffering: 180 ph level: 7.2 Any suggestions? (\ /)( . .) C('')('') Sylvar <Yes... I suspect that this growth is viral... in hobby parlance, that it's "Lymphocystis"... and that much like common warts in humans, that some physical stimulation (along with improved water quality and nutrition) may spur this animal's immune system to defeat it... I would carefully, gently scoop/net out this goldfish, and scrape off a good bit of this growth with a fingernail... while the fish is underwater in a container outside the system... and possibly daub the site with a mercuric compound (e.g. Merbromin, Mercurochrome...) on a "Q-Tip"... and place it back in the main system... Do read on WWM re Lymph, Nitrate and means of lowering, limiting it... and goldfish nutrition... Oh, and please keep us informed of developments, questions, concerns you have. Bob Fenner>

Re: Please Help My Goldfish Bandi Could it be a Flexibacter infection? Sylvar <Flexibacter, what we often call Columnaris or Mouth Fungus can be a nuisance among Goldfish. It usually starts as slimy, often discoloured growths on the mouth and face. It's called Mouth Fungus because it looks like fungal decay. It should clear up nicely when treated with (reliable) Finrot medications. Now, contrary to what Bob said earlier, I'm not aware of Lymphocystis being common among Goldfish. But a very similar disease called Fish Pox (Cyprinid Herpes virus) is common among Goldfish and Koi, and looks fairly similar. Usually what you see is something like hard wax on the body and fins, as if a candle was dribbled on the fish. It's viral, so essentially untreatable, though there are medications supposed to help. It usually goes away by itself, and whether or not its caused by the environment is debated. One thought is that temperature is a critical factor. In any case, it usually isn't fatal. Cheers, Neale.>

Re: Please Help My Goldfish Bandi Yeah I did not think it was but I am racking my brain to try and cure or help this poor fish. I just sent another email a min ago, please respond. And I really don't think it is Fish Pox. There is nothing that looks like that on her. It is more like 4 of her scales turned white. 1 seems to have cleared about 80-90% but there are still 3 other scales effected. Should I continue to treat with the 2nd dose of fungus cure? Sylvar <For want of anything better: treat successively for Finrot and for Fungus. Re: Finrot, most medications should deal with Mouth Fungus at the same time. If using an antibiotic like Maracyn, understand it treats one subset of bacteria; if the infection persists after full course, switch to Maracyn 2 and try again. Organic dyes tend to work on all (external) bacteria equally well. Fungus can be treated alongside in some cases with the same medication (e.g., eSHa 2000) but otherwise finish the Finrot medications, do a big water change, and then run the Fungus meds. DO NOT discontinue any medication halfway through. ALWAYS finish the full course of meds. NEVER combine courses of medications at the same time UNLESS you explicitly know they are safe to use together. Cheers, Neale.>

Re: Neal - Help My Goldfish Bandi You got it! And I made a mistake the "growth" I 1st made a comment about was not on the pectoral fins, it was actually a white patch. With the fungus cure, <Mmm... I wouldn't "treat" this fish for "fungus"> it seems to have diminish but just faintly! I don't want to do the 2nd treatment with this fungus cure if that is not what she has. I am not sure what to do because it is now at the 48hr mark when I am "supposed" to be adding in the 2nd dose. I will start doing more cleanings for sure! And am getting a testing kit for the ammonia - I will also get one of those filter inserts to remove it. Did you see the white patch on her (it is a her right? <No> I think Neal said it was a boy but if this is (which is what I thought it was) Lymphocystis that it would have no barring on the determination of sex correct?) side? <... no> That is what I was using the fungus cure to get rid of. Please get back to me a.s.a.p. I am leaving in about 30min to go get some things from the aquarium shop. (\ /) ( . .) C('')('') Sylvar <BobF>

Re: Neale - Help My Goldfish Bandi   2/11/09 As of now the ONLY thing I have treated the fish with was "API Fungus Cure" I did do the 2nd dose. <Finish that course of medication before starting any more. This only treats fungal infections. Not Finrot, and not Mouth Fungus (a bacterial infection), and not anything viral. Do not pick and choose how many doses you want to use (unless you're a vet or an MD of course).> And that was yesterday - I just did a 13% water change (because the nitrate was at 40 or at least this test kit seems to show that - is there any test kits that don't cost an arm and a leg I can get that actually give accurate reads? <The margin of error is fine for our purposes. Goldfish are tolerant of nitrate up to 50 mg/l or even higher, so not really a big deal.> Not like these strips which say "Nitrate 0 - 20 - 40 etc. It makes it hard to tell sometimes...) and added about half spoon of buffer plus to bring up the ph since it was a bit low. Here are my current levels: <Please understand the pH is immaterial, it's the HARDNESS that matters. Aquarists often cling to pH because it's easy to understand, but the reality is that it doesn't really tell you very much. It's like judging someone's health by their weight; unless you know their age, height, gender, occupation, etc., it's not really all that useful by itself. Goldfish like hard water, and that means aiming for a hardness upwards of 10 degrees dH ("moderately hard" to "hard" on whatever general hardness test kit you are using). If you get the hardness right, the pH will go to the right level all by itself.> 2/10/09 10:50am (PST) ammonia 0 nitrite 0 nitrate 30 ph 7.5 alkalinity 140 hardness 120 Temp is 61 degrees. Salinity is 3/ with a specific gravity of 1.002 <Hmm... Goldfish don't really need salt.> I am going to do a 75% water change tomorrow (which will be at the 48hr mark which means the meds ran their course) and add the carbon. I was told by Rick from GoldFishConnection.com to do a 75% water change to remove all meds, treat for flukes (he said because of the flashing it is parasites, but the fish does not always swim sideways on the gravel, just sometimes - mainly during the day) with Aqua Prazi and that the fish should be treated with Medi-Gold for bacterial infection. He also suggested I NOT change out the gravel at this time, and to use river rock and only a thin layer. <Okay, we're getting a bit crazy here. A 75% water change all at once is a bit much UNLESS you are ABSOLUTELY sure that pH and hardness are going to stay the same before and afterwards. I don't know "Rick", but I'm sure he'd agree with me that if you don't know if the water chemistry is stable, changing that much water would be nonsensical. 25% a day, 50% tops, would be my recommendation. Aqua Prazi is a medication for worms and flukes, I believe, and as such utterly irrelevant to treating an external bacterial, fungal and/or viral infection. Fish will "flash" for a variety of reasons, and most commonly it IS NOT worms or flukes, it's almost always either irritation (ammonia, chlorine in the water) or else early stages of Ick/Velvet with the parasites damaging the gills. Medi-Gold doesn't declare what antibiotics it contains, and to be honest it makes more sense to *know* what you're using that to add stuff in the hope it'll work. Folks will sell you all kinds of stuff, but there's no point buying medications until you've identified the problem. Over-medicating is as likely to kill a fish (or human!) as anything else, because you have no idea of the interactions between the drugs.> Any other suggestions? Also is 75% water change (after today's 13% water change) enough to then run another cycle of meds? No matter which meds I use? Or should I put in the carbon and wait a couple days? This patch has been on the fish for a few months now so waiting a few days would not be too much, though I want to clear this up a.s.a.p. <Please understand it's impossible for me to follow what's going on here. You appear to be soliciting information from at least two different sources, and while that's fine, it makes it really difficult to recommend a course of treatment. As I've said, mindlessly throwing carbon, salt, worm-killing medications into the system without any particular logic isn't going to help. There's an order of probability in the sort of fish sickness you described initially, i.e., fin/skin discolouration and decay. The list runs firstly through environment stresses, then through bacteria, then fungal infections, and then to viral infections. So the best way to treat the fish is systematically consider and where appropriate treat each of those. Check/fix the water quality. Run a suitable and reliable antibiotic/antibacterial, for gram-positive and gram-negative bacteria in that order (Maracyn first, then Maracyn 2). Recognise fungal infections by their cottony, thread-like filaments, and use an anti-fungal. Viral infections are untreatable, but review Fish Pox and Lympho as the two most common in ornamental fishkeeping.> Also I have now included in the diet Tetra Spirulina and plan to get a veggie clip and try some lettuce (which type is best?) and some shelled peas here and there. Try and broaden the diet a bit. Sylvar <No need to feed a fish while dumping all kinds of random medications in the tank. The filter bacteria are going to be flaky enough as it is. So lay off the food for a while. Also gives a chance for any water quality issues to subside. As/when you get to feeding greens, curly lettuce is best, red/iceberg lettuces the worst. Cheers, Neale.>

Re: Neal - Help My Goldfish Bandi (RMF, thoughts?)<<Mmm, no>>   2/11/09 From what it says on the box ( http://aquariumpharm.com/Products/Product.aspx?ProductID=60 ) the API Fungus Cure does in fact cure fin & tail rot. It says so on the box. I am a little confused. <Don't be confused. Reading through the ingredients. This product contains Acriflavine and Malachite Green ("Basic Green 4"). Both of these are anti-fungal medications. While Acriflavine has some antiseptic properties as well, it isn't an antibiotic as such, and isn't as effective for treating Finrot as a dedicated antibiotic or antibacterial medication. In other words, put aside the marketing, and go by the ingredients. This product is a good anti-fungal, but at best a mild anti-bacterial. Science is our friend!> At any rate, for now I am going to just change the water at 25% tomorrow once the meds are done running their course and add back the carbon to my filter system, and after things level out a bit will go with the suggestion of using Maracyn. <Sounds fine. But personally I wouldn't use carbon through any of this. Few benefits. Most medications will be metabolised (i.e., broken down) by the biological filter within 24 hours, and water changes will get rid of the rest. The risk with carbon is that you forget to remove it while treating, and end up removing the medications. I've done this myself more than once!> As to the hardness of the water when the fish was in LA it was much harder (about 225), but it is always at the same level (in both cities it stayed the same) which is 120. The ph has not changed much if at all since the 1st time I replaced 75% of the tank water to the last water change - it was only by .5 at best. The normal ph for the tank has been 7.1 - 7.5 nothing less or more. I was told that it should be at 7.5 so when I saw it at 7.1 I only added a little buffer up to bring it to 7.5 that's all. <A pH change of "0.5" doesn't seem much, but remember, the pH scale is exponential. pH 8 is ten times more basic than pH 7, and pH 9 one hundred times more basic than pH 7. So what seem like small changes can be significant. pH changes often cause "flashing" in fish, because their gills are irritated. Moreover, pH alters their blood chemistry, and this can, if severe, cause symptoms such as heavy breathing and skittishness.> The salt I had added to reduce stress (the fish has red veins on the tail and pectoral fins - I only used this because the aquarium shop said it would help that. I know in general they don't need salt. Was using this hurting? <A little salt won't do any harm, since Goldfish are very salt-tolerant by freshwater fish standards. But it's always worth remembering *why* you're adding stuff. What does salt do? When you ask people this, they spout all kinds of vague, unscientific nonsense about "increasing slime layers" and "reducing osmotic stress". Has any of this been tested? No. Salt was useful in the past because it was the lesser of two evils. Salt (by which I mean NaCl) reduces the toxicity of nitrite and nitrate, both of which were problems when people were using inefficient filters and avoided doing water changes. Those days have passed, and there's no now reason to have toxic levels of either nitrite or nitrate in any aquarium. Hence salt is, at best, redundant. It doesn't stabilise the pH and it certainly doesn't mimic the natural environment of freshwater fish. What it *is* good for is taking money from your pocket and putting it into the pockets of the salt manufacturers. So while I'm all for using salt as a specific therapy, e.g., for treating Ick/Whitespot, I'm absolutely against routinely adding it to freshwater aquaria.> I also did NOT think that the fish has any worms or flukes and was not clear as to why he suggested that other than assuming the flashing was from that. <I'm not clear either.> Both ammonia and chlorine levels are 0 and from what I can tell the gills look just fine. <OK.> And thank you Wet Web Media for all your help. I am doing the best I can to get as much info on helping this situation and you guys have been great! Thanks. Sylvar <Cheers, Neale.>

Re: Neal - Help My Goldfish Bandi    2/11/09 Got it! Thanks for the sound advice! I will keep you guys up to speed on things! And won't use the salt anymore. Nice to know about the ph too - I guess it is more important than I thought it being 7.1 one day and me needing to bump it up to 7.5 the next. <The thing with pH is that fish can adapt to a very wide range, often 6-8 without any problems. But what they can't stand are sudden changes. Slight changes over the weeks are fine, but the problems occur when we try to "fix things". For example, say your fish tank is normally at pH 8. You're away for a couple weeks, and you get back, and it's at pH 7. You think, Oh Dear!, my Guppies won't like that, so I'll repair the pH to where it should be. As it happens, the Guppies adjusted fine to the slow drop in pH even though it was now at a "bad place" for them in terms of preferences. But when you go an up the pH to 8, thinking that's their optimal range, the pH change is so sudden, it sickens them. This is why we always stress the important of hardness over pH, especially carbonate hardness. Aquarists often assume hard water is bad: but it's not! It's a blessing in disguise, because "liquid rock" like you get in London or LA is actually great for inhibiting pH changes. Once your fish have adjusted to the hard, basic water (which your retailer has done) then pH is something you never need to worry about ever again, assuming you're doing your water changes every week or two.> But in general the ph and hardness (which I guess as you put it goes hand in hand) is pretty much the same on each water change. But for now, I will just do the 25% and in about 5-7 days will do another 25%. <Cool.> As to the carbon, trust me at this point I don't think I will forget ANYTHING lol. I have a journal now of each and every thing I put in the tank and what the levels are. I also only used the carbon filter insert because that is what the filter system suggests to use. Sponge, Carbon and then Media. It is the AquaClear 70. <If you remember, so much the better. My memory is appalling; the family joke is that if I ever got dementia, no-one would notice.> I do have 1 more question. It is about the filter - is the 70gal filter too strong for the 30 gal tank? I normally keep it at the lowest setting and the current doesn't seem too strong...but I am curious. <The filter is likely fine. So long as the fish are being pressed against the sides of the tank, then the water current is acceptable. Go look at a river sometime. Then compare the water flow to your filter. Goldfish in particular are good swimmers and appreciate a bit of exercise; active swimming also keeps them physically strong and helps avoid problems with constipation. Sure, Fancy Goldfish are less capable swimmers than, say, Comets (the real Greyhounds of the Goldfish family) but you're more likely to cause problems with insufficient filtration than too much.> Thanks! Sylvar <Cheers, Neale.>

Re: Neal - Help My Goldfish Bandi    2/11/09 Great advice! Thanks Neale. And yeah that is pretty funny about what your family said. We will just hope that never happens ;0) (\ /) ( . .) C('')('') Sylvar <Happy to help. Indeed, no particular desire to have dementia. But in life, you have to take the laughs where you find them, even if the thought behind them isn't all that comforting. Cheers, Neale.>

Re: Neal - Help My Goldfish Bandi    2/11/09 hehe yeah I agree ;0) Sylvar <Then my work here is done. Good luck treating the fish! Neale.>

Re: Neale- Help My Goldfish Bandi (RMF, thoughts?) <<Nary a one additional.>> -- 02/12/09 Very odd, today I noticed a small dot of white fungus (cottony) almost floating like on the font of the face, by the eye and it seems the area in the front corner of the eye is irritated and also shows sign of a bit of white film of fungus (this too looks a bit cottony unlike it being "wax dipped" or film coated)there is another dot that looks about the same on the opposite side of the face. This one is not floating but is more attached to the side of the face. <Cotton = Fungus, so treat accordingly. Often occurs alongside Finrot. Some medications treat both; shop around in your region. Here in the UK, I recommend eSHa 2000.> I am about to do the 25% water change but is it possible that this now just comes up WITH treatment in the tank? <Used correctly, medications shouldn't cause any problems, though a Finrot medication may have little/no impact on Fungal infections.> Oh and there is NO other change in the white scales (the patch on the side) of the fish. There is also what almost looks like a skin tag (very tiny) which is red on the tip of the tail. Is this normal? <No, but wouldn't panic just yet. Worry about the other stuff.> I saw it before but forgot to mention it with all that is going on. Any suggestions? Sylvar <Nothing beyond what I've already said. Cheers, Neale.>

Re: Neal - Help My Goldfish Bandi (RMF, thoughts?) -- 02/12/09 So the treatment I just did (API Fungus Cure) would have no effect on this fungus? <I've forgotten where we're at. But in a nutshell, Fungus medication cures fungus, and fungus is the white fluffy stuff that looks like cotton wool. Fungus treatment won't (normally) have much impact on either Finrot or Mouth Fungus (that, despite the name, is bacterial).> I just got the Maracyn and will do that treatment next week. It says that it also cures fungus as well, so do you think that it would knock this out? <Maracyn does say that it can cure Fungal infections, but I don't really understand how. It's Erythromycin, and that's not really an anti-fungal medication so far as I know. I'd use it if nothing else was available, but in all honesty I'd sooner go for a Malachite green, Acriflavine type thing.> Or should I go with something else before I use the Maracyn? <I would, IF IT'S FUNGUS.> The white scales look totally different from this, this looks like fungus, I am still at a loss as to what the patch on the side of the fish is. A bacterial infection possibly or a fungus which is not "cottony" as most seem to be. <The two things can, do occur together. It's important to understand this. Both Fungus and Finrot are what we call opportunistic infections. Healthy fish are essentially immune, but if there's a break in the skin, both move into the wound and "eat" the decaying flesh. If the fish is weakened and it's immune system can't fight them off, both move from eating dead material to eating healthy material.> Here are my current levels: I did a water change at 7gallons (aprox 23%) without disturbing gravel Added 1 1/4 teaspoon Amquel, half cap of cycle....no salt (;-) ammonia 0 nitrite 0 nitrate 25 ph 7.5 alkalinity 140 hardness 120 Sylvar <Cheers, Neale.>

Re: Help My Goldfish Bandi (Maracyn Treatment Question/Airstone Needed?) 2/16/09 Should I be using an airstone along with my 70gal AquaClear filter? I am treating the fish wt Maracyn and there are all these bubbles in the tank and they are reminiscent of oil bubbles, it is quite strange looking. I have heard this can be an issue if they get into the gills of the fish. But I asked my LFS owner and he said it is fine and just that it's a sign the treatment is taking effect in the tank. Said to treat it with the 2nd dose of Maracyn (he said maybe Maracyn2 may be better for this fish due to the details I gave him - there is a small red dot on the belly and also what looks like a piece of Wen growing on the scale of the fish which looked odd to me!) and to call him tomorrow. I think I may bring the fish into the store to have him take a look. I also am including new photos taken today! Any suggestions? My water levels from yesterday are below: 2/14/09 11:08pm temp 60 degrees ph 7.5 140 Alk 120 hard nitrite 0 nitrate 30 ammonia 11:20pm - placed 2.5 packages of Maracyn to tank (aprox 26gallons in tank) 2/15/09 10:40pm Placed 2.5 packages of Maracyn to tank (aprox 26gallons in tank) (2nd dose) Sylvar <Hello again. It's always a good idea to add additional aeration when using medication. At the very least, it helps ensure good circulation and distribution of the medication in the tank. Your retailer is quite right that Maracyn 2 will work in situations where Maracyn doesn't, but please do finish the complete course of one before starting the other. The water chemistry seems fine to me, so I am hoping your goldfish gets well soon. Having found out how much fish medication costs, not to mention the stress levels involved for the keeper, I think you'll agree with us now that spending the extra money up front on a bigger (and therefore healthier) tank when keeping goldfish is money well spent. As/when things settle down, please do consider upgrading to something above 30 gallons, especially if you intend to keep more than one goldfish, as you should do. Good luck, Neale.>

Re: Help My Goldfish Bandi (Maracyn Treatment Question/Airstone Needed?) Treating Goldfish With Bloody Fins   2/16/08 Yeah I live in an apartment and they actually state on the lease no more than 25 gallon tanks, so I am already cheating with the 29 gallon tank I have. But I do plan on a 70 gallon once I move into a house. Which should be soon. I will then use this 29gallon as a hospital tank. Do you think the streaks of blood in the fins is from lack of oxygen and if I add an airstone that it should help rid the fish of the streaking? I just was not aware of the need for that with such a high powered filter system I already have in play. < Bloody streaks in fins usually is a symptom of a bacterial infection.> The treatment on the box says 5 days - the owner of the store said I should have probably just used the maracyn2 from the start, to do the treatment today (which I did) and call him tomorrow with an update, I assume I should just buy the maracyn2 anyhow, but should I use both (I know it says it is safe to do so, but I think I am over-doing it with all the meds over the last week+) and run the full 5 day course of Maracyn while starting the treatment of maracyn2 ? < These medications are different variations of erythromycin. Many different strains of bacteria have become resistant to this antibiotic so the second version may be better. The store owner probably has had experience with this medication before. You already have the Myacin. I would recommend following the recommendations on the package. If you don't see any improvement in a couple days then make the switch or go ahead and add the second version. This will have an effect on the biological filtration. Check for ammonia and nitrite spikes.-Chuck> (\ /) ( . .) C('')('') Sylvar

Re: Help My Goldfish Bandi - UPDATE -- 03/07/09 Update: My fish now has a tiny red hole on the white patch on it's flank. I bought some Aqua Prazi (Prazipro) and was going to start treatment for parasites since I have done both the API General Cure as well as the Maracyn and nothing has changed. <I would NOT do this... the hole is not likely to be parasitic... and further med. application is likely to just toxify the fish, system> The water is better and stable and I did not change out gravel *the fish still flashes a bit <This may well be just natural> which I am starting to think may be what has caused this white patch which is some type of lesion* <Yes> but can try doing just the marbles if that would be better. <No. Is not... marbles are too smooth... not enough surface area for useful bacteria culture> I have had a lot of info on changing the gravel and most say it is not necessary and not advised in a tank that has stable conditions due to the disruption of good bacteria. Any advice? <No... you understand already> I am actually thinking of sending out a culture of the fish and see exactly what the source of this issue is. My most current water levels: 3/1/09 - 7:30pm Moved tank from dresser to tank cabinet. Removed fish, placed in 1 gallon mini transfer tank. Removed all water (totaling 18.5 gallons) and replaced 15 gallons of tank water. Then placed 5 gallons of fresh treated (with Amquel & Cycle) water into tank. Brought ph from 7.3 to 7.5 with buffer up (tank ph was originally at 7.5) <I would NOT change the pH here... leave as is...> tested water with ammonia test kit as well as 5in1 test strips all levels were normal. Added fish to tank, replaced the 1 gallon from mini tank into main tank. ph 7.5 nitrate 25 <Too high... I'd look into adding more filtration... biological... perhaps a hang-on outside filter> nitrite 0 ammonia 0 alkalinity 150 hardness 120 60 degrees Attached is a photo from a few moments ago, you can see the white patch, but the hole (or cut which sure looks like a hole to me) is not visible. The only other shot I got of it is too out of focus. I will charge my camera and take more if need be. (\ /) ( . .) C('')('') Sylvar <Just "hang in there"... All will likely be fine. Bob Fenner>

Re: Help My Goldfish Bandi - UPDATE   3/9/09 Wow - I honestly swore that 70gal filter in a almost 30gallon tank with FOWR was fine. Everyone I spoke to (even some at WetWebMedia) said it was fine. I got the airstone to help with the oxygen. I just got it yesterday and am letting the tubing air out a couple days before I wash it and put it together. <Mmmm, how large is this goldfish? I am of the opinion that the "troubles" you have been observing are environmental... not pathogenic... and further, that "medicating" is harming more than any help here> I will read that link and won't do anything at this point except try to improve the water conditions and continue to expand the diet of Bandi. Thanks for helping me keep the last bit of my sanity and my poor fish from becoming totally toxic. (\ /) ( . .) C('')('') Sylvar <Okay. B>

Re: Help My Goldfish Bandi - UPDATE   3/9/09 And sorry I did not mean FOWL - I only have 1 fish and have standard gravel, not live rock. <Ahh, understood. B> My bad. However I do have 1 shell (I had about 4 but removed 3) which has been in the tank for about 1yr. (\ /) ( . .) C('')('') Sylvar

Re: Help My Goldfish Bandi - UPDATE   3/9/09 It is 1 Tigerhead Oranda - large. He is about 6.5 inches by about 2.5 wide. He's a big boy :0) (see photo). <Ah yes dear... I do fear that thirty gallons won't be sufficient to dilute its wastes... even with your good weekly water changes... I have three goldfish... about four inch body length, in a ninety... And they even get too messy to wait a week... I use Eheim Professionel (corr. spelling) canister filters... You might "get by" with adding redundant outside power filtration... but there has GOT to be ZERO ammonia and nitrite... and 10-20 ppm MAXIMUM nitrate at all times... Do you understand? B> (\ /) ( . .) C('')('') Sylvar

Re: Help My Goldfish Bandi - UPDATE   3/9/09 Wow...yep, I got it loud and clear. I am in an apartment and my current lease states no more than 25 gallons (I have a 29 gallon now) and I am in the process of moving but it will be a while before I get to another place, even there I fear I may run into the same issues as far as the lease stating maximum gallons. I will have to work out something and get a larger tank. My ammonia and nitrites have always been at 0 but I do know for sure that my nitrates have to be lower. I will get to work on that! <Mmm, if you can store some change-out water... in advance of next need... this would really help> Thanks Bob - you have given me the BEST info from all of the sources I have called upon. I really do appreciate it, I am going to do my best to keep this little (pun intended) guy in the best shape I can. He has come a long way and I want to make sure he has the best life possible. Even if I have to move! (\ /) ( . .) C('')('') Sylvar <Ahh, I see a bigger home for you and your sweet Bandi in the near future. Cheers, BobF>

Re: Help My Goldfish Bandi - UPDATE 3/12/2009
Hi Bob,
<SweetS>
I finally got my nitrate levels to 20 (Woohoo) and while I am still trying to get it down more, I think it is going well (seeing how it was 40 before - yikes!) I do have one question though; the alkalinity has dropped from about 120 (normally this is what it was from Dec till about 2 weeks ago (the last 2 water changes) I noted the drop) and is now between 110-115.
<No worries>
Now I have been adding Seachem buffer up (not much just about 1/4 tsp), and that works and does not bring the ph above 7.5 which normally it is but again, since the drop in alkalinity the ph is now at about 7.0 I know that boosting the ph too quick can be harmful but what about the alkalinity?
<I would leave both these alone... the change/vacillation is not a big deal. You are much more likely to cause troubles/harm by trying to modify... Just keep up with regular (likely weekly, which is what I do with my goldfish) water changes... if you can with pre-stored water>
At 1st the alkalinity was fine 120 - steady. Just last week though after the drop in ph I noticed a steady decline in the alkalinity.
<All natural... too-small, unbalanced (i.e. typical aquariums) are "reductive"... go acidic with time... Not a worry with regular water change-outs with some alkalinity, "decent" pH>
Is it safe to continue to add the buffer up and monitor?
<Again... I would not add buffer to the water you list>
Should I make sure it stays at 120 with a 7.5 ph or is the 110-115 alkalinity ok with the ph at 7.0?
<One last time... the latter>
I ask because the strips I am using (Mardel) say to add "buffer up plus" when at these levels.
<And get out of the "strip" business... Really... do invest in a simple colorimetric test kit set>
Oh and I tested my tap water and it is about 100 - 110 alkalinity and the ph is about 6.8 - 7.0 Is there a filter head for my faucet I can use that would help aid this process of keeping levels more normal?
<No>
Sorry if any of this is confusing :0) Here are my current levels:
3/11/09
ph 7.0
nitrate 20
nitrite 0
ammonia 0
alkalinity 100 - added 1/4 tsp. buffer up to bring it to 115-120
hardness 120
(\ /)
( . .)
C('')('')
Sylvar
<Isn't this discovery of what we "learned" in H.S. et al. chemistry, physics classes fascinating when it becomes "re-live" to our conscious? You're doing fine here. BobF>

Re: Help My Goldfish Bandi - UPDATE   3/13/09
Ok got it - I will continue to change out the water weekly and not add any buffer up. Can you recommend a good colorimetric test  it?
;... see WWM re. Most any will do here... API, Wardley's...>
And honestly, I did not go to H.S. and am just now getting my G.E.D. (and am learning all about chemistry and physics - at least what I did not already know) and a lot of this stuff is new, but I find that it is all useful information and I am more than willing to learn all I need to in order to keep the fish healthy and happy.
<Ah, good>
Thanks a bunch Bob!
(\ /)
( . .)
C
Sylvar
<Welcome. B> 

Re: Help My Goldfish Bandi - UPDATE 3/30/09
Bob,
<SS>
My poor fishy (Bandi) still has this huge white growth on it's flank. It looks about twice the size it was when this whole issue started (since Dec aprox) and I am really worried. My water parameters (from the 24th which is my most current read) are as follows:
3/24/09:  ph 7.2, nitrate 20
<... again, see WWM re... you want this lower>
nitrite 0, ammonia 0, alkalinity 115, hardness 120
Water change: 5 gallons (treated with Amquel, and 1 cap of cycle)
Attached are photos from today, which show the growth/patch on it's flank. What should I do?
(\ /)
( . .)
C('')('')
Sylvar
<Improve the water quality per the NO3... and hope... This definitely appears to be viral, or virally mediated... not much to do w/ such growths other than bettering environment, nutrition. B>

Re: Help My Goldfish Bandi - UPDATE...   4/1/09
I know, I keep doing water changes every 5-7 days. I have not gotten it lower than 20 (this IS on a TEST STRIP not kit so is not exact!) no matter what I do. I am not sure what else I can do -
<... is this a broken record? How many times have I referred you to reading re NO3?>
I can't get a larger tank! I guess I could change out the water (is 5 gallons enough per change? It is a 29gal tank but only has about 26gal of water if you add in the space at the top and the gravel) every 4 days. Also today I see that the "red dot" I spotted before on the white patch on Bandi's flank, may be some type of worm. I really can not tell 100% but it looks more prominent and seems to be protruding, which makes me think that it was there all along and I just thought it was a dot instead of it being a worm.
I do have PraziPro
<... stop. What does an Anthelminthic have to do with anything here?>
but when I look at the Mardel leaflet which says what to do in case of worms it says use CopperSafe. I have been told in the past NOT to use anything copper with freshwater fish.
Help!
<... Read, don't write. B>

Re: Help My Goldfish Bandi - Recovering From Dropsy   5/13/09
Thanks Bob!
<Welcome>
I did not want to give up either, I was just told it is highly unlikely that he would recover so I had to prepare for the worse. The algae was on the tank glass about 2 weeks ago but I cleaned it off, it was not much. I don't have the tank with much direct sunlight (which is the only time it seems to grow noticeable signs at least) but I will not scrub it off next time I see it.
And yes it is quite sterile now (but I do have in a Aquaclear system which has BioMax along with the sponge filter and carbon so that should help with the healthy bacteria no?)
<Maybe in time... See WWM re>
just because I have been doing the cichlid salt mix and thus removing water every few days (by the way I did the last salt mix water change yesterday, so now should I just do regular once a week water changes?
<Good>
Should I slowly turn the heat down and then remove the heater as well or leave it?
<I'd leave the heater, but turn down... oh I see this below... leave it where it's set>
The temp is at about 68 degrees right now!) on top of the 1st change of 75% which I did after the Maracyn 2 had been finished. So I have been doing a ton of water changes over the last 2 weeks.
<I would not change more than half at any given time... More harmful than helpful>
So the black specks on his scales and the lack of color on them (looks like someone knocked the gold dust off his scales on some of them) is from stress?
<Yes>
Anything I can do other than letting the tank get some good algae on it?
<No>
Also how long does that normally take?
<Weeks to months>
I know in LA where the tank got a decent amount of natural sunlight it was there within 1 week. Here in San Francisco, it can take 2-3 weeks.
<Add some live plant... Egeria/Elodea would be best... aka Anacharis>
Also the MetroMeds seems to be working well and he really likes it! I have about 1.5 weeks left of the 2 weeks I will be feeding him this. I really think these meds are what saved him for the most part.
<The recovery from apparent dropsical condition is remarkable. What is in "Metro Meds"?>
As soon as he started eating them (which took 2 or 3 days of feeding before he actually ate one pellet) he got better and better each day! I started him on them about 1 week after I started the Maracyn 2.
Anyhow, I am happy and a lot less stressed which is great for me, he is better which is fantastic and I am hopeful this will be a thing of the past and the help you guys at WWM have given me has been A-1. Thank you!
(\ /)
( . .)
C('')('')
Sylvar
<Again, very welcome. BobF>

Re: Help My Goldfish Bandi - Recovering From Dropsy 5/18/09
Today I woke up to find Bandi dead on his side at the bottom of the tank.
<I'm sorry to hear that.>
He was doing so well, I don't know what happened! I noticed he didn't eat yesterday and had some head jam (white stuff on his Wen) and had passed a bowl movement and was not really swimming around much other than to sit by his airstone, so I am not sure why he died but now I am not sure if I should just do a water change, continue to filter the tank etc. or totally clean out the tank and change out the substrate, plants etc. and start from scratch. Any advice?
<Depends what you want to do. There's a good argument for sterilizing the system, but you will of course need to cycle the tank once more before you add any new fish. Alternatively, you could sterilize the tank but leave the filter running in a bucket of aquarium water, to which you add a small pinch of food every 48 hours (if you don't "feed" the filter regularly, the bacteria will die. This second approach means you could add new fish as soon as you want (in which case stop feeding the filter) but the downside is that if there is some virus or parasite in the system, there's no guarantee you'll have eliminated it.  I am just happy he is in peace and didn't look like he suffered (he looks peaceful and at rest) much if at all, he will be missed. - Sylvar
<Good luck, and do keep reading on what Goldfish need. Cheers, Neale.>

Re: Help My Goldfish Bandi - Recovering From Dropsy      5/15/09
Cichlid yes, sorry. Dyslexia! So are you saying I should ONLY use the buffer up or use that AND the salt mix? Sorry, a little confused :)
<Just the buffer... and thoroughly mixed in with change water>